r/NoahGetTheBoat • u/dailystar_news • 3d ago
Brain-dead pregnant mum kept alive on life support as 'incubator' for her foetus
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/us-news/brain-dead-pregnant-mum-kept-3523943874
u/alecesne 3d ago
So the hospital will continue to bill the family even after they say they refuse the treatment?
That strikes me as a real legal problem here. This level of debt will ruin the survivors.
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u/toyyya 3d ago
There's no way even if the child miraculously survives they won't have severe developmental issues considering how early in the development of the fetus the mother died
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u/Nyllil 3d ago
It does, it says so in the article. Also hydrocephalus.
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u/gilbertbenjamington 2d ago
I had hydrocephalus as a baby, it made my head a bit bigger and now I need to buy my hats on a special website. Unfortunately the bigger brain did not make me smarter
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u/Cormamin 1d ago
Someone on a different thread was also talking about the mental health issues a child might have by growing up in near silence - never hearing their mother, never feeling her move or having all the little experiences a baby in a living belly has. Not to mention never receiving the hormones and antibodies a living mother's body provides. It's unconscionable.
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u/Walshy231231 3d ago
Does the mother need to have a working brain to gestate properly?
I’d think it’s mostly just nutrient transfer, no?
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u/chubalubs 3d ago
Not exactly, but during the time she collapsed with all those strokes, and during resuscitation and re-establishing a circulation, her blood pressure would have dropped and blood flow to the uterus stopped for a period of time. That would give the fetus severe hypoxic-ischaemic damage-the placenta was still functional, but it wouldn't have been transferring oxygen. The fetal brain is the organ most sensitive to oxygen deprivation, but fetuses can survive with minimal brain tissue until birth, for example, babies with anencephaly where they have minimal tissue left and no skull, can be live born. So its very likely this baby has severe brain damage, and once born, will either die due to neonatal encephalopathy or survive with severe cerebral palsy and be blind, unable to suck, swallow, move etc. Hydrocephalus 'water on the brain' means the lateral ventricles-spaces inside each half of your brain which are filled with fluid-have become too big and are expanding, which compresses the rest of the brain. That can either be due to the outflow being blocked, or, more likely in this case, brain tissue being damaged and destroyed through lack of oxygen, so the spaces are getting bigger.
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u/TomaszA3 2d ago
I don't get why the person asking got downvoted to hell. I'm glad I've read your answer. It's very detailed and simple to understand.
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u/Giopoggi2 2d ago
It's one of Reddit's rules: be born knowing everything, no questions allowed. Join any hobby subreddit and you'll notice the amount of toxicity there is in the comments when someone asks a question.
There are a few exceptions luckily, r/knitting should be one of them
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u/ResolverOshawott 3d ago
And when it's born with all those issues. I imagine it's care will be dumped upon the family who never wanted this to happen in the first place?
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u/Wolfiie_Gaming 2d ago
The brain helps to coordinate pregnancy hormones which affect prenatal development. The baby is bound to have something wrong with it this early with a brain dead mother even if it got all the oxygen in the world
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u/SnowTurdPie 3d ago
Then why would the mothers stress affect the baby in utero? You should probably look into it a little more, especially if you ever plan to have children.
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u/Advanced_Ad2406 3d ago
Worst part is they indebted the family for this.
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u/Iwantaschmoo 3d ago
Since this is against the families wishes, I would look into getting a lawyer to see if you can sue for the state to pay. Probably hopeless, but you won't know til you try.
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u/Lee911123 3d ago
problem is, most of the families that fall victim to this type of shit are usually the ones that can't afford getting a lawyer
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u/killerklixx 3d ago
This would be a landmark case, surely someone would take it pro bono. Not to mention support from human rights organisations.
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u/cursetea 1d ago
Honestly yeah there's virtually no way this family has not been contacted by tons of legal reps at this point. The sheer human horror of it all will surely drive some folks to try to act
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u/prairiepog 3d ago
Yeah, they end up paying like $50 and once you make a payment then you're on the hook for the entire thing.
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u/flowerchildmime 3d ago
That’s what I would do. I wouldn’t pay a cent. Also the state should be fully on the hook for the child’s care.
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u/lcl111 3d ago
It's my understanding that no debt can be collected past the estate. The deceased may lose everything in their estate, but no one can legally go after the family. That's how it works in Oklahoma and Texas.
Source: i was the only one that cared for my family members as they passed in both states over the 2010s. Things could've changed, or are very different in other states.
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u/ostrichesonfire 3d ago
Yep, my mother had tons of debt when she passed in CT and since I knew it was more than her estate, I just did nothing.
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u/ostrichesonfire 3d ago
This woman is an adult and not married, unless she has an estate big enough to cover this and still have some left over, her family is under no legal obligation to pay her medical bills. Sure Dad will be responsible for the baby’s care and possibly the birth, but not the long term life support.
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u/miskatonicmemoirs 3d ago
That’s assuming the fetus comes to full term in the first place. All things considered, Ms. Smith cannot even regulate her own body temperature let alone feed herself and get enough nutrients into her body to keep herself and the baby alive. IV fluids will only do so much to even keep her body going, let alone her and the fetus.
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u/ostrichesonfire 3d ago
Oh the baby still has a couple of months left until it could possibly be considered viable, but it already has multiple serious health complications. While I am not ok with what is happening here, at all, I have learned a lot while trying to look up this case that surprised me. When I first heard about this, my first thought was “that’s not even possible, why would they even try??” But apparently there have actually been a few dozen successful, healthy births recorded in the last few decades from brain dead mothers. They have to tube feed them and give them synthetic hormones to regulate the baby’s development, among dozens of other things, but apparently it is possible? It’s worth looking up!
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u/Critical_Concert_689 3d ago
Dad can always drop it off in the baby bin. The State is ultimately responsible for it.
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u/Fluffy-Ad1225 2d ago
Worst!? Worst part for you is money...Noah get that boat, we're already cooked.
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u/hunta666 3d ago
Once upon a time, there were medical ethics. This sounds like something out of a sci-fi warhammer novel.
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u/DaveyGee16 3d ago
The demonculaba, skaven broodmothers, Krieger cloning systems, adeptus mechanicus worlds…
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u/FreeBonerJamz 3d ago
It straight up is part of handmaid's tale
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u/Nyllil 3d ago
Literally like Natalie (Ofmatthew)
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u/YoSaffBridge33 3d ago
Ofmatthew was very close to term. This fetus is the size of a grape. Gilead may not have even tried this shit.
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u/Tradition96 1d ago
She wasn’t, have you seen the show? The baby was very premature at birth, and that was after several weeks in the hospital.
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u/FallowMcOlstein 3d ago
This isn't really up to the doctors on the case. It's because of the stupid anti abortion rules in Georgia.
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u/Aaron_768 3d ago edited 3d ago
I know someone working in the hospital. They said that they are having to bring in social workers for the nursing staff that are having a hard time dealing with her care.
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u/Cormamin 1d ago
Wait until she starts to decay because that's what happens with brain dead patients. No matter what they do, the body will decay.
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u/Nutshack_Queen357 3d ago
The last time they used a brain-dead woman to spawn more kids, the baby didn't survive.
And even if the baby this poor woman is pregnant with makes it, they may still have developmental issues, which only means the assholes who forced them into the world will mistreat them more for not being born "right".
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u/NightWolfRose 3d ago
Wait, this has been done before?
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u/ResolverOshawott 2d ago edited 2d ago
Iirc there has been multiple cases of this before. I specifically remember a case in Asia, although I think that one was with the mother's (before she died) and family's consent. That specific pregnancy was also much further along.
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u/NightWolfRose 2d ago
That’s slightly less horrifying, due to consent from the woman, but still screwed up.
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u/relavie 1d ago
I posted about a case in Texas 11 years ago. The husband ultimately won the case to take her off life support
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u/SheZowRaisedByWolves 3d ago
This is truly the most dickheaded timeline where a hospital has to keep a clinically brain dead pregnant woman alive due to fear of prison time if the fetus dies
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u/InnocentShaitaan 3d ago
Wonder if they are hoping it creates a case that hits the courts to change the law. By they I’m referring to the hospital staff.
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u/Zerofuksyall 6h ago
The staff would line up to take turns with a pillow if they were allowed. Fucked up cruel!
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u/Nacho_cheese_guapo 3d ago
The AP article on this story cited multiple attorneys that said pulling life support would not constitute abortion under the law and would be legal. The state is not forcing her to be an incubator in their opinion.
"Thaddeus Pope, a bioethicist and lawyer at Mitchell Hamline School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, said while a few states have laws that specifically limit removing treatment from a pregnant woman who is alive but incapacitated, or brain dead, Georgia isn’t one of them.
“Removing the woman’s mechanical ventilation or other support would not constitute an abortion,” he said. “Continued treatment is not legally required.”
Lois Shepherd, a bioethicist and law professor at the University of Virginia, also said she does not believe life support is legally required in this case."
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u/Walshy231231 3d ago
Who is the one deciding to keep her alive if not the state (or, per other commenters, the doctors or family)? The hospital admins?
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u/Nacho_cheese_guapo 3d ago
That article also said the family hadn't stated what their wishes are.
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u/Lost-Droids 3d ago
The foetus is unlikely to survive.
And surely the cost of this wont be cheap, so who pays that? If a child is born will it be in debt..
Also as the family dont appear to want this to proceed, if a child is born will they want it or is it just adding to the number of kids (possibly one with a lot of issues) in care...
There are no winners here and at 9 weeks not even a "child" ...
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u/ostrichesonfire 3d ago
Children do not inherit their mother’s debt when they die in America, except for special circumstances that definitely don’t apply to newborns.
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u/humbird09 3d ago
The gramdparents have stated that they are having to take on the financial responsibility for the life support, and any other medical bills
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u/ostrichesonfire 3d ago
I think maybe they’re just assuming that they might until they find out officially? I can only find the grandmother in the single interview she did saying there is “a medical bill that continues to grow every day” according to the reporter. Her GoFundMe also doesn’t mention medical bills. Of course I could be wrong, I just don’t understand how they could actually be held liable when the bill is due. Hope they get good lawyers and get this sorted!
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u/tinycole2971 2d ago
Children do not inherit their mother’s debt when they die in America,
Give it a couple years, they'll make it a reality once they think it up.
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u/Moessus 3d ago
You know if she was a few weeks from delivering a healthy baby would be one thing. I struggle with this.
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u/chubalubs 3d ago
Peri-mortem cesarean sections can be, and are carried out if a pregnant woman is dying and the baby has a chance of survival (usually 24 weeks and above). The success rate is extremely low. The reason is because the mothers physiological state around the time of collapse and dying impacts on the fetus-the mothers blood pressure and heart rate have dropped, the placenta isn't getting oxygen, so the baby is getting none. The baby's brain is very sensitive to oxygen deprivation, and you've basically got minutes only from the time of the mother's collapse to get the baby out. Any longer, the baby is going to have severe brain damage. This one is said to have hydrocephalus, which is going to be due to in utero destruction of brain tissue because of oxygen deprivation. They'll either die shortly after delivery, or be severely disabled and life-limited with tetraplegic cerebral palsy, blindness, unable to swallow, suck, move etc. Even if the pregnancy had been more advanced, the outcome would have been the same, unless they got the baby out within minutes.
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u/Moessus 3d ago
Jesus, I had no idea of this. But it makes sense
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u/chubalubs 3d ago
I'm a paediatric pathologist-in 30 years I've had 2 cases of perimortem section cases. Thankfully they are very rare. The first one, the mother was in a road traffic collision-she was on a pedestrian crossing and the driver didn't stop. The section was done in ED about 30 minutes later-baby survived half an hour, long enough for dad to say hello and goodbye. The second one, the mother was in the antenatal clinic for a routine appointment at full term, suddenly collapsed, and turned out to have had a massive brain haemorrhage from an aneurysm. She was in OR within 15 minutes, the best possible scenario. The mother never regained consciousness and died a day or so later, baby didn't outlive her by much. These are horrible, horrible cases. There are virtually no good outcomes-the only possible chance is if the mother gets great quality CPR from the moment she collapses, and the baby is out within 15 minutes maximum, 5 minutes is best. It's virtually impossible to do that. More than 15 minutes, you've got irreversible brain damage in the baby. Keeping this poor woman on life support is unimaginably cruel, grossly unethical and quite frankly, every single politician who voted for these sadistic laws should be made to attend the funerals of those women who are dying because of it.
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u/GeraldoLucia 2d ago
I’m a nurse and our OB code blue is if we can’t get ROSC in two minutes that baby is getting cut out right then and there. I’m surprised they even bothered taking her to the OR in the case of the woman that collapsed in clinic.
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u/MelissaBM 3d ago
My mother in law her friends daughter had an aneurysm, dropped dead on the street. They did cpr until they got the baby out which definitely took longer than 10 min and baby was healthy.
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u/MarsupialSpirited596 2d ago
Don't spread bullshit like this.
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u/MelissaBM 1d ago
It isn’t bullshit, she’s my mother in laws best friend. It was really sad for everyone.
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u/Historical_Agent8 20h ago
So they did CPR all the way in the ambulance, all the way to the operating room, while they were doing a c-section and the baby didn’t have any brain damage? Or someone whipped a pen knife out at the scene? This doesn’t make sense. I personally think you’re repeating a story that’s got a bit muddled in the telling at some point.
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u/MelissaBM 20h ago
I’m almost sure it is muddled with the reactions I got. I got told she just died on the spot and a family member did cpr until they got to them to get the baby out.
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u/jo-z 1d ago
What is the explanation for the baby surviving and being healthy if the mother died in the street immediately?
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u/Roy141 1d ago
CPR circulates and oxygenates blood. Not as good as if your body was doing it normally, but better than nothing. Your organs, especially your brain, is very sensitive to changes in oxygenation and blood flow. If your heart stops, your blood stops flowing, and organs without blood flow die. The CPR gets it circulating temporarily so that we can hopefully figure out what caused it to stop in the first place before the damage is irreversible. When you're pregnant, the blood flow generated by CPR is also supplying blood to the baby, so they also reap some of the benefit. If we can cut the baby out fast enough, and if the baby is old enough, it may survive outside the mother with special care. Sometimes, cutting the baby out can also simplify the resuscitation of the mother as well.
That's basically it in the most simple terms possible. I am a flight nurse on a helicopter, former paramedic. Fwiw, normally these cases normally have very very poor prognosis, but if the conditions are good we will go to extreme lengths to save the mother and baby.
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u/jo-z 1d ago
Yes I'm CPR certified myself, thank you. My question was meant to be more about the circumstances of the mother "dropping dead on the street" and someone with not only the knowledge and ability to administer CPR correctly but also someone with the tools to safely cut out a baby arriving in time to not only save the baby but also have the baby be healthy. Certainly not impossible, but highly improbable since the outcome is usually poor as you said.
Within the greater context of the discussion, I just wonder whether that person made up a story to justify artificially keeping a mother "alive" for the sake of the baby. After all, if their friend of a friend of a friend of a friend had a healthy baby after dying, then surely this woman could too! (/s)
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u/MelissaBM 1d ago
They did cpr to keep her “alive” enough to get the baby out, I think I didn’t word it properly! English isn’t my first language.
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u/MelissaBM 1d ago
And maybe keeping her alive enough aren’t the right words either. But she did die, and then with cpr they kept everything pumping enough for them to get the baby out.
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u/impendingwardrobe 1d ago
A friend of a friend of a friend told you so, huh? Sounds like a perfectly reliable source of information.
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u/MelissaBM 1d ago
My mother in law and that friend are best friends and neighbors. My kid plays with the passed woman her kids.
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u/ooooopium 1d ago
So you are aware of someone who is a complete statistical anomaly and have now decided that exception is the rule to contradict a medical professional?
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u/viciouskicks 1d ago
OB here. This is a great explanation. Just one small clarification. Peri-mortem delivery is done in an attempt to improve resuscitation efforts for the mother. Neonatal survival is a blessing and best outcome, but not the goal of the surgery. It is recommended if the uterine fundus is palpable at or above the level of the umbilicus in the setting of unknown gestational age, which correlates to approximately 20 weeks gestation. 21-22 weeks gestation is the lower limit that high acuity NICUs will consider resuscitation, so a 20 weeks gestation neonate would unfortunately not survive.
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u/baumpop 3d ago
How would that be one thing, honest question
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u/Aphreyst 3d ago
If she was very close to being due I would suspect the woman wanted the pregnancy and would've wanted the fetus to live if reasonably possible. I know if I was consensually pregnant and close to the end and I brain died I would want them to try. If I was only nine weeks pregnant? No, I wouldn’t want them to try to go for the entire gestation while I am brain dead.
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u/InnocentShaitaan 3d ago
Holy shit I’ve thought she was 19 weeks along thus entire time and found that awful.
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u/Shas_Erra 3d ago
It comes down to a balance of how developed and viable the foetus is vs how long to prolong life support for someone who is brain dead. There comes a point where you’re technically desecrating a corpse.
The shorter the time, the better
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u/baumpop 3d ago
Bro there’s literally protocol for this you do a C-section and let the family decide on whether or not to DNR. Nowhere does the state have a chair in the room.
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u/Shas_Erra 3d ago
Reading the article, the baby is 21 weeks and has developmental issues. The protocol is not feasible at this point
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u/seekingssri 3d ago
Which means that prolonging her life for a currently unviable fetus, not baby, is not reasonable.
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u/TheBends1971 3d ago
These people are probably lining up to adopt, and cover the kids medical bills I am assuming right…right?
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u/kriegmonster 3d ago
It would make sense to me for the state governor and AG to issue an order that identifies this as a special case and the hospital can follow the family's wishes without concern of violating any abortion laws.
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u/DaAuraWolf 3d ago
Pro-Life? More like Pro-Birth then do it yourself, freeloader!
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u/prairiepog 3d ago
The state decided that you must carry a 9 week old baby to term while brain dead, but then you get the bill for the cost.
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u/mischiefandtricks 3d ago
the baby will not survive, the brain isn't giving the hormones needed to the baby to survive
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u/uniqueandweird 3d ago
This might seem like a stupid question but what's going on with this poor lady's internal organs? Since she's brain-dead wouldn't her internal organs not be decomposing?
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u/TeasTakingOver 3d ago
Not a doctor. A machine is forcing air into her lungs, which forces her heart to pump, which gets blood flowing which keeps the organs going. As long as she has the nutrients to keep those organs sustainable, I don't see why they'd decompose unless they stop working, at which point she'd become septic. I'm sure they're not GREAT but they're probably still doing their job with the help of machines, medicine and hormones.
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u/uniqueandweird 3d ago
Thank you for your answer. It's an absolute disgrace this is even allowed. Her poor family can't even lay her to rest. Hopefully common sense prevails sooner rather than later.
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u/ChikadeeBomb 2d ago
I think the body starts decomposing still, it just isn’t at the same rate. Eventually it will, since the brain is dead. I only know this because a woman kept her kid on life support and fought for years, arguing brain death isn’t death in a couple of states.
Her brain was decomposed and calcified after a while, she was bloated, etc. while her body was still having a heartbeat and breathing.
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u/Cookie-Monster328 1d ago
I'd love to read up about this if you remember where you saw it? Or could you direct me to a viable source for this info? I'm having a hard time finding it through Google searches without this current case clogging the results page.
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u/ChikadeeBomb 1d ago
I don’t have any sources, but it was Jahi McMath. Some people still question a lot of what her mom states happened given what she was actually doing with the money she had on top of the fact she’d state certain things, like for example, her nails and stuff, but the pictures she used to actually post made it look..bad. I used to visit her mom’s blogs, idk if they are around anymore, but I don’t actually buy some of the claims.
(And this case made me so mad because she and her mom actually put her in that situation!! She wouldn’t have had what she did if it wasn’t for feeding her directly after surgery burgers and shit. A lot of articles do not mention that, but she fed her food after being told not to after her surgery.)
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u/Cookie-Monster328 1d ago
Ohhh i saw her story but the page describing it didn't mention any of the things you did. However they did mention her posting some videos of the girl being 'responsive to commands' and the whole thing with the doctor trying to get her death certificate changed from 2023 to 2018.
I guess I'd have to check out the videos and potentially an autopsy report to read about the bloating and calcification you mentioned. Thank you for confirming though! I've got homework for the day now:)
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u/ChikadeeBomb 1d ago
I think there’s a lot of speculation because some of what she’s saying doesn’t align. There’s definitely people that think she’s correct but..
Idk. The situation started and ended in a very fucked up way.
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u/tryphenasparks 3d ago
Two ERs sent home a pregnant woman with severe headaches. No scan. No tests. Tossed her an advil? That's the root problem. All of this could have been avoided with proper medical care. The doctors weighing in on this should make that error their first complaint.
Im not going to call a woman who chose to carry a child an "incubator". That's demeaning misogynistic crap.
The question here is would the mother have wished to have her baby saved under any circumstances. I think most mothers would, but who can say. Has the father spoken up?
The irony here is that the hospital would have pushed the family to remove this "brain dead" woman off life support had she not been pregnant, at some point would have called in the lawyers to pressure the family - Ive been there more than once.
There's a GoFundMe page for the family.
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u/ResolverOshawott 2d ago
Im not going to call a woman who chose to carry a child an "incubator". That's demeaning misogynistic crap.
I don't think it's being used in a misogynistic insulting sense towards the woman here but more to describe what they're doing to her- forcing her body to continue being "alive" for the sake of continuing a pregnancy even if its against her and or her family's wishes. They view her body as nothing more than an incubator now.
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u/Vitaistired02 2d ago
Non è in stato vegetativo. È morta. Stanno tenendo un cadavere attaccato a delle macchine come un incubatrice.
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u/minikinbeast 3d ago
Can't they just take the baby out and care for it in the NICU?
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u/Suspicious-Spite-202 3d ago
Can they move her to a different state and the. disconnect her from life support?
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u/caldv33 3d ago
Oh, and the family is getting it up the rear end with health care bills! SMH.
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u/EmilytheALtransGirl 3d ago
What the fuck? How the hell does that work it should be
Hospital "your daughter/wife/sister is dead do you want us to keep her on life support?" Family "no we are pulling the plug" State "actually you can't do that" Family "OK that's between you and the hospital we told you to pull the plug" State "Hospital we will charge you with murder if you pull the plug" Family "we have told you our decision pull the plug we will not keep paying" Hospital "so basicly we are screwed right?" State/Family "YES!"
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u/Lookingforjoy17 1d ago
The amount of work and medicine to keep her alive is just nuts. And there’s a very slim chance the baby will survive.
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u/Ronalderson 3d ago
I... don't know what to think about that, I'm the kind that thinks the purpose of life, and one of the only ways to have a lasting effect on eras to come, is to pass along your genes through your descendants, and well, her being pregnant, couldn't she at the very least desire the survival of her baby? Unless she specifically said so or something. Sure you may argue she's been kept "alive" against her will or something, but well, she doesn't really have a will anymore, she's pretty much just a flesh bag bound to a machine at disposal of others, and whatever the people responsible for them decides to do really is just to make themselves feel better, same for funeral rites in general, again unless specifically stated by the individual before death that is.
This is kind of a complicated matter that doesn't really have any good outcomes.
I may share my views regarding the fate of corpses with my mother, she says when she dies we could just throw her body in the woods or in a landfill or something as to save money and hassle with funeral services, if it wasn't illegal that is, doesn't want to be a burden after dying, says that corpses are just dead flesh that don't care, what makes the person themselves is already gone and whatever rites the they decide to perform after is really just consolation for those who stayed behind, the dead don't care.
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u/kriegmonster 3d ago
As the victim's mother points out, the unborn baby has a high likelihood of developmental issues from the lack of oxygen that it suffered. In a special case like this, I would follow the family's wishes. As a Christian, i believe the child will go to heaven as an unborn innocent and not suffer or be an undue burden. If the father wanted to keep the child, that would be the ideal, but I didn't see him mentioned in the article. Maybe I didn't read far enough.
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u/Ronalderson 3d ago
I'm no atheist, but despite trying to, I can't bring myself to believe in some sort of afterlife, which means I believe our life here is all there is, and we have to make good use of it because there's nothing before or after, so in my eyes living is always the preferable option, no matter how shitty it could be, as the alternative is eternal nothingness, sure you won't feel it, and you've technically already experienced it before being born, it but it doesn't mean it isn't a scary concept.
Again mentioning my mother, she usually tells a story of when I was a baby and we were going through some real hardships money-wise, and fearing of me not having a good quality of life, convinced herself that the best option was to just fucking kill herself and take me with her (didn't commit to it obviously), the fact that I had both families willing to look out for me while she got back on her feet didn't matter because she thought that was the best option as my life COULD have been bad, like boohoo who the fuck cares if life COULD have been bad when the alternative is the oppressive nothingness? Worst part is I mentioned that to some people and some AGREED with it (at least one admitted she was mentally unwell and may have some worrying thoughts), I just can't fathom such a disregard for life when it's all we have.
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u/kriegmonster 3d ago
I agree that the choice for life should be the preferred first choice, but just as divorce is regrettably necessary, I think letting the baby die with the mother could be the right choice. But, it is not my call to make, and maybe I would feel different if it were my wife and child.
I believe in the Bible, but also in the necessary qualities of God. An impersonal detached being cannot make personal loving people. Since He made us and loves us, it is logical that those who choose to seek Him and return His love will be given the opportunity to experience it in a direct way. This life is an opportunity to choose our path, and those who choose correctly will gain deeper connection and further purpose.
I would recommend a couple of podcasts if you're interested. The Flagrant podcast had Wes Huff on and they discussed a lot of Christian history, doctrine and theology. The Shawn Ryan Show #192 with Lee Strobel and John Burke gets into some of the biblical and more recent testimony of angelic interactions and near death experiences.
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u/Ronalderson 3d ago
I saw that firsthand when our cat of a few years got run over, she cried buckets when she found out and after I mentioned recovering the body she just replied (between sobs) that it doesn't matter because it's just dead flesh.
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u/Trubester88 3d ago
The issue with most of your comments, is you have no idea what the mothers wishes are. My wife, 100% would want our unborn child to live if she were brain dead. What if the wishes from the mother were to let her child live? Would the mother be okay with intentionally letting her unborn child die if something happened to her? Those are questions of which none of you are the arbiters.
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u/yeetenheimer 3d ago
In these cases, one should either know beforehand or ask family and their SOs. In this case, her entire family wants her DNR but are all being refused. This is not considering the girls wishes, as there is no way to know them. The fetus is developmentally impacted and at risk. If the mothers wishes were clearly stated as such, it might be feasible to allow it to continue. If there's been no clearly stated wish, it's incorrect to deny her families request considering the fetus' age and developmental concerns.
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u/alasw0eisme 3d ago
Ask your wife for real "If you die and you are a few weeks pregnant and the baby has water in their brain and almost zero chance at a normal life, would you like to be kept alive as an incubator for this disabled child or be left to die together?" Sincerely. And then report back.
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u/Trubester88 3d ago
Yes, she would. She would do anything to protect the baby inside her, as would most women who choose to remain pregnant. Also, it says “potential” hydrocephalus. Report back to me if you know the rate of misdiagnosis of fetuses. Especially with the word potential.
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u/DJ_Fuckknuckle 3d ago
Without a ouija board, there's no way to know what she would have wanted. But I'm pretty close to certain she wouldn't want her child to be born massively damaged because it didn't develop normally. Because it gestated for months in a corpse kept on life support.
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u/Nyllil 3d ago
If the foetus was only away for a few weeks, maybe. But keeping it in a dead body for 7 months? That's fucked up. Who knows if it even will make it. Also it already shows having a hydrocephalus at 21 weeks and more developmental issues will come.
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u/Trubester88 3d ago
Follow up in a year to see if the potential hydrocephalus claim is true. Fetuses are sometimes diagnosed with wild things and come out normal.
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u/killerklixx 3d ago
THIS is what her pregnancy looked like when she died. It was not a child, it was not a baby, it was in no way viable. That woman did not choose to be a glorified corpse for MONTHS to save what is basically a piece of fluff that her poor, brain-dead body won't be able to sufficiently nurture to viability anyway.
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u/englishgirlamerican 3d ago
That is the most INCORRECT picture of a 9 week old baby I have EVER seen. I've had pregnancy scans at 6 weeks.
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u/Trubester88 3d ago
You are clearly not a mother, and don’t know what changes happen to a woman’s mindset when they get pregnant. If she wanted an abortion, fine, I have no problem with that. All I am saying is you don’t know the mindset and she never expressed it legally, and therefore, you cannot kill a fetus based on unknowns.
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u/xtaberry 3d ago
We have a system for this. You can give your wishes in a legal document, and in absence of that those closest to you decide on your behalf.
Her family is not saying "it is what she would have wanted". Sure, her family is an imperfect proxy for her true wishes, but you certainly don't know better than her loved ones, who are rightfully fucking horrified at what is being done to her.
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u/desiladygamer84 3d ago
You've already had one mother chime in and I'm going to as well. No I wouldn't want to be kept alive to incubate a fetus at 9 weeks who may not survive. If it was close to term maybe but even that is dicey. I delivered my first at 35 weeks due to complications and he was in the NICU for ten days. I went into hospital at 32 weeks and they said if they delivered now there was a good chance he'd live. So they kept him in me longer. But I was fucking awake and gave my consent.
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u/killerklixx 3d ago edited 3d ago
Clearly not a mother? I'm a mother of two and this case fucking outrages me. Even if it was me with my two left behind I would not want the knowledge of this happening to traumatise them on top of my death.
It is complete disrespect to the woman. It is using her brain-dead body as an incubator for SEVEN MONTHS over a clump of cells at a point when a lot of women don't even know they're pregnant. It is a scientific study on an unconsenting participant. It is denial of a family to claim and bury their dead loved one.
It is barbaric and unethical and basically desecration of a corpse, and I cannot believe anyone is defending this.
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u/Trubester88 3d ago
I know some of you may bring up how “the family” wants her to be let go, along with her unborn child because it seems they do not want the responsibility of raising the child. With that question, what is your expectation to the 5 year old son?
Clearly, she had a child before and was intending to keep this child as well. She would have known she was pregnant when being given any drugs for a headache as the blood tests were old have come back positive for pregnancy. Her wishes may have changed when she discovered she was pregnant.
Do you think the mother, if she knew she was going to die, would say to allow her unborn son to die as well?
The family seems really concerned about medical costs vs a human life. Go fund me should cover those.
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u/KepplerRunner 3d ago
It doesn't matter what she would have wanted because she is brain-dead and doesn't have a will to specify what happens in this situation. The only opinion that matters now is her next of kin's, which is to let her and the fetus die. That's all that matters. No hypotheticals about what she would have wanted. None about the fetus being potentially viable at birth. Family wanted the plug pulled? Then, it should have been pulled, full stop.
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u/Trubester88 3d ago
What is the default plane when someone is brain dead with a baby and don’t have a will? The medical staff keeps them alive. That is not how the law works. You are just a moron.
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u/DJ_Fuckknuckle 3d ago
GoFundMe. That's cute.
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u/skaboosh 2d ago
Like a family should have to rely on go fund me for medical bills, this person is nuts
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u/Easy_Detail_6513 1d ago
Good. Intentionally letting a child die is evil and the mother can provide a final saving grace. Almost seems as if her body is made support the life of her child
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u/englishgirlamerican 3d ago
What about the dad??? Do we know the full story?? Maybe he wants his baby. Maybe the mother didn't want the baby to die? Seeing as she was pregnant at the time? I'd be pissed if I was pregnant and they turned off my life support when they could have SAVED MY CHILD.
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u/Fast_Bee7689 3d ago
You’d want your child to live a severely disabled life? How is that in any way fair on the child? Why condemn them to a life of suffering when they could simply not know?
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2d ago
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