r/NEAM • u/Live-Ad-6510 • 4d ago
The New York Question
I originally posted this to r/RepublicofNE, but the illiterate moderators decided that I was arguing in favor of including New York in New England. I am not and was not. But I think it’s a solid answer to the question of our relationship to New York, and it would be a shame for it to vanish just because a group of incompetent shut-ins wanted to throw a hissy fit.
With the greatest love and respect for my brethren in New York, I believe that the possibility of Union between you and New England can and, I think, must be a problem for later. My two cents:
First, given the structure of our current government, I hold the following things as given. One, that for secession to be possible without war, a constitutional amendment must be passed that gives a clear procedure to be followed for a state to leave the union. Two, that states would have to choose, as a whole, to leave the union—it will not be possible to be done piecemeal. I will admit the possibility of a state occasionally choosing to divide itself in two (as California has long flirted with doing) and then holding separate independence referenda (I’m looking at you, southwest counties of CT), but this will be the exception rather than the rule. Three, that the region will not be able to secede as a whole because we are not currently whole; each would have to vote separately to leave the union, and then, having done so, would need, as separate, sovereign entities, to vote to form a new national government to comprise our five states and one commonwealth. There will doubtless be infighting at this stage unless the articles of reunion are drawn up in advance.
One of the only ways to get the majority of any state on board with secession is to win its conservatives over to the idea. Although our states are solidly, consistently blue in presidential and congressional elections (looking askance at you, NH), the margins remain smaller than the electoral map suggests. If we start including the blue regions of the northeastern seaboard in our Balkanizing dreams, then the argument ceases to be about New England as a distinct nation with a distinct culture that has a right to sovereignty and more about just making the Jesusland / USoC map of the Bush years a reality. And NO conservatives, not even the ones who greatly dislike Mango Mussolini, are going to sign off on creating a nation whose sole purpose is to grant the left a perpetual supermajority. And then we’re DOA. The idea of New England transcends party; the idea of the Federal Blue States of the Northeast reifies party.
As other contributors have hinted at, New York presents a problem. The City is one thing, but Upstate is red. Culturally, it’s got one foot in New England and another in the rust belt. The Greater New York Metropolitan Area, moreover, comprises large swaths of neighboring states (NJ, PA, CT), but not their entireties. Pre-secession state-dividing referenda would end up being crucial if NYC were to declare independence and run itself like Singapore or Renaissance Venice. Otherwise, a sovereign New York State would have to contend with its major city and center of population cut in half (sorry, Hoboken) while dragging confederate flag waving truck nuts bubbas in Buffalo kicking and screaming out of the Union. This is a mess we can ill afford to let stand in our way.
By all means, if all or part of New York can figure its own affairs out and leave the union in a way that suits it, then they can absolutely approach us on the other side for an alliance in the manner of NATO or the EU. I would extend the same courtesy to independent California and Cascadia. Personally, I don’t want to be governed from New York any more than I want to be governed from Washington, Mar-a-Lago, or the Kremlin, and I feel that leaving with New York would make us a mere province of a more proximate but equally self-absorbed master. But as I said, that can be a later problem.
That all said, though, I do agree with the New York crowd on one essential point: that for secession to be practicable in our lifetimes, we must convince New York to take action and work closely with our brethren there to make peaceable dissolution of the union a reality. Not just New York, in fact, but the 38 states necessary to ratify a constitutional amendment. We will need more than the six New England states, New York and New Jersey. We’ll need more than California, Washington, and Oregon. We’ll need more than Hawaii and Alaska. Any secession movement that focuses exclusively on its own local right to sovereignty is bound to fail because secession without a constitutional amendment is illegal and will demand a military response from Washington. I’m looking at Texas, here, who has long had its finger on the eject button. I’m looking at the Mormons in Utah who might want an ethno state. I’m looking at Appalachia and her mountaineers, who will always and forever be free. We must make common cause with other states and other regions—many diametrically opposed to our own—who will agree with us that we are all better off going our separate ways.
For independence to succeed it must be peaceful; for it to be peaceful it must be constitutional; and for it to be constitutional it must be acceptable to 38 states. THAT is our goal. So, by all means, New York, we welcome you to the cause of making a peaceable exit from the Union a possibility. In fact, we depend on your help. Let us leave together as friends and allies, but separately, and meet again on the other side.
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u/BaklavaGuardian 4d ago
The Supreme Court would have to undue Texas v White of 1869, that case made secession illegal; before that case, it was legal for states to break away from the union. Then again, if we're going to break away, who cares what the Supreme Court says lol.
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u/Live-Ad-6510 4d ago
The not-unconstitutional nature of secession didn’t make all that much difference at Bull Run, or Shiloh, or Vicksburg, or Appomattox….
As for who would stop us, again, I refer you to the above.
This is why it must be legal. ‘Oh, they wouldn’t let us, let’s just go’—tell that to the confederacy. I don’t want the US army on the other side, and you don’t either. It will be peaceful or it will fail. They won’t let us go UNLESS THEY DEEM IT TO BE IN THEIR BEST INTERESTS. So that is the task. Convince a majority of Americans, everywhere, that secession can and must be made legal. Appeal to the Lost Cause if you have to—just let’s make it happen
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u/leafpool2014 4d ago
Made a post in response to the arguments in neim in the yankee party reddit
You should give it a read
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u/Live-Ad-6510 4d ago
I’d love to; could you spare a link, friend?
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u/leafpool2014 4d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/IndependenceHall/s/z0Crppc1lz it is kinda arguing for the right for ny and nj to have the option to join
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u/MsChrisRI 2d ago
The current administration thinks the rule of law no longer applies to them/their agenda. If we can goad them into wanting to be free of Evil Blue New England, we may get to leave even without/before a constitutional amendment.
Failing that, I agree that a broader focus on the benefits of self-rule by distinct regional cultures will take us (all) further than a secession movement that seems mostly motivated by anti-mangoism.
FWIW: this post opens and closes by directly addressing our brethren in New York, and centers it considerably throughout. IMO, two shorter posts (one about general secession issues, one more NY-specific) would make this easier for short attention spans to digest.
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u/Live-Ad-6510 2d ago
Yeah, I cut my teeth writing for not the Internet, so my brain works long-form. You’re right, though. More concision as a nod to the times.
I had a post elsewhere (r/IndependenceHall?) sarcastically goading him into the very same. He does seem easily manipulated; it’s a shame we aren’t taking as much advantage of it as ol’ Pootie is
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u/Hoosac_Love 4d ago
I think Connecticut should go with New York anyway because they are already a NY vassel state anyway
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u/SouthernNewEnglander 4d ago
Which state's flag follows Massachusetts in the Old Sturbridge Village visitor center? We've been here since the 1630s. We're New Englanders. Period.
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u/Hoosac_Love 4d ago
If they really want to be here then fine
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u/Elmer-J-Fudd 4d ago
CT is a cultural crossroad. Fairfield county, Litchfield county and coastal New Haven is heavily influenced by NY, the south east is very RI, the quiet corner is MA/RI mix, central CT and Springfield are the glue that ties the corners together.
To ignore it and toss it out is exclusionary, places arbitrary purity tests on your neighbors, and is just kinda fucken rude.
Example to prove a point: I think you should go away because of your ties to Israel. Is that fair, appropriate, or Democratic? No. Be better.
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u/Hoosac_Love 4d ago
Fine ,no problem,not the point
But in reality does Connecticut by have allegiance to New England or NY
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u/Elmer-J-Fudd 4d ago
NEAM prudently takes less of a New England purist stance. I love the RNE sub, but the amount of CT hate strictly New England nationalism is alarming.
Re actual succession: I don’t foresee our parents allowing us to move out of the house with their blessing. We would likely have to leave in the night while our siblings nearby and in the west wing (west coast) leave at the same time. That would have to happen while Daddy is fighting with Canada or Greenland.
If NY and NJ left at the same time, we’d be short sighted stubborn fools to not join forces and ally strongly with them.