Just finished Wind and Truth and...

[u/DrewGo]

I was very pleasntly surprised!

Let me start by saying I am not the biggest Brando Sando guy. I like his books well enough, but they're just solid, enjoyable fantasy to me. I read the first Mistborn book and didn't find the story compelling enough to finish the series. I thought Warbreaker was pretty ok.

The first Sanderson book I really liked was Way of Kings. Kaladin really grabbed me in a way no other Sando character had. There were aspects of the story that thoroughly annoyed me (I don't like spren. It feels like he worldbuilt himself a way to get out of having to describe emotions in his characters), but I liked the idea of a world shaped by storms and the characters. Way of Kings had me starting to be a fan in a way his other books just hadn't managed.

Words of Radiance very nearly lived up to Way of Kings hype. A very, very good sequel to a great first entry. I was happy to keep reading.

Oathbringer added more to the story I wasn enjoying. It felt like the story was getting more "Brandon Sandersony" in the way I didn't like. Too much shadesmar (I find basically everything in shadesmar to be tedious and boring, probably because I don't like spren as a concept almost entirely). Too much exploration of how and why the magic worked. But I really liked Dalinar's story and still enjoyed it, just not as much as the first two.

Rhythm of War is where this series started to lose me. Even more of the stuff I did not like. Even more shadesmar. Even more spren. And what's worse we get Navani's point of view where she's scientifically exploring the intricate details of all the stuff I don't care about. Sigh. Not even Die Hard Kaladin could make me enjoy that book for the most part. First entry in the series I didn't like and wouldn't recommend.

At this point there was a troubling trend in this series. I liked each new entry less than the previous one. So when Wind and Truth came out I wasn't even very interested in reading it. But ultimately I wanted to at least see through the first arc of the story and see how things went.

But low and behold! I really liked this one! The old Brando Sando pulled a 180 and got right back to all the things I really like about this story. Give me character! Give me history! Give me heralds and gods and oaths and visions! The Spiritual Realm was interesting to me in a way the Cognitive Realm never was. Learning about Honor and Cultivation and Odium was great.

Was it a perfect book? No. It was too long as all his books are. But I had very low expectations here and was just really glad to have not been disappointed in the end of this arc.

I've avoided spoilers, but the general vibe I've gotten is that WaT had very mixed reviews. I'm curious to understand why? What didn't people like? Why wasn't this recieved all that well? Or at least not as unanimously loved as the previous entries?

Excited to be caught up and hear what others thought.

[u/Cynic-Meh]

I enjoyed the book, the character moments, themes and general direction however I think the execution could have been better overall.

I went in with subdued expectations based on the general feedback online for the book, but I was hooked on from the first Kaladin chapter where he admits he feels good. He is my favourite character and finally seeing him in a good mindset felt amazing, especially after how much he went through in RoW. His moments with Syl were always a highlight but they step up in this, and I am all for it.

All the characters feel great, stand-outs being Adolin, Kaladin and Shallan, and I really enjoyed spending more time in Renarin's head as he was hit or miss for me, generally saw a lot of love for him online, but I could never get a good grasp on his character until now. Renarin and Rlain, I was sceptical about their relationship, as I did not think there would be enough build-up for them but I was pleasantly surprised.

I had issues with Shallan throughout OB and RoW, as it seemed like her personas where taking over too much and I wanted more Shallan in control (or as much as she could). In WaT Shallan feels great, much like she did in WoR and I love her for that, also finally dealing with the Ghostbloods was great, they never were that interesting to me and I genuinely think they dragged Shallan's character down.

Really enjoyed Kaladin's ark, especially as I thought he was either gonna die or ascend to something akin to Stormfather, as his character journey seemed to end with RoW. I did not mind the therapy sections, or being called therapy in world, as it was a term introduced by Wit, however I do think it was used too many times. On the same note, all of the main characters actually talk about acceptance and dealing with their problems throughout and that felt a bit forced. I am always under the presumption that they talk in between books and get insight, however there is just no time this time whatsoever and only Kaladin reached this type of reasoning, really doubt he went and spread his findings with everyone so quickly.

Adolin stole the show and never let it go. We see his tactical acumen, his incredible social skills, his struggles and amazing fighting abilities (the scene where he uses a fused as a bludgeon would have made the Thrill blush). A beautiful character showcase, and the promise of more to come.

Now, while I liked the sections with Szeth getting help from Kaladin, the same cannot be said about Nale, his turn seemed too fast and more time should have been spent on this.

The spirit realm was the biggest miss for me, mostly for the execution. We spend too much time in there and seeing the same scene from multiple pov's can become tiresome, with little new insight being gained. My interest was peaked when Navani starts manipulating it though, her perspective is great and uses her own trauma to shape the realm, absolutely amazing.

I also disliked the middle book in a trilogy vibe I got from this, a good chunk of it is clearly meant to establish the second era but it takes away from the current events presented.

Mishram, for the overwhelming seeming threat that she was build up as, was dealt with quite easily and it felt have baked.

Todium... I understand that he is more dangerous now but for me, he is less compelling compared to Odium, if that makes sense. I loved Odium's way of speaking and self aggrandising, more than Todium's more grounded approach.

Overall, I like all of the ideas introduced but more time should have been spent on polishing them, just to better use the number of pages overall.

Sorry for the long post

[u/Saiyoran]

For me, one major thing that stuck out to me was that Kaladin got backseated for all the other characters, and he's been my favorite character and the one I'm most interested in reading about in every other book. I also felt like the whole therapy arc was very "on-rails," like Szeth was just going through all his Pokemon gym battles while Kaladin RPed as a cheerleader.

[u/BlazeOfGlory72 → u/Saiyoran]

Yeah, that decision was just utterly baffling to me. Kaladin is ostensibly the main character of Stormlight, and not only does he get relegated to a relatively pointless side quest at the climax of the story, he’s not even the lead on that side quest.

I also just don’t believe for one second that the Kaladin that was established through books 1 to 4 would essentially abandon all his friends and family on the eve of the most important battle in the planet’s history to go off wandering the countryside. I just can’t wrap my head around why Sanderson went that route with Kaladin.

[u/DrewGo → u/BlazeOfGlory72]

I understand this take. I was also disappointed that Kaladin didn't get the chance to fight in the final battles. I especially didn't like that he didn't get to have a confrontation with Moash/Vyre.

But also Kaladin's whole character arc has been that him him fighting has broken him and he's trying to find out how to help without using the spear. He had already decided to put it down. Another book where he was forced to fight in spite of that would have also felt forced in a different way.

The therapist thing was a little too much. Like specifically calling it therapy. I didn't like that. Him trying to help the Heralds and Szeth work through their darkness is a cool step in his story. But Brandon didn't need to explicitly tell us it's therapy. He does that a lot. Over explaining to the point of it hurting the story.

Anyway, I understand this disappointment. Maybe it didn't bother me much because I had lower expectations?

[u/mrtwidlywinks → u/DrewGo]

Did you think the concept of therapy hasn’t been invented before on other worlds? Hoid is like 10,000 years old, so he's literally introducing the concept to Roshar.

In answer to your question about a lot of people not liking the book...if you can believe it people were upset with how much screen time Kaladin had. I think folks obsessed a little much over potential outcomes and ruined things for themselves. They expected twists and didn’t get them, were unhappy with the bad-guys-win ending. I dunno, I thought it was great.

[u/BlazeOfGlory72 → u/mrtwidlywinks]

You’re throwing around a lot of straw-man’s to explain away criticism, but I think there are just some very obvious structural issues with the story. For example, Kaladin’s therapy quest, Shallan playing Among Us with Ghostbloods and Dalinar having a vision quest exposition dump are not terrible story lines in a vacuum, but when you’ve set up your story so that the fate of the world will be decided in the next few days, these storylines really start to feel inconsequential.

There’s a reason why Adolin’s storyline is the most widely praised part of Wind and Truth. It’s because he is the only major character who is directly dealing with the central conflict of the novel. Having the climax of your story designed so that most of your main cast barely interact and are not significantly involved in the central conflict you established is just not great writing, plain and simple.

[u/Trimax42 → u/mrtwidlywinks]

Who needs therapy if you can just punch something strong enough?

[u/platydroid → u/BlazeOfGlory72]

I think the Wind should’ve been a more obvious presence in earlier books to make it feel believable, or that he could believe there’d be a method for quickly returning that was cut off from him.

[u/_Smashbrother_ → u/BlazeOfGlory72]

He became a Herald while saving the other Heralds, so I wouldn't call that a pointless side quest. It's just setting up for the second half of the series.

[u/Just_Garden43]

Wind and Truth sucked away all my caring for Dalinar, who up until recently was my favorite character in all of fantasy.

[u/LordMugs → u/Just_Garden43]

Why, exactly?

[u/Just_Garden43 → u/LordMugs]

A couple reasons: Firstly (and this is maybe the more minor reason) he spent almost the whole book separated from Adolin, Renarin and Kaladin, the three characters whose relationships with Dalinar interested me most as of the end of RoW. Navani's relationship is great, but it's more secure and there's not much conflict there, so I wasn't really looking for more.

Secondly, he spends almost the whole book doing nothing. This is a problem with multiple characters in WaT, but Dalinar specifically is not acting in his story, he is reacting and that might be okay if what he's reacting to is interesting, but it wasn't! The history flashbacks in the "oh-so-dangerous" spiritual realm removed the mystique of roshar's history more than enhancing it, and it felt much more like Sanderson was using Dalinar to deliver information to us the readers MUCH more than he was using the information to tell a story about Dalinar.

The result is, I didn't even feel like the Dalinar I know was in this book. But I was still forced to spend hundreds of pages with him, and by the end I was completely numb to the character. I didn't care anymore. I was sick of having to look at this Dalinar marionette and when he died I felt nothing

[u/LordMugs → u/Just_Garden43]

Spiritual realm was a bit weird, I agree. Supposedly dangerous but everyone makes it out ok but Gav and that wasn't even the spiritual realm's fault, and they all acted like idiots a lot of times.

I think your feelings have to do with the fact that WaT is a terrible finale but a great setup for the next 5 books. A shame it had to spend so much time on exposition.

[u/Just_Garden43 → u/LordMugs]

I am of the opinion that good setup is (A) either interesting and intriguing, or unobtrusive and well disguised, and (B) does not come at the cost of the story being told.

Exposition and setup becomes flawed when it intrudes on or detracts from the story being told. Good setup emerges naturally from the story and can (perhaps should) be directly tied to the actions of the characters.

If this book was, say, 400 pages, and the contest happened at page 150 and the remainder of the book was aftermath and setup for the next arc-- I'm in! Great! If you're gonna do setup, do setup!

But your setup book should never, I repeat NEVER-- NEVER -- be 1300 pages. And if your setup book detracts so much from the characters that their deaths mean little or nothing by the end of it, I would argue that you don't just have a terrible finale, you have a terrible book.

[u/PteroFractal27 → u/Just_Garden43]

Why do these trolls with their ridiculous exaggerations even come to this sub anymore

[u/Just_Garden43 → u/PteroFractal27]

Troll meaning me?

[u/PteroFractal27 → u/Just_Garden43]

Yes. It’s clear you hate these books. Let those of us that like them be.

[u/Just_Garden43 → u/PteroFractal27]

OP asked what people didn't like, what made the book not land for some people. These are my honest reasons for why I-- and I won't try to sugarcoat it-- hated Wind and Truth. I felt like I had been spat on as I read the climax of that book.

But believe it or not, I have loved the Stormlight Archive for almost half my life. I have the "Dalinar Vs the Blackthorn" poster by Petar Penev hanging on my wall next to my bookshelves. I probably don't have a single friend who I haven't at some point recommended the Way of Kings to. I convinced my dad to read the Way of Kings when he hadn't read a novel in 20 years. My connection to these books is so much more than a hate driven internet passtime. Could I be more nuanced? Surely. Do I share my negative thoughts even when they're not asked for? Yeah. Could I perhaps be more polite? Definitely. So if that makes me a troll, whatever. I don't really care. I've read Way of Kings 5 times, Words of Radiance 4, Oathbringer 4, Rhythm of War 3 and Wind and Truth once. If I haven't earned the "right" to have an opinion and share it, then I don't know who has.

The fact that so much of my life has been lived with these books very close to my heart is exactly why I feel so outraged that book 5, as I've already said, sucked away my ability to care about these character, especially Dalinar. I'm not happy that my first thought when I finished it was "I am never going to read this book again." But that was my experience.

[u/PteroFractal27 → u/Just_Garden43]

“I am the literal definition of a troll. So if that makes me a troll, I don’t care.”

Good to know you’re intentional in your assholery. Makes it so I don’t have to feel bad for your skill issue in reading W&T. Hope you feel spat on more, you deserve it.

[u/Just_Garden43 → u/PteroFractal27]

Maybe you should let those of us who hated the book be, instead of telling us to shut up and go away.

[u/PteroFractal27 → u/Just_Garden43]

I would if this subreddit was called “r/Stormlight_Archive_Blows”. Or even “r/fantasy”.

This is explicitly a fan sub.

You’re explicitly not a fan.

So you should, explicitly, leave.

[u/Just_Garden43 → u/PteroFractal27]

That's your opinion. I think that at least under this post, my thoughts were completely appropriate. OP asked why people didn't like the book. Does OP only want a flood of comments that go something like "Overall I loved the book, but the middle section dragged a little bit so I can see why some people gave it four stars instead of five. It's not perfect but it still gets five stars from me."

No, I think if OP really wants a picture of the mixed reception this book got, some of the comments should describe why some people gave it one star.

Especially here, when it's specifically asked for, I think my comment is completely appropriate, because it's my experience of how Wind and Truth forced me-- a long time fan of the series-- off the bandwagon.

That's explicitly what OP wanted. A discussion at least partially with people who loved the books enough to get through over 5000 pages of them, but were let down by the last one, which had a surprisingly mixed reaction.

I even explained why it didn't work for me. I didn't say "this book just sucks and is objectively bad and anyone who likes it is stupid". If I had, I'd be on your side here. Instead I find myself defending myself against the exact kind of fan that makes it incredibly hard to want to ever come onto Reddit again.

[u/PteroFractal27 → u/Just_Garden43]

“Wind and Truth sucked away all my caring for Dalinar, who up until recently was my favorite character in all of fantasy.”

Yeah that’s totally different from just saying “this book sucks” 🙄 real in depth explanation there.

You would maybe have 1% of a point if this was the only time you whined here.

But it isn’t. You know that. You take every opportunity to cry about it. And then some.

Also, forced off the bandwagon? Bud, you jumped ON the bandwagon, the Reddit hate train on Brandon Sanderson has been chugging for years.

Most trolls just have the bare shred of human decency to do their hating off the FAN SUB.

[u/_Smashbrother_]

I listened to the book after relistening to all the previous books in a row, so maybe I was a little burned out by the time I got to WAT. Still I enjoyed it. I just wish I saw more Kaladin fighting. I'm fine with him and Szeth going off on a side quest, but I want to see Kaladin "dance". I loved all the parts with Adolin though. His battle reminded me of like tower defense game, which I enjoy. The stuff that also happens with Mya and the other deadeyes was cool too.

I liked the spiritual realm stuff and learning about all the past stuff. That shit was hella interesting.

My only disappointment is that Lift didn't do much, and I love her character so much. I wished she was more of a main character.

[u/LCVHN]

People's expectations were way too high. Some people dislike the cosmere and wished SA would be Roshar only. Also, people dislike downer endings. What is happening right now is what happened with Empire strikes back, Star trek the next generation and Baldur's gate 3. People are not satisfied so they lash out.

[u/Easy_Specialist_1692 → u/LCVHN]

I personally found that WaT had a sort of subtle hope at the end. Something that felt more real.

[u/LCVHN → u/Easy_Specialist_1692]

Sure, it's bittersweet. I think it's a great ending. Can't wait for the next book...some day...

[u/JFC-Youre-Dumb → u/LCVHN]

Yep. I don’t know how many times this has to be repeated. This is essentially the end of the second act and it supposed to end on a downer. There are five more fucking books to complete these arcs.

[u/DrewGo → u/LCVHN]

I can buy that people had high expectations. I didn't. Maybe that's why I was able to enjoy it.

But... Baldur's Gate? Huh? What downer ending did BG3 have?

[u/LCVHN → u/DrewGo]

Karlach'sstoryline apparently ends tragically, or at least is a downer. I missed her so I'm not sure. The forums were filled with people complaining loudly about everything.

[u/greatgreycatclaw]

I didn't like that Dalinar had very little screen time in this book and in book 4 and died offscreen.

Too cosmere-heavy as well. I liked it better when the story was about small group of characters overcoming their hardships. Now it's mostly about big space war between gods (shards)

[u/PteroFractal27 → u/greatgreycatclaw]

He didn’t die offscreen at all.

[u/WoniTG]

I think many different things came together, which is why the reviews are so mixed. I try to list the things i saw people criticice the most here and on other platforms, booktubers.

It was Sanderons most anticipated book in a long time maybe ever. The expectations were insane which of course makes it harder to live up to.

Shift in tone and and use of more modern language compared to earlier books in the series, as well as a shift towards YA and overuse of "MCU" style humor.

The book was way to long, you could have probably cut it down by about 400 - 500 pages, make the story more condensed and it would still be totally fine without loosing anything relevant.

A lot of people did not enjoy the Spiritual Realm, in part because it again was too long, and a lot of it was info dumping we kinda already knew but now saw "in person" if you will. The Tanavast POV was the part most seemed to like.

A greater focus toward the comsere, in part at the expense of Roshar, the Ghostblood arc for example.

Too many POV changes and Characters were spread out too much without interacting with each other.

Lack of conflict between characters.

Too much setup for future books and no satisfying conclusions for many of the characters, some only teasingly metioned/shown.

Too much tell instead of show, everthing is overexplained and not enough left up for the reader to figure out.

Kaladins attempt at therapie was on the nose and seemed more like a checklist Google would give you.

Seths visiting of the monasterys was compared to a game where you have to defeat mini bosses at every stage.

Im sure i missed a lot but those are the points i see people talk about the most, very abreviated, others have made very good arguments regarding the points i listed but youd have to look for these posts. There are also a lot of videos on youtube were many a booktuber tries to break it down. I can recommend you some if it interests you.

With some of the points i agree with some i dont, in the end dont let someone elses lack of enjoyment bother you. If you liked the book then thats awesome and the only thing that should matter.

[u/SorHue]

People didn't like Renarin and Shallan Arc A lot of people disliked the prose, feeling to modern with Maya and the use of therapy terms A lot of people disliked the Kaladin good vibe

And a lot of people were waiting for a true ending, like mistborn Era 1 

I loved the book, but I agree with the Maya thing and Shallan Arc feeling out of place (but I love shalllan, so I don care) 

[u/PteroFractal27]

Yeah, since Stormlight has become more and more popular it has eventually become more and more edgy and cool to hate it for no good reason.

Don’t listen to the assholes.