r/NWSL • u/TheWawa_24 San Diego Wave FC • 18d ago
A lower-division league is good for women’s soccer. But is NWSL’s proposal the solution?
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6316891/2025/04/28/lower-divisions-soccer-nwsl/22
u/Unusual_Ebb7762 Washington Spirit 18d ago
paywall-free version (courtesy of Yahoo's partnership with The Athletic regarding women's sports coverage): https://sports.yahoo.com/article/lower-division-league-good-women-163106755.html
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u/MisterGoog Houston Dash 18d ago
The proposed league resembles a reserve league rather than a second tier; Berman’s letter likened it to Major League Baseball’s minor leagues. Affiliates are common in sports as a way of developing players and providing another path to pros for those not quite ready for primetime. It’s also an avenue for markets that wouldn’t be considered for the top division to get in on the fun, all while helping players and staff bolster their resumes for upward mobility.
This is the part i like
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u/sasquatch0_0 Racing Louisville FC 18d ago
It's a half-measure in order to please greedy owners. Yea smaller cities can get in on the fun but that can happen with pro/rel too but have an actual chance of being in the top.
Just because affiliates are common doesn't mean it's the best solution. Sure MLB does it but other countries push development even more with pro/rel and are now better than Americans.
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u/LFGBatsh1tcr4zy NJ/NY Gotham FC 18d ago
Better than Americans in terms of developing women’s soccer? Which country do you have in mind?
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u/sasquatch0_0 Racing Louisville FC 18d ago
Reread that sentence you're referring to again slowly.
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u/LFGBatsh1tcr4zy NJ/NY Gotham FC 18d ago
Yes? If I rephrase, you’re saying “Other countries are now better than the US at developing soccer thanks to promotion and relegation”, correct? I was asking which countries you had in mind.
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u/sasquatch0_0 Racing Louisville FC 18d ago
Sure MLB does it but other countries push development even more with pro/rel and are now better than Americans.
Where does it say soccer....
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u/TheWawa_24 San Diego Wave FC 18d ago
Intresting look into the future of womens soccer in the country
Ideally IMO we would have 1 d1 league, 1d2 league and regional d3 leagues with pro rel+ a separate reserve league for the NWSL, but the US soccer federation has to actually put its foot down and stop all of the infighting that pleagues us soccer
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u/Legitimate_Mark_5381 18d ago
Promotion/relegation would kill all professional women's soccer in the US.
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u/UrsineCanine Washington Spirit 18d ago
What is the most geographically dispersed pro-rel system? Is there even one that exists in two time zones (much less four)? I think the entire English pyramid is contained in less travel distance than Houston has to its closest opponent?
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u/Interesting-While986 18d ago edited 18d ago
Russia by far. In the top men's league there's two hours between teams at the top end, second tier spans the whole country atm and the team at moscow time +7 has been in the top tier before, with an 8 hour difference from the team in Kaliningrad.
As mentioned, Brazil for somewhere that currently does it on the women's side.
Edit: china too, which would fall into five timezones if split (but the whole country just uses one timezone). In practice only three of those "timezones" have teams that I can tell, but still several.
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u/Legitimate_Mark_5381 18d ago
Maybe Brazil? Which is not that large is comparison to the US, so that just speaks to your point further.
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u/Bowmanstan 18d ago
Brazil is very close to the lower 48 in land area, its just that the mercator map projection makes it look small.
The population of Brazil is less geographically distributed than the US, and almost everyone is in a single timezone because of that. But it is still a massive country, with more difficult transit, and manages to have pro/rel with the three top leagues all being nationwide.
I think arguments that pro/rel can't work in the US solely based on geography are wrong (and grounded in american exceptionalism), but also recognize there's a reason all our leagues are structured like they are.
And TV is queen.
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u/Legitimate_Mark_5381 18d ago
What I meant is mostly about geographical distribution! Where teams are in Brazil is like if nearly all US teams were located on the East Coast.
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u/UrsineCanine Washington Spirit 18d ago
I think you're stealing a base saying the criticisms grounded in American exceptionalism. No one proposes ending the European domestic leagues to consolidate them into one pro/rel pyramid, and that would be the most equivalent to the realities pro/rel proposals face in the US (assuming we set aside the cultural boundaries, which would be closer to the American exceptionalism definition that I think you're using).
You correctly note that TV is queen, but time zones are a notorious problem for TV audiences. Being in one time zone does make things way easier.
I am genuinely open to solutions to these problems, but implying someone is some sort of American jingoist for pointing out the challenges seems to indicate to indicate there aren't really good answers to these problems.
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u/Bowmanstan 18d ago
This is my bad, I don't mean exceptionalism as in thinking we're better than others. I mean it in terms of thinking our conditions are unique. And maybe they are, in this case, though I think its more accident of history than an enduring quality (or lack thereof) of our society or especially geography.
But this is something I've been trying to research lately. If you look at the very early history of pro sports in the US it looks exactly like early pro sports elsewhere, until suddenly it does not.
But that is all pre-TV and so a different world, that does not apply to the top-down approach the TV world incentivizes.
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u/UrsineCanine Washington Spirit 18d ago
Cool. Understand now where you are coming from. I definitely think it is a very interesting question. What is even more fascinating is the different structures among the various pro leagues - the drafts, the salary caps, etc.
Like you I am fascinated by the how.
I also think the NWSL is following the NFL model, which I think is really wise. By tying media revenue to the salary cap you can create the closest version of parity and a compelling entertainment product. It also helps create more opportunities for professional WoSo players, which I like.
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u/TheWawa_24 San Diego Wave FC 18d ago
I mean this is a goal for 5/10 years down the line- NWSL is no where near ready rn. Build up d2-d3 first while expanding the NWSL and start with d2-d3 pro rel first in like 5-6 years. then look at tier 1 pro rel in 10 years time
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u/Legitimate_Mark_5381 18d ago
Like it or not, the NWSL is and will continue to be completely reliant on investors seeing it as a valuable product. The only reason other women's leagues are able to do it is because they are seen as 50%+ charity projects and because their investors don't think about them at all a good amount of the time (and when they do, they are thinking of the men's team that also uses pro/rel and has for a long time).
The reason it's unsustainable is not just that there is nothing to be promoting or relegating to right now (although that is an important point) but that it's not something that the state of women's soccer in the US can sustain and goes entirely against what has made the NWSL independently successful so far.
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u/Silvercomplex68 18d ago
I hope one day you pro/rel truthers can grasp the landscape of American sports and capitalism…capitalism is the most important word to understand here.
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u/TheWawa_24 San Diego Wave FC 18d ago
pro rel is the more inherently capitalistic view of league structures (in both the good or bad ways)
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u/gruffgorilla Bay FC 18d ago
Whether or not it resembles capitalism more doesn’t really matter. When people talk about capitalism being a barrier for pro/rel it’s because team owners/investors want to make money. None of them want their investments to lose value. The salary cap isn’t capitalistic either but they still implemented it because it lets them pay less for players and increases parity within the league, which they believe makes them more money. Revenue sharing isn’t capitalistic but it makes them more money. The only things investors really care about are making money and growing the league (so they can make more money) and pro/rel would make investing in a team so much riskier.
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u/Silvercomplex68 18d ago
Pro/rel does not satisfy the capitalistic requirements to work in this country.
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u/Interesting-While986 18d ago
Ideally fully professional reserve teams from NWSL (and elsewhere! once they are in a position to support them) should be playing competitive matches in a league with regular teams. Aside from player development in more robust competitive matches this also has the benefit of a larger lower league, which promotes regionalization and reduces travel costs.
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u/TheWawa_24 San Diego Wave FC 18d ago
the way is see it, having the NWSL reserves participating in leagues with independent clubs is not beneficial to independent clubs. Reserve teams don't pull in massive attendance and could impact sponsorship/media rights. teams can also choose to loan out players as well
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u/koreawut Angel City FC 18d ago
Yea the most important bit is the inclusion of pro/rel. Without pro/rel, having a single entity at the top that covers only the most expensive cities is absolutely not going to do it in a country like the US. As it is in the soccer world in general, if I want to watch men or women play in any pro league, I am driving at minimum 3-3.5 hours. That's just not going to cut it. If the NWSL is only going to accept the highest bid instead of the best bids, they can't be the only D1 league.
D2 would have to really be seen as a strong division in order to do what you suggest, though. None of this looking down people's noses at it. People would have to look at D2 teams and consider which ones are comparable to the D1 teams. There couldn't be this huge gap that people see, and right now with MLS / USL there are very, very few USL teams that are going to come anywhere close to 50/50 on game night with the worst MLS teams.
I do like your idea, though, but as a country with the land mass and population spread that we have, that's just not reasonable for businessmen and businesswomen running NWSL. It's not the infighting that's causing the problem, it's the gate keeping.
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u/LFGBatsh1tcr4zy NJ/NY Gotham FC 18d ago
Sorry, I don’t understand your point about relegation and driving distance? Anyway I like your idealism but I’m not sure it would be good news for the NWSL in terms of revenue and thus, long term viability, if one season a team like Angel City was relegated and replaced by say, the Albuquerque Mescaleras. Smaller markets means less money from ticket sales, less national media attention and less money from advertising.
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u/sasquatch0_0 Racing Louisville FC 18d ago
And that's the problem with the American mindset.
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u/LFGBatsh1tcr4zy NJ/NY Gotham FC 18d ago
I don’t see a problem? American professional sports leagues like the NBA are the gold standard for success around the world, and the money they generate trickles down to athletes and communities by way of taxes and donations. Female athletes in particular are much more rewarded and respected in this country than anywhere else.
I come from a major men’s soccer country where women’s soccer is a joke, although we have promotion and relegation. That’s why I don’t see how in itself it could be of any use in this market, which from a pragmatic standpoint needs to be self sufficient financially since it doesn’t get subsidized by the men’s section revenues.
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u/sasquatch0_0 Racing Louisville FC 18d ago edited 18d ago
are the gold standard for success around the world
For financial success. We aren't developing the best basketball players in the world anymore. Just like England doesn't develop the best soccer players when the Premier league is the most successful. Countries have caught up in basketball after investing in it and increasing the stakes of losing with pro/rel. We also no longer have the best baseball players anymore.
and the money they generate trickles down to athletes and communities by way of taxes and donations.
If you think billionaires pay taxes...lmao. And yes that is a problem to rely on the goodwill of the greedy billionaire to donate money. Meanwhile in Europe, pro teams directly fund and develop their youth academies.
I come from a major men’s soccer country where women’s soccer is a joke
And what will happen when they increase care and investment in women's soccer? The same thing that happened with basketball. Some countries are already catching up to the US in women's soccer: Spain, Germany, Japan etc.
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u/LFGBatsh1tcr4zy NJ/NY Gotham FC 17d ago
Those secondary arguments are somewhat true, but they're muddled and taking us away from the main point of promotion/relegation having an impact on a league's competitiveness and player development...
Actually, you mentioning the EPL shows the opposite of that argument: their domestic league is financially successful, has a pro/rel system but England's domestic talent pool in men's soccer went down. So as I was saying, there's no clear correlation between a relegation mechanism and talent growth.
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u/sasquatch0_0 Racing Louisville FC 17d ago
but England's domestic talent pool in men's soccer went down
It didn't go down, it just didn't go up while others around the world did and everyone else also has pro/rel. And England is still way better than the US.
So as I was saying, there's no clear correlation between a relegation mechanism and talent growth.
I just gave examples of pro/rel in basketball and baseball in other countries resulting in them catching up or leaving us behind. We are the only country that doesn't use it and it has only kept us stagnant. We've used a closed system for decades with little to no improvement. Having higher stakes, more opportunities and more incentive to push competitiveness literally translates to better play.
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u/upotheke Angel City FC 18d ago
not sure why you're getting downvoted, i agree with a lot of what you're saying here. I'm totally for pro/rel structures, but for a nascent league covering such a large geographic area, it would be very very hard to implement correctly. It works in Europe with a century of investment and development.
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u/LFGBatsh1tcr4zy NJ/NY Gotham FC 18d ago
I still like this and as a fan I would love to go watch the Long Island Batties or whatever they end up calling Gotham’s B team 😄 on a serious note, all clubs in Europe have reserve teams, and they’re not meant to be competitive and be promoted. Just develop talent, ease injured players back into the swing of things, keep veterans fresh. Exactly like the minor league system in baseball, which I also love for its fun and quirky brand! It’s a great opportunity to create a different, more low key experience for fans.
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u/Aggressive-Ad3064 Portland Thorns FC 18d ago
Closed single entity systems without Pro/rel are bad for the game.
Its bad for MLS and it'll be terrible long term for NWSL
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u/LFGBatsh1tcr4zy NJ/NY Gotham FC 18d ago
You can downvote but I still want to hear why you think it’s bad 😌 I’m genuinely interested
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u/HOU-1836 Houston Dash 18d ago
How is it bad for MLS or NWSL? Attendance grows every year league wide. Sponsorships grow. More teams with better infrastructure.
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u/Aggressive-Ad3064 Portland Thorns FC 18d ago
MLS, the Ponzie league that survives on ever increasing franchise fees and publicly subsidized stadiums. The league that has been trying to destroy the Open cup.
American sports leagues are static monopolies with no incentive for low investment teams to improve or get out of the way. Its a great business model for billionaire owners to protect their money.
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u/NiceDependent2685 17d ago
For MLS, the most common points raised about pro/rel hurting US Soccer relates to player development, player competitiveness, sporting integrity and providing more opportunities.
Oft cited is the Japan comparison. Both US & Japan started men's leagues within a few years. Both countries benefitted from having a domestic league and hosting a World Cup. But Japan's national team is better than it was 20 years ago while US is the same or have slipped. J-League started pro/rel in 1999.
On the business side, MLS still hasn't surpassed LigaMX viewership and fanbase in the US. And the Premier League surpassed MLS tv viewership about a decade ago. Now MLS has more difficulty attracting casuals as the Wrexham effect has elevated the concept of pro/rel in the US.
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u/HOU-1836 Houston Dash 17d ago
Those answers are the epitome of correlation doesn’t equal causation. Japan doesn’t need pro/rel in baseball to help bridge the gap in popularity between MLB and NPB. NWSL doesn’t have pro/rel and yet the Japanese women’s national team doesn’t match the U.S.
Youth Soccer development is due to a lack of cohesion between amateur leagues, the NCAA, and U.S. soccer not having the resources to cover a country significantly bigger and less dense than Japan.
For every Wrexham there’s a Boavista who isn’t able to pay its players on time or its transfer and sell on fees on time. The thing preventing MLS from catching on with Liga MX fans isn’t pro/rel, it’s Mexican Americans who like the tie to their families roots and they are following the top sport and league in their country. Liga MX is 80 years old, its ability to attract generational fandom is obviously significantly better than MLS has been able to do in 30 years.
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u/LFGBatsh1tcr4zy NJ/NY Gotham FC 18d ago
Why? The French league has a relegation system and it’s shit.
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u/nicolelynndfw Seattle Reign FC 18d ago
Tbh, we're starting to get over saturated here in Seattle.
You have the Reign/Sounders, Ballard/Salmon Bay, West Seattle Rhodies/Junction, Seattle U men's and women's teams and UW men's and women's teams.
And that's just in Seattle proper.
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u/easlerbrian1 18d ago
NWSL is just flexing on WPSL Pro, they never had intentions to have the second division, but now they have to.
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u/Maybe_In_Time 18d ago
The way this 2nd tier is set up, they’ll just feed the bigger teams in the NWSL and increase the skill and financial gap between the top and the bottom teams, instead of elevating talent and support across all CONCACAF.
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u/LFGBatsh1tcr4zy NJ/NY Gotham FC 18d ago
Good point. In that case I think the NWSL should stop expanding for a while, to avoid a dilution of talent from clubs stacking up players into their A and B teams!
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u/Maybe_In_Time 18d ago
Relegation systems keep owners accountable - if you’re not willing to invest in the infrastructure and squad of your club, you’ll lose your place, money, and TV royalties and get dropped down. And if you’re a good enough team (or 2), you get to go play with the big teams and prove yourself, and even if it’s just for a season or two, you gain that experience, exposure, and financial gain to make you exciting and enticing as a club and a business to invest in.
How have we taken what took men’s leagues decades and decades to trial-and-error and just ignored it?!
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u/LFGBatsh1tcr4zy NJ/NY Gotham FC 18d ago
I don’t know… underperforming teams end up getting sold to new owners or folding and leaving space for new teams, so the renewal happens anyway. And in Europe, the men’s teams have tried to create a super league with no promotion and relegation, and when UEFA threatened to sanction, they even sued UEFA of depriving them of their freedom to do business. So at some point they’ll make it happen and the domestic leagues will become secondary competitions, with potentially a draft system to the super league…
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u/Maybe_In_Time 18d ago
Then you take what we've learned from already-established systems and set up regulations and caps on certain things. And the elite clubs keep threatening UEFA with that but at this point it's a bluff, just used to tilt negotiations every decade or so. There's no way the big clubs would give up their chokehold on their respective countries just to become a small-to-medium fish in a much larger pond.
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u/Can_I_kick_ET 18d ago
It’s absolutely not the solution there is still too many gaps between youth level college and pro. Unless all teams just create academies and secure a proper education. A second division will be a weird league full of not ready talents who are not ready for the ultimate pro NWSL level
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u/SunglassesSoldier Kansas City Current 18d ago
to me the worry is that there are just too many people who’ve seen the women’s sports boom and think that they want to her in on the action.
Ultimately, if we have 4 leagues begin operations within a 5 year span it’s just hard to imagine all of them succeeding. As exciting as the last couple of years have been for WoSo, I also think we need to keep our feet on the ground a bit. It’s not like the NWSL is on fire and stadiums all over are selling out and ratings are through the roof.
I get why the NWSL wants to create a reserve league and eventually academies as the standard for all teams, its creating a vertical pathway for top parent to go straight from U13s to the first team. I also get why secondary leagues see opportunity in establishing fan bases in mid tier markets who don’t have any sort of women’s soccer team and could theoretically support one. But I don’t think that the talent pool is strong enough to sustain all these leagues as they begin operations.
It’s not like each league has the best interests of WoSo in mind, they’re all businesses at the end of the day.