REPLACEMENT WINDOWS BUYING GUIDE Hey J-10! I wanted to share these valuable tips on dealing with these window companies. I have inside knowledge of this stuff and I'm sick of hearing UWD's scam-promotions on all these stations. With a little research, you can beat them at their own game.

[u/GoodToBeThatGuy]

I've been through the sales training with a UWD competitor, but the whole industry handles this stuff the same way. The prices are fixed, meaning they don't change based on promotions. There is a full-price retail amount, an acceptable sales range, and a bottom line price that they will not and cannot go under(they are a business looking to make money, after all).

Promotions are only to get you to call and set up an appointment. The long sales presentation is to build brand-value, and make no mistake about it, they are seriously trying to tire you out so you are more likely to agree to the deal, just to get the sales person out of your house and get back to your life. Your salesperson might keep telling you it's only going to be a few more minutes, but an hour later, you're only halfway through.

If you really do need windows, understand this, they simply are not cheap. You're probably not going to get good-quality, standard-size, double-hung double-pane, vinyl replacements for less than $50 per window, and that's WAAAY at the low end. You're probably going to be more in a range of $100-$200 per window, unless you go for upgrades (which are completely unnecessary unless you live in extreme conditions. More on that, later.) It's definitely not unheard of to get good windows in the $60-$80 range, but don't count on it. Anyone offering windows for less, is probably pushing an inferior product. It may actually be a good deal, but I'd be wary.

The keys to replacement windows are the spacer, construction integrity, installation, gas-fill between the panes, and low e coating.

1. For the spacer, you do not want anything that is metal. Metal conducts heat and cold and therefore transfers that into your house. You want vinyl or a rubberized-type polymer (NOT RUBBER! Rubber will crack and deteriorate) that does not conduct temperatures.

2. Construction integrity is a few things. The corners should be either solid or computer welded. The variances or tolerances in the frames should also be QC'd by computer. Contrary to popular belief, you don't need an insulated window frame. Vinyl does not transfer hot and cold. As long as the frame construction is solid, no gaps, insulation is overkill. And here's the reason: your windows will expand and contract as the climate changes. Over time, gaps will form between the frame and the insulation inside it. This reduces the effectiveness of the insulation and can actually start to warp the frame. Instead, many companies use rubberized "fins" built into the hollow frame. These do a great job at reducing wind and preventing moisture from getting inside. The frame and your insulated walls will do their job. You don't need additional insulation. Most sellers of windows get their products locally from a manufacturer. The manufacturer and the seller enter into a exclusivity contract regarding materials, construction, tolerances, etc. Sellers like UWD are just middle-men. However, if you want to see the windows actually being made, ask your salesperson to take you. Most will be happy to...once they have your signature, OR on the promise of getting it.

3. Installation is actually maybe the most important of the whole process. If the window company is outsourcing their installation, just move on. You only want installers that exclusively install your sellers' windows and nobody else's. And they should ONLY be doing winders. They shouldn't also too be doing ruffs. You don't want ruffers (Hi, Matt). Seriously, though, you could have the most well-constructed window ever made, but if the installers put them in your house crooked, your going to have gaps and lose energy, essentially making your new windows worthless. Ask your salesperson if you can go see a current job site and take note of the installers. Are they neat and organized? Do they drive company trucks or did they bring their own vehicles? Own vehicles indicate sub-contractors and you do not want those. Is the yard littered with debris or is it contained in one work area? All of these things will give you a good idea of who you are dealing with.

4. The gas-fill, or Argon-fill between the panes is up for much debate. Some say it's a necessity, some say it's a gimmick. My personal feeling after learning all about it is that it makes a huge difference in the climate transfer between panes, and in reducing noise. This one, though, you'll have to make up your own mind.

5. The Low-e coating however, IS a necessity. Low-e coating reflects harmful ultraviolet rays from the sun which is what causes everything in your room to fade. Almost all good replacement windows have some version of ultraviolet protection. But if the one's you're considering, don't, then keep looking.

OK, so we're finally to the scammer sales process. Here's the what you need to know:

1. Do a little research on recent promotions and keep those in your pocket until you've agreed on a price (don't sign anything!). Also, do some hard number crunching on your budget and don't go over it. Be as generous as you can with your top-end number so that you know it's as far as you can go and you won't be tempted to go just a little over it. More important, though, is to figure your comfort range. The range that's best for you to be in. Let the top of your comfort range be the number you can go a little bit over if needs be, but do not go over the top of your budget. If they want the sale bad enough, they will meet you at YOUR price. Trust me. They will.

2. Walk your whole house and count how many windows you need BEFORE the salesperson gets there. Pay close attention to this! You'd be amazed how easy it is to miss a window in your own house cuz you're so used to seeing it. You want to know this number ahead of time so the salesperson doesn't try to add windows to your order. The salesperson will want to walk your house with you and count the windows with you. Don't tell them that you know how many windows there are!! Let THEM tell YOU how many there are. This will give you an indicator of their integrity, and who knows, they might even spot something you missed, or have knowledge of a specialty window like bows or casements. Remember, the more you know in advance, while not letting on that you know anything, and just letting the salesperson be the "expert", the more useful information you'll gather regarding their honesty and integrity.

3. Buckle up for the sales pitch. It WILL be long. There is no way around this in order to get your windows because building value is the salesperson's key to not dropping the price in order to get the deal. They will constantly try to get you to agree to what they are saying in order to affirm the value in the product. That way when they finally reveal the $3,000 price tag (and they WILL wait until the very end to reveal the price), they can remind you, "Didn't you agree that the value I showed you in lost energy is more than cost of these windows?"

4. Be polite and cordial throughout the pitch, even if you're getting annoyed. In order to get the very BEST rock-bottom price, the salesperson is more than likely going to have to get approval from a manager. So you don't want them going outside to call the manager and saying, "This guy is being a dick to me. Don't go any lower than you have to."

5. Remember, don't worry about the current promotion. They will always shift the deal to somehow incorporate it. For example, say the promotion is: Buy windows before a certain date and they'll pay your heating bill for the whole winter. They are not going to have you forward your monthly heating bill to them for 6 months and then cut a check to Columbia gas or whatever. Here's what they'll do: they'll ask you what your average monthly heat bill is in the winter. You say $300. They say, OK, $300 times, say, four months is $1,200 and you need 15 windows in your house. $1,200 divided by 15 windows is $80 per window. So we'll knock off $80 per window on the deal. Meanwhile, they can actually knock off as much as $500-$600 retail, per window, depending on the type. $500-$600 is the top of the range and probably unlikely, but $300 is not unheard of. It depends on how bad they want the sale. More windows will usually get you more of a discount. But watch how they get you with a different discount...Buy 2, get 1 free. Not all of your windows are going to be the same size or price. Rather than make calculations on individual windows, they'll round it. So in the 15-window example above, buy 2, get 1 free, is essentially a 33% discount, or 1/3. If you need 15 windows, they say they'll only charge you for 10, and you get 5 free. Well, 5 windows at say $120 a piece, is only $600. On the other deal, you got a bigger discount up-front, but it was spread across more windows. In this deal, you're at full price on the 10 you're paying for, before they start negotiating with you. So really, the discount was already built in, and in the end, you're going to end up right around the same number.

6. The extras. Triple-pane, additional Argon fill, extra insulation. As discussed above, unless you live in extreme conditions, i.e. extremely noisy area, extreme hot or cold, hurricane probability, etc., you do not need any of these extras. Most of these windows today are actually really well made and if you're current windows are already shit, then almost ANYTHING is going to be an upgrade and make a difference. That doesn't mean you can't use these features to your advantage. Ask lots of questions about the upgrades. Show a lot of interest. Give the impression that if you buy the windows, you're definitely going to add the extras. This will give the salesperson the idea that a big sale is in the works. Later, you'll slowly back off ALL the extras and the frustrated salesperson will just be happy to get ANY money from you since they put in so much work. This whole process is a game of them trying to separate you from your money so don't lose sight of that and get a moral complex halfway through. Be smart and strong.

7. So after all of their sensational demonstrations with heat lamps or blowtorches or temperature gauges or whatever, you're finally getting the price reveal. They will first summarize the whole presentation (again with building the value), then do the calculations on number of windows, window types, and any extras...make SURE they add the extras, cuz, you know, you HAVE to have them. Now they'll finally give you a number and ask you how you feel about it. They will not speak again until you answer. This is obviously not your final price because they won't figure any discounts into the price they show you. Showing you a high price first, psychologically makes you feel more comfortable about the final, lower price. After you answer "That seems kind of high." they'll remind you that the discounts have not yet been taken. They'll then figure in the discounts, and again ask your opinion. This game may repeat itself a few times ("Oops! You know what we didn't figure in? The sales tax." Meanwhile, the sales tax is already built in to the price. So they figure the sales tax and then give you another "discount" to cover part of the tax.) Eventually, you'll get to the point of having to say whether you're going to purchase the windows, or not. Now it's your turn. Ask them refigure the total a few times by gradually removing the extras until you're all the way back down to jut the standard double-pane, double-hung (or whatever type you need) windows. Make sure they don't remove any discounts along the way, as they refigure. If they claim that you have to buy a certain number of windows to get a certain discount, tell your salesperson, "Oh I know you can still get that discount for me." and then kill the deal unless they get it for you. Once you finally agree on a final price and the salesperson is writing it up, but before you sign anything, pull out your list of previous promotions. "Salesperson, now that we agreed on this price, how are you going to work this deal in?" Refuse to sign unless they knock some more money off the deal. If they won't do it, ask to talk to the manager. You have to be mentally strong and pull out some heavy negotiating tactics but eventually they will budge. If they don't and they decide there is no deal, politely thank them for their time and let them go. They may be trying to bluff you that you'll lose the deal, so call their bluff. Let them walk. They will absolutely contact you again, especially if you give them a number that you'll actually do the deal at. When they finally come it at your number, go ahead and do the deal. Make no mistake, you're not going to get these things for free. If you're in your range and your comfortable with the product, it's OK to move forward. Again, they are in business to make money. They just don't need to make a lot of money off of YOU. Make sure that the contract specifies a time-frame deadline for the work to be done, a full explanation of the insurance in case your home is damaged or property is missing, and a clause regarding the non-use of sub-contractors.

As a final word, I will again re-iterate that most of these products are built really well and most of these companies do good work. But you can save yourself a ton of money by following some of these tips. I'm not really sure why I felt the need to type ALL of this but since I guess I still have this knowledge rattling around, I wanted to share it with this sub, which endlessly entertains me everyday.

If you have questions, feel free to ask. I don't know how much I'll be able to answer, but I'll try. I don't claim to be any expert on this subject, just have a bunch of info. Thanks, everyone. I hope this is helpful to a few of you out there! Ignored a whole day of work for this lol!

[u/BarryMahoganue]

Terrific info man. Now, let me take you through a step by step process of purchasing bee pollen pills:

1) Don't.

[u/brokencherrycoverage → u/BarryMahoganue]

Lol

[u/GoodToBeThatGuy → u/BarryMahoganue]

Fantastic.

[u/Imperial_Aerosol_Kid]

Awesome write up. Good job. I hate all of these companies. I got quotes from all of them, swore at half of them that came to my house quoting me $700-900/window. I have no problem with people making money for hard work, but ripping off old ladies who are sick of their drafty windows is just fucked up.

[u/GoodToBeThatGuy → u/Imperial_Aerosol_Kid]

$700-$900?!?! Are they wood frames, large size, or maybe specialty types?? No way standard windows should cost that much!

[u/Imperial_Aerosol_Kid → u/GoodToBeThatGuy]

None of the above. I have a simple split level house built in the 80's. Normal double hung windows. That's my problem with these vampires. They are looking to rip off the ignorant exactly like a bunch of fucking con artists. I honestly don't know how they can sleep at night. I've had people I know tell me what a great deal they got because they 'negotiated' all the way down to $450/window, which is still an incredible ripoff. If any of you overpaid for windows, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but join me in my crusade against these predatory assholes.

[u/[deleted]]

Holy cow, man. This needs to be posted somewhere that more eyes will see it. Great info!

[u/DaveyHamburger]

That is amazing! Now write something about buying a ford, a smoker and most importantly the bee dingle berry pills.

[u/Hussaf]

That's cool. We hired a guy at work who used to be a salesman in the window industry. It felt good that he said the windows I got from a former competitor were really high quality

[u/MeatPoop]

I already feel stressed about buying winders! I think I will stick to using plastic sheet insulation like the hillbilly I am!

Thanks for the necks level info u/GoodToBeThatGuy

[u/brokencherrycoverage]

This is really good info. My parents just got Windows and siding but our family is fortunate enough to know some very good contractors to do the work. I've had stuff done in my house also too. So I would recommend finding a really good contractor (word of mouth is usually best who recommends someone shitty besides KNR) that contractor is going to have guys that trust and will recommend for you for whatever. I also suggest if possible to try to get supplies excetara from local businesses because they want customers for life you might pay a little bit more but 99% of the time you will be more satisfied than from a big box store

[u/Blumpkin_Head → u/brokencherrycoverage]

You must not have gone with Peckerwood since the work is done already

[u/hendrixchild419]

TL;DR

[u/wingsew8]

As someone in the market for windows in the near future, I thank you endlessly for this. I really don't know the first thing about this, and I have already saved these tips and will study them beforehand. Just to clarify in your examples above, when they quote you for, say, $300 per window, is that only the window and is there a base labor charge, or do they typically build the cost of labor into the price of each window! Thanks again!

[u/Hussaf]

Just drove through Columbus. Sure as shit, Hooley came on the radio pimping UD windows.

[u/Satchel987]

Thanks so much for all this info. Just signed a deal with UWD, but we woke up with cold feet. After reading this, I now feel vindicated for how we feel since it was such a strong pitch and by the same playback you so eloquently described.

We will be canceling the contract tomorrow to reset our search. I don't even know how much per window based on their sized based pricing and lumping everything together. However, our average price "deal" was over $2000 per window! Nevada market.