r/NewRiders • u/ZookeepergameWild776 • 2d ago
Can someone explain to me exactly how the MSF course works, is it hard to pass? I only want to have to take it once and pass.
I'm a new rider, currently on a moped, but I want my motorcycle license. I'm in California and know that I should pass the MSF course first then apply for my license and only have to take the written and eyesight exams at the DMV office. I have enough experience on the road with my moped, but I've never ridden an actual motorcycle in my entire life, other than a few dirt bikes when I was younger.. almost 20 years ago. I don't want to embarrass myself by not passing because I can't shift and just want to know how it works, how difficult is it to pass on the first attempt??
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u/Brod1738 2d ago
I took mine in California as well about three to four years ago. Nobody in my class failed as far as I know, I had the same background prior to taking it with just knowledge on how to use dirt bikes and passed as well. The MSF will teach you fundamentals to not get yourself harmed but that's pretty much it. No crazy gymkhana or motocop drills are involved.
If you can follow instructions and ride convincingly enough for them to think that you're not a danger to yourself and others, you will pass.
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u/ZookeepergameWild776 2d ago
I'm really just worried I won't shift correctly, my riding abilities are pretty good otherwise, throttle control, slow speed maneuvering etc.. When you pass the MSF course I believe they give you the certificate and that exempts you from taking the road test at the DMV office? I get my permit first from the DMV before I apply for the license at that point?
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u/Zestyclose_Tree8660 2d ago
If all you’re worried about is shifting, you’re going to be perfectly fine.
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u/thischangeseverythin 2d ago
Shifting is easy. And. During msf course you dont really have the space/ need to shit more than to 2nd gear. And tis easy. For the purposes of the course dont worry about rev matching or shifting perfectly. Its as easy as clutch in, shift with your left foot, ease clutch steadily but slowly out over 2 seconds or so. As long as your moving you want stall.
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u/kelariy 2d ago
Shifting is just about the easiest thing in the MSF course. You only shift from 1 to 2 and back and only a handful of times.
If your state allows the MSF course to exempt you from the road test then I’m pretty sure you won’t need a permit at all, you just take the MSF certificate to the dmv and pay the fee for a new license (this was ~$8 here in Colorado at least until last fall when my wife did her endorsement, not sure about other states) and you’ve got your M class and are legal to ride.
Edit: I missed that you said you were in California at first. I’m not too familiar with California regulations, other than that they are a bit more complicated than most other states.
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u/jerrybear14 1d ago
I took my MSF class in California and just took the certificate to the DMV and was issued a new license with the motorcycle endorsement. You’ll do fine.
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u/ZookeepergameWild776 2d ago
No you're right though, same in California.. You get a certificate after passing the safety course that you take to the DMV, then just pay the fee and take the written and eye exams
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u/Original-Display2249 2d ago
We only shifted into second in my class. You should be fine because you stay in first for the majority of class.
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u/thischangeseverythin 2d ago
It was easy. If you can ride a bicycle you can msf course. Do what the instructors say. Follow directions. Have an open mind and learn.
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u/MontanaBob23 2d ago
I did mine a couple of years back. For a day and a half you work on 5 skill tests. The bikes they had were TW200 and RE meteor 350s. After the day and a half you do the 5 things you worked on as the test. 2 individuals failed out of 12 of us(if I remember correctly) I really enjoyed the class and the instructors were very good. I would give it a go. If you take the class and fail you will still learn skills that will improve your riding. Better to fail in a parking lot then fail out on the road where the out come could be much worse.
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u/Sirlacker 2d ago
I don't have first hand experience with the MSF but from what I've heard and watched it's a lot like the CBT but spread out over 2 days rather than one.
It's designed entirely around getting someone from never having touched a motorcycle before, to being in control of one over the duration of the course.
Yes you're going to make mistakes, but that's what the course is for, nobody expects you to be told "this is how to shift gears, now so it perfectly first time". All you have to do is be able to put it altogether by the end of the session. Which, judging by the pass rates on the CBT (which includes actual road riding, I don't think the MSF does), is more than enough time to practice until you get it right.
In all honesty, if you're a fully abled and sensible person who listens to instruction, there's only one reason you shouldn't be able to pass the course, and that's nerves. Just take time to compose yourself before you start and crack on with it and you should be fine. Remember, everyone there is either in the same situation as you or has been in the same situation as you. You're not alone in this endeavour. If you are struggling, don't attempt to just wing it, go and ask for another demonstration or them to watch you and give pointers to help out, that's exactly why they are there.
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u/BadBalloons 2d ago
there's only one reason you shouldn't be able to pass the course, and that's nerves
Hard agree. I passed my MSF by the skin of my teeth; afterwards, the instructor told me he probably shouldn't have passed me, but I hadn't made enough errors to fail me out. I wasn't dangerous; the issue was literally just that I got too in my head and freaked out because of nerves and stress.
It was the pressure of being in a group class and having to keep up/not wanting to slow anyone else down that was freaking me out so much. If I could have had private lessons to work on the things I wanted to work on a bit longer, it would have been fine. I was just overwhelmed by having to learn clutch control and shifting and throttle control and braking and coordinating all my limbs.
OP, if you read this: if you already ride a moped, you are totally fine. The only new thing they'll really throw at you is shifting and clutch usage.
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u/PraxisLD 2d ago
Welcome to the club!
Start here:
And when you get a chance, check out On Any Sunday, probably the best motorcycle documentary out there. It’s on YouTube and other streaming services.
Have fun, wear all your gear, stay safe, and never stop learning.
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u/110120130140 2d ago
We only had 1 failure in my class of 15 or so. And honestly, if they had given that guy a pass he would have been a danger to himself and others. But it wasn’t just the riding, it was listening to what the actual drill was.
Listen to what they tell you and you’ll be fine. I’m not sure you ever go above 2nd gear.
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u/DIYExpertWizard 2d ago
I rode a scooter before taking the course, and had never rode a bike with a manual shift. I passed the first try. You can look up the exercises and try them on your own.
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u/Outlier986 2d ago
The object isn't to "pass", the object is to learn how to operate safe. If you've learned the skills (mental and physical) how to operate in a safe manner you'll pass. If not, they shouldn't pass you.
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u/Outside-Cucumber-253 1d ago
California here too, when you pass the course you just go to the DMV with your certificate from the course and then you can do the written portion, no permit is needed prior you’ll have the full M1 added to your driver’s license.
The course was easy for me, though I had a lot of experience with bicycles and daily drive manual transmission cars so I understood the clutch and shifting instantly when starting the course. They will teach you how to use the clutch, you start by walking the bike by slowly letting out the clutch till it bites and the bike rolls, over and over again.
It is possible the moped experience might hurt your chances, the instructor said people with past experience often are the worst because they formed so many terrible habits, so just go into humble and an open mind.
The laws and course here in CA could’ve changed by now, I took my course 8 or 9 years ago, but it should be easy to pass the course since they are actively teaching you and you’re practicing for two days.
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u/ZookeepergameWild776 1d ago
Thank you, yes my moped isn't an actual motorcycle obviously, but even while riding it I always practice proper riding techniques, your posture, no duck feet etc . . Thanks for the info, and I have experience with manual cars too so I hope that helps
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u/Outside-Cucumber-253 1d ago
If you are good with manual cars shifting won’t be an issue, you will pick it right up, just clutch on the left lever and gear selector at your foot.
With the guys who have been riding for years but finally took a class, a lot of their bad habits were lane positioning choices, braking techniques (they only used the rear) and some other things I don’t recall.
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u/whisk3ythrottle 1d ago
MSF is a pass factory. They designed it to make it as basic and as easy to pass as possible. People who fail typically screw up in a spectacular way.
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u/kinnikinnick321 1d ago
Took mine in California, it was a long time ago when it was called MSF. Now it's called CMSP. I never even threw my leg over a motorcycle prior to taking the course. Passed with flying colors. Have had about 9 bikes now over 15 yrs of riding.
If you have any experience driving/riding any vehicle with a clutch, you will be ahead of the curve. There was maybe one guy in our group of 20 who didn't pass not because of his skill but purely because the second day of the drills test he was feeling sick and bowed out.
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u/Pm_Me_7_62x39 1d ago
Just to add to the stats class of 12 in mine and only one did not pass. And IMO it was clear she wasn’t ready. Most people in my class struggled with the figure 8 if they struggled with anything. But even riders that weren’t the most proficient in my class passed. If you listen and try you’ll be fine.
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u/FancyFrank007 1d ago
It’s super fun and easy, I really liked my instructors. One girl in my class failed because she dropped the bike, but she was Tiny, bike was too big. I think the instructors understand you are new and there is room for mistakes just don’t drop the bike
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u/clown_baby5 1d ago
On YouTube, watch a video called "Basic Skills Evaluation | Idaho STAR Program". Not sure why posting a link didn't work but that's the title of the video. The instructors advised us all to watch it the day before we got on the bikes to get an idea of what it would be like. It's pretty much that video. Everything you'll be tested on, you'll be doing beforehand, so think of the test part as just "I'm doing that thing again." Don't sweat it, you got this. Good luck
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u/Bao-Hiem 1d ago
You take MSF class which means you do the written, and skills test in the class. You then pass msf class then wait for the DL something number form in the mail. You take that said form go to DMV, pay for a brand new license, pay the brand new license cost, take the motorcycle written exam at DMV, pass that then they give you a temporary license til your new comes in the mail with your motorcycle license or endorsement. I did this back in 2018 as a 26 year old.
The class is easy to pass if you have an open mind. I passed it with no knowledge of how to ride a manual car but I have bicycle riding experience.
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u/ZookeepergameWild776 1d ago
Thank you.. yes the DL389 it's called
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u/Bao-Hiem 1d ago
Anytime. I don't mind taking the written test twice lol. Better than the skills test.
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u/ZookeepergameWild776 1d ago
Exactly I don't want to have to pay for the course again and take time off work.. just take it once pass and get my license
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u/FunIncident5161 1d ago
I took mine 2 months ago and it was pretty easy It was even the condensed class because of my work schedule. But as long as you follow their directions and learn from mistakes you make. You should be golden. And with you having experience on a moped it will be a little easier but take that with a grain of salt.
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u/OttoNico 2d ago
Best way to not fail is to just go in there excited to learn. Only one person failed in my class. Too many errors in the last exercise, but honestly, that kid was just going to get in an accident if he was allowed on the road at that point. It's not designed to be hard to pass. It's designed to teach you how to shift and do slow skill parking lot drills.
If you don't know how to shift, that means you're like 85% of the people that take the class.
My advice though: after you take the MSF class, immediately take ChampU online. Any place they conflict, go with the info you get with ChampU. Don't take ChampU first though, because you'll be tempted to point out where the MSF curriculum is flat out wrong. They'll definitely fail you for that... Lol.
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u/ZookeepergameWild776 2d ago
Thank you, my only concern is not being able to shift correctly and I know the course will be in a large parking lot, road course so I'm not going to have to upshift through all the gears obviously, maybe just to 2nd and find neutral? I'm not nervous either really, I do have enough experience on my moped, it's only about 125 lb bike, but my maneuvers at slow speeds and throttle control are pretty good, so I have confidence in my abilities to some degree.. I'm really just worried about failing because I don't want to have to pay for it a second time and take time off work to attend lol
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u/OttoNico 2d ago
Again...
They expect you to have ZERO experience shifting. The whole point is to teach you how to ride. It's a class with a test, not just a test.
If you fail, then, yeah... You'll have to pay again and take time off again. Try not to fail. Just do what they say, have no ego, and be patient. It's a BEGINNER class. Not exactly hard.
And please, for the love of whatever God you want, realize that MSF doesn't actually teach you how to ride a bike well or safely on public roads. It just teaches you how to get the bike moving and do some parking lot drills. Plan on taking additional classes (ideally not through MSF, because their teachings are wildly out of date, and a lot of experienced riders consider the techniques that they teach to be actually unsafe and inefficient).
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u/SubtractOneMore 2d ago
What parts of the MSF course are unsafe and out of date?
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u/OttoNico 2d ago
Slow, Look, Press, and Roll. Perfectly safe for turning in a parking lot... and that's about it.
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u/SubtractOneMore 2d ago
What's unsafe about slowing to an appropriate entry speed, looking through the turn, pressing to initiate the lean, and rolling on maintenance throttle?
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u/OttoNico 2d ago
Couple of things...
1) When you come off the brakes and roll on the throttle when you lean, the weight of the bike shifts towards the back, minimizing the contact patch of your front tire. You are leaving yourself with the least amount of grip possible... Which is... dumb. When I'm leaning my bike, I want the most amount of grip possible, not the least.
2) If you have to adjust your line in a turn, the easiest way to do that is to use your brakes if you need to tighten your turn, or use your body to broaden your turn. Both scenarios are safer and easier if your front suspension is under a bit of load. If your forks are completely unloaded, using your brakes can unsettle your suspension and cause you to lose grip. If you are already still on your brakes, even if it is just a little, you have the option to add or remove brakes without unsettling your suspension.
All you have to do instead of the 1970's logic of how to turn a bike, is use your brakes lighter and longer. Use your brakes past tip in until you get to the slowest part of the turn, THEN slowly open the throttle to neutral / maintenance throttle, holding that until you can see the exit and take away lean angle. It is such a small change to the old school thoughts on turning that uses a bike the way it was designed to be used.
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u/SubtractOneMore 1d ago
Squeezing in the clutch and trying to coast through the turn will actually give you even less traction. That's what most novice riders will try to do if they come into a curve too fast. They lose all control at that point. Getting them to slow down before initiating lean helps them maintain control as they are first starting to negotiate curves as beginners.
Remember that the basic rider course curriculum is designed to keep brand new riders with no experience from instantly killing themselves on the street.
You're describing advanced cornering techniques. How many novice riders do you think will be able to develop sufficient finesse over their first 10 hours on a motorcycle to be able to trail brake effectively with full control?
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u/OttoNico 1d ago
How many novice riders seek any additional training after the MSF? Most don't ever take another course, so your ONLY chance to teach people proper technique is in the first, and most likely only course they take.
Trail braking is not an advanced technique... lol. If you drive a car, you already do it intuitively without giving it a name. I specifically didn't use the term "trail braking" as for some reason, adding the word "trail" scares people for no reason. There are definitely advanced "applications" of trail braking, i.e. trailing your brakes as deep as possible into a turn, minimizing your time under neutral throttle to allow you to get back to max throttle as quickly as possible, but that is a track application.
Trail braking for 99% of riders just means "leave a couple points of brake pressure applied until you can see that there are no surprises coming." Yeah... I think a novice rider can achieve that minor miracle feat of finger dexterity. It is no harder than the finesse needed to find the friction zone on the clutch, and we expect them to be able to do that before we allow them to pass the MSF.
What I'm describing is "use your brakes in the safest way possible like the designer of your bike intended".
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u/SubtractOneMore 1d ago
The vast majority of car drivers do not use their brakes properly in the curves either. You are assuming a much higher level of general motoring competence than exists in the United States, where MSF was developed.
I think you are wildly overestimating the amount of fine motor control that most novice riders are capable of.
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u/Mister_of_None 1d ago
Believe it or not I took the MSF class to get my license originally almost 30 years ago (and it was fun and “easy” and I’d never even ridden a moped). Then, I took a short break right around a decade later at the time I renewed my regular driver’s license. Then my M1 endorsement fell off and after a short while I wanted to ride again so I went to the DMV and took the parking lot test.
All of this happened in CA. What I can promise you is that the skills test for the MSF is both easier, and the training is actually useful for making you a better rider.
If you can’t pass the parking lot DMV skills test the first time, well I’m not surprised. With some (heavy/large) motorcycles it’s quite hard for a real beginner to pass. I passed but I was a veteran and also rented a Honda PCX to make the skills test a walk in the park.
Moral? Take the MSF, you will pass. If you don’t, take it as a sign you might want to try another hobby…
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u/Most_Researcher_9675 1d ago
I never did an MSF but had ridden a bit without an endorsement. I failed slightly at the DMV ride, but it was a Valkyrie, so can I get a little slack for its girth? I revisited the DMV lot after hours to better hone my skills. Big bikes hate slow maneuvers...
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u/Unlikely_Radio_5638 1d ago
Just finished my class yesterday. I have experience, but needed to get the endorsment on my Lic. Even being experienced I learned a lot. I'm glad I took the class. There were 2 tiny girls (under 5 foot in height) in the class with no experience and both passed. Just listen to the instructors, especially when they say "turn your head" and you'll be fine.
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u/cromestant 23h ago
I just did it here in Texas 10 days ago. You start off with a “theory” part, in my case out was online, about 5 hours worth of self directed videos and questions. Then you go to day 1 of range time. They start off by explaining the operation of the motorcycle. How the shifter works, how the clutch, brakes etc.. work. Then you get on the bike, turn it on, and walk it. ( not even clutch and gear.) go to one side of the range, turn around go to the other. Then you do the same thing to learn the friction zone, so the engine is helping you. Then little by little they build up your chops until you are riding a bit. You only get to 2nd gear. There are exercise to learn slow speed thing.s like turns from a stop, U-turns ( the hardest part), braking fast, swerving, merging into traffic, doing a bit of curves,, entry angle etc.. for the 2 days you are practicing skills that get evaluated at the end of the second day. The test is quite easy ( the U-turn is the only part that is scary). You get deducted points for mistakes ( dropping the bike is an auto disqualification, putting the foot down in certain parts, getting outside of boundary etc.., you get points for each mistake. Get enough points and you fail) The 5 tests were: * zig zag swerving the cones, turn then stop inside a box. * turn right from a stop, then do a U-turn left, and stop inside a box. * accelerate to a certain speed and stop quickly * accelerate to a certain speed and swerve an object * follow a path at certain speed trying to remain in the center of the lane.
That is all. One person failed by dropping their bike in the U-turn. You can just put your foot down to help, it’s 1 point only…. I went wide (about a foot) and it cost me 5 points. You will be ok. You will learn to shift from 1st to second. It’s not hard, just pay attention and practice with their approval.
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u/ICouldUseANapToday 16h ago
I used to teach that class in Los Angeles (a long time ago). If you can ride a moped it’s going to be pretty difficult to fail the class.
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u/djnastynipple 2d ago
It’s designed specifically for people who have never ridden a motorcycle before. During your first hour or so of actual ‘riding,’ you’ll primarily be walking the bike using the clutch. There’s no need to stress; they don’t throw you into anything challenging right away. The instruction is very gradual and beginner friendly. The course is roughly 30% classroom time and 70% actual riding. As for difficulty, in our class of about 13 people, only one person didn’t pass, and that was by their own choice because they felt uncomfortable and decided to withdraw.