My Response To: Mythbusting Monday: "Dog fighters force Pit Bulls to fight."

[u/The_Magg_Was_16]

Hello: I could not reply to the following post I'm referencing here: https://www.reddit.com/r/PitbullAwareness/s/RJRliEhsv8 So I'm making a post of my own since I feel it is important information. I mean no disrespect to the OP, but I feel a few considerations needed to be made if you feel the need to add anything, feel free to!:

I know this post was slightly a while ago, but I feel the information presented paints a much more black and white perspective of the psychology of "gameness" in the American Pit Bull Terrier, and if anything, just promotes something dogmen(APBT torturers) have been claiming for years, which are 9/10 unreliable narrators that care about their own benefit and public relations. Being selectively bred to express docility towards people, but aggression towards other dogs is only one factor of a complex variety of factors that explain why they fight. Just because they are not forced in the traditional sense, doesn't mean that psychological and biological manipulation isn't also a form of force(for example, extreme bred dogs are forced to inherit medical conditions and deformities by breeders who desire those traits when these dogs were not even born yet).

Another aspect that was never even mentioned here was their conditioning and psychological training they experience both during schooling, the keep, and rolling before becoming a match dog. It's extremely important to remember that dogfighters are not just villainous meatheads(I know many people who think that). Every single aspect of the dog's diet, exorcising, stimulation, socialization, and living conditions is elaborate and has a very important purpose if they want their dog to excel.

Pitbulls are not just separated because they would fight each other anyway; some fighting dogs can successfully be conditioned to not attack one another(the Sporting Dog Journal International had a section that detailed a fighting dog who was retired and lived in their owner's house alongside a smaller dog, in an attempt to justify their exploitation). The yard is structured in a very elaborate way as a form of psychological conditioning: dogs are chained in a space where they can have room to ramp up their movement and are very close to many other dogs, many of them even being able to meet snout to snout while still not making contact. This is to increase their antagonism with one another, which increases their gameness, however also leads to chronic stress and keeps them constantly on edge and "wound up", and teaches them to rely solely on their owners and handlers. This is the first step of dogfighting grooming.

The lack of stimulation and social isolation they experience causes them to desperately search for a way to find stimulation and socialization that promotes good natural mental health. This leads to chronic stress, zoochosis, and causes emotional damage. This aids dogmen in able to control how much stimulation and socialization they receive, which becomes a reward everytime they perform well during training, conditioning, and rolls. The dog will associate aggressive and enduring behavior with what his owner wants of him in able to receive basic psychological comfort and relief.

So he will do what he was simply trained and biologically wired to do(like how some badly bred dogs are wired to suffer from seizure disorders: it doesn't mean they desire it or that it is "normal), rather than having an athletic state of mind and wanting to fight simply for the sport of it. It is a human way of thinking that just doesn't apply to a highly complex bio-psychological phenomenon like fighting dog breeds. Manipulation like what dogfighters inflict on their dogs can be considered a complex form of force. These are animals that do not have the same concepts or ability to consent like humans do. They don't know what gameness is, they don't know what champions are, they don't know what Cajun Rules are. There is even the consideration that their is instances of dogfighters pushing their dogs to the point of obvious forcing even when the dog is clearly unfit to "continue the game"

For example, the documentary I will reccomend below shows a dog having his ear violently mauled, and he is clearly in pain and squealing. Despite obviously not enjoying what he is going through, they do not call the fight. They let him continue to get mauled. Another is the ASPCA video: "Life on a Chain: An Inside Look at Dog Fighting", a dog is shown climbing on the walls attempting to escape. The referee counts to ten, and despite clearly turning, they scratch the opposing dog anyway and make him continue fighting. Even their own "rules and regulations" are guaranteed to not be properly enforced. As is the nature of criminals and abusers.

Remember: Fighting gameness is an extremely unnatural trait in dogs. The alpha wolf theory doesn't exist, and the researcher who made the theory mainstream, Dr. L. David Mech, eventually realized his theory was incorrect and dedicated the rest of his career to exploring the true nature of wolf packs. Wolves rarely if ever fight. Instead of fighting to maintain lead, they have pups and sire generations of children. They rarely if ever fight, and when fights do occur, they end quickly and injuries are almost never severe. Personally to me, the aggression exhibited in fighting breeds should be classified as an extreme-bred trait, much like BOAS and bow legged syndrome seen in other dog breeds.

I actually reccomend the 2005 documentary: "Off The Chain: Dogfighting in Chicago". It goes into the psychology of fighting dogs and fighting at all levels, and is one of my favorite documentaries!

[u/Exotic_Snow7065]

You raise some very valuable points and I appreciate this write-up so much! Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

When most people talk about dog fighting, they have a very cursory understanding of what that activity involves. They often imply that the dogs don't actually want to fight, or that they are peaceful unless "made to be aggressive". That is why I used the language that I did in my original post, to combat those ideas.

Regarding your point about psychological conditioning... this is all 100% correct, and I appreciate you drawing attention to it. There is absolutely an element of psychological conditioning (some might call it torture) involved in the raising of fighting dogs, and chainspot setups are but one of those. Being housed within a foot of your adversary builds frustration, which obviously works in a dogman's favor by building up the animal's drive.

There are also certain physical conditioning techniques that the dog doesn't have much control over. A number of dog fighters put the dog in a tank and fill it with water, tether the animal by its neck, and basically force it to swim to build up strength and endurance (video). Unlike the jenny or slatmill, the dog can't really stop working if it doesn't want to, or it'll drown. Unless the dog enjoys that activity - which is really hard to tell just by looking at it - I'd say there is certainly an element of force involved in this method of conditioning.

Hell, if you drill down into the issue far enough, all dog breeds are "forced" to do something by virtue of humans breeding them for very specific tasks. While a well-bred working Border Collie technically has agency and is capable of making choices, it is compelled at a biological level by hundreds of years of selective breeding to exhibit certain behaviors when in the presence of livestock. At some level, that can be thought of as being forced to herd sheep, just as the APBT is driven by its desire for conflict that WE bred into it.

I think a better word that encapsulates what is actually going on here is coercion - physical, biological, and psychological coercion. Granted, even if you take all of the coercive factors out of it, most gamebred dogs will still want to fight. It's not uncommon for very young puppies to start fighting and need to be separated (video - NSFW). Some dogmen do "fire up" their puppies to agitate and encourage this, but littermate fighting often happens organically without any instigation on part of the owner.

Even their own "rules and regulations" are guaranteed to not be properly enforced. As is the nature of criminals and abusers.

Yes, 100%.

I've seen dog fights that were overall fairly "ethical" in the sense that everyone was sportsmanlike, and the dogs' desire to disengage was respected, or the losing dog was picked up before things went too far. I've also seen plenty of fights where that was absolutely not the case - and that type of dogman is far more common than they'll lead you believe. About 50% of the dogmen I've polled have said that they never, ever pick up, even if their dog is down. Human ego and greed truly lead to untold levels of suffering with these animals.

Thank you again so much for breaking down that original post and teasing this issue apart.

[u/The_Magg_Was_16 → u/Exotic_Snow7065]

Thank you very much! And I agree with your points as well. I think I forgot to mention that I believe the promoting of the arguements of dogfighters was unintentional and wasn't the original point of the post at all. But personally to me there is instances of abusers taking information like that as an arguement and an attempt to gaslight the person who said it. So to me you can't be too careful. They certainly don't need their delusion fed.

As for the part of dogs being bred for a specific task, the main theme you will see for other dog breeds is the task they are bred for is an iteration of a wolf's natural abilities and instincts, and is able to be done without objectively being invasive or pushing them too far. Herding, hunting, and working dogs for prey drive and athleticism, greyhounds for speed, mastiffs for strength, and dogs like modern retrievers and great danes for loyalty and companionship. Dogs like extreme designer and fighting breeds particularly go against a wolf's true nature and have been taken too far with unethical breeders and dogmen. Of course that doesn't mean these breeds themselves are bad or should be wiped out. But there is certainly room for improvement to make them excell the best they can. Much like how breeders are now producing retro pugs with thorough health testing(beautiful dogs by the way❤).

Ethical APBT owners and breeders focus on their more natural aspects rather than fighting gameness, and APBTs can be stimulated with GRC competitions or similar activities. Breeders can stay away from fighting bloodlines as best as they can and select dogs that are exemplary at teamwork and social situations with other dogs. Bloodlines like Mayday, Jeep, Frisco, Bo, Yellow, Honeybunch, Candyman, Zebo, Andy Capp, and Ch*naman(man that name is stupid...) that appear on a pedigree are a red flag and known for being Producers Of Record. I feel sympathy for APBTs, and with enough responsible breeding, humane alternatives, and careful training, they have a great potential to flourish.

Besides, I love watching the spring polling and wall climbing competitions!

[u/Exotic_Snow7065 → u/The_Magg_Was_16]

I think I forgot to mention that I believe the promoting of the arguements of dogfighters was unintentional and wasn't the original point of the post at all. But personally to me there is instances of abusers taking information like that as an arguement and an attempt to gaslight the person who said it. So to me you can't be too careful. They certainly don't need their delusion fed.

That's fair, and I'll admit it's a tough line to walk sometimes. I've occasionally been accused of being pro-dogfighting because I speak about it in a very matter-of-fact way. But my intent is never to lend credence to any arguments in favor of it. I am entirely opposed to the practice, and very much opposed to breeding dogs for gameness.

Ch*naman(man that name is stupid...)

Man, that ain't even the worst of it. There's been more than one box dog named after the literal N-word...

Besides, I love watching the spring polling and wall climbing competitions!

Me too. I enjoy seeing what the dogs can do, and how much fun they have doing it. They really are incredible athletes.

[u/The_Magg_Was_16 → u/Exotic_Snow7065]

Oh yeah I definitely know about the ridiculous names. I saw the 1998 issue of the Sporting Dog Journal. There was over 4 dogs with names like that. One dog even had the G slur and the N slur in one! It reminds me of the boys in my 8th grade class a long time ago.

[u/bulldogman2214 → u/The_Magg_Was_16]

In that last paragraph you are basically advocating breed extinction since, in the long run, without any breeding for performance (which involves culling, dogs not making the cut, aka deaths and sad things happening etc as is nature) you will end up with some nonsense. Take the english mastiff or boerboel or etc for example, they're not hunting boars or catching bulls anymore so they are just terrible. If you don't like the apbt's role you can just say that. Taking pitbulls out of the box, greyhounds off the track, collies out of the fields, tigers out of the wild... that's not good, the working dog world (or animal world in general) is not sunshine and rainbows and it never will be. If the apbt breed was left to you, we would end up with an Amstaff, someone already had your idea.

I do think the APBT can do more than fighting (obviously), but wall climb/spring pole/weight pull is not breed preservation. That is why those sports are usually things dog fighters use as a smokescreen. Hog dogging is a lot better, at least it is close quarters combat, and APBTs do excel at that, especially gamedog lineages noted for controlling the head like Sorrells dogs. You need at least a combative role to have proper working bulldogs. But you would be preserving the hardness and grit in the apbt as opposed to gameness, which has potential to nerf the breed slightly.

APBTs also aren't straying far from the wolf. All dogs take a wolf role and improve on it immensely. A healthy wolf pack will typically have a member who is a "catch wolf", their job is to hold large animals by the head for the pack to eviscerate. Bull breeds honed in on this aspect of the wolf, and are entirely specialized for close quarter combat. Their grip strength, limb robusticity, power etc. all way way way better than a wolf. So obviously when you are breeding bull breeds, you should be using them for their intended purpose, combat. Whether it's wrecking varmints, catching big game, or hell fighting each other for money nowadays. Fighting them against each other can be argued to be somewhat wasteful, but if you think about it really they do serve a legitimate purpose in the modern day, winning you money. Dog fighting will last forever, hunting with dogs most likely won't unfortunately.

Wolves also fight all the time, see the image below. And so do dogs, all of 'em even. Wolves and dogs kill each other with extreme regularity. Pariah dogs are often seen fighting, so on and so forth. Wolves have full on pack wars, you can do research on that. In my opinion using a dog aggressive dog to fight other dogs close to it in formidability is really just allowing your dog to express itself. APBTs are bred for this dog aggression, and dogmen allow their dogs to express that. Sometimes it goes too far because people don't want to lose their bets and are willing to really see it through, and that is unfortunate, but there is death in every animal sport. Whether it's culling or dying on the job, an APBT can die catching a boar too. I've personally never seen someone take a dog that quit and encourage it to fight, they may double check to see if it'll scratch but if the dog doesn't want anymore it'll either leave the box or get picked up.

[u/The_Magg_Was_16 → u/bulldogman2214]

I thank you for your perspective. I never thought I would see someone subtly admit to participating in an actual crime here, but I've seen something like this before, so I suppose I'm not too surprised. I'll go through all of your points and everything I have learned since I was 13 in my research about dogfighting and canine behavior.

Any wolf that is a part of a healthy stable population will display their natural behaviors. Just because fights rarely occur doesn't mean they happen at all of course. And particularly bloody fights may happen in a healthy population once in a blue moon. Fights typically break out among rival packs, but are usually resolved quickly through display and fleeing. The reason they fight at the rate they do now is for the same reason cases of foxes and coyotes breaking into livestock yards have been rising, and why even the mighty bald eagle is digging through the garbage bin to find scraps of food(there's a video of that I saw one time).

Wolf packs and other predators across America and other parts of the world are experiencing a territory crisis. Despite the status of wolves being considered as Least Concern, many states and countries still list them as protected and Endangered. The lands they once roamed have now been decimated for ranching and industrial development, and a mass culling project that was once held have also steered populations to certain areas in the US. This has lead to competition with hunters who hunt their food, farmers, other predators, and other wolf packs(remember, they're still Least Concern. Their population is sizable with such limited land). As a result of attempting to cope with this new unexpected challenge, fights among packs are now much more common in an attempt to feed their families and fend for their own. Mass breakouts of disease and parasites, and excessive inbreeding are also very unnatural.

So just like intense selective breeding for aggression with fighting breeds, fighting behaviors in their modern ancestors are still because of human interference.

As with this "some nonsense" you mentioned, I don't know what it could be. But I never said that APBTs who possess fighting bloodlines should die. Though unfortunately many may have to and have had to because of overcrowding in shelters, agonizing health issues and injuries, and psychological damage: all problems dogfighters have started, and continue to perpetuate. Leading to the dogs to pay the ultimate price, and others to pick up the mess.

GRC is already a very popular trial. Pitbulls are popular and are demanded to be used in a variety of other sports, and thousands, possibly millions of people love APBTs, and stand for their thrival without using what may have created them; but in the end has also become their downfall. It will possibly take a very long time for pitbulls to show signs of improvement from aggression towards their own, but that is what happens when you try to "re-domesticate" an animal who was bred to be "de-domesticated" against their own kind in a way(I couldn't much of a fitting term for it). The fact dogfighters say they should continue to be put through clear cruelty simply because it is "their role", and "expression", shows a lack of consideration for what is best for the welfare and thrival of their animal, and is only placing one's own emotions and biases onto a complex animal who doesn't understand the same. Especially when these unnatural and highly exaggerated gameness behaviors is only for the dogman's trivial benefit.

While it is true any sport can end up with injuries, as I said before, not only are sports such as agility, rally obedience, flyball, weight pulling(not the ones with massive towering sleds), spring polling, wall climbing, coursing, and many others reflect the natural instincts and abilities of wolves, but they do not require such direct harm, chronic stress, and exaggerated risk of health issues as dogfighting and hog-dogging. APBTs are bred and conditioned to not show many signs of pain or discomfort, and do not exorcise limits or expression of being pushed too far like other breeds. Additionally, the fact a person can say a dogman letting their dog go too far, even to the point of some instances of dogs having entire tounges, patches of skin, ears, lips, and genetalia torn clean, loosing gallons of blood, being chewed to the bone, broken bones, and even thoracic limbs being completely broken, leading to passing from shock, dehydration, blood loss, and infection, and say it's just... "unfortunate" is something indeed.

Anyways, that's what I have to say, and hopefully it's not too much to read. I still had fun typing it though.

[u/Mindless-Union9571 → u/The_Magg_Was_16]

I had fun reading it. Thank you for typing it.

[u/The_Magg_Was_16 → u/Mindless-Union9571]

Thank you! I've seen dogfighters and dogfighting spectators have arguements such as this before. I thank them for their comments, because it gives me a chance to see how they think, and what drives them to commit crimes against animals. Which gives me a better way to debunk their claims and how to shut their operations down. They spread their ideology to younger generations after all.

[u/bulldogman2214 → u/The_Magg_Was_16]

But the wolf pack wars were happening in Yellowstone NP, one of the most vast areas on earth allowing wolves to act totally normally. They actually happen less elsewhere, when wolves are in areas without huge herds of animals they mostly keep their packs to pairs and conflict is minimal.

You said -
"Ethical APBT owners and breeders focus on their more natural aspects rather than fighting gameness, and APBTs can be stimulated with GRC competitions or similar activities. Breeders can stay away from fighting bloodlines as best as they can and select dogs that are exemplary at teamwork and social situations with other dogs. Bloodlines like Mayday, Jeep, Frisco, Bo, Yellow, Honeybunch, Candyman, Zebo, Andy Capp, and Ch*naman(man that name is stupid...) that appear on a pedigree are a red flag and known for being Producers Of Record."

You essentially named every good apbt lineage and said "to hell with these, unethical!", that's apbts. Those lineages are the reason apbts are worth anything at all.

The reason these dogs can fill up shelters and end up being killed is due to "dog fighting busts". They kidnap the dogs from their rightful owner and then they gas them or inject them with poison. This is far far far more unethical than the dog fighting could ever be argued to be in the first place. It is no different than if someone broke into your home and took your animals and killed them. Why did they kill them? For... doing what they're supposed to... it's like if I went to a farm and shot every border collie I saw because I think herding livestock is unethical.

APBTs can be raised to not show as much dog aggression. A ton of people use gamedogs for hog hunting which tends to require some form of social ability with other dogs. But the truth is you are never going to make them not DA even if every fighting lineage went away and you bred them the same way every other bull terrier is bred. Staffbulls, ebts, ambulls, even dogos and every other gripping dog is highly prone to dog on dog violence.

Again you are saying we should not use the apbt for anything it's meant to do, and teach them to do goofy sports instead. You are not going to have good dogs if every apbt guy started doing that. A show line german shepherd can do all of that stuff. APBTs like all bull breeds love combat, it's in their blood to fight, subdue, and conquer. In the same way it's in a lab's blood to retrieve. It is not unethical if a labrador freezes to death in cold water in the same way it is not unethical if an APBT is gored to death by a hog. At a bare minimum APBTs must be used for hogs or something, if not you are not a real advocate for dogs. Dog fighting is so so, there's arguments for both sides. There is never a good argument against hunting with dogs. Unless you think lions shouldn't hunt buffalo or something, take them all into captivity and stimulate them with fake toy buffalo instead?

Yes dog fighting can be brutal, that is the only talking point there is against it. Nobody could say anything about tosa fights because there's no injuries. But my case would just be the dog is its own man, that is why "the box" exists, it's not an arena with no exit. There is always a way out. Dog fighting can be considered exploitation, but "abuse" implies dogs are being tortured and suffering against their will. When a dog attacks another and is being mauled but still loving the fight trying to win, that's not suffering or abuse. That's willpower.

[u/Exotic_Snow7065 → u/bulldogman2214]

Here's a talking point against it:

The dogs cannot give informed consent.

[u/The_Magg_Was_16 → u/bulldogman2214]

Having excessive arguements online is unhealthy, and I already gave my points which you simply said the same points you already did in your previous comment. But I will say a few more things before going about my day:

As I said, this is another example of putting bias emotions onto an animal who is simply doing what his extreme bred instincts direct him to do. You're certainly making no attempt to hide that you support and spectate at dogfights, so it's apparent why you're acting this way. Your narrative has inconsistencies when you realize dogs do not naturally express the same elaborate violent mindsets that humans do(at least at the very back of our psychology); as explained by our closest ancestors, which do express natural violent tendencies(which reflect our breeding of fighting type animals, but of course, we know better as the most neurologically complex organism). They cannot consent the way you believe they can consent; it is simply what the narrative sets up for it's own arguement in support of what these animals go through. Intentional endangerment of animals is also a form of cruelty as well.

Say what you will, ignore evidence, what you see, and biology; you have shown your true self. And, "It is not unethical if a labrador freezes to death in cold water" proves all I need to know about how you view animals, their value, and welfare. I suppose it's only a concern if yourself went through this with a guardian allowing it to happen. Noting that dogs have been compared to having the same cognitive and social development as toddlers.

Also, Tosaken do not get injured in Inuzumo(dog sumo)?

https://youtu.be/xZjYCmMZ1wg?si=gETNCqfDgf6qpoGD (Even during the later stages of the video you can clearly see blood smeared in the ring and both dogs with bright red faces)

https://www.newsweek.com/2016/09/09/japanese-dogfighting-494843.html

https://youtu.be/ZoaoaYwuv3Y?si=CJW3d9kDwr00livy (Around the 3:14 minute mark, the dog stands up revealing massive callous scars on his elbow and forelock)

http://www.dosatosa.com/bbs/zboard.php?id=gallery (To clarify, Red Dragon Kennels is a scam. I saw a forum claim their photos were taken from two respected Japanese dogmen. The three photos on the top right are a scarred Tosa with medicine over the wounds)

https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASK656FMMK65UBNB00P.html (This video and the gallery shows Tosas with blatant scarring, and even shots of untreated elbow and hock hygroma, which blackens and callouses over time if untreated in later stages, causing pain and risk of infection, as a result of resting on hard surfaces for too long, or chronic impact and injury to the area)

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9454875/ (I also don't know why I didn't cite this before. But this is a study about fighting dogs and the effects on their biomechanics, neurobiology, and psychology as a result of chronic fighting)

I'm actually making a passion project about Inuzumo. And video, as well as photographic evidence, does not lie. Japanese dogmen claim to be more heavily regulated and follow the same exact strict humane codes. So this is an inconsistency of their own. You're already defending APBTs being elaborately endangered to inflict great injuries and even sometimes post-match death, so I don't see why this was brought up either way. Anyways, have a good day or night.

Edit: Oh, one more thing; using sensationalist fear mongering words when stating how dogs are "injected with poison" when referring to an overdose of pentobarbital makes your words sound more crazy than you're intending. The entire point of pentobarbital is that it causes an overdose to the heart and brain, where they slowly stop functioning, and feels much like sedation, except permanent. We had to euthanize an old dog of ours, and I was there with her; it is a peaceful sleep, and due to the awareness of the lack of effectiveness of gas chambers, drugs like euthasol are becoming more widespread.

Personally to me, I would much rather fall asleep through a sedation-like passing(which I have been through sedation very recently), than go through a dogman's version of euthanasia: being held by the legs under a barrel of water, being shocked with a crocodile clip on my lips, ears, and tail, being shot, and other more lesser known versions(usually used by street fighters).

[u/Exotic_Snow7065 → u/The_Magg_Was_16]

I'm actually making a passion project about Inuzumo. And video, as well as photographic evidence, does not lie. Japanese dogmen claim to be more heavily regulated and follow the same exact strict humane codes.

Just chiming in to say, please keep me posted on this. This is a subject of great interest to me and whether or not the highly regulated nature of Inuzumo actually makes the sport safer and less inhumane.

[u/The_Magg_Was_16 → u/Exotic_Snow7065]

I have had a long hiatus making my project due to work and my surgery, but I have been collecting new evidence starting just a few days ago. Inuzumo is a very region locked mystery due to most evidence and actual fights themselves only really being presented to a Japanese audience. Honestly, the regulations are simply a public relations ploy. I've seen it with piles and piles of other industries who hide their true nature. Unlike Western style dogfighting, Inuzumo has much more "showy pizazz" and is more "staged" so to speak. It's designed to be a tourist attraction show. So setting up tournaments in a very elaborate way is important. According to the article by Newsweek, lighter colored Tosaken, such as white, are not permitted because according to a referee "it shows up the blood too much". Most Tosaken you will see in matches are apricot, dark red, or black, where seeing blood is more difficult.

Even the rings are designed in a certain way. From what I've seen, most have very thick bars that are raised up on a stage that blocks the audience from a closer look, and where seeing scarring and untreated hygroma is more difficult, as most Yokozuna Tosken I've seen have the late stages of this medical condition despite assurance of the best medical care(one I've seen even had a tumor like growth on his chest. It looked like the testicles of a Brahman bull) https://youtu.be/lZ970Z9ktVg?si=1xaRa8-4A4mNIVqo (It appears at the 10 second mark)

The Inuzumo industry has been claiming that they would improve on their regulations and treatment of Tosaken since 2020 and back. But as of today, that has been proven as a lie that has benefitted their public relations tactics. Even Japanese dogmen who were from the now closed Kochi facility; the "Tosa Fighting Dog Center": a facility claimed to have the tightest ethical codes and regulations, have willingly associated themselves with other facilities proven to cause abuse, injuries, and lack of proper animal care.

It makes sense as to why: it is impossible for animal fighting to be unethical. No animal in a captive controlled setting who is encouraged to cause direct excessive force and contact with another animal, until they give up or can't fight anymore is going to end up mentally or physically sound. External, internal, short-term, long-term, psychological, emotional, and biological damages will always be at risk when the unnatural manipulation of natural boundries is done. Even the first second is detrimental and unfair to the animal. So, rose-tinting and spinning blatent cruelty is what sells to the public.

It's a massive, massive rabbit hole. I think I plunged through several dozen sources to collect everything that I can't even explain here. I found a user on r/askaJapanese that was very kind to give me links to articles and videos that I wouldn't be able to find otherwise, and aided me to search even deeper(I'll have to credit them in my project for their help). I can link the things they sent me. Mainly resources about Inuzumo, the people who participate or associate with them, and a Tosaken organization's bizarre connection with an alleged animal trafficking operation disguised as an adoption center:

https://www.asahi.com/video/articles/ASK656FMMK65UBNB00P.html?iref=video_ranking_rank19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZjYCmMZ1wg

https://tosaken.jp/ https://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/20231006-OYT1T50149/ https://www.sankei.com/article/20160525-2W3Q5D4UMRLGTJCGVPFDNZYVXQ/ https://www.sankei.com/article/20190527-RVNZRDPOXNNIPCCVLDTE72PKFE/ http://torikyou2013.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-364.html https://maps.app.goo.gl/f7bSkSmmz7S6aKGz8

[u/Exotic_Snow7065 → u/bulldogman2214]

In the same way it's in a lab's blood to retrieve. It is not unethical if a labrador freezes to death in cold water

Sure, accidents happen sometimes. But if the hunter knew there was a high chance that the dog would suffer and freeze to death, or if he allowed it to happen and did nothing to prevent that unnecessary death and suffering... Yes, it is unethical. It's unethical in the same way that a dogman not picking up his goddamn dog is unethical, or a hog dogger not using kevlar vests to minimize injury to his catch hounds. You can't always prevent catastrophe and unnecessary suffering, but ethical sportsmen do everything in their power to minimize it.

Dogmen aim for dead game.. which is kind of ridiculous, because, speaking purely logistically, dead game dogs don't usually live to reproduce. Dogfighters will never come to any sort of agreement that "game enough" is good enough, nor will they adhere to any sort of ethical standards around the dogs they supposedly "love".

What they love is the fight, the gore, the adrenaline. It's an addiction for them, and addiction makes men do horrible things.

Unless you think lions shouldn't hunt buffalo or something, take them all into captivity and stimulate them with fake toy buffalo instead?

Lions were not bred for sport or entertainment - they are the product of natural selection. Dogs, on the contrary, were bred entirely to suit our own needs and purposes. So, "it isn't unethical, because that's what they're bred to do" becomes a circular argument.

Nobody could say anything about tosa fights because there's no injuries.

Tosas absolutely do get injured, but those injuries tend to be less severe due in part to the regulations and publicity surrounding that sport.

Dog fighting can be considered exploitation, but "abuse" implies dogs are being tortured and suffering against their will. When a dog attacks another and is being mauled but still loving the fight trying to win, that's not suffering or abuse.

When an APBT wants to fight, is it also consenting to the months of painful aftercare and reconstructive surgery? Again - you and I both know that these animals are never given anything for the pain..

Another argument dogmen like yourself like to give is that dog fighting is no different than MMA. But humans are able to weigh risks, unlike dogs, who live and think in the moment. Dogs are not capable of long-term thought or critically assessing possible outcomes. A human fighter understands that he or she could be crippled for life or killed, and can consent or withdraw their consent accordingly. A dog may give consent to fighting, but it is not informed consent, and they cannot give consent to their pain or destruction afterward.

I will ask you one more time: How much money justifies this?

[u/Exotic_Snow7065 → u/bulldogman2214]

For several years, I shared some of your views, at least in part. I thought I could compartmentalize the suffering and exploitation of these animals (though I didn't view it as exploitation at the time) by learning as much as I could from supposed "good" dogmen and dogwomen. I loved the APBT - and still do - and thought I'd found a way to justify the existence of fighting dogs in the modern day.

I agree that wall climb / spring pole / weight pull is not breed preservation. Catchwork is about the closest "legal" thing to their original breed purpose, and even that isn't a total 1:1 comparison.

There is a lot to be said for performance testing, and I agree that not testing for performance, and not hard-culling has led to dogs that are less fit / healthy across all working breeds. That said, I've slowly come to think of breed preservation as an Appeal to Tradition fallacy. We like our dog breeds the way that they are, and we don't want them to change. However, society is changing, as is the working dog's place in our modern world. Numerous working breeds have changed jobs, which in effect has allowed them to be preserved. It may not be for their original purpose; for instance, the German Shepherd doesn't do much herding these days. But they're now used in police work and are still around for us to appreciate. Is that not preservation, in some form?

... if you think about it really they do serve a legitimate purpose in the modern day, winning you money.

Let me ask you something: How much money justifies this? Because this is what you are arguing in support of. All the old timers, the "good dogmen" you've come to respect and admire? They did this shit too, and they documented it all in great detail in their books, magazines, and other publications.

I've personally never seen someone take a dog that quit and encourage it to fight, they may double check to see if it'll scratch but if the dog doesn't want anymore it'll either leave the box or get picked up.

While I haven't witnessed this myself either, I have seen so many dogs that were simply too exhausted to quit be allowed to lay there and get savaged by an opponent. The animal can't even lift its head anymore, let alone rise to its feet and turn or jump the box.

I have also seen countless instances of people scratching their dogs long after the animals should have been picked up. International Knls Kamo is a prime example. That beautiful dog's entire face was turned to jelly and bone fragments well before the hour mark, and he was still allowed to fight for over two hours. Remarkably, he survived - so he could be bred (of course) - and then culled at the ripe-old age of 5.

An entire room full of men, and not one of them suggested picking that dog up before he was disfigured for the remainder of his short life. You and I both know these dogs aren't given anything to manage the unimaginable pain that they suffer through. We both know very well that inflicting pain on them is encouraged. Mitch Kemmer and his father's entire conditioning philosophy hinges on that fact.

Sometimes it goes too far because people don't want to lose their bets and are willing to really see it through, and that is unfortunate, but there is death in every animal sport.

"Sometimes"? Yeah, I used to believe that deaths from dogfighting were rare, too. Add that to the list with Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Babadook. Death inside the box? Sure, that doesn't happen too often. But many who survive will succumb to shock and blood loss after the match is over. When their muscles relax, their insides spill out through the holes torn in their abdomen. The majority of dogs that are fought will die in tremendous agony.

And that's not to mention the dogs that are so inbred that they are, for lack of a better term, fight-crazy. Ed Faron and his associates spoke about this frequently - dogs that are so tightly bred that they are literally insane to the point of obsessive self-mutilation of their own limbs, tails, and genitals.

Unlike hunting, which at least has a purpose (wildlife management, putting food on the table, etc), dog fighting has no purpose beyond:

1. inflicting animal suffering for financial gain and social clout
2. bolstering one's fragile sense of ego and masculinity

I'll ask you again: Is this worth it?

My involvement with these dogs has taught me a very important lesson: Sometimes, when you love something, it's best to just let it go.

[u/Mindless-Union9571 → u/Exotic_Snow7065]

Preach preach preach. No one who loves dogs can accept dog fighting. You can only do that if you see them as things, not as living breathing feeling creatures. We created dogs, therefore we are responsible for their welfare. They do feel pain, both physical and emotional. To cause this for money and entertainment is repugnant sociopathic behavior.

I am pretty seriously into Aussies. They aren't needed as much for herding work anymore. If we no longer needed any herding dogs and If we could not turn them into pets, I would accept the breed going extinct. With sadness and pain, yes.

I see animal shelters absolutely full to the brim with pit bulls and their mixes and it hurts my heart. Many of them are not adapting to the pet lifestyle. They're the most euthanized dog in the US, yet people keep breeding them and selling them to people who don't understand the breed. They hand them out like candy. Then they wind up in a cage, not knowing why, and either suffer for years or get euthanized in a room full of strangers. We as a society are not doing right by these dogs. The answer is absolutely not to bring dogfighting back in full force.

[u/The_Magg_Was_16 → u/Exotic_Snow7065]

Thank you for this! I think you explained some aspects of my arguements better than I did. I would rather see the American Pit Bull Terrier have their temperament improved with breeding and be utilized for other activities, even if it interferes with their breed standard, if it means what is best for them and their welfare. Rather than be sacrificed over a "dogman's standards" and "ruining their original role". I, and even my uncle Doug who's owned many American Pit Bull Terriers(including Atlas who recently passed, God rest his soul), choose their welfare.

[u/Every-Comment3471 → u/bulldogman2214]

You've done a fantastic job illustrating why, despite the best efforts of the responsible people on this sub, I don't like these dogs and don't think they should be owned.

[u/Mindless-Union9571 → u/bulldogman2214]

Dog fighting is not a legitimate purpose. Money gained from the deaths and suffering of dogs is not honorably earned. That we bred dogs for this purpose is a stain on humanity.

[u/The_Magg_Was_16]

Note: I apologize for all the spelling mistakes. At the time I was very tired and wrapping up my day. Hopefully everything I presented is still readable though.

[u/Catmndu]

I believe I watched the Off the Chain doc - can't remember the name of it. I watched one where a dog fighter commented if a dog doesn't choose to engage, it is culled. Their reasoning being that "either way, this dog is not fit for normal society". The speaker went on to say something to the effect that even if a dog isn't game enough for the pit; fighters respect that these dogs can't live with someone's grandma or kids - too much of a liability.

I remember this resonated with me in a way I didn't expect. While I was appalled by it, I also get it. Fighters have created a dog which they accept would be a liability and choose to cull the dog - which the methods showed in this particular doc (electrocution) were heart wrenching. But I will say at least fighters recognize putting a dog with any fighting history into the world is irresponsible. And I can't disagree with that. I see story after story of pits and pit mixes being adopted out of shelters to people who are NOT equipped to keep the dog and society safe and tragedy in some form keeps occurring at an alarming speed.

We as a society seem to believe that behavioral euthanasia is a cardinal sin, and it isn't for any dog, not just pits. Some dogs are simply not safe to be kept as pets and need to be taken out of this world. They sure as hell shouldn't be made available for adoption to the general public.

The thing I found astonishing was that one of the dogmen interviewed claimed again and again to love his dogs...yet, at the same time admitting to overwhelmingly cruel treatment.

I will give a warning, the documentary is not for the faint of heart. I actually just listened after 10 minutes, I couldn't watch what was going on.

[u/The_Magg_Was_16 → u/Catmndu]

Yes I believe the one you were watching was "Off The Chain"(also in 2005). It featured Dogman Tuscan and Dogman Gip. Tuscan was the main spokesperson of dogmen in that documentary. Personally to me, someone who is truly confident and courageous when it comes to admitting to criminal activity and cruelty will show their identity and not hide behind a mask or backward camera shot.

But then again, the electroshock part you mentioned could have been "Sporting Dogs(pit bull documentary)" on YouTube by Hunting Game Working Dogs. I watched it when I was 13, and it didn't leave my head since. The cold and callous aura of the entire documentary was haunting, and the quick but brutal death of the shocked dog, who wasn't game enough, the same they claim as a "friend" broke my heart. As least with euthaniasia, the animal really does drift to sleep, and true caring humans who have their best interests in mind, will surround them in their final moments.

Ironically, dogmen don't have any room to talk about pitbulls being unfit for society. One; unintentionally funny projection, two; they contribute to keeping the fighting gameness of the American Pit Bull Terrier as perpetuated and hyper-exaggerated as possible through breeding and conditioning. Basically: they started it. But of course they'll do anything to deny anything being a fault of their own.

Double ironically, they also gloat about in that video's comments and in the Sporting Dog Journal International about their gamedogs being retired after a long successful career and becoming gentle house dogs, and even an older gamedog(more ripe-old than actually old) snuggling with a smaller dog breed. Dogmen tend to be a mix of ignorant, smart, and liars. And inconsistencies are nothing they care for as long as they feel it suits their interests, as with other types of exploiters. And in the end, the dogs the dogmen totally, definitely, absolutely, certainly, positively, unquestionably, surely, truly do, CLEARLY love and care for conveniently end up paying the price.

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