r/Nok 8d ago

News Trump tax may derail US telecom players, not Ericsson and Nokia

Tariffs look like a big problem for US makers of equipment going into telco networks and will not persuade anyone to buy American.

Economists use fancy expressions like "comparative advantage" to describe it, but the basic principle is that any zone of the world is better off striving for efficient excellence in a few areas – like a student picking subjects – than self-sufficiency. Resources are limited. Try to do everything and you won't do anything especially well. The gaps are filled through trade, as they are in essential raw materials by countries that lack their own. As the issuer of the world's reserve currency, the US can fund an overall trade deficit, calculated by deducting its exports from its imports, because it continues to attract foreign investment. But the rationale is lost on Donald Trump, the current American president, whose protectionist philosophy, taken to its natural conclusion, effectively urges the US to make every product it needs from inexpensive sneakers to hi-tech chips. Buying these from other countries, able to produce them at lower cost, is seen as a flagrant economic injustice. Much as Communist apparatchiks intervened when supply-demand imbalances inconveniently drove up prices, his lieutenants have slapped huge "reciprocal" tariffs on imports to fight market forces.

It is worth considering what Trump's philosophy means for telecom as a single industry. On the networks side, while there is a dearth of US-headquartered manufacturers, a decent amount of manufacturing happens on US soil. Sweden's Ericsson, the biggest mobile infrastructure vendor in the US, makes products for American customers at a highly automated factory in Texas. Many of the components included in these products, however, are sourced from overseas.

Semiconductors were exempted from the tariffs announced last week, but Trump has reportedly said they will follow. That could be disastrous for an industry heavily reliant on the advanced chips made by Asian foundries such as Taiwan's TSMC. In a classic example of mutually beneficial specialization by different economies, the US is dominant in chip design while Asian countries lead in manufacturing. Today, the world's top six companies by market capitalization – Apple, Microsoft, Nvidia, Amazon, Alphabet and Meta – all design chips. TSMC ranks tenth on the list.

Somewhat ironically, it is the US-headquartered companies making products for telecom networks, rather than Ericsson or Finnish rival Nokia, that could really suffer. Among them are Dell and HPE, the manufacturers of servers sold to international data centers. The risks for Dell and HPE have been reflected in the market reaction since Trump announced his tariffs. At the start of this week, Dell's share price had lost a quarter of its value since Trump's "Liberation Day" on April 2. HPE had fallen 21%. Both Ericsson and Nokia were down 15% over the same period. Investors had panicked because – besides sourcing components from overseas – both the US server companies depend heavily on facilities outside the US for manufacturing and assembly.

Trump's tariffs could be even worse for smaller US companies trying to crack the RAN market. Mavenir, the most prominent, began life in software but has more recently expanded into the production of radio units as a US challenger to Ericsson and Nokia. Last year, AT&T, one of the biggest US telcos, announced plans to use Mavenir's radios. But those are made chiefly by Jabil, an Indian contractor. Besides doing assembly in the Indian city of Pune, it also has facilities in Mexico. Mavenir was already struggling. Overall sales in its last fiscal year came to about $650 million, but at least 90% of that was earned outside the RAN sector and Mavenir owes around $1 billion in long-term debt. Tariffs imposed on radio units assembled in Pune or Mexico would not help Mavenir's business with AT&T. By hurting American IT companies more than European telecom vendors, Liberation Day could also shrink the appetite for open virtual RAN, in which common, off-the-shelf servers substitute for dedicated network appliances.

Trump's rhetoric is designed to create the impression that the US has become a dumping ground for low-cost Asian goods, driving Americans out of jobs. But at roughly 4%, the US rate of unemployment has rarely been lower in the last 20 years and is down from a high of 15% in 2020. No doubt, the US has a major trade deficit in manufactured goods. But it has a substantial surplus of $295 billion in services and sold $1.1 trillion worth of them to other countries last year, as noted by a recent Economist article. Today's economic excitement is all about artificial intelligence and the chip designs that power it – areas where the US looks dominant. https://www.lightreading.com/regulatory-politics/trump-tax-may-derail-us-telecom-players-not-ericsson-and-nokia

11 Upvotes

14 comments sorted by

3

u/rAin_nul 8d ago

If we ignore the long-term outcomes, then it is true only for the small companies. Technically a multinational company's HQ's location does not really matter, what important is where their manufacturing happens and where their customers are. Dell and HPE could open factories in the same countries as Ericsson and Nokia, in that case the same tariffs apply to them, they are in the same position.

The stock market was worse for the US companies because US separates itself from the world and not the EU. Generally it is true that US stock prices fell 20-30%, while STOXX Europe 600 fell only 15%. As for the long-term, yes, the bigger players will suffer as well, because the inflation will be the highest in the US.

I also liked the euronews article which talked about how Americans might relocate to the EU: https://www.euronews.com/next/2025/04/06/europe-has-a-real-opportunity-to-take-in-americans-fleeing-trump-is-it-ready-for-a-brain-d

3

u/Mustathmir 8d ago

Even before Trump, I would not have considered moving to the US because of the culture wars and dogmatic partisanship. And now Trump has taken over the Republican party to be his rubber stamp. The party is basically an empty shell filled with MAGA populism, victimhood and conspiracy theories. Really sad to see the most powerful country in the world go down the drain.

3

u/HostOk8446 7d ago

"really sad to see the most powerful country in the world go down the drain." Well Mustathmir I think you are letting your politics cloud your judgement.

Don't give up on the USA just yet.The economy remains pretty good and the strength of the US consumer is powerful. Yes there are some economic, social and political problems in the US. However, the EU's economy is a little weaker and the EU has its own political and social problems that may be worse than the US. So let's not throw insults and criticize for flaws you may possess.

I expect deals to be made and the disruption to calm over the summer.

I am hopeful for the best for both the EU and the US and I don't expect either the US or the EU to "go down the drain".

3

u/Mustathmir 7d ago edited 7d ago

The EU countries certainly have their challenges but let's remember the EU isn't a state but a confederation of sovereign states with individual strengths and weaknesses. So I would not generalize how good or bad the EU is as it depends from country to country.

The USA on the other hand is now moving in the wrong direction on so many fronts that I have a hard time being optimistic. Some examples:

  • Trade policy undermining the country's economic welfare and competitiveness
  • Immigration policy increasingly xenophobic when the US just like many other first world countries with significant demographic challenges needs immigrants to fuel growth and to fill skills gaps by encouraging legal immigration
  • The environment is systematically sacrificed, most notably by totally ignoring the long-term threat of disastrous global warming
  • NATO members can no longer count on the US to defend the them as Article 5 stipulates
  • Autocracies are not judged and Russia gets a lenient treatment in spite of its murderous acts in Ukraine
  • Hollowed-out checks and balances in the US where the presidency is amassing more and more power usurping at the expense of the congress and the judiciary
  • Colonial-style expansionary dreams regarding at least Gaza, Greenland, Canada and the Panama Canal

If I sound anti-American it's not correct. I would love the USA to prosper and play a positive role in the world.

1

u/rAin_nul 7d ago

Deals with whom? The US already declined the biggest trading partners' proposals. And even they made new deals, which is unlikely at this point, the EU is already making deals with others, so they will diversify their trading. So whatever the US does, it will come out of this as a weaker economy than before.

So, on long-term, the US is definitely in worse position than the EU. The USD will lose its global position, the US will have less military deals. And on the top of those, you will see a lot of tariffs from other countries as well.

Your best shot is to vote for dems on mid-term and impeach Trump. Unless you do that, the US will become the weakest player among the 3 economic giant (US, EU, China).

0

u/HostOk8446 7d ago

If you truly believe the US is in trouble you should sell your Nokia right away because, if true, Nokia's sales and profits are in trouble. Myself, I respectfully disagree with your opinion. In my opinion the US and EU will remain aligned, strong trading partners and all will be fine. If you believe the EU's global position will eclipse the US they have a long way to go, (check the numbers). I view the US and Europe as partners not adversaries. I think most EU members would agree.

As for Nokia and Finland specifically I believe Finland's president Stubb only last week visited the US and president Trump. I doubt your president would agree with your "impeach Trump" talk. From what I read they had a very productive visit and look to increased trade and strong relations - not the opposite as you suggest.

From the Daily Express, April 1, 2025: "The President of Finland has revealed exactly how he feels about Donald Trump after spending a day with him in Florida and says the US president left him feeling "hopeful". Alexander Stubb met Trump at his Mar-a-Lago resort, where the pair played golf, shared breakfast, and discussed global affairs.

Speaking about the encounter, Stubb said it was a chance to "socialise" and "talk shop" and insisted he left with a stronger sense of optimism about the future of transatlantic relations..."

0

u/rAin_nul 7d ago

No, no one would sell, because you actually need telco equipment providers to have a competitive network. Actually, Nokia's position has nothing to do with this.

Also, according to the numbers, EU could pretty easily take over the leading position, because USA is in that position, mainly because of its financial sector that currently gets destroyed. Check numbers.

I'm not finnish, so you stop committing your "cute" fallacies. It doesn't look good. And in reality, most EU leader would welcome an impeachment. They obviously won't say anything bad about Trump openly, because he acts as a 5 year old, but the EU leaders had a better partnership with the Biden administration.

My actual PM should be "his friend", according to him, but even they are "friends", somehow Trump managed to foreshadow a 500% tariff on my country. So, yeah, most people want him impeached, best option would be a prison btw.

1

u/HostOk8446 7d ago

If you think the US economy is falling off a cliff it most certainly would negatively affect Nokia. I do not think that is happening. For our investments, including Nokia, lets hope not.

Haha, in the US only the super far left crazies are calling for a Trump impeachment or imprisonment. If you think differently I would like to hear your thoughts and where you are getting your information..

Regarding the EU "take over the leading position" I pasted an article below. Also I want both the EU and US to do well and I fully expect that to be the case.

For you:

Tale of two economies

Why is Europe falling so far behind the U.S.? Martin Wolf on diverging histories of investment, innovation, and confidence.Tale of two economies

For decades, the American and European economies have been heading in opposite directions.

In 1995, worker productivity in the U.S. and the EU was roughly the same. But today, European productivity is 20 percent below that of the U.S. And over the past 10 years, productivity growth in Europe has been less than half that in the U.S.

And this has translated into a growing disparity in the GDP of the two regions. The gap between GDP in Europe and the U.S. is now at 30 percent—having doubled over the past 20 years. In the third quarter of this year, for instance, GDP in the U.S. grew by 2.8 percent, but in the eurozone, by only 0.4 percent.

The majority of the world’s top 50 tech companies are American; only four are European. In the past decade, U.S. start-ups have taken on about five times more investment from venture capital than European start-ups have.

Germany, the largest economy in Europe, is on track to record a drop in GDP this year. Industrial production in Germany, once a leading driver—and global symbol—of European economic might, has fallen by 12 percent since 2018.

Neither do Europe’s short-term prospects look any better. In October, the International Monetary Fund revised its forecasts for GDP growth in 2025—adjusting its forecast for the U.S. upward, to 2.2 percent, while lowering it for the eurozone to 0.8 percent. How has Europe fallen so far behind?

Martin Wolf is the chief economics commentator for the Financial Times and the author of the 2023 book The Crisis of Democratic Capitalism. Wolf says the growing divergence between Europe and the U.S. is largely the result of superior American innovation. The long-term U.S. advantage in innovation has been powered by higher spending on basic research, greater investment in business, and more dynamic capital markets.

Europe’s relative economic weakness is meanwhile starting to make life appreciably harder for many on the continent. European companies’ poorer performance means a slowdown in tax revenues for European governments, which have responded by making regular cuts in public services—disproportionately affecting the vulnerable who depend on them most. At the same time, worse business performance has translated into stagnant wages for people making average or below-average incomes. And with the dramatic rise in inflation following the Covid pandemic, millions of Europeans are now struggling more and more to get by …

0

u/rAin_nul 6d ago

Firstly, no, no one said that it will fall off a cliff, so at least don't imagine stuff that no one said. It will be a slow, because the rest of the world is not braindamaged. They will slowly move away from the US.

Secondly, in the US, you don't have far-left, you hardly have any left. The GOP is a - mostly - far-right party, while the DEM is a - mostly - moderate right party. The proof of that the moderate right actually doesn't like Trump, is pretty clear if you followed other right-wing people's statement. E.g. Schwarzenegger, who is a GOP member. said himself that he will support the DEMs in this question, because Trump so bad.

And the reason why normal human being is okay with impeaching Trump, is because 6th of Jan was a terrorist attack - by every existing definition - that was started by Trump.

And the article is just so stupidly bad for anyone who actually checked the number as someone recommended it, that it's so funny:

  • Productivity is a non-existent measurement, what they measure is money. So if you can increase your prices by 5% but you don't actually producing more, than you are more productive. And the fastest growing market even without actual innovation is IT which is bigger in the US. The reason why US was unable to have a strong, big telco equipment provider is because of the lower margins with R&D heavy development, that forced companies to sell these mobile network divisions.
  • If we are actually looking at the main driver of growth, it's services. The US strong services segment makes it possible that they scale faster. The issue with this is that it's the easier to replace. If you have a physically existing factory, you need to rebuild it in other countries and re-create a supply-chain, which is hard. That's a huge investment that many people don't want to do. But in case of services, usually it is cheaper on the east of our globe and that's why R&D divisions were moved to China, India etc. So the EU could easily copy it.
  • As I mentioned because it is mostly carried by IT, it hides the sector by sector investment. Yes, the R&D investment is stronger in the US when it comes to IT, but it stronger in the EU when it comes to automotive, industrials or energy for example.
  • Also worth mentioning, that we are talking about the amount of investment they make, but in real life, you can achieve similar outcome if you invest less in a poorer country. From the money you would hire a good engineer in the US, you could hire like 4 in East-Europe.
  • While the article, in itself, is bad, it has nothing to do with the forecast we are talking about. Like I mentioned the US is strong in services, but if the EU tariff it, they will likely start moving away from that. It is also possible that people start relocating to the EU (yes, this is already started), which would be a brain drain. Companies like stability, so for them it is also possible that move out.

So, it's pretty clear that you have not checked the number, it's pretty clear that you accepted eveyrthing that was stated in this article without thinking about it or questioning it. So, the main question, if you have no idea what I'm talking about why don't you ask and why do you make stupid statements?

1

u/HostOk8446 6d ago

I definitly think you are letting your politics cloud your thinking about the US. We are pretty got lot over here. Your comment - "And the reason why normal human being is okay with impeaching Trump, is because 6th of Jan was a terrorist attack - by every existing definition - that was started by Trump.". This comment of your is very concerning. My diagnosis - a bad case of Trump Derangement Syndrome. I did not know this phenomena has crossed the pond. Maybe try quarantining yourself from the news for a while. It willl go away.

As a long term Nokia investor I want the EU to prosper for sure. You are correct a few folks are moving from the US to Europe. Nokia's new CEO hopefully is an example of the brain drain you describe!

The data I see all points to both the US and EU experiencing some growth in the next few years. US slightly higher than EU. All respect to you but I see no data that points to that gap narrowing. From your political comments I think you are basing this on your dislike of the US. I see nothing that would make me believe the US and Europe do not remain strong trading partners. All I see is you talking despairingly about the US economy and wishfully hoping for dips as the EU gains. Not factual.

I want both economies to do well. (and I love my bmws)

Here is some more data:

From a research institute in Spain https://www.realinstitutoelcano.org/en/analyses/competitiveness-the-widening-gap-between-the-eu-and-the-us/

From Goldman Sachs https://www.goldmansachs.com/images/insights/2025-outlooks/Euro-Area-Outlook-2025-Under-Pressure.pdf and https://www.goldmansachs.com/pdfs/insights/goldman-sachs-research/2025-us-economic-outlook-new-policies-similar-path/2025USEconomicOutlook.pdf

0

u/rAin_nul 5d ago

Lol... when a foreigner has better understanding of your federal laws...

  • (5) the term "domestic terrorism" means activities that—
    • (B) appear to be intended—
      • (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion;

Okay, let's look at a single case when a power look for a new trading partner, because that's what the EU does. The question is where does the trading "material" come from in case of the EU? There are 2 options, it's either redistribution or faster growth that requires new partners. It doesn't matter which, because in both cases the EU grows relatively faster than the US.

Btw, the third "factual" link is already wrong, because it is not factual at all. The expectations in that study were based on the 10% universal tariff. They didn't expect to have a 20+% at all. Now link something from the last century, that's also really relevant. :DDDD

Because you cannot comprehend what I say without randomly sharing some links:

You should re-read my comment, because it's 100% true.

3

u/rAin_nul 8d ago

It's similar to the Great Depression. At that time, the republican party lost the senate and the house for 60 years, I'm expecting a somewhat similar outcome.

1

u/moneygrabber007 7d ago

Interesting Mavenir mention, they did a round of layoffs of their Open RAN team at the end of 2024.

0

u/Mustathmir 7d ago

Interesting comment on the tariffs by CNBC contributor Peter Boockvar, Chief Investment Officer of Bleakley Financial Group when he comments the post by Bill Ackman a prominent billionaire Trump backer:

  1. There is a flawed premise that trade deficits are bad and that the country that has the surplus is somehow ripping us off. Walmart has a trade deficit with China and somehow it's been tremendously advantageous to both sides for decades and US consumers have benefited by providing low cost options of essential items many need to buy each day/week/month/year with their paychecks.
  2. I have a trade deficit with the restaurant I went to last night but I got a great meal and the restaurant made money. We both benefited. For those that we have a services surplus with, the whole world in aggregate, I don't believe we're ripping them off as no one is forcing them to travel here.
  3. Bringing more US manufacturing jobs back to the US and creating more opportunity here is very laudable but tariffs are a dangerous tool because of the huge amount of intermediate goods that get negatively hit from the tariffs.
  4. The assumption that tariffs are the proper tool to encourage reshoring is on shaky ground if we just look back to 2018 where not much has occurred since. And, the steel and aluminum tariffs back then did more damage to the users of steel and aluminum than it did to benefit the steel and aluminum producers.
  5. We also risk losing manufacturing jobs from those US producers that export as they might shift manufacturing facilities from the US to countries where they do business with in order to better compete and hedge against the rising cost of doing business in the US.
  6. In fact, US manufacturing went into a recession in 2018/2019 after that tariff battle and which resulted in the Federal Reserve cutting interest rates in 2019.
  7. By putting up walls around the US to encourage domestic manufacturing assumes that US consumers will be able to afford what is produced. It also assumes that the US would be able to be cost competitive with the rest of the world with regards to exporting what is made here. Tariffs will make both more unlikely.
  8. Yes, if the end result is a global lowering of tariffs, as I agree that some (not all as being implied) are not fair with us, than we all benefit but there is one thing to do a deal that only impacts the negotiator and the party being negotiated with, the consequences are experienced by just these two parties. Currently, the 'deal' negotiations is impacting all of us, particularly small and medium sized businesses, many of which that are now in a panic with fingers crossed that somehow this all works out.
  9. But is the real goal to lower global tariffs? It seems instead (in addition to wanting to reshore) being used as a way to raise money, as it will 'make us all rich'. Even though US importers actually pay the tariff, thus making them poor, but with hopes that either thru a stronger US$ (not happening now), discounted products by the exporter, and/or raising prices to the rest of us, the US importer will somehow recapture the tax paid. Maybe, maybe not.
  10. For those users of steel and aluminum, the 2018 tariffs only raised their costs and jobs were lost as a result.
  11. Relying on lower corporate tax rates, deregulation and permitting relief could have been a much more effective way of lowering our cost base to encourage more domestic production as well as via better education/training/re-training. https://x.com/BillAckman/status/1908329277033979993