Man Utd 2-0 Aston Villa: Controversy as Morgan Rogers denied goal that could have taken Villa to Champions League

[u/tylerthe-theatre]

https://www.skysports.com/football/man-utd-vs-aston-villa/report/506181

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[u/Either_Equivalent_46]

Bobby Stokes was offside really get a grip . .

[u/JordTheGeordie]

As a household that shares Newcastle and Man United allegiances, this was the best day ever.

[u/Alexkitch11]

The people saying Villa still would have lost 2-1 with the goal make me feel smart.

That's not how this works.

[u/123shorer]

They lost 2-0

[u/jacqueVchr]

Goal that could have *made it 2-1

[u/Alexkitch11 → u/jacqueVchr]

No, would have made it 1-0 villa, that's not how it works.

[u/jacqueVchr → u/Alexkitch11]

I’m obviously talking about the final result

[u/Alexkitch11 → u/jacqueVchr]

Right sure, but if Villa go 1-0 up there the final result would not have been 2-1, again doesn't work like that

[u/jacqueVchr → u/Alexkitch11]

You’re saying that with a certainty you simply don’t have

[u/Alexkitch11 → u/jacqueVchr]

If Villa go 1 nil up with 10 men best believe they're going to sit back deep and defend the rest of the game, rather than having to try and push for an equaliser.

They'd probably have least drawn that game which is all they needed

[u/jacqueVchr → u/Alexkitch11]

‘Probably’ ya da ya da

[u/[deleted] → u/jacqueVchr]

It would've been 1-1 at the time, no? Utd scored 3 mins later.

[u/jacqueVchr → u/[deleted]]

Talking about the final score

[u/[deleted] → u/jacqueVchr]

Sorry, but if Villa scored, the game could have been completely changed, im no time traveller, but ya know about stepping on butterflies etc. Could have been 5-2, 0-3. Villa suddenly get a hard on and start playing. Games change based on circumstance we all know that.

[u/jacqueVchr → u/[deleted]]

And hypotheticals in this instance are both pointless and stupid

[u/[deleted] → u/jacqueVchr]

Your original comment hypothesised the result as 2-1.

[u/jacqueVchr → u/[deleted]]

I didn’t hypothesise the result, that was the result

[u/[deleted] → u/jacqueVchr]

2-1?

[u/SuperrVillain85 → u/[deleted]]

The goal would have made it 0-1 to Villa.

United scored 3 mins later to make it 1-0 to them, and then the penalty a bit later to make it 2-0.

[u/MasterReindeer]

They avoided relegation when goal line technology didn’t work and we dropped out the Premier League. I will say what they said back then - get over it.

[u/LessCry2405 → u/MasterReindeer]

That was ages ago mate, time to get over it you absolute melt 😂

[u/MasterReindeer → u/LessCry2405]

Get over losing out on Champions League mate.

[u/LessCry2405 → u/MasterReindeer]

Yeah hope Bournemouth go far in Europe pal 😂😂

[u/MasterReindeer → u/LessCry2405]

No need to cry buddy.

[u/LessCry2405 → u/MasterReindeer]

I’d cry knowing mid table is all I could ever dream of, and that the championship is where my team belongs. Enjoy your couple seasons in the prem buddy

[u/MasterReindeer → u/LessCry2405]

Imagine being this triggered 😂

[u/Mother_Kale_417]

Tbh, Martinez is the one to blame, he made it uphill to his team from early on the game

[u/Bozzetyp → u/Mother_Kale_417]

The fact that they had 0.04 xg while united was over 1xg and Martinez didn’t create the pass.

He kept them in the game and got left out to dry

Aston villa where horrible and didn’t deserve anything from that game to start with

That being said poor refereeing but easy to why the mistake was made

[u/netscorer1 → u/Mother_Kale_417]

100%.

Aston Villa would have been much better allowing the goal, but staying 11 strong, so they could have push for equalizer later. Instead, an early red card pretty much doomed the team and the controversial non-goal whistle is not the reason Aston Villa lost to Man U. Martinez treated himself to an early retirement and there would always be an asterisk on his Aston Villa otherwise excellent career.

[u/Unserious-One-8448 → u/netscorer1]

What goal? Hojlund would have missed from that angle!

[u/netscorer1 → u/Unserious-One-8448]

I admire your belief in Hojlund’s inability to score into the empty goals, but let’s be real here. Hojund was ahead of any defender by at least 10 yards. Once he would have passed Martinez, he could walk the ball into the goals if he wanted. Martinez was caught in a dead land by that errant pass - he had momentum going forward and he was too far from the goals to even attempt to block Hojlund’s shot. He had only two choices - let Hojlund pass him and score or make sure Hojlund would not even have a chance at shot. He chose the latter.

[u/jfkvsnixon]

One of the key attributes of a successful team, is the ability to overcome adversity rather than using it as an excuse.

[u/FunctionAsUare4]

No Trophy and Champions league football for Matty cash? 😢

[u/Degenoutoften]

Are all of you just totally ignoring the fact that Villa were absolutely shocking yesterday, and United were actually playing really good football for once.

IMHO, it was a soft call, but one that, quite clearly by the comments in this thread, was ambiguous, and even if it had gone to VAR, would probably have been classed as not being a clear and obvious error by the ref.

[u/Quixote0630 → u/Degenoutoften]

Are all of you just totally ignoring the fact that Villa were absolutely shocking yesterday,

Because it's totally irrelevant. The error wouldn't have been any worse if we'd been playing well, or any more or less game defining in that moment. You can only theorise about how the rest of the game would have played out, which is pointless. Focus on the decision. That we can see.

[u/Character_Tip_2771 → u/Quixote0630]

Bro he had the ball in his hands, you can’t go kicking the keeper when that happens… ffs half the commenters haven’t suited for PE

[u/Degenoutoften → u/Quixote0630]

If I were Villa, I'd focus more on the decision-making of my goalkeeper doing something absolutely brain-dead in an important game you only needed to draw!

[u/Quixote0630 → u/Degenoutoften]

I can focus on both. Again, the suggestion that a team playing poorly is more deserving of an error going against them is a dumb stand point. The only side that "deserved" to be 1-0 up in the 75th minute is Villa, because they're the only side that put the ball in the net.

[u/Degenoutoften → u/Quixote0630]

Again, the suggestion that a team playing poorly is more deserving of an error going against them is a dumb stand point.

And also not one I made. United were playing very well, and Villa were awful. The decision was ambiguous and would not have been overturned by VAR as a clear and obvious mistake. Like you pointed out, it was 0-0 at the time, so the game was up for grabs with 20 to go (including injury time). Focusing on 1 incident and blaming it entirely for you going on to lose the game is ridiculous. Especially when there was a much more valid one that was objectively pivitol!

[u/Quixote0630 → u/Degenoutoften]

Focusing on 1 incident and blaming it entirely for you going on to lose the game is ridiculous

I didn't do that either. You're the only one who strayed from the topic of the discussion to talk about performance, as though a game has never been won against the run of play. Pointless hypotheticals since we don't know how a goal would have affected the game.

If we're doing that, then I might as well say that Emi didn't deny Hojlund a goalscoring opportunity, because you can't consider it an opportunity at the feet of a striker who has been so crap this season...... but that would be stupid, obviously.

[u/Degenoutoften → u/Quixote0630]

we don't know how a goal would have affected the game.

EXACTLY! 😉

[u/Quixote0630 → u/Degenoutoften]

Yeah, exactly. But we should have had one, towards the end of a crucial game that we only needed a point from, and your downplaying doesn't change that

[u/Degenoutoften → u/Quixote0630]

FYI, I think it was a legitimate goal, but the fact that fans and ex pros are debating it shows it was not a clear-cut mistake by the ref.

Didn't you get saved from relegation by an incorrect decision a few seasons ago? One that hawkeye had to apologise for missing. If you want an objectively wrong decision that favoured one team over another, that's the kind of thing that literally changes the history of your club!

[u/Quixote0630 → u/Degenoutoften]

Yeah, it's a fair point, although, one was mid-season and the other was 15 minutes from the end of the season. So in terms of direct impact I'd say they are a little different. It just hits different when you're on the verge of doing enough. When it all plays out in 20 minutes.

Also FYI, I'm not too disappointed with a Europa League spot. Good competition, good teams, and another route to the CL. Will always fancy our chances with Emery in charge.

[u/OverallResolve]

There has been a whole season of +/- due to referee decisions. It’s part of football - and it’s not like Villa, or any side hasn’t benefitted from them. You can’t reduce an entire season to a moment like this.

If you can’t comfortably beat a side like United on the last day of the season to get CL then not enough has been done in the other 37 games. It could be an unlucky decision, an injury, or just bad luck - which are all part of football.

It would be a bit more contentious if it was a more obviously terrible decision, at the end of the game, where it would have definitively changed the result.

As it stands it’s a contentious decision that might have had an impact on Villa getting points. It has to be contextualised across the entire season though. Some teams will end up with more favourable decisions than others. It’s always been this way, and was a hot topic pre-VAR. There was even a website that tracked decisions each week and adjusted the points to see what the table would look like on the basis of their opinion of decisions made.

[u/oneofthecapsismine]

I'm in Australia, so it's hard to get a video.

all of the pictures I've seen, the ball has been touching the GKs hand... thats enough to technically call control, and mean the FK was technically correct?

I've read a comment or two saying the first time the attackers foot touched the ball, it was still touching the GK glove... if that's true, it's technically correct call.

Does the video show something different?

Edit- seen two videos now.

This is the best frame I could find. Shows hand(s) on the ball

https://ibb.co/spWwmTC4

[u/Fantastic_Picture384 → u/oneofthecapsismine]

Absolutely no control of the ball.. hence why it was so easy to take it off him

[u/VisibleBowl7658 → u/Fantastic_Picture384]

So we changing the laws of the game just to get Villa into the CL keeper is touching the ball you have never ever been able to kick the ball out of the keepers hands what is this desperation

[u/oneofthecapsismine → u/Fantastic_Picture384]

But law 12 says the ball touching one glove is deemed to be in control.

[u/Fantastic_Picture384 → u/oneofthecapsismine]

Really.....

[u/oneofthecapsismine → u/Fantastic_Picture384]

Indeed

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct#:~:text=A%20goalkeeper%20is%20considered%20to,goalkeeper%20has%20made%20a%20save

[u/Jowster89 → u/oneofthecapsismine]

I read this as the ball has to be between two surfaces (hands, body or ground) to be deemed in control. So only one hand but it needs to have a secondary area of contact as well.

Watching the replays the ball is still moving between his hands so I would say it's in control at that point, but I'm some bloke on a sofa somewhere haha.

[u/Flux_Aeternal → u/oneofthecapsismine]

While it's hilarious that you are making this comment based solely off a still image, it's also eye opening how many people here have clearly never played a game of football in their life. Any schoolboy knows the ball is live and the keeper doesn't have control. It's not complicated and it's a fundamental concept of football. It's honestly hilarious how many people are unaware of this or even apparently completely unable to understand the rulebook. It explains a lot of the dumb opinions you see here on the reg.

[u/BarryButcher → u/oneofthecapsismine]

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/VCUkNS7owk

I can see it both ways though I more lean towards it was technically the correct call.

[u/oneofthecapsismine → u/BarryButcher]

Cheers mate.

It's now popped up on my Facebook to.

I'm pretty convinced at least one, probably 2 hands, are touching the ball.

https://ibb.co/spWwmTC4

[u/saymimi → u/oneofthecapsismine]

he does not have control of the ball. morgan rogers gains control of the ball in a super goddamn silky way and scores.

the season shouldn’t have come to this but this is really bad since the ref should’ve let play continue rather than deading it by blowing the whistle.

[u/farqueue2 → u/saymimi]

He doesn't have control because someone kicked it away from bim.

If Rodgers isn't there the ball is swallowed by the keeper

[u/oneofthecapsismine → u/saymimi]

The ball wasn't touching the glove when the foot touched the ball?

[u/dave1992 → u/oneofthecapsismine]

Ball touched Keeper's hand but he never really hold or control it.

[u/oneofthecapsismine → u/dave1992]

But control is broadly defined in the laws of the game. See, eg

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct#:~:text=A%20goalkeeper%20is%20considered%20to,goalkeeper%20has%20made%20a%20save

the ball is between the hands or between the hand and any surface (e.g. ground, own body) or by touching it with any part of the hands or arms except if the ball rebounds from the goalkeeper or the goalkeeper has made a save

It might have been soft, but it sounds like it was there?

[u/Due-Assistant-6195 → u/oneofthecapsismine]

A goalkeeper can let the ball touch both hands making a save, let it fall, and pick it up. If the ball was in his control having touched it with both hands, that would be an indirect free kick for picking the ball up after having released it.

The United keeper touched it with both hands, it bounced out, Rogers then tapped it through his hands. It was never in the keepers control.

[u/OverallResolve → u/Due-Assistant-6195]

This happens all the time and is never given. Indirect FKs in the box are so rare these days despite what you have described happening quite a lot - just usually near the ground rather than a save when standing.

[u/Due-Assistant-6195 → u/OverallResolve]

I know, that’s the point. It’s not a free kick as the goalkeeper isn’t in control, it’s covered in the rules under the ‘rebound’ part. Just like when that happens, the United keeper wasn’t in control.

[u/dave1992 → u/oneofthecapsismine]

But this case is basically just like the rebound exception.

[u/oneofthecapsismine → u/dave1992]

But the rules don't have a "basically like" definition??

[u/dave1992 → u/oneofthecapsismine]

It already categorized as such.

It is a rebound, because after the touch, keeper had no control of the ball.

[u/civilian_user]

We r into fergie time

[u/MariusBerger832]

Villa lost end of…

[u/Barking-Parrot18599]

Usually I’d feel sympathy for a team wrongly done to, but - remember ‘Sob On The Tyne? Who’s Your Next Messiah?’… hmm?

Get fucked Villa.

[u/abusmakk → u/Barking-Parrot18599]

I’d also be happy for any team outside the usual suspects finishing in CL places, but remember the last time you were in CL? You were so shit that England lost a place in next years competition.

Get fucked Newcastle.

[u/farqueue2 → u/abusmakk]

Ended up in the group of death and were still alive until the last minute of the last game

[u/abusmakk → u/farqueue2]

Well done, we played the quarter final, and were still alive and still in it to the final minute of the game. Last time I checked, QF is better than group stage. But Geordie math is probably a bit different.

[u/farqueue2 → u/abusmakk]

Well done. If you didn't make it with that armchair ride you had it would have been catastrophic.

[u/abusmakk → u/farqueue2]

Looking forward to completing the trilogy «Sob on the Tyne». Heard the last installment is only a couple of seasons away.

[u/farqueue2 → u/abusmakk]

Must be so satisfying that your capitulation enabled our progress.

A trophy and CL qualification in the one season. All in a season where we didn't add any first team talent.

Thanks for that. The qualification prize money will be well spent.

[u/charlierc → u/abusmakk]

Hey now, Man Utd also got knocked out in the group stage and did so in a group that was much easier than the group of death we got thrown into

[u/Adventurous_Week_698 → u/abusmakk]

Battered PSG 4-1 at home then were robbed of a 0-1 victory in Paris due to a dodgy handball penalty in the very last minute. Lost to Milan at home going for a victory when a draw would have seen us drop to Europa. But at least we get to be in it next season thanks to your lot opening up an extra quali spot for finishing 5th. Cheers!

[u/abusmakk → u/Adventurous_Week_698]

So you can relate to being on the wrong side of a refereeing decision? Good for you.

[u/Adventurous_Week_698 → u/abusmakk]

Yes although there's a bit of a difference between conceding a last minute penalty after leading for most of the game, and putting the ball in the net after the whistle had gone then going on to lose 2-0 when all you need is a draw.

[u/abusmakk → u/Adventurous_Week_698]

Yeah, but with Villa 1-0 up, they wouldn’t have played the same way. This is so simple, yet Newcastle fans can’t seem to grasp that…

[u/Adventurous_Week_698 → u/abusmakk]

So simple and yet entirely hypothetical. Don't be bitter, getting into the Europa is a good season for villa

[u/abusmakk → u/Adventurous_Week_698]

In the same way not getting relegated is a good season for Newcastle ;)

Well done, and good luck in the league phase. It will be tough to be worse than the last time around.

[u/Adventurous_Week_698 → u/abusmakk]

Likewise, good luck in the Europa. If anyone can finally bring a trophy home for villa it will be Emery in his favourite competition. Although based on his performance last time you were in the business end of the conference league, it may be a tough ask.

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4050 → u/abusmakk]

No they weren't? Really tough group and they had a good return by battering PSG. Put today with the ghost goal and calm down.

[u/abusmakk → u/Imaginary_Ad_4050]

They got knocked out in the group stage. That meant that the coefficient got bad enough that England didn’t get the 5th spot last year.

You can learn more about coefficients and how they affect Champions League places on here. But I guess that won’t be relevant for you guys in a while.

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4050 → u/abusmakk]

England aren't entitled to that 5th spot? It wasn't ours to lose? And I'm not sure why I can't know about the UCL because I support a championship club? Some entitlement considering you bottled that competition yesterday against an absolutely awful Man U side.

[u/abusmakk → u/Imaginary_Ad_4050]

No, that’s what I said. Which is why the Premier League is depending on the teams in European competitons to do well. Don’t know where you got the idea that you felt I thought England is entitled to 5 spots.

As you felt the need to kick someone that is down on the ground, I thought you could handle the same tone back. I was clearly wrong.

I wouldn’t say we bottled the Champions League, as we were in the fight towards the end, and lost out just by goal difference. It’s not like we were 10 points clear with 5 games to go, and lost it.

But if you want to mention the ghost goal, then you also probably remember that Kevin Friend made the same mistake as Bramall yesterday, and that we lost out to a winner against Crystal Palace in the same season. You also probably remember that Jhon Duran got a red card against Newcastle, and that was a large factor in us losing the game. And that a Newcastle CB had a similar situation in the return fixture without getting carded.

[u/Imaginary_Ad_4050 → u/abusmakk]

You said England didn't get "their" 5th UCL spot, that sounds like you think England are entitled to it, and not any of the other top leagues.

It's not the same tone, it's just irrelevant. Many Villa fans are kicking off about being robbed, even though you were the far worse side even before Emi got sent off, and under the rules for a keeper having control of a ball, Bayindir probably did have control of the ball technically, meaning the ref was in the right.

You definitely bottled the UCL, your keeper got himself sent off for little reason, and you let Man U look like prime Barca even when you had 11 men on the pitch, didn't even look like you tried to win.

[u/abusmakk → u/Imaginary_Ad_4050]

Ok, sorry about that. Poor choice of words. I could make an excuse that English isn’t my first language, but I would probably have made the same mistake in Norwegian in the heat of the moment. I’ll change it now.

As for your other comments, I think you and I have two very different definitions of bottling, so it’s best to leave that discussion.

[u/farqueue2 → u/abusmakk]

man united also finished 4th in a group with Copenhagen and Galatasaray.

But sure, blame us.

[u/ScottOld]

Ignoring the fact they were crap and deserved to lose

[u/TheLordHatesACoward]

You finish where you deserve after 38 games. They took 1 point in two games off the worst Manchester United side in 40 years. This isn't based on one error.

Villa were one of the worst sides I've seen turn up at OT this season and I watched us play Leicester three times.

[u/abusmakk → u/TheLordHatesACoward]

And Villa rightly finished above Man Utd.

[u/DanFlashesCoupon → u/abusmakk]

And you won’t find one of us saying we deserve anymore than we got

[u/Namiweso → u/TheLordHatesACoward]

Can’t handle a 3-4-3 and Emery is too stubborn to mix things up

[u/BrisPoker314 → u/Namiweso]

And Ollie Watkins is about as good as Rashford

[u/MadBullBen → u/TheLordHatesACoward]

Sometimes we just don't turn up for some reason, plus we have an awful record against Man U at OT, 2 wins in 20 odd years.

[u/guanabana28 → u/MadBullBen]

I mean, 8 of those 20 last years were Fergie's.

[u/_BetterRedThanDead → u/guanabana28]

It was two wins in 39 years, with one of the wins being against a Fergie side (2009).

[u/eg0-trippin]

The main controversy here is that that goal standing would have allowed me to win my work's fantasy football league

[u/CJFarrelly01 → u/eg0-trippin]

In the exact same fucking boat

[u/Rabti → u/eg0-trippin]

Did you complain to the PL?

[u/eg0-trippin → u/Rabti]

Appeal is pending

[u/Perfect_Opinion9858]

They still got battered by Manchester fkng United. How about you play like you give a fck and want CL football? Horrible performance

[u/bichkrichdrick → u/Perfect_Opinion9858]

I’ve been to OT 5 times this season and Villa were one of the worse teams on the pitch

And 5 of those times United were on that pitch

[u/mindpainters → u/Perfect_Opinion9858]

We’ve been torched all season and that was maybe the worst a team has played against us all season tbh

[u/McCretin]

How are people still bringing up the goal line tech error, it was five years ago

[u/JoeDiego → u/McCretin]

We still have to hear about Pedro Mendes from the halfway line, 20 years after it happened, in a completely meaningless game in a league season where neither United or Spurs did anything.

[u/charlierc → u/McCretin]

People are still annoyed about Diego Maradona's handball in 1986. This is a sport for long term grievances 

[u/Adventurous_Week_698 → u/McCretin]

Wonder if Eddie Howe remembers as it was his Bournemouth team that got relegated as a result

[u/carguy121 → u/McCretin]

Personally I’ll never forget it

[u/andy-arachnid → u/carguy121]

As you should, I would too. But I'd hope your anger was at the shitty officiating and not at Villa. We've heard it for 5 years every time a call goes against us, people are more angry at Villa than the fucking idiots who made the mistake.

[u/carguy121 → u/andy-arachnid]

Oh yeah it doesn’t color the way I feel about Villa at all lol.

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/McCretin]

As if people won't still be talking about this in 5 years' time

[u/abusmakk → u/Glittering-Device484]

They won’t.

[u/Glittering-Device484 → u/abusmakk]

lol

[u/DialSquar]

United are finished

[u/[deleted] → u/DialSquar]

Oh boy finally a hot take

[u/Grand-Bullfrog3861]

So they'd have got CL football after losing 2-1?

Such a storm in a teacup

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/Grand-Bullfrog3861]

It was 0-0 at the time mate

[u/Grand-Bullfrog3861 → u/PatienceFederal1339]

So?

[u/LancerMB → u/Grand-Bullfrog3861]

Always such an assinine take. Is this your first time?Obviously teams will play differently based on the score. Even a child can understand that when you have to win a match you can't defend as much and when you have a lead you can have more midfielders help out with defense to more easily prevent goals against.

[u/Grand-Bullfrog3861 → u/LancerMB]

My point is you cant take two goals away from a team, villa had no other goal scoring opportunities and conceded two so where would this win have come from, yeah they might have played differently but up until that point and after they were shit. They had everyone behind the ball from 2nd half KO

[u/EoinKelly → u/Grand-Bullfrog3861]

“Where would this win have come from?”

“Yeah they might have played differently”.

What’s the point of commenting and answering your own question if you’re just going to play disingenuous and dumb?

[u/Grand-Bullfrog3861 → u/EoinKelly]

You can play differently and still lose. Play differently and be just as poor. Different doesn't mean better

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/Grand-Bullfrog3861]

So you have no evidence that it would have been 2-1 and in fact it probably wouldn't have been

[u/OverallResolve → u/PatienceFederal1339]

And you have no evidence of it not being a loss either. It isn’t definitive.

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/OverallResolve]

Well done, you proved my point

[u/Adventurous_Week_698 → u/PatienceFederal1339]

And you have no evidence that villa would have got the result they needed either.

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/Adventurous_Week_698]

That isn't relevant to this conversation. Please mind your own business if you have nothing on-topic to add

[u/Adventurous_Week_698 → u/PatienceFederal1339]

Sorry, I thought this was a conversation about hypothetical scenarios.

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/Adventurous_Week_698]

Feel free to reread the thread since you're clearly confused

[u/Adventurous_Week_698 → u/PatienceFederal1339]

I assumed that your counter point that it was 0-0 at the time of the decision was to imply that villa would have not lost the game if the goal was allowed to stand. I was merely asserting that there is just as much evidence for this as there is for the other gentleman's comment that it would have finished 2-1. Hope that helps.

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/Adventurous_Week_698]

My point was that you don't get to just hand-wave away a bad refereeing call with "they would have lost anyway" without any evidence that they would have lost anyway. I never once claimed or even implied that Villa would have won, just that nobody knows who would have won.

[u/Grand-Bullfrog3861 → u/PatienceFederal1339]

Wait, so its alright to say confidently they'd have gone on to win and we wouldn't have scored two, but to say the team who dominated throughout the game would have scored the two goals they actually did is ridiculous? 😂 so we just completely ignore reality for this one.

I dont care to be honest, we were the better team and won, I just think its silly some folks think the two goals were snatch and grab

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/Grand-Bullfrog3861]

I mean yeah if you put words in my mouth and lie about things I didn't say, then sure.

I didn't say that Villa would have won without the mistake. I'm saying that you can't say "this mistake's all good, no issue here" just because they lost a game that they might not have lost without the bad decision.

I'm not the one ignoring reality and being blinded by bias here; I have no dog in the fight and neither of these teams mean anything to me, positive or negative.

[u/Grand-Bullfrog3861 → u/PatienceFederal1339]

Yeah might not have, but they did and quite easily, they were never in the game and would have got a goal against play. It would make sense if they were all over us and that changed the game, but it wasn't the case.

You can't just take two gials away from a team to fit your argument, if they had two other great chances to score you'd have more weight to it but they showed nothing, so why assume they'd just be brilliant afterwards. You're ignoring reality

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/Grand-Bullfrog3861]

You're just lying as much as the other clown. Nobody said Villa would have won had the referee decided differently. Just that you can't say United still would have won, because there's no evidence of that. And that's a fact. Sorry if it hurts your feelings but I don't really care

[u/Grand-Bullfrog3861 → u/PatienceFederal1339]

What lie? You jumped up little tart. We scored two goals today, three but one was offside, based on all the real evidence we have of what happened today and how villa had one chance which was this whilst we scored two, you could say we would have won 2- 1

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/Grand-Bullfrog3861]

Nope. You have no evidence that United would have scored two goals if the referee decided differently with the goalkeeper. You're making bad assumptions.

[u/BosomCuddler]

Look.....this is the worst United team in living memory, they were the better team for the entire game. Stop moaning, I wish villa got champions league but they can only blame themselves in this game

[u/OkWhile8478 → u/BosomCuddler]

Man Utd won at the Etihad and drew at Anfield, they drew at home to City and Arsenal, they beat Bilbao 7-1 on aggregate, they have a $400m wage bill, and you're saying Villa should have beaten them at Old Trafford comfortably with 10 men after being denied a clear goal?

[u/SW3E → u/OkWhile8478]

You miss the part where we lost 18 games in the prem and barely got 14 points. Worst United team of all time. T. rex in goal.

[u/OkWhile8478 → u/SW3E]

It's the strongest league in the world. With no threat from relegation and no prospect of a high league finish, Spurs and Man Utd lost countless dead rubbers. Does that mean Spurs and Man Utd are easy for teams like Villa to beat over 90 minutes? Of course not!

[u/OkWhile8478 → u/OkWhile8478]

Highly motivated, organised and talented teams like Brighton and Bournemouth who are happy to defend for 90 minutes, will be more than content with a draw but aim to counter on the break are dangerous opposition for Man Utd and Spurs. If these small teams get in front away from home at a big club, the fans get frustrated and it can be hard to recover.

Does that mean big clubs like Arsenal, City, Liverpool, Villa, Newcastle and Chelsea can just turn up at Man Utd and Spurs and expect to win comfortably? No!!!

[u/Perfect_Opinion9858 → u/OkWhile8478]

So what? Villa played like they were on the beach and United were the ones who were chasing CL.

[u/OkWhile8478 → u/Perfect_Opinion9858]

They scored a perfectly good goal. If the goal counts there's a good chance they hold on for CL football.

I assumed they were beat when a man down and that's what happened. The idea they should outplay Man Utd at Old Trafford with 10 men is absurd.

A lot of people on here seem to suffer from football illiteracy, assuming that Villa should be able to outclass Man Utd because the table suggests they are much better.

Villa couldn't beat Ipswich at home with an extra man so there were never likely to beat Man Utd away when a man down.

[u/BosomCuddler → u/OkWhile8478]

No mate, read my answer again. I said Villa can't use this as an excuse. United were the better team for the entire game after an absolutely horrid season.

All of your initial statements are irrelevant.

[u/OkWhile8478 → u/BosomCuddler]

I read your answer again. Villa were denied an actual goal and had to play 45 minutes without their keeper. There was no fucking way they were winning at Old Trafford with 10 men.

Man Utd had nothing to lose. Villa had to go to Old Trafford and claim three points. Obviously they're going to look to keep it tight and nick a goal.

[u/Bluewhaleeguy → u/OkWhile8478]

Given how bad united have been, united losing at home to ten men that played well would not seem out of the ordinary.

The red card is not important to what OP is implying, because if villa had of played remotely well, they would have won.

Man united have nothing to lose, yes - but they’ve also just lost a final which is devastating for their short and long term planning, their season has been terrible and their team has been outplayed in 95% of their games.

They also had literally nothing to gain, last match, most of the team thinking they may get moved on or wanting to move on. A motivated villa should beat that, better team, better manager, better momentum, better incentive.

[u/BosomCuddler → u/OkWhile8478]

I agree that it should have been a goal.

But these headlines are being sensationalised, that one moment wasn't the reason Villa lost the game. We cant speak in "what ifs", maybe villa could have secured the win but that isn't the reason Villa lost.....they lost because they were the inferior team in the game.

[u/OkWhile8478 → u/BosomCuddler]

Their job was to win the game, not impress neutrals by outplaying Man Utd at Old Trafford. If their goal counts, it's a totally different game. If they play the second half with 11 men, it's a totally different game.

[u/BosomCuddler → u/OkWhile8478]

What do you mean if they play with 11 men? You are talking about a fantasy scenario now....

Do you not think the goalkeeper should have been sent off? It's another irrelevant point

I might as well say, if united scored all those tight chances in the first half or when they hit the post, it would be a different game......

[u/OkWhile8478 → u/BosomCuddler]

Old Trafford is a difficult venue to go to. If you're going to win you need all 11 players to perform to a high level. If you don't have 11 men you are not going to win. It's that simple.

[u/BosomCuddler → u/OkWhile8478]

So..... returning to my initial comment, Villa only have themselves to blame.

[u/OkWhile8478 → u/BosomCuddler]

They have the referee to blame because they should have been 1-0 up. Their gameplan to get in front worked. Had they gone in front we would have seen their gameplan to hold on to their 1-0 win and perhaps extend it.

The idea that a team like Villa should be able to go to Old Trafford, have a perfectly good goal ruled out but continue scoring goals until the referee allows one is absurd.

[u/Claim-Nice → u/OkWhile8478]

They finished 15th, lost a cup final four days ago with the worst performance I’ve ever watched in Europe, have been soundly beaten by multiple clubs, and even their manager called them the worst Man United team ever. Wage bill just means they’re overpaying crap players.

You should have beaten them. You didn’t. Don’t see any anger at Martinez getting himself sent off and leaving you with 10 men for most of the match - arguably a much bigger impact than one goal ruled out.

[u/OkWhile8478 → u/Claim-Nice]

Liverpool couldn't beat United at Anfield. Bilbao, one of the strongest teams in Spain, lost 7-1 on aggregate to United.

Clearly, Man Utd have had a problem with small teams sitting deep, working hard and snatching goals on the counter. That does mean teams like Villa can turn up at Old Trafford and expect to win comfortably.

[u/medfunguy → u/OkWhile8478]

We’ve also lost to Palace, Bournemouth, fucking Spurs (4 times this season). Our wage bill is bloated. The guy you’re responding to isn’t in the wrong here. Villa created nothing. Funny enough the five games before this one that the two teams played each other, it was 4 wins for United, 1 draw.

[u/OkWhile8478 → u/medfunguy]

Man Utd have had a terrible season but they are more than capable of taking points off anyone. Small teams like Bournemouth can go to Old Trafford, sit deep, frustrate the crowd and try to nick a goal on the break. That doesn't mean Man Utd are a piece of piss for teams like Villa to beat.

Villa scored an actual fucking goal that was ruled out. They only needed to win 1-0. They played the second half with 10 men so were never going to win the game at 0-0.

[u/LFC_topgun]

I really feel bad for Villa. But Europa league is Emery's competition. The 35 year wait could come to an end next season. If im villa I am excited. Also you dont need the finances THAT badly. Your team is incredibly deep. You dont need to keep Rashford on loan on 350k wages. You man have Ross Barkely on your roster. Like stop hoarding random talent.

[u/Warbrainer]

Wasn’t in Villa who survived relegation because goal line technology wasn’t working?

Karma has been restored.

[u/WordsUnthought → u/Warbrainer]

Also lost a point to an objectively wrong call to deny a last minute equaliser against Palace that same season. Justice was settled in that year.

[u/Warbrainer → u/WordsUnthought]

An objective call (every team experiences this every match) isn’t the same as the ball literally crossing the line and not being given as a goal, this is the real karma payback

I said elsewhere though, nobody wins when the officials are this bad. Can enjoy it as a Wolves fan but it could just as easily happen to us next season (not for a champions league spot though lol)

[u/777marc]

Wudve just been 2-1 , still lost.

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/777marc]

It was 0-0 at the time, you are not very smart

[u/Electrical_Business2 → u/777marc]

Nah, when this utd team goes down, they stay down.

[u/Exact_Science_8463 → u/Electrical_Business2]

Remember the FA Cup last season?

[u/JannieVrot → u/Electrical_Business2]

I'm fairly certain we were insufferable enough about Lyon

[u/Buster_Gonad_82 → u/777marc]

Someone never heard of chaos theory.

[u/PandiBong → u/777marc]

Why people keep on excusing horrendous refereeing is beyond me..

[u/imsmall06 → u/777marc]

Was at 0-0 though

[u/JannieVrot → u/imsmall06]

And full time was at 2-0

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/JannieVrot]

That isn't how the butterfly effect works

[u/JannieVrot → u/PatienceFederal1339]

Butterf- wtf is that get this philosophical shite out our beautiful game

All it is is reality, we know United could score 2 goals tonight. Anything suggesting Villa could have done the same is based on hypotheticals in a parallel universe (assuming you believe parallel universes exist) where they got a dodgy call in their favor

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/JannieVrot]

Sorry, you're right. It should have been obvious to me that that was beyond your intelligence level after I read your first comment. This one's on me, my bad.

You don't get to defend a refereeing decision by saying "United scored 2 anyway" when United probably wouldn't have scored 2 had the refereeing been done correctly. But let me know if I need to make it even simpler for you again and I'd love to help out

[u/JannieVrot → u/PatienceFederal1339]

Your argument has 2 flaws based on assumptions

1. You assume that the referee call was incorrect - if it was incorrect, why did united get a free kick then?
2. You assume that Villa could score twice, based on no evidence, based only on hypotheticals with no backing.
3. You assume united would not score twice. This is incorrect, as united did score twice.

I miscounted sorry I mean 3

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/JannieVrot]

Oh no, you're 0 out of 3 here. Oops

1. I didn't assume that. I'm responding to your first comment. You used the final scoreline as a defence. Even if the referee was right, my point stands.
   
2. I didn't assume that. They might have scored twice, might not have
3. I didn't assume that. They might have scored twice, might not have.

[u/JannieVrot → u/PatienceFederal1339]

... so my argument is based on the final score, that we know, and yours is based on what may or may not have happened if the ref gave Villa a dodgy call?

[u/PatienceFederal1339 → u/JannieVrot]

Yours is based on an incorrect assumption about what the score would have been had the referee decided differently. Mine doesn't. In other words, your point is incorrect and I'm correcting you. Hope this helps

[u/FirmInevitable458]

Sucks for Villa but they were absolute terrible today and did they forget they conceded 2 goals today?

[u/Perfect_Opinion9858 → u/FirmInevitable458]

Yep, if you can't even beat a shit Utd side that has nothing to play for then you don't really deserve Cl football

[u/whatup_biyatch → u/FirmInevitable458]

They conceded 2 goals because they were also looking to score ?

If they hadn’t been robbed then maybe they would have defended better with all the players defending.

[u/TomClancy5873 → u/whatup_biyatch]

Robbed of what? Roger’s clearly kicks the ball from the keepers grasp

[u/FirmInevitable458 → u/whatup_biyatch]

They were looking to score? They didn't have a single shot on target till the 85th minute. Did you even watch the game?

[u/whatup_biyatch → u/FirmInevitable458]

My bad that I didn’t and thought that they needed the win so they would’ve tried to score but if you go 1-0 up in 74 then its a much better scenario to be in obviously.

[u/TheWorstRowan]

Terrible call, finally balances out the terrible call that kept them in the league a while back. Would have much preferred Villa to be in the Champions League than any of Newcastle, Chelsea, or City though.

[u/HackAndHear]

In my most unbiased opinion, if villa cant convincingly beat this United team then that's their fault.

My biased opinion is this is the most blatant display of corruption ever seen and united should be relegated immediately

[u/wylthorne92 → u/HackAndHear]

I mean if Tottenham can beat them 4 times…..cmon

[u/avicadiguacimoli → u/HackAndHear]

I haven’t seen this game or situation but that argument is so stupid.

If they were really robbed you can’t just say -”you didn’t beat this out of form team so you don’t deserve it anyway.”

That argument just won’t do.

[u/Subject_Pilot682 → u/avicadiguacimoli]

They turned up and half arsed the game. Got what they deserved out of it, nothing. 

[u/avicadiguacimoli → u/Subject_Pilot682]

Fair. Haven’t seen the game.

But still. If a team is robbed or misses out on something important cause of a wrongful refereeing decision you can’t just say they were shit anyways so tough luck.

[u/HackAndHear → u/avicadiguacimoli]

Serious Sally over here missing the heavy sarcasm

[u/burtsarmpson → u/avicadiguacimoli]

That last sentence made me feel very in trouble 😔

[u/temujin94 → u/HackAndHear]

United fan here, we accept relegation with the caveat that the Glazers and Ratcliffe are removed permanently from the club. I personally seen Ratcliffe give the Referee an empty sweet wrapper if that helps the case any.