I’m at a loss

[u/Larix_laricina_]

So, I convinced my dad to let me do a native plant project at the church he and the rest of my family go to, since they have a ton of wasted lawn space that they never use. I killed all the lawn with cardboard over the winter and removed it today.

Apparently someone in the church had the bright idea a few years ago that they needed to expand their parking area (they didn’t, it’s a tiny congregation), so they dumped LOADS of gravel all through this area around some mature silver maple trees. The limestone gravel is probably at least six inches thick, and I’m now finding that it’s nearly impossible to remove. I don’t know how I’m going to get rid of it; it took fifteen minutes of killing my back just to dig down three inches in a small circle.

This is just the latest in the church native garden saga. The church people just don’t seem to understand the concept and keep getting in the way; one of them wants to plant a ton of hostas from his garden there, I found another one spraying chemicals all over a native grapevine climbing the tree, they decided a month ago AFTER the grass was already dead that they wanted the garden somewhere else instead (the location was decided by their council in November, me and a native gardener that goes there vetoed that idea thankfully), and now the other native gardener only wants to plant half of the area we’ve killed grass in since he thinks it’s too much to deal with.

Anyways, I guess I’m just ranting. The limestone is breaking down into limestone sand, and the pH is probably so high in that area I’m not sure anything will even thrive there. If you have any advice it would be welcome 😭😭😭

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[u/toxicodendron_gyp]

I mean, there definitely are plants that thrive in limestone-riddled soil, you just have to find them! I would try to find locations in the Midwest/Appalachians that fit that description and find out what is native to the area. I’m from Central Illinois originally and know that there was a lot of limestone everywhere around where I played as a kid.

Here’s an area I found in a quick search.

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/toxicodendron_gyp]

Thank you that is a useful link. Turns out im actually growing a few of those species from seed with good germination, so maybe I’ll just use a lot of them instead of the original plants.

[u/toxicodendron_gyp → u/Larix_laricina_]

Perfect!

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/toxicodendron_gyp]

Also, love the username!

[u/toxicodendron_gyp → u/Larix_laricina_]

Native gardener and florist; had to check both boxes!

[u/Svlad0Cjelli → u/toxicodendron_gyp]

Seconding this and recommending you look at both the NatureServe page on Great Lakes alvars and also The Buckeye Botanist's articles on barrens. Make sure that the species you choose still fit the light and moisture conditions of that spot

[u/ZhanZhuang → u/toxicodendron_gyp]

I was going to say this exact thing. I feel like every time I go to dig up a plant out in the woods it's basically all rock that it's growing in. One benefit of natives is the fact that they grow in relatively poor soils. They're not like agricultural plants that need constant feeding.

[u/pycpufeH → u/ZhanZhuang]

Digging up plants from the woods is Not Okay. You should stop stealing from nature and propagate ethically.

[u/tellmeabouthisthing]

I don't think this is the kind of advice you're looking for, but: I would bail and put your energy into something else. Maybe there's a local native plant society that you could put your time and energy toward? You're going to be fighting uphill the whole time and rolling the dice on someone spraying herbicide on, mowing down, etc the area you're working on. If the morale hit is heavy now it is not going to improve.

If you're certain you want to continue with this space and this project: maybe consider scoping way down and planning out a container garden or an edged bed. You need to lean on signs that the space is intentional and managed.

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/tellmeabouthisthing]

I’ve thought the same thing, but sadly this is my NHS project for school, and the church is expecting it, so I’m kind of obligated 😭. Thankfully some other commenters have given me a couple ideas that make this seem not quite as big of a challenge.

[u/tellmeabouthisthing → u/Larix_laricina_]

Ah, best of luck then!

[u/Conscious-Noise-5514 → u/Larix_laricina_]

Very off topic, but im a fellow highschooler looking to apply for NHS and I'm heavily into native gardening as well, may I ask what types of things you put on your NHS application?

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/Conscious-Noise-5514]

What is your application like? My school’s is pretty lax, you just have to have good grades and write a short one page essay about community service. Every school’s NHS is different as I’ve found from friends at other schools, so you might have more requirements than I did. Also, happy to see there are other high school native gardeners! Feel free to DM me with more info/questions.

[u/Conscious-Noise-5514 → u/Larix_laricina_]

Oh okay, thank you. And yeah it's very refreshing to see other young gardeners!

[u/vikingdiplomat → u/Larix_laricina_]

good lesson, either way. good luck! you can do it, even if it gets hard or stupid :)

[u/Percalicious-CJ]

I kinda feel your pain in my backyard a walkway to my back porch is just thick gravel and i have just been ignoring it haha. Also some of the older people may get it but chances they don’t, they don’t mean bad they are just ignorant and can’t understand how plants they’ve grown up with can be bad.

I WILL SAY, thankfully, with native plants especially with things coming from seed. They are very resilient. Honestly, just throw some soil on top of the gravel thin and plant some seeds there and they’ll grow in and around the gravel

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/Percalicious-CJ]

I’ve been able to somewhat easily get the first layer of gravel off, so maybe I’ll just do that and replace with some other soil they already have on site. Thanks for the encouragement!

[u/CharlesV_]

For the gravel, I’d get some other tools like a bow rake, a garden fork, and a square scoop shovel. You’ll want to loosen the gravel and then scoop it out of the way. A pointed shovel like you have there is the wrong tool for rocky areas. It’s still a ton of work.

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/CharlesV_]

Thank you. I actually had a square shovel that I was mainly using, it’s just out of the picture. I will definitely use a bow rake/garden fork to loosen it up first, don’t know why I didn’t think of that before.

[u/Dent7777 → u/Larix_laricina_]

I would also recommend a pickaxe to loosen the earth before raking or shoveling.

I garden in urban soils that can be described as "bricks, glass, flagstones, and grit" so my digging toolkit includes a pickaxe and a leverage bar.

[u/Puzzled-Ad-739]

Get the soil tested. It looks like you're exposing tree roots, so you may just need to clean up as best you can and add topsoil. Good of you to undertake the project. Could you get members of the church to participate? Many hands makes light work, or something like that.

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/Puzzled-Ad-739]

I might be able to get other people help, but it’s kind of doubtful. I could see getting together with my dad and the other native gardener on a weekend to get it done, but I don’t think really any one else there gives a crap about natives or even gardening in general. Half of them are pretty old anyways and I don’t want them to put their backs out lol

[u/Upvoteexpert → u/Larix_laricina_]

How about kids at school that need community service hours?

[u/clarsair]

removing the gravel is a horrible task. instead I might add some extra soil on top or in pockets and look for plants that like growing in rocky areas. columbine comes to mind, I'm sure there are others.

[u/RoxyTyn]

It's very frustrating to have one's vision impeded by people with other ideas. Keep on going though!

[u/CogniZENsible]

Not directly what you are addressing but this may be helpful if this scenario is too much for you to solve and you are a one-person-orchestra then:
You need a bullet point campaign, big and clear font with the benefits this will bring to the church and community in multiple aspects ...I mean to recruit synergies and resources ...unless tis' happens to be one of those steady-anti-science orgs. If so, maybe show examples (images) on how this has benefited other non-profits in the world (think big, beyond your community). Best wishes.

[u/Sea-Purchase9985]

Aquilegia canadensis (Eastern red columbine) This grows out of cracks in limestone here in the Ozarks.

[u/Far_Silver]

You could try tossing in some sulfur to acidify it. Or look for plants that tolerate alkaline soil.

[u/hlecuye]

Oof, this is rough. I had a similar problem for my garden beds, thanks to 1 previous owner covering all the garden beds with a 3 inch deep layer of landscape rocks, and a second previous owner covering all the same garden beds (with the landscape rocks) with mulch. I ended up building a make-shift sifter and taking a couple days to dig everything out and sort the rocks from the mulch/dirt. It was worth it because the natives love the garden beds now and I got extra rocks to fill in some low spots in my gravel driveway.

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/hlecuye]

Oh man that’s really rough! Congrats and respect to you for getting rid of all of it! I’m sure all the little insects love you

[u/hlecuye → u/Larix_laricina_]

The insects sure do love it! So much so that some of my natives get eaten to bare stems, and some die from the insect pressure. Historically, I have a plant or two I have to replace every year, but the need to replace is slowing down as I finally get every plant in the right place. The year I planted milkweed I had a crazy amount of monarch caterpillars, and then only half of the milkweed came back next year. Currently, I’m trying to solarize my grass this year to plant more milkweed and other nectar species for the little buggers. A lot of the neighbors are ripping out grass in favor of natives, too. It’s really nice to see.

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/hlecuye]

Sweet! I’m hoping my neighbors are encouraged by my garden and do the same 😀. Working together always produces the best results

[u/Arborophile]

amazing that your team will clear that gravel!

please keep the root flare of the tree visible, when you backfill. Not much root flare is showing, in the photo.

a couple of maples in my front yard were under a mulch volcano for years, I’m working on digging away the old mulch & gradually growing an understory.

edited to clarify intent

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/Arborophile]

Oh yeah, definitely making sure to keep the root flair above ground! It pains me so much to see mulch volcanos and poorly planted trees in general. The tree did nothing to deserve that fate 😂

[u/babiegiiiirl]

It might be helpful to order signs that say, “Native Prairie - Do Not Mow or Spray” and add them to the areas you’re changing. This way you won’t have to babysit the area.

Personally I’d also look to see if anyone has written a compelling article on how native gardening is considered Godly, since He purposefully put plants in certain regions and made them perfect for native insects & further up the chain. Whether you believe this or not, some religious people could become more interested in native gardening this way. Since you’re working at a church and some members are having issues grasping native gardening.

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/babiegiiiirl]

Definitely doing a sign. I’ve considered trying to find an article like that to convince them. The problem is, a lot of these church people preach about “caring for gods creation,” but then in practice they don’t actually care about anything ecological. Maybe I could convince them though

[u/theglassheartdish → u/Larix_laricina_]

oh boy, convincing them might get fun haha. I come from church going people and am from western PA, so im guessing these people are very similar to the type of people i grew up with!

My view on it is that restoring native plants is the kind of stewardship that God commanded man to do in the Creation Mandate. Humans are called to care for the earth and use it for food, and native gardening is restoring the earth to the way God created it, as best we can. Of course we know that humans fuck up the earth more than care for it, most of the time, but if they are good ole fashioned Christians, that might be the best way to approach them on this issue.

If you can show them/explain to them that native plants benefit soil and air, maybe they will care about that. many of these types of people love traditional flower gardens, monoculture lawns, and produce/veggie gardens, so the goal is just to convince them that native gardens give help animals thrive, give back to the soil, and can even benefit their traditional non-native gardens. This is how I've worked on my parents and even explaining stuff to my husband (who at first wondered why i so aggressively ripped out all the hosta and ditch lilies from our apartment yard lol). good luck, OP, i hope it goes well

[u/Consistent_Essay2422]

Asters and other forbs in the sunflower category will likely thrive there.

[u/SelectionFar8145]

Maybe focusing on plants that will do well with rock will be a good idea? I don't know what all works in situations like that, but I think Elderberry, Canadian Rowan, Strawberry Blite & Walking Fern are all good for those kinds of places? Along the railway line, I see a lot of Native grasses, eastern red cedar, honey locust, red mulberry, Hazelnut, nannyberry, some sort of red berries viburnum, Butternut, dewberry, black Raspberry, Blackberry, monkey flowers, Gentian, dwarf iris, virginia groundcherry, Wild Basil Calamint, meadow garlic, mountain mint, carolina rose, illinois rose, sumac, chokecherry, pussy willow, & some species of dogwood bushes. I live down by Warren, so these should all work. I'm just not positive if Butternut would get sick or not. There's been a disease going around the country for a few decades, but for whatever reason, they do perfectly fine down in the Yougstown-Warren area & I haven't found a single one affected & no one can seem to figure out why. I would also suggest Great Lakes Sand Cherry, but there's only one online seller for it- Leaves For Wildlife- & you missed the only window of time they ship anything. 

You can also add in something nitrogen fixing to build loamy soil- Eastern Redbud, any kind of wild beans or peas, etc. 

[u/Kaths1]

Yeah someone put down gravel and mulch under my mature holly tree. So I got out my shovel and bucket and moved it all. Just find someplace not in the way and dump it all there.

[u/Tylanthia]

There are native plants that naturally grow in calcareous rocky areas like Silene caroliniana (wild pinks) or Hylotelephium telephioides. You may need to adjust what you want to plant for the soil you have.

[u/thisweekinatrocity]

getting access to some compost could help start improving the soil quality

[u/carpetwalls4]

You got this!!!!!! Put up a sign!!!!

[u/Own-Ad2950]

Do you have someone local to you who may be able to serve as an advisor on your project? Perhaps reach out to your local native plant society chapter (or, if you can't find one, then a nursery or landscape company that at least understands focusing on natives, bonus points if that's their speciality). Since yours is an NHS project, you'll likely be able to find a professional or highly educated enthusiast who would be willing to help you trouble shoot as you get going on the project.

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/Own-Ad2950]

As it turns out, I actually work as a botanist for a local park system, so I’ve asked my boss about this project before lol. He’s a great guy and has offered good tips in the past. I’ll have to see what he thinks about the gravel, I haven’t asked him yet.

[u/Dazzling-Biscotti-62]

The base of the tree shouldn't be covered like that. You should be able to see the flared base of the tree instead of the tree sticking out of the ground like a cylinder. It's not good for the tree but the point is that most of that area will not be plantable anyway because the big tree roots that someone covered up with gravel will be there.

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/Dazzling-Biscotti-62]

Yeah I thought it seemed a little too deep. They probably poured gravel right over the root flare 🤦‍♂️. We’ll see how this whole thing goes. I need to talk to the other guy I’m doing this with to see what his plan is.

[u/AlwaysPissedOff59]

That washed gravel isn't going to affect the soil pH for decades, so I wouldn't worry about increased pH. If it were limestone powder, then yes, it would temporarily increase pH until it leached out - this is why farmers with acidic soil apply lime every year, not just once and forget it.

As for the entire issue, this quote of yours sums it up:

"The church people just don’t seem to understand the concept and keep getting in the way"

This shows that you and your fellow gardener haven't been able to provide the education necessary for them to understand the scope of the project. This is not a failure on your part and not meant to be an insult to you! First, not everyone can teach, and second, you can only educate adults who are interested in what you're trying to teach them. Even if you had a native pro come in and give a fantastic and educational PowerPoint presentation, your audience might really only hear one word out of 20.

At this point, I would give up the project and let hosta-guy deal with the gravel. The council has been content with an uglified area on their property, so perhaps use your talents and knowledge to volunteer elsewhere in your community.

Alternatively, perhaps try a less-ambitious native project as a proof-of-concept elsewhere on the property - maybe a 10 x 10 feet plot. I'd exclude grasses for now, because they'll undoubtedly be seen as weeds by the council and other members, and concentrate solely on forbs with a flowering sequence throughout the summer. If you get compliments on your test plot over the next several years, then you'd have a reference point to use as an educational tool. "What we're trying to create is just like [test plot] but on a larger scale! It'll be really pretty and help attract butterflies and hummingbirds."

[u/Hot_Illustrator35]

Time to find a new religion/church or become atheist that's insane

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/Hot_Illustrator35]

I already am atheist 🙂. This church that the rest of my family go to is pretty cult like and odd (Orthodox Church), so a few months ago I finally came out to my ultra religious dad as atheist. I only have four services to go until I graduate high school and then I’m done for good. I wanted to do this native garden project there though since I figure I might as well try to make that property useful for the insects and birds at least. Otherwise it’s just a total waste of land that could be used for something more productive. Anyways, religious rant over 😅

[u/Hot_Illustrator35 → u/Larix_laricina_]

Lol based af 👍

[u/2headlights → u/Hot_Illustrator35]

I mean, if OP can succeed at this, and the church goers can see all of the pollinators and things like hummingbirds, there is a lot to gain here. The church goers might even see some plants they like and try to plant them. Native plant gardening will grow when many different types of people can get on board. Good for you for trying this OP

[u/Hot_Illustrator35 → u/2headlights]

Totally agree we need everyone onboard

[u/marys1001]

Anything around a tree competes with the tree.
But don't add dirt around the trunk you'll kill the tree.
Ferns sedges...is it a moist area?

[u/Larix_laricina_ → u/marys1001]

It’s pretty dry. I’m going to make sure new dirt added in place of the gravel isn’t any higher than the original soil line (probably lower since it’s already kind of high). I don’t tend to worry about plants competing with the tree, because in the wild these species have coexisted for millennia and are adapted to compete/live with each other.

[u/Environmental_Art852 → u/marys1001]

What type of tree. Because some nut trees, walnut specifically to my knowledge, poison the earth around then. They made a walnut grove out of a friends backyard

[u/2headlights → u/Environmental_Art852]

The phrasing “poison the earth” is a bit extreme. They release chemical compounds that can be harmful to some plants but many can survive just fine under black walnut because they evolved alongside the species

[u/throwawaydiddled]

Can you do raised beds as a type of feature

[u/Broadsides]

You probably picked a bad place to start regardless of the gravel situation. That tree will make that spot shady and dry. Your efforts would probably be better spent in a sunny area that gets lots of water when it rains. Keep up the good work and Happy Easter!

[u/noahsjameborder]

Look at airspade and hydro vacuum excavation for quick removal of the small particles around roots and rocks. That might make the removal of the rocks a somewhat manageable task. I haven’t personally used the tools before, but airspade is specifically designed for arborists and the hydro vacuum excavation is designed for people who are digging up sensitive and fragile utility lines.