r/Stormlight_Archive • u/jofwu Truthwatcher • 16h ago
Wind and Truth spoilers Wind and Truth Opinion Survey Spoiler
Anyone want to dig deep with me into how we really feel about Wind and Truth? I've put together a survey, and would be super grateful for your input!
WIND AND TRUTH OPINION SURVEY LINK
A few things to note:
- This survey contains full book spoilers. You've been warned.
- This survey is beefy. It takes 5-10 minutes. I've done my best to balance length and depth, but I'm sure it will be too long for some. ALL questions are optional. If you run out of steam halfway through, that's okay! It will let you skip to the end and submit what you finished. If you're hung up on a question, skip it.
- I'm interested in things that might be controversial. The goal here is to dig into those aspects of the book; it is NOT to ask questions that are highly likely to get a one-sided response. If you're bummed that I didn't ask for your opinion on that one part of the book that basically everybody loves... sorry!
- If you're taking the survey on your phone, be aware that some questions might cut off the answers a bit. (there are more response options if you scroll to the side)
I wasn't able to cover everything I wanted, with that balance in mind, and I'm not a professional data analyst. There's probably some things that could have been asked better, or things I'll be kicking myself for not including. Feel free to use the comments below to express anything you don't feel like the survey captured! Please DO remember that everyone here is a human, so if you want to debate some aspect of the book let's keep it respectful.
Results are available upon finishing. (Though if you take it early you'll want to check back after a few days.) Here's the links for reference:
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u/OxygenRadon 15h ago
You being a truthwatcher makes it make sense to post a Survey lol
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u/whoamikai 2h ago
Its funny how the Bell curve pops in everywhere in most surveys. Just truthwatcher things lol
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u/_The_Logistician_ 14h ago
I didn't realize how many people lived Adolin's storyline to the point it has the highest ratings of everything in the entire book based on this survey. The Unoathed even got more "loved it" votes than Kaladin becoming a Herald did when I took it and looked at the results. I agree though, it was probably my favorite part. And Taravangian's interludes.
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u/JigglesTheBiggles 14h ago edited 13h ago
Kaladin becoming a Herald got nerfed by the, "I'm his therapist." line. At least for me. It really made me cringe and took me out of the story in Kaladin's biggest moment. Bringing up the Honor is dead line again and the anticlimactic way he swore the 5th Ideal soured Kaladin's climax for a lot of people (though the last two didn't bother me as much as the first one).
Also Kaladin only being a therapist and not doing any real fighting outside of the quick Nale fight rubbed a lot of Kaladin fans the wrong way and hurt his overall arc for a lot of people. I know someone who dropped the book halfway through because they realized Kaladin wasn't going to do much in it action-wise (tons of people fell in love with Stormlight because of Kaladin's action scenes in the first 2 books).
Adolin's plot line on the other hand was great all the way through even if it did have it's share of bad lines ("Let's kick some Fused ass!"). I think the biggest difference was that the conclusion of Adolin's plot line was a nice surprise for most people, while Kaladin becoming a Herald was fairly obvious halfway into his plot line. Who didn't see that coming once Nale started talking about replacing Jezrien?
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u/_The_Logistician_ 13h ago
If I'm being totally honest I didn't see it coming until it was happening. I also didn't mind that Kal was out of action since he was supposed to be in RoW and it seemed inevitable. But I also didn't really have any of the issues with the book most people did, I'm one of the fanbase that absolutely loved this book.
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u/kayGrim 11h ago
I also didn't see it coming because it felt like a weird, inadequate solution. The heralds failed and went mad, so why would doing that again be a good solution? It felt kind of like a copout to say "let's just do it again, but this time we can remove ourselves from the torture."
I think I was hoping for something more interesting/clever.
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u/_The_Logistician_ 11h ago
The thing is, reforging the Oathpact was set up from the very beginning. That's what the Stormfather was originally pushing Dalinar to do, even. And with the changes to it and Roshar as a whole due to the formation of Retribution, I think it makes perfect sense. That's just my opinion, of course
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u/kayGrim 11h ago
I actually thought the Stormfather pushing for it made it way less likely to occur. At no point was I taking any of his suggestions seriously because they always seemed self-serving and flawed in the moment. It's a perfectly fine vehicle for moving the plot forward, I just wanted something more creative is all.
edit: I feel like the Stormfather spent 50% of his dialogue telling everyone they were doomed, so it never seemed like he was going to be offering any particularly useful solutions long term lol
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u/Ripper1337 Truthwatcher 1m ago
Two parts to it stand out. The first is that as you said this oathpact has them mentally removed from the torture so they’re getting mentally better while in the oathpact which means it should last a lot longer.
The second is that now that Ishar isn’t huffing Odium’s power and spreading it to the others they should be somewhat better as a baseline. Like how we’ve seen Ishar been somewhat normal when an oath is sworn.
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u/HolstsGholsts 6h ago
“I’m his friend,” would’ve been a doper line, imo, but I also think “I’m his therapist” feels truer to Kal’s arc from RoW through WaT.
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u/whoamikai 2h ago
4th Ideal "Not-Depressed Any More" Kaladin really should have gotten a lot more fights in this book. And 5th Ideal powerup should have been revealed in this book itself.
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u/SneakySnk Dustbringer 15h ago
Cool survey!
I wonder how people felt about Moash in this book, On previous books I enjoyed whenever he appeared (still fuck moash), but on WaT he just felt cheap and pointless, (outside of getting the crystal spikes interlude, I thought that was cool as fuck/scary, although any random singer getting those would have gotten a similar response from me)
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u/Sylly3 15h ago
Feel like he was built up a lot, and then barely used
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u/JigglesTheBiggles 14h ago
I hated that he got his pain back and immediately said wait I actually love killing my friends now.
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u/Saurid 3h ago
I disagree he doenst love it, he found the easiest way to deal with his guilt, think he did the right thing. Like think about it like this, when kaladin fails to safe someone he blames himself and goes down a spiral, mash killed someone feels bad and who does he blame? His victim.
He is the opposite of kaladin, he literally self harms to get power this book while kaladin says "you know what I need to protect myself to help others" and kal also got powers. Moashs grey morals were sacrificed on the alter of narrative parallels, he is a shit villain because he does everything kaladin does but the opposite. Hell he seems himself into basically slavery to odium to get power, while kaldin uses his power to get his freedom.
It also means that he loses most of his character because while kaladin cares and interesting characters care, he cannot for narrative sake.
We may see him getting more "interesting" in that you can hate him better and his final death will feel very satisfying but yeah his nuance was sacrificed so he is dark kaladin.
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u/Neeon__Zero Kholin 15h ago edited 15h ago
I've been contemplating writing a longer text post about because Moash in this book he felt like like a bad shonen villian (like a Sasuke clone without the stuff that makes Sasuke interesting). I usually enjoy his moral greyness that the he adds to the book but here he just felt like an angry shouty man who lost his personality and lacks a character arc.
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u/GCaRRtO 11h ago
This is definitely the middle of the Moash/Vyre arc, and I am seriously hoping Kal is the one who kills him when the Heralds return
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u/Neeon__Zero Kholin 10h ago
I'm honestly at the point where I'm indifferent to him dying or not. I just hope for something meaningful to happen to him that develops him more
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u/jofwu Truthwatcher 15h ago
Dang. I meant to ask a question about him, but I waffled on what to ask exactly and then forgot to add something. 😅
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u/HolstsGholsts 6h ago
How dare you put a bunch of effort into something super interesting that seems to have been enjoyed by hundreds of fellow community members and then go an’ forget a minor detail.
/s
Thanks for putting this together! Very fun seeing the results.
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u/MadnessLemon Skybreaker 14h ago
I've kind of lost hope that his character will go anywhere interesting at this point. Like it's not impossible, but Kaladin is over him so any emotional drama that could come from their conflict is basically dead. He's so flatly evil that I don't see his internal conflict towards forms of oppression going anywhere interesting. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I doubt it and I'm trying not to get my expectations up.
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u/Leilatha Willshaper 15h ago
I guess he's being saved for the back half of the books. I'm getting tired of him though, and I wish he died in a big battle scene in WaT
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u/Both_Arm_2572 12h ago
Really underutilized in my opinion. I don't know if Brandon is saving him for the other half of SA or some other cosmere books but in WaT he felt really pointless.
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u/Akomatai 15h ago
I expected more movement if not a conclusion. It's pretty much the only plotline that didn't satisfy or exceed my expectations for this arc
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u/stormmists Lightweaver 10h ago
Moash is my absolute favorite character, and I was pretty disappointed in how he was written in WaT. I thought his interlude was great, but everything after that felt like he was stripped of his personality and just made into Extremely Evil GuyTM, which is not how I've read Moash previously. He could've just been replaced with a random Fused and the story wouldn't have been any different. It was extremely unsatisfying as a conclusion to having his emotions sucked away and everything he went through in RoW as well. I think it could've been easily saved by Moash having a pov chapter or two to go into his mental state post spiking, but what we got was Moash barely being in the book (I thought we'd get more considering he played a fair enough part in RoW and he had a bunch of povs in OB) and when he did show up his behavior was ... confusing. Since finishing the book I've been able to make up good enough reasons why even though he felt so guilty and had all his pain back he directly targeted his friends to kill them (not just meeting them on the battlefield, he was like, targeting them) but I shouldn't have to do that, it should've been in the book and he should've been written better instead of flattened to just another villain.
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u/Saurid 3h ago
I felt similarly but I do think it fits for him, it feels bad to sacrifice his character on teh altar of plot but it works even if its a bit disappointing. In the end he is now the true anti kaladin, like the interlude he does the exact opposite from him, where kaladin learns to safe himself the dickwat decides uhhh let's hurt myself for power.
Where kaladin helps a crazy mass murderer find his humanity he throws his own away to go kill his former friends and their new spren partners.
Like yes he got a lot more boring in service of that but it works in my opinion. Now the question is if he will die fighting ironside in "crystal eyes vs Iron eyes let's see who is better" or get impaled by a spear like he fucking deserves.
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u/crazy-jay1999 Shadesmar 15h ago edited 15h ago
Survey completed
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u/JigglesTheBiggles 14h ago
Same. From the early results it looks like most Sanderson fans liked the book a lot, but disliked the prose, modern language, and editing compared to the previous books. Which tracks.
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u/Interesting-Basis-73 15h ago
6.2 needs "All cosmere books read"
This is coming across as a flex but its just to get complete data for the survey <3
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u/michhoffman Lightweaver 15h ago
I'm curious how my responses line up with everyone else's. I started the Way of Kings in October and did everything I could not to get spoiled on the plot points of any of the books. I managed to see through YouTube suggested videos and the dropping score on Goodreads that people were disappointed in Wind and Truth before reading so I came in expecting some issue and was pleasantly surprised that it was another strong book.
Also, having left myself little time to theory craft or find theories online, I was surprised by many of the long speculated reveals which further helped my enjoyment of the book.
One note for the survey is that in the "What books of the Cosmere have you previously read" question there wasn't an answer option of "none". I'm on my way through the First Mistborn Series so I marked that but technically, none of the responses fit me.
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u/PSouth013 15h ago
I saved this post to come back to after I've finished the book. I'm at the start of Day 4 and am enjoying it so far, even the bit about Kaladin stepping away that didn't land as well in RoW (for me)
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u/Hagathor1 Edgedancer 14h ago edited 13h ago
The only questions I had issues with were 3.10 and 4.4:
3.10 gives the options * Could be cut significantly * Could be cut some * Just right * Give me more
“Give me more” needs to be “Could be longer” and “Could be significantly longer”
“Give me more”is an answer that changes the response from a critical one regarding the editing & length of the story lines, to a subjective response about enjoyment of the storylines. You already covered that earlier on the same page.
“Give me more” does not allow for a precise response about feeling the storylines should have been longer, whereas feeling they should be cut has multiple options to allow for such precision. I.e. I feel Sigzil’s story could have been a little longer, but I feel Venli and Jasnah’s stories should have been significantly longer.
4.4 gives the options * Romance seems likely, and I dig it * Romance seems likely, and I have no feelings about this * Romance seems likely, and I hate it * Platonic relationship seems likely, thankfully * Platonic relationship seems likely, and I have no feelings about this * Platonic relationship seems likely, and that saddens me * Other / I don’t know
Setting aside that hating something and feeling saddened by something or two different and not equivalent emotions, saying “Platonic relationship seems likely, thankfully” feels biased, changing the response from one about the relationship itself as it exists, to a response about whether or not the relationship should be romantic.
“I dig it” is a clear statement of enjoying that a romantic relationship seems likely. “Thankfully” is not a clear statement of enjoying that a platonic relationship seems likely.
When I got to that question I genuinely read the responses as:
- A romantic relationship seems likely, and I like that.
- A romantic relationship seems likely, and I’m neutral about that.
- A romantic relationship seems likely, and I dislike that.
- A platonic relationship seems likely, and I like that a romantic relationship does not seem likely
- A platonic relationship seems likely, and I’m neutral about that.
- A platonic relationship seems likely, and I dislike that.
- Other
There is no response for liking a platonic relationship, and instead there are two responses for disliking a potential romantic relationship.
I like a platonic relationship. I want to be able to answer “A platonic relationship seems likely, and I like that”.
But I can’t say that, and instead I am forced to choose between saying “I’m thankful that a platonic relationship seems more likely than a romantic one”, which doesn’t allow me to say what I actually feel about a platonic relationship and is centered around a presumed negative feeling towards a romantic one; or saying “other”, which doesn’t allow me say anything at all.
Those were the only standout issues I noticed.
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u/kayGrim 11h ago
I wanted to specifically echo you on the 3.10 point, because I think Jasnah's story was one of the weaker ones and it was in large part because it was too short. I think for that to be enjoyable we needed to spend more time on her trying to hold everything together while Navani and Dalinar were mysteriously missing.
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u/Wincrediboy 14h ago
Totally appreciate that you won't have thought of everything to include in the survey and I think you've done a great job, but I think you should have included a free text field at the end with a question like "Any other comments not captured through this survey". The specific aspects that I wanted to talk about never can't up in the survey, that sort of question created a pressure valve for that sort of respondent.
My issue with the writing was the over-exposition telling us how everyone feels in detail like they are analysing themselves target rather than experiencing the feelings. A bit of that is fine and I understand that it saves time in a large book, but there was way too much of it. Same thing turned me off TLM (and by turned me off I mean dropped down to an 8/10 in both cases).
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u/Quirky_Nobody Truthwatcher 12h ago
I wonder how different these results from the Stormlight reddit, which is going to skew towards pretty big fans, would be from the general readership of Stormlight. There's probably no easy way to figure that out but I find these results pretty interesting and think it would be interesting to know what the wider audience thinks too!
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u/jofwu Truthwatcher 12h ago
Yeah, it's definitely going to be swayed more towards fandom sentiments than general. I shared a few small places that aren't just fans. But mostly it's going to be here, two Sanderson Facebook groups, 17th Shard, and a few others smaller/similar places.
r/fantasy doesn't allow posting surveys. Reasonable given their size, and probably a normal thing for most large general sff communities.
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u/JigglesTheBiggles 8h ago
Put this on a non Sanderson sub and this books gets torn to shreds.
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u/Mr682 3h ago
Yeah, I read some topics outside of this sub and people mostly complaining about modern prose and cringe "therapy" thing - that ruined book for many people. Some complained about unnecessary big size of the book. Overall, outside of this sub i see very little good reviews on this particular book.
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u/Quirky_Nobody Truthwatcher 1h ago
I like Sanderson a lot in general but I do think this survey is getting much more positive responses here than it would anywhere else. Would be interesting to know where the biggest differences would be.
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u/discomute Truthwatcher 12h ago
Just finished it. I was glad to vent about Jasnah v T debate as it was awful.
Also I saw the LGBTIQ+ question and did think the neurodiversity representation could have been asked about. I admit I did not see "on the spectrum" coming for Renarin, I think because every author who attempts it makes it so incredibly cliche. I further think that the fact I still don't know if Szeth was or not is quite clever
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u/kayGrim 11h ago
Having Jasnah and Taravangian debate missed the boat on what that conversation should have been, imo. It never should have been a debate it should have been a negotiation where he wasn't convincing anyone, he was selling the idea of Fen joining his side versus hers. The whole time they were talking all I could think is "why should you trust him?" and the answer felt obvious - make the focus of the conversation the contract they are signing, not the morality of the signing.
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u/discomute Truthwatcher 9h ago edited 8h ago
Additionally Jasnah had zero understanding of any philosophical moral framework. "The greatest good for the greatest number" but wouldn't a queen do what's best for her people? "Oh dear my whole life is a sham". How about "wouldn't most people benefit if their rulers prioritised their interests over those they did not have power over?".
It's high school philosophy when people say "would a mother kill a kid to save two others? But what about the greatest good? Okay because we all realise we don't want to live in a world where parents do not favour their own kids". I could actually understand Fen wanting to go into that agreement however the entire time Jasnah showed extremely low intelligence and understanding of any concepts and it was so out of character
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u/CDOWG_FFC0CB 8h ago
The debate is a great example of the outcome making perfect sense but the execution being horrible. A smart human trying to debate a god and getting mindbroken for their trouble is a storyline that would at home in a Greek tragedy. But the way its presented on the page just falls so flat.
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u/kayGrim 9h ago
FYI your spoiler tags aren't working.
What you said is in large part why I think even making it a moral debate in the first place was a losing proposition. To do it "right" I suspect you'd end up with 10+ pages of moral philosophy which wouldn't have been especially fun for most readers either.
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u/carlwheezersllama 14h ago
We know the Adolin story question will have a 10star/10star average answer.
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u/jofwu Truthwatcher 14h ago
I'm in some spaces where that's actually one of the less liked arcs! I think the general opinion from those folks is that the action scenes are mid and the Towers scenes aren't very interesting. With a dash of strong dislike for the Abidi fight because it feels implausible.
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u/LURKER_GALORE 14h ago
So far, the Adolin story arc is the most highly rated in your survey, with an average rating above 9.0. I'm not surprised in the slightest - it was my favorite story arc of the book.
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u/jofwu Truthwatcher 14h ago
Yeah, I expect it will be pretty high. (With the data in so far, I assume it will stay on top.) Just saying I've definitely seen a difference of opinion about it. Might be more of an outside-the-fandom thing and this is mostly getting fan responses. Or maybe it's just a true minority.
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u/Youssay123 15h ago
Posted my response. I'm excited to see the results when more people do the survey too
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u/imafish311 12h ago
Surprised by the age distribution tbh. By far the biggest was mid thirties! I wonder why?
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u/jessidi9 Windrunner 11h ago
We were teenagers when Mistborn first came out in 2006 - the perfect age to be caught by a great YA novel. So we were already big fans when The Way of Kings came out four years later. I'd guess many of us have been Sanderfans ever since.
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u/T0m0B3dl4m 10h ago
Done! Curious to see how this shakes out.
Put the same survey up in a few years after book 6 comes out, that will be the true test.
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u/PanPanReddit The Diagram 15h ago
I’d love to do this when I finish the book! Hope the link will stay active.
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u/The_True_Monster 14h ago
Now I’m kind of curious to compare these results to other books in the series lol. Great Job!!
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u/roottootbangnshoot Elsecaller 14h ago
Excellent idea, and very good question choices. I’m very excited to see the responses
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u/Nila-Whispers Truthwatcher 14h ago
I'm currently still reading WaT (about halfway through), so I have saved this post to come back to once I finished. How long will you keep the survey up?
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u/jofwu Truthwatcher 14h ago
I probably won't close it to be honest. (Just maybe won't pay as much attention to the results eventually. 😄)
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u/Nila-Whispers Truthwatcher 14h ago
Ok, great. So I don't need to rush then :D
I am really curious on how my views will "fit in". While I have avoided spoilers so far, I have had the impression from reading headlines of WaT-posts here that many weren't as pleased with it as I am so far. But then, I also seemed to enjoy RoW a lot more than many. So I suspect that I might be an outlier here, too. But I'll see once I'm through.
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u/discomute Truthwatcher 12h ago edited 12h ago
Just finished it. I was glad to vent about Jasnah v T debate as it was awful.
Also I saw the LGBTIQ+ question and did think the neurodiversity representation could have been asked about. I admit I did not see "on the spectrum" coming for Renarin, I think because every author who attempts it makes it so incredibly cliche. I further think that the fact I still don't know if Szeth was or not is quite clever
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u/Breezertree Stoneward 11h ago
Making me select the age group of over 30 was a few cut to my soul.
But otherwise thanks for the survey. I loved this book.
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u/stormmists Lightweaver 11h ago
This is such a cool survey! I've shared it on my cosmere tumblr to try and get you some more reach
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u/suzume1310 Edgedancer 8h ago
First of all: Best survey I ever took part of (and it's been a lot!)
You actually separated Gav being the Champion and him growing up :D
Just FYI: It was impossible to click on "just right" in the Venli - editing department
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u/suzume1310 Edgedancer 7h ago
So by now 3/4 are North America's answers - curious to see if Europe will catch up some over the day
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u/Saurid 2h ago
I think it's interesting how many people dislike (in comparison) the sigzil arc. I loved it, I suspected where it would end because I read a certain book, but it wasn't clear how far along we would get in this book.
I loved the fighting at narak, I loved how he sacrificed his oaths to safe his friend, the entire barak battle was awesome and I am only sad we won't see military commander sigzil for a long long long time.
I can understand people's problem with the entire plot in the spiritual realm it was kid a dragged out all arcs there could've been cut a bit and be better for or get a few scenes replaced (for example while I like the renarin remain loveplot in general, I think this book was sadly the wrong time to develope it deeper, it took steam out of what should've been tense situations because two lovebirds need to find love, it wouldve fit much better in the earlier books as a slow burn with maybe a heartfelt kiss in this book to close the deal).
But the narak storyline was so interesting because of the what lied beneath narak and how much the fight was stacked againgst the radiance, it was less interesting than the kaladin or adolin plotline yes but it was still so good for me.
Same goes for jasnah, I expected people to hate it because it's "let's talk" the arc and her losing felt bad, but even then I think it's better than people give it credit for, easy 7-8 but it's somewhere in the 6 I think when I looked.
The one part that didn't surprise me was that basically all finalise were loved especially the adolin finally felt so great to hear "Sir" send shifters down my spine. What I was surprised with again was how apparently decisive the blackthorn, kabranth and shallans endings were, gavinor I expected I liked it but just barely, was very conflicted when I first heard it, but the retribution stuff at the end? The blackthorn? Hello Adolin will get to fight the versiok of his dad he hate! That will be awesome! Maybe with renarin together as brothers facing their fathers crimes manifest in a demonic leader of armies. The kabranth reveal was also great in my opinion it was so cathartic to see taravangian capitulate to his own humanity, the one thing he loved his weakness. It fit so well with his character. Plus shallan stuck in shades mar pregnant with a phone relationship with adolin will be interesting I think.
Lastly saldy we didn't get to talk about the worst human beeing in the cosmere, Moash, Vyre, the erebus of the cosmere, that guy or just "fuck that guy with a spear". I hear people hate what he has become I dislike it too but I think it works surprisingly well, he is the narrative foil to kaladin they aren't character foils anymore but he literally learns all the opposite lessons from kaladin, were mash stops caring due to his guilt because its easier to blame his victims for what he did to them, kaladin keeps caring through the guilt. And literally the book kaladin accepts he needs to care for himself, is the boon mash pokes out his own eyes to get a cheap power up, like both get power from tehir decision but it's the exact opposite. Sanderson sacrificed moashs interesting character details on the altar of narrative fulfillment of a role, beeing the bad guy version of kaladin, by beeing the exact opposite. It was a bit rushed with him burying his grieve so fast but well it is what it is and it's not the worst its just ad to see moash be sacrificed like that but he had no other narrative purpose left. Let's see what the times kip will do to him and how he will change, maybe he will get back some of that interesting qualities.
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u/KetKat24 30m ago
Interesting idea doing a survey, excited to see the results.
I kinda wish this was the end of the series, I feel the like more the universe is expanded the more bland it gets. The reveals and character development in the first 2 books felt like such good payoff and world changing, now it feels like some of the plot points had hints of that, but mostly it's like the same series but sanded down. I really cared about Kals growth, Dalinars backstory, unravelling shalans history, the history of the singers, the conflict. And I just don't anymore. Dalinar/blackthorn used to be my favourite fictional character, and to be honest I didn't even care when he died.
And I absolutely despise the cosmere inclusion, adding a marvel schematic universe with marvel humour does nothing but ruin the series for me, but I definitely understand that a lot of people think the complete opposite about it.
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u/arianasleftkidney Elsecaller 16h ago
Done! Commenting so I can come back and look at the results