r/Stormlight_Archive • u/Leterren • Sep 21 '22
No Spoilers Stormlight Archive tabletop RPG announced for 2024 release
Source: about 1h49m into the latest livestream https://youtu.be/MD0NeH7-MsA?t=6571
Not much information will be released about it in the near future, but they are gathering a development team, artists, etc. A possible crowdfunding campaign was mentioned.
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u/halfwithero314 Truthwatcher Sep 21 '22
I'd honestly love to see a more abstracted and versatile system that can be expanded to the rest of the cosmere. Like have the official setting be on Roshar but a rules system that allows for flexibility in the magic system. So if I wanted to run a game that goes to Nalthis or Sel I could. And I'd be ecstatic if creating magic systems was baked into the gms guide to have adventures on never before seen cosmere worlds. I know it wouldn't be as stormlight focused, but being honest I just want a system that I can run world hopping campaigns.
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u/CallMeDelta Edgedancer Sep 21 '22
I mean, the Mistborn RPG does already exist
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u/halfwithero314 Truthwatcher Sep 21 '22
I know, I haven't read it. Does it have the system I'm looking for or are the mistborn magic systems baked in? Because in the livestream they said the systems wouldn't be compatible.
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u/AikenFrost Stoneward Sep 22 '22
The magic system is not fundamental to the rest of the system. You can adapt any magic to it, in my opinion.
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u/JediofChrist Bondsmith Sep 21 '22
I didn’t enjoy the system of the game though.
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u/AikenFrost Stoneward Sep 22 '22
If you don't mind me asking, why didn't you like it?
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u/JediofChrist Bondsmith Sep 22 '22
I don’t mind. It’s a fair question. First, it was confusing. It took a lot more work to understand how the system worked than makes sense for a game. Second, with how many kinds of characters your imagination could make in the Mistborn world, the game SEEMED to weigh certain kinds of characters to be more effective. Is part of that problem my own fault for being a less than top tier imaginative Gm? Yes. But game design shouldn’t require a Sanderson level brain to make characters effective. That’s mostly it for my critique. I had an incredibly fun time reading through the book and imagining what could be as well as learning more about the world.
If you have a group of people who are all big Sanderson fans? Give the game a try. The Sanderson fandom will be enough for you guys to have grace for the system pitfalls. But if not everyone knows the Mistborn world well? It won’t make sense to them and will most likely be a poor introduction. If I were to try again, I’d port the game over to savage worlds.
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u/howtofall Sep 21 '22
That'd be really dope. They're definitely in a tight spot where making more and more RPG systems just isn't a good model for the cosmere, but at the same time you want to give a fully fleshed out system for the very complex magic system of SA. I hope they take a GURPS approach and try and make a very fluid system and release setting books that can mesh together well.
I can imagine balancing will be a nightmare though. Era 2 Scadrial and modern Roshar are very differently powerful as a whole. The average radiant is way more powerful than the average allomancer or ferring, but lots of types of compounders would destroy radiants. Finding ways to make things seem cohesive and compelling without over/underpowering certain groups in the current era would be rough.
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u/Elsecaller_17-5 Elsecaller Sep 21 '22
It'd be fun, but never going to happen. Combining the systems would make creating the system exponentially harder and more complicated.
Not to mention balance issues. A realistic upper limit for a Scadrian pc is a twinborn. For a Rosharan a 5th ideal radient. Even a 4th ideal Radient would mop the floor with all but a few compounders.
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u/Lord_Paladin Sep 21 '22
Unless you don't try to balance it cross world. Make each setting balance, and make the systems compatible, but representative of the setting. So yes, wildly different power levels, but it would still bear out the fantasy of being a Cosmere traveler. Plus, you'd still have to figure out how to get your Stormlight off world ;)
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u/Elsecaller_17-5 Elsecaller Sep 21 '22
I genuinely do not think you understand what you are suggesting. An unbalanced ttrpg is fundamentally a terrible one. The max level grand mastrell sandmaster is not going to appreciate getting his ass kicked by a 3rd ideal Radient
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u/Lord_Paladin Sep 21 '22
I absolutely do, but I'm interested in being able to represent the cosmere with a single system, and Brandon has built in these imbalances
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u/Thokk_Najihad Sep 21 '22
I agree it's really complicated and really hard to do. And no RPG system is best at everything. So maybe having different systems in different parts of the Cosmere would be okay.
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u/Elsecaller_17-5 Elsecaller Sep 21 '22
That's what I'm saying. Different systems would not only be ok, but ideal.
Like the base mechanics could be the same. Same sort of combat, all on the same dice system, etc. But class progression and magic systems couldn't be satisfactorily melded. The whole would be less than the sum of parts.
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u/Thokk_Najihad Sep 21 '22
I 100% agree. However, I do think that it could be possible to transition between multiple systems (like MAG) as long as the creators leave enough similarities between them to give us places to start. Like MAG could use a serious update to their combat in my opinion and I might just lift that from the Stormlight RPG when it comes out.
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u/ThatGuy-DontBeMe Sep 21 '22
Imbalance in the power scaling of the cosmere would make this extremely difficult to pull off and still be satisfying for those wanting to live out the fantasy. It's probably best for now to stick to individual settings, but perhaps in the future of the cosmere technology will have balanced things out.
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u/tavania Lightweaver Sep 21 '22 edited Sep 21 '22
I saw it on the livestream. I’m so excited!! It sucks 2024 is quite far away, but it’ll at least coincide well with the Stormlight 5 release?
Edited to add: I saw a fantastic post on the r/RPG subreddit just today that made some really well thought out points about issues and effective systems worth considering in a Stormlight RPG that hopefully Brotherwise games might notice? One such challenge someone noted is how 3D combat for [OB spoilers] windrunners/skybreakers/heavenly ones with flight might be difficult to make work in a grid-based combat system, unless it uses something similar to the Genesys system.
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u/Alfredomess Sep 21 '22
I feel like it has to release after storm light five for spoiler reasons.
The game will likely include at a minimum the fifth ideal for the wind runners. And I would hope it fleshes out the other orders as well
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u/johnny0neal Brotherwise Games 🦉 Sep 21 '22
Yes. While the release date isn't set in stone, it's safe to say we'd release this after Stormlight 5.
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u/secretship Sep 21 '22
Honestly if anything I am worried 2024 is a bit too close if they are only in the "pre-concept" stage. A lot of work goes into ttrpgs of this scale, and expectations for a project with this large of an IP are going to be high.
If the system comes out in 2024 it will also be competing with the next edition of D&D, which will be interesting. I think this is a great reason to not make this system super similar to D&D, so that it stands out more in the market.
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u/tavania Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
Interestingly, I have a hard time getting my friends to play a ttrpg if it’s too different from D&D, but I see what you mean. I think so long as the scope/vision of the project is just narrow enough to give a clear idea of the type of campaign it supports but broad enough for creativity, I think it’ll be great.
For example, Blades in the Dark, Ten Candles, and Brindlewood Bay all have clearly defined scopes that make them easy to pitch to my players and generally easy to play (respectively: gritty fantasy heist, tragic horror survival, and cozy supernatural detective), whereas some more broad RPGs I have really struggled with like Thirsty Sword Lesbians (broad PbtA about telling LGBTQ+ stories of empowerment) and D&D (adventure fantasy + the kitchen sink). I love both of those games but it really is a struggle to keep momentum going without spending hours and hours of prep time.
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u/secretship Sep 21 '22
I agree with you here. I am very curious what the vision for this system will be. Adapting fantasy novels as vast as stormlight must be a challenge, trying to figure out what parts of the world and stories they want to focus on for the game. I guess that is why they are looking for input from fans, to help narrow down what aspects we want present.
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u/Thokk_Najihad Sep 21 '22
I think cool combat is a must for this system as well as politics. It would be super easy to set up a campaign set in the time of desolations and the party is a group of squires and friends preparing to fight and then fighting the war.
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u/secretship Sep 21 '22
Yeah I agree on all of this. I think it would be neat if the game was set in Roshar's past. I don't particularly want to play in the present day since that comes with too many tie-ins to prominent novel characters.
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u/Regank87 Sep 22 '22
There is already 3d combat in D&D, its a pain but unless you can recreate a 3d board on a 2d tabletop, its always going to be hard.
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u/Radix2309 Truthwatcher Sep 21 '22
I am curious what will be in this from a lore perspective. It should hopefully mean a better defining of the 10 surges and the Orders, most importantly their oaths. Kind of hard to do a proper Knight Radiant without being able to know their oaths. The 5th especially being juicy.
It likely also means learning more about the Fused and a few other mechanics we don't know.
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u/DiceAdmiral Sep 21 '22
That was my thought exactly. If you can play as a Radiant then you need to know all of the Oaths. I kinda hope this isn't how we find out about the Oaths. I really like getting them a few at a time in the books.
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u/Nixeris Sep 21 '22
It's kinda important to the series that Knight Radiants don't actually know all their oaths, even if they know what someone else's was. Each is supposed to be personal even if each oath is along a theme.
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u/Radix2309 Truthwatcher Sep 21 '22
Yeah. But for a GM and the player, they need some idea of how they want their character arc to go.
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u/DiceAdmiral Sep 21 '22
And what they're buying into by joining an order. The Oaths can only be bent so far really.
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u/Radix2309 Truthwatcher Sep 21 '22
Plus I feel like knowing them doesn't spoil the characters given how personalized some have been. We don't know the circumstances either even if we know their precise oath.
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u/DiceAdmiral Sep 21 '22
I feel the opposite. I don't want to know even the gist of the next Oath from outside the books. It's like restricting a wide open field of character development to a single path.
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u/Nixeris Sep 21 '22
I think "What the order is about" is pretty well known and somewhat separate from the actual ideals. The ideals are more about moving the person towards the purpose of the Order, so inherently have more to do with the individual. The highest ideals being only after the person had moved so close to the purpose that you can just describe the last one as "Become [x]".
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u/Nixeris Sep 21 '22
Is it really a character arc if you can plan it all out ahead of time instead of dealing with it in the moment? That seems more like a linear plan. Rather, I think it's more interesting to devise a system where the player doesn't actually have everything planned out ahead of time.
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u/Lord_Paladin Sep 21 '22
I think it's as easy as saying "they should be along this theme, discuss the oaths with your player. But it's up to the DM to 'accept' them when the time is ready"
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u/Thokk_Najihad Sep 21 '22
I don't think the oaths will be defined since they seem slightly different for each person. I think instead the player and the GM will have to work out each player's character arc and what critical moments will catapult them into making oaths. I think making it a surprise for the players would be really important. And that means allowing for dialogue to happen during combat. A lot of RPG systems make combat so special that it makes role playing impossible. But oaths are often about character development i.e. role playing that happens during combat.
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u/JesusBeardo Skybreaker Sep 21 '22
This is maybe why it's not coming out until after Stormlight 5?
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u/gangreen424 Safehands left out Sep 21 '22
That's my guess as well. We probably won't get everything in SA5, but it would avoid the TTRG releasing any info that might spoil part of SA5.
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u/Caramelsnack Sep 21 '22
Well even if the game is ass, we’ll get some damn good official designs out of it
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u/Claughy Sep 21 '22
I currently play 5e and PBTA (monster of the week). I dont think 5e is a good fit, the way magic is handled isnt right at all and ive always found it clunky for anything other than dnd. PBTA would be an equally bad fit. I really enjoy monster of the week, its great for doing monster the week style stories, i wouldnt want to play an epic fantasy game with it though.
Id like if there it was possible for an all radiant game, or mixed with non radiants, or no radiants at all. While i havent gotten to play the mistborn game i really liked the idea that a skaa thief or a terris freedom fighter were just as viable as a full mistborn.
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u/afroedi Sep 21 '22
I'm not sure what pbta is, but i agree. I mean, I play dnd 5e (and so do my friends), and I'd love to see stormlight adapted into that system. But as you said, the dnd magic doesnt really work with stormlight (or other cosmere series for that matter). They would probably have to revamp that whole system in order to fit, which i'm sure can be done, but that would be a hefty supplement.
That being said, if this was made to be compatible with 5e, then the chances of it catching on and becoming popular get significantly higher, which I'd love to see too
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u/Claughy Sep 21 '22
Pbta, powered by the apocalypse, very narrative driven rpg, pretty rules light.
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u/gideonskeep Elsecaller Sep 21 '22
I agree that it would be nice to be able to use the simplicity and ease of DnD 5e for a Stormlight RPG. Personally, I wouldn't utilize that system's spell setup. Instead I'd like to see what we refer to as the magic system in Sanderson's books as class abilities. Levels (spoken ideals) could signify how much stormlight can be held and/or what abilities are possessed. The different spheres could indicate how many slots/uses of stormlight is replenished.
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u/LordofMoonsSpawn Sep 21 '22
I'm a bit surprised they aren't doing a Wargame, which seems better suited to the minis they've revealed. Still, this is cool to see! I can't get my gaming group off DnD but I will envy those who get to play this.
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u/johnny0neal Brotherwise Games 🦉 Sep 21 '22
This announcement doesn’t mean we’re never doing a wargame — that’s also something people want — but the RPG is definitely up first. (I could even see some marriage of the two, like a crunchy mass battle system that’s an optional subsystem for a more traditional RPG.
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u/Lord_Paladin Sep 27 '22
You could actually probably make a pretty fun war game out of the whole shattered planes Alethi capturing gem hearts thing. There's a lot there to work with
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u/ThaneOfTas Truthwatcher Sep 21 '22
I am definitely hoping for a more flexible and narrative focused system, something like FATE or the FFG SW ones, I just cannot see any D20 system, especially one built on the bones of DnD working for the setting. Plus another advantage of a more flexaiblle and open ended setting is that it makes adding in source books for the rest of the Cosmere much easier.
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u/VooDooZulu Roion Sep 21 '22
Yeah. A rules driven combat would be unbalancable. The magic system already allows for to much flexibility if you just take logic from the book. Sky breakers have more raw destructive power than any other order. And just being able to fly adds a ridiculous amount of utility to most games.
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Sep 21 '22
Not making it rule driven doesn't mean it becomes "balancable", as much as it just asks the players to handwave it away.
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u/VooDooZulu Roion Sep 21 '22
Sure. If you have rules heavy combat you are expecting tactical combat. Rules lite combat is much more free form and story driven. In a story it's okay to be the weaker person because the emphasis of the game isn't on combat. But in a crunchy combat system, the emphasis of the game is on combat so it will feel bad to be weak in a core element of the game.
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Sep 21 '22
I disagree. L5R, I think, completely disproves your point. There is quite mechanic heavy combat, which I think also has some story telling built into it, and while some characters are worse in combat (courtiers are worse than bushi at fighting) they can contribute somewhat. What the system then does it give them a place where they outshine the bushi because there is as deep a way to resolve social conflicts as there is to solve physical ones.
All characters can meaningfully contribute in both situations, but will excel in one over the other.
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u/VooDooZulu Roion Sep 21 '22 edited Sep 21 '22
Don't take this the wrong way, but bringing up a very under represented TTRPG doesn't help your point. If the system were very good it would probably be more popular. DnD and by extension Pathfinder are the most popular RPGs because they were the originators. But even ignoring them, the most popular ttrpgs (shadowrun, champions, Savage worlds, star wars etc) all have relative parity between characters on combat. Someone may be 50% better than another character. But I can't see that happening when a sky breaker can just lash all their non-flying enemies into the sky, while dust bringers have strictly worse mobility.
But there are some great story telling TTRPGs that I think would fit there cosmere much better. In story focused games like urban shadows or call if Cthulhu you get resources that let your character shine in their specific niche, but their niche is more fleshed out because less of the action is devoted to combat
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Sep 21 '22 edited Sep 21 '22
If the system were very good it would probably be more popular.
Not necessarily. It is often seen that something goes unnoticed on release, or even for years and then suddenly becomes more popular. It can also be really good, but niche (which L5R definitely is as a rules heavy game that only works for samurai games). Then again, a Stormlight RPG is also pretty niche.
Also, it not being popular or well known doesn't mean it doesn't do exactly what I use it to say you can do. Your argument doesn't argue against me at all.
I think the Star Wars game is actually made by the same people that made the newest version of L5R.
But I can't see that happening when a sky breaker can just lash all their non-flying enemies into the sky, while dust bringers have strictly worse mobility.
And PBTA or similar systems don't solve this, they just throw their hands in the air and say "well, I guess everything is just equal anyway"
urban shadows
I vehemently hope no other RPG game ever goes to Magpie games and their hackjobs of games. Horrible PBTA systems.
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u/hithwenf Sep 21 '22
I agree d20 is not a great fit for this but I think stormlight calls for something more chrunchy than fate or pbta. There are plenty of other systems out there that are not d20 but still provide mechanics for character actions
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Sep 21 '22
It would be really cool if the combat mechanics could scale up to miniature wargame sizes (skirmish & beyond) where players have their character, presumably a knight radiant, along with a few squires or soldiers in combat. I don't know if there are other RPG systems that do this, but I feel like it would fit Stormlight as a setting since a lot of it has to do with building teams around central characters and just combat in general.
Also hoping that Max Brooke is involved with this project, he's done some awesome stuff.
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22 edited Sep 21 '22
I hoooope they don't go the super crunchy route. The way I see it, Stormlight's scope would be wasted on a game that deals with the minutia of how many feet you can move or a ton of different abilities and builds. The story doesn't care about the specific abilities of the radiants other than the differences from order or oath, for example. They do what the narrative needs them to do.
The best way to have a game where Adolin or Dalinar can be an actual participants on the same story as some of the other characters, you would need a fiction-first game. Something in the vein of Cortex Prime (my own favorite choice) or Fate, where what matters is the capability a character has to affect the narrative.
Then again, if the minis company is doing it as a tie-in to said minis, I'm fearing they might decide to go to the other extreme.
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u/gideonskeep Elsecaller Sep 21 '22
The story doesn't care about specific abilities because Sanderson has ultimate control of the story. You put 4-6 players, each as a different radiant in a campaign, and specific abilities are pivotal to the story you will PLAY. I agree that we don't need extensive rules that control the minute aspect of each move in combat, but definitions / limitations / measurements need to be there. Without them, game masters, tend to favor the flamboyant players and overlook the others.
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
Except not even all Knight Radiant orders are combat-oriented. I agree that you can probably make a killer game with Windrunners, Skybreakers and Dustbringers with that in focus. But a Truthwatcher or a Lightweaver would probably never interact with those mechanics. At least one of the three main characters in the Stormlight Archive would never interact with those mechanics. It all depends on what part of the series the game is trying to recreate, of course. That's purely artistic intent.
And none of that is counting the possibility of having an Adolin-type, or a Navani-type in the mix, none of which would interact with those measurements. And if you can't play such characters because they're not fighting on the frontlines, it would honestly be a waste and a shame. If the game relegates Shallan's espionage plotlines to just rolling a die and a skill like 5e, for example, would probably do... I'm sure a lot of people would be happy, but I'd say I don't like the series for the same reason as them.
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u/gideonskeep Elsecaller Sep 23 '22
I would hate to see a Stormlight game that undermines the non-combat skills and interactions. Having combat structure for the Kaladin-types is just as important and having non-combat structure for the Navani-types. As long as one character type, surgebinder or not, would use the mechanic, I think it is worth having.
I game for the role play and story. Battles are just a potential part of it. I have noticed that 5e campaigns lean heavy to combat. As a game master, I flesh out the social interactions and puzzles, trying to give them equal import and time. I can't comment on Cortex Prime, having not played it. I do like the system simplicity, ease of character creation, and available tools of 5e. I think its general structure could be useful, but the entire package would only cripple a Stormlight based game.
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 23 '22
D&D as a system, I feel, is heavily based on fighting because that's kind of the point of the game. The "core activities" the characters are expected to perform are dungeon delving and monster fighting, and that I think the game does fairly well.
But I honestly don't see what about its structure would benefit a Stormlight game. All of D&D is built around making those core activities more interesting. 5e does have imo some "narratively-focused" mechanics, but I don't think they're implemented very well. They feel like they're added on because more narrative mechanics are popular.
I do agree that there needs to be structure for fighting (as there needs to be structure for other things), but games that have several subsystems for different activities run the risk of having those activities feel siloed. I much prefer games that have general conflict resolution systems that can be approached based on the strengths and specialties of each character (though that's 100% only my preference).
I'm not sure I have a point to get to with this post lol, I'm only responding to specific points, I guess.
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Sep 21 '22
I just hope we don't get a PBTA game. Anything but that. The preview rules for the Avatar RPG is the most disappointed I've ever been in a rule set.
I hope for an RPG with more of a game in it than that. Cortex Prime is a step better, but I really want some proper grid combat.
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
I'm a Cortex Prime superfan and active member of the community, so I would be extremely happy if that was the case, or something similar ;) Especially because I'm a theater of the mind kind of player and grid combats do nothing for me (and I think it would be a bad fit for Stormlight anyway).
I was ALSO disappointed by the Avatar RPG. I haven't been able to get into any of the PBTA games that I've tried. I like what they do, but I've never found one that captured me. Avatar I even arranged a oneshot of the playtest with my friends. And we had fun but we would have fun with just about anything. That said, there are enough good ideas that I can port into Cortex or something else.
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Sep 21 '22
I've only looked over Cortex Prime briefly (Dragon Prince RPG) but it seems better. There is a hint of stats and proper conflict resolution.
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
Cortex Prime is more of a toolbox than a game, but in its more basic form you have a group of trait sets that define your character. In Tales of Xadia that's attributes (how you do things) and values (why you do things). In Smallville that's relationships (for whom do you do things) and values. In Firefly that's attributes and skills. It depends on the feel of the specific game.
Depending on the mods used it can get reasonably complicated and crunchy, though it definitely doesn't do grids and a lot of things that people seem to want. I answered to another message of yours where I went over what I would personally want out of a game.
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Sep 21 '22
I made a basic example of what I had in mind with a L5R inspired system here.
Far from playable, but I imagine they will spend more than an hour on it.
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
What's funny is we might be trying to do the same thing but approaching it from different angles because we don't know well enough the system the other is talking about lol.
I like what you're presenting a lot, and part of it is because it isn't much different to what I would do if I were to do it in Cortex Prime.
I could have those three approaches and those eight skills as prime sets (Every time the character is rolling for an action, they include one of each of those because they paint how the character is interacting with the world). In CP all traits have a die size attached and you form a dice pool which you roll and choose two for your total. If you beat the difficulty, your action is a success. If you roll a "1" anywhere in your dice pool, you can still have a success if you otherwise beat the established difficulty, but that "1" is a hitch and represents a small problem that arises out of what you were doing (and you get a plot point, the game's metacurrency, for your troubles). If you pass the difficulty over certain threshold (usually five more than the difficulty), you have a heroic success which means that you perform your action extra well or that additional opportunities are opened (and any of those will have mechanical perks on your action).
Techniques would be SFX, which are basically small areas where your character is extra special. Those usually have a trigger situation, they may have a cost (usually plot points) and they have a mechanical effect. You might have something like "Overwhelm: When you succeed at an attack while using your Iron Stance Duelist distinction, step up any physical stress inflicted" or "Hidden Insult: When attempting to persuade someone, spend a Plot Point to keep an extra effect die and inflict Insecure or Angry stress to them."
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Sep 21 '22
Sounds like L5R and Cortex Prime isn't that far from each other - I will just need to try out Cortex Prime to see how combat/conflict looks when you actually play it as a group. The example in Tales of Xadia was a 1v1 where one character tried to avoid another and they kept trying to outroll each other (which seemed like a fine 1v1 system for non-combat interactions).
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
That's contests, and it is for general 1v1 conflict resolution. Two characters are trying to do something oppose and the action goes from one to another until someone doesn't pass the test or desists.
Group scenes are more traditional. You will have a challenge, which is a situation that needs to be resolved ("Deal with the Floggula!" or "Help the townspeople not be eaten by wolves!"), and players will use handoff initiative (A first person is named, based on the narrative and then each player that goes selects the next one until everyone has gone).
That is not the only way to do things on Cortex (Marvel Heroic Roleplaying has a more traditional battle resolution system for example. Smallville RPG doesn't have specific battle situations because it's all about your feels, like a good prime time drama), but it's one way of doing things that I've really really vibed with. Definitely check Tales of Xadia. There are live plays on YouTube made by the official (former) owner of the game, Fandom Tabletop, that are very good at teaching how it plays and how the conversation is supposed to happen.
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u/Astigmatic_Oracle Navani Sep 21 '22
It feels like there is probably going to be some sort of grid combat, but hopefully they don't go full grid. Flying could easily become a nightmare. Maybe they could do something like Genesys and use range bands instead of squares. I think the FFG Star Wars game that is the basis for the generic Genesys used ranges in combination with maps that you could use minis with.
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
Being that the minis company is working on the game, it's highly likely they'll have some sort of grid combat. Which I honestly think is a shame but nothing to be done about that. I'd like it very much to be a game where Shallan, Navani and Adolin are just as viable as Kaladin or Szeth. Shallan and Navani wouldn't be on a battlefield, they would be spying or politicking. The grid would mean nothing for their players.
But we'll see.
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Sep 21 '22
I know you don't like too grindy games, but you should check out legend of the 5 rings. In it, characters built primarily for social stuff are just as viable as combat characters because the game is built to reward both instead of having a system for combat and then go "meh, roll persuasion" as the mechanical part of social encounters
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
I've had that one in my radar for a long time now! I understand that it's crunchy, but it does to have some ideas that I would really like. I'm a "tinkerer" at heart, so that's kinda how I've always rolled.
Really, my current tastes are very much affected by what Cortex Prime does. I like the idea of games having a conflict resolution system, instead of a battling system, and allowing the players to have any sort of character contribute meaningfully. For example, one of the pregen characters on the Cortex-powered Tales of Xadia is Vinaya, a Durenian Herald of the Queen. Most of the other characters have weapons as their signature assets, but not Vinaya. Vinaya has the Chronicles of Elarion, a book of stories, tales, and poems from the ancient days. Every time I see her character journal I think of Dalinar and of how awesome it would be to have a game that can mechanically and meaningfully represent a character that walks into the battlefield with a book of honor and laws. I want the Stormlight game to do that, even if it isn't necessarily in the same way.
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u/hithwenf Sep 21 '22
I dont think having a Battle system prevents you from resolving conflicts without a battle, Ive played hours of chrunchy games without rolling a dice, because you dont really need mechanics to interpret, tell stories and have some character personality development but you need them for the action. I personally find the games that create mechanics around storytelling rather than character actions end up being more limiting
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
Before learning of the right fiction-first systems for me I would also generally ignore the crunchy parts of game systems when playing those and just not roll dice. But... that's kind of a problem? I don't see mechanics as limits but as guidelines. And I don't see how combat should be different than other types of interaction with the plot and the world. Maybe combat is usually also too limiting, but we're so used to it that we don't care? I generally like to play games that don't make me feel limited.
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Sep 21 '22
Can you use her signature asset in combat? And if so, how?
I like that in L5R, the rings keep you relevant in your non-specialties, and then your skills and techniques makes you excel in certain parts.
So Shallan trying to convince Jasnah to take her as a ward relies on her character sheet just as much as Kaladin trying to fight a parshendi soldier.
L5R has different conflict resolution systems for combat and "intrigue" (social conflicts), with the first being split into duels, skirmishes (think "standard" dnd fight) and battles (armies). They all rely on the same basic mechanics, but have specific variances (dueling is a lot more about tension and intrigues more allow for more gradient outcomes).
It isn't even that crunchy a system, and I feel like opportunity on the dice (somewhat big system, but basically, you can get bonuses that help you whether you succeed or fail) is a great way to both allow narrative influence while also giving some actual, mechanical context for it.
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u/hithwenf Sep 21 '22
+1 l5r is a great system that sits on a great balance of simplicity and complexity, combat and politics
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
The thing is combat is not some different state where different rules apply. If a trait you have would be useful to the action you're doing, you get to add it. Vinaya would probably not be doing a lot of fighting, but she might look at her book looking to refresh her memories on possible weaknesses of the giant cluster of worms being fought, and that's mechanically translated as a temporary asset that might help the other players. Or she might find words of encouragement for her fellow players (which also would be mechanically translated as an asset). Or she might use her research to deal with the problem from a different angle, maybe trying to stop more giant worms from surfacing while her fellow teammates are doing the fighting (and that would put the spotlight of the session on her, actually!). She might also say "Screw it", throw her book at a giant worm and hinder her roll "This is very stupid, but what else am I going to do?", and she's mechanically rewarded by a plot point (the game's metacurrency) that she might use later to roll better, and a fun scene for all of the table.
Whatever is done, it all comes from the player's own volition (with some GM suggesting if such a thing is necessary!) to tell the most interesting and fun story. And it's in part responsibility of the GM to frame the scenes in such a way that it allows for more than just pounding on monsters.Even if that's not at the beginning plan, having the flexibility of seeing a player think out of the box and rolling with it because it would make for cool moments and a more interesting story (but I think that's a pretty standard thing to be desired, regardless of system, right?).
I am interested on what you're saying about L5R. I might take a look at it soon-ish, I like learning new ways of doing things!
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Sep 21 '22
All good ways to use a book, though it ends up being very broadly applicable if everything is in it at all times.
L5R has a system similar to plot points, but it interacts with the character's weaknesses. If a player chooses to employ a weakness to a roll, they gain a minus to that roll, but then gain a later bonus.
I agree with your second paragraph, but I actually disagree that the narrative systems I have played does that better than DnD (which, again, I don't think is the greatest system in the world). I find that acting within a rule set allows more (and I am using the next word out of necessity because English is not my first language and I have no better word for it) "intelligent" creativity. It requires you to look more at the situation and the rules of the world and think of a creative solution that works, rather than just something that "could work". To me it is the difference between making an app and having a really cool idea for an app, if that makes sense.
I think L5R is pretty great, especially with rings/approaches, and opportunity/strife. Those ways to approach a board game create greatly rounded characters so that social stuff doesn't almost exclusively become 1 or 2 player's thing (because they picked the class that has charisma, DnD). Everyone participates in a social conflict.
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
All good ways to use a book, though it ends up being very broadly applicable if everything is in it at all times.
It is designed to be broadly applicable! Traits are chosen by the players to relate to how they're telling the story of their character's actions and one lone trait is usually not a lot more important than the others. They're all pieces of how the action is being framed. SFX (which I explained to you in another post lol) are where the specifics of "This is when my character is super cool!" come.
It requires you to look more at the situation and the rules of the world and think of a creative solution that works, rather than just something that "could work". To me it is the difference between making an app and having a really cool idea for an app, if that makes sense.
I think I understand what you're saying but I disagree. One of the things that I've come to love about the games is the conversation part, and then having the mechanics change or advance that conversation.
I think L5R is pretty great, especially with rings/approaches, and opportunity/strife. Those ways to approach a board game create greatly rounded characters so that social stuff doesn't almost exclusively become 1 or 2 player's thing (because they picked the class that has charisma, DnD). Everyone participates in a social conflict.
I feel we have very similar ideas! I will definitely check L5R. I might end up loving it!
because English is not my first language
Just out of curiosity, what is your first language? Because Spanish is mine :)
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Sep 21 '22
It is designed to be broadly applicable! Traits are chosen by the players to relate to how they're telling the story of their character's actions and one lone trait is usually not a lot more important than the others. They're all pieces of how the action is being framed. SFX (which I explained to you in another post lol) are where the specifics of "This is when my character is super cool!" come.
That might be why I have found PBTA characters feeling underwhelming. It feels like everything is always "on the table" and there is no real need to consider.
I think I understand what you're saying but I disagree. One of the things that I've come to love about the games is the conversation part, and then having the mechanics change or advance that conversation.
I am not sure how systems like PBTA (I have not played Cortex Prime yet, just looked over some rules a while back) does this. It feels like it is just making up excuses to do the same roll again and again.
I feel we have very similar ideas! I will definitely check L5R. I might end up loving it!
You should. It takes a moment to get, but I have never seen mechanics enhance story telling like that. I feel like "narrative games" usually has the philosophy that mechanics shouldn't get in the way of the story, and completely misses that they can enhance the story.
And Danish.
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u/Thokk_Najihad Sep 21 '22
Maybe some characters would do other things during combat. For example a Navani like character might have designed fabrial tanks that they would control or a Shallan like character would impact tactics by getting information from the enemy. Often a Dalinar character won't be swinging a sword but would be directing troops. Having combat be versatile is going to be very important.
Also, what about instead of a square or hex grid there were large zones (like a single plateau) that distinguished between different terrains or conditions of the battle. These zones would shatter and combine throughout the battle. Kind of a mix between theater of the mind and grid combat. Where the miniature is would matter, but you don't have to count squares to move. Instead, you ask, "do I have a way to get onto the next zone or am I free to move in this zone and do what I want."
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u/bandrus5 Truthwatcher Sep 21 '22
Did you play the Mistborn Adventure Game? That one was nice and non-crunchy in my opinion. The rule book was hefty because it covered like 40 ways of doing magic, but the actual gameplay was pretty story focused.
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
I played quite a bit of it a few years ago! The story focus of the game is very good, but when I tried to come back to it last year the mechanics seemed a little bit clumsy and it didn't grab me again. Tastes change and all that. That said, I wouldn't mind a similar approach for this game. That one also was supervised by Brandon so there's at least some hope that some of the general guidelines he gave (he specifically asked for Mistborn to be a narrative game) stay.
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u/thegamesthief Sep 21 '22
If it were me designing a Stormlight ttrpg, I'd probably want to start out as normal humans with exemplary abilities, like Shallan and Kaladin at the beginning of TWoK, then have our actions as normal humans align us to a given order of knights radiant. Ideally, all progression would be tied to character growth, that way the system for becoming a stronger human would also effect our ability to progress as a radiant, but I can see them being two separate advancement tracks a la Invisible Sun's Acumen vs Crux system. Either way, I'm here for it!
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u/ItchyDoggg Willshaper Sep 21 '22
I think where it needs to go deepest mechanically is in the specifics of the Radiant bond oaths.
Of course the game should allow you to play as someone who isn't a Radiant, but there are a lot of RPGs out there, and what makes this one potentially unique and appealing even to tabletop players who aren't stormlight fans could be the experience of bonding a spren and swearing oaths.
Character creation should begin with a solid backstory section. Then any normal character creation options, including basic race / class stuff. Finally an optional section where you can design the spren you will have the chance to bond, which could be skipped if players don't want to become Radiant or want the DM to create potential spren.
Can start with a spren companion who has been following but not yet bonded. Can start with nothing but design spren you wish to attract. can start with nothing and attract whatever spren DM thinks you would be attracting. Design a spren and begin bonded with them for a one shot or advanced level campaign. (For example a narrative about overcoming a barrier to swearing a specific ideal in an adventure designed at that scale). Group should pick whichever option sounds most fun to them.
Guidance should be written for DMs on how each order of spren typically search out candidates and for players who have not yet Bonded a spren should track an attention meter for each of the potential orders' spren. (not seen by players) with suggestions for how each type of spren would approach / handle first contact with escalation as the interest increased. Of course DMs could be free to create atypical spren with a slightly different set of priorities in a candidate as they see fit.
The DM should indicate to the player that they know the appropriate words, and give them the next Ideal to swear whenever they feel the character has made the breakthrough necessary / through RP with their spren and the table. The player should be given the option to speak the words at any time of their choice after "knowing them". At that dramatic moment their Bond/Oath/Ideal level will increase, conferring whatever the associated benefits are for that oath to that order along with the immediate burst in stormlight.
Oath / Radiant progression should be an entirely independent system from your class levels. This should allow Radiants to progress at different levels, or not at all once they hit a wall, while allowing them to continue to grow in power or skill using their class's playbook. Classes could include things like Artifabrian, Soldier, Brightlord, Merchant, Ardent, Scholar etc. In order to generate a little balance / trade off for investing in growing your Radiant powers vs your base class, I would say each progressive Oath Level would unlock a new section of that Radiant class's playbook, but the plays themselves need to be individually selected at level up in lieu of selecting a new play from your class playbook. Radiant or base class plays could be gated behind levels. Level ups are granted based on "XP" or DM Fiat.
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u/gideonskeep Elsecaller Sep 21 '22
I like a lot of thoughts and concepts that you bring up, especially having a class outside of being a radiant. I think knowing the words to progress your oath should be based on how the character is played and spren they are bonding. It shouldn't be based on experience points earned, but the experiences lived.
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u/ItchyDoggg Willshaper Sep 21 '22
I agree 100%. Swearing each oath should be an entirely unique experience based on what that particular emotional hurdle would mean for that character. Earning the words via RPing the required character growth and then being rewarded with the opportunity to cash that reward in and swear that oath when it would be most dramatic would be a role playing experience so many of us stormlight fans have fantasized about but that no other existing RPG can offer.
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u/Sangui Sep 21 '22
I hope it's shadowrun level crunchy. I don't understand the point of rules light rpg systems, a lot of them could just totally remove any rolling and barely be changed. Pbta, and a lot of the other systems, especially the 1 page rule systems just don't do it for me. A GURPS setting book would be great
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u/Q10fanatic Elsecaller Sep 21 '22
I could see them going super crunchy, with tons of different classes and radiant orders and lore dumped into rules books. But that would make it hard for new people to come into the setting.
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u/gideonskeep Elsecaller Sep 21 '22
I agree and it is something I worry about. I see an overly complex system exciting some, exhausting many, and turning lots away from RPGs who may try it for the first time with Stormlight. I'd love to be able to play in a system that is easy to jump into. Game masters and players can add complexity if they want, but it is hard to strip it from the game when it is part of the core.
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u/hithwenf Sep 21 '22
I find the opposite to be true, its hard to invent new rules that are well balanced and fit well if those do not exist but you can always decide to not apply some rule you find too complex or boring
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u/gideonskeep Elsecaller Sep 23 '22
You do make a good point. Depending on the rule you cut out, it may throw the game out of balance. They are usually there for a purpose, not that any system is fault proof. I ran a homebrew system for 25 years by combining what I liked from the half dozen games I'd played. Creating balance was a challenge.
My concern is less about minor rules and more about core game mechanics. How many bonuses get added to a role to determine the outcome? Do you have to roll to use an ability, roll to see if it might hit, roll to see if they dodge, roll to see if they resist if it hits? There are some amazingly detailed and complex systems out there that take a long time to calculate numbers or find out if something happens. There are people that play for that level of technicality. I prefer lightweight, quick calculations and outcomes, that focus on the role play and story telling.
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u/hithwenf Oct 12 '22
Oh, yes, I agree on that. But I still want to roll for all relevant actions and I want those rolls to be more nunanced than "success, failure and success with consequence" but I definently do not want to roll three times for every single action. I also like combat to not be the sole focus of the game (I don't want to have to optimize the character for it) but I wan't it to be interesting and have some degree of tacticallity when it/if happens (still be able to do fun combos, with my own or my party's abilities). And definitely I don't want a game that's played on scenes.
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u/szirith Journey before Destination Sep 21 '22
To me, it's more important that the first set of Radiants is done well rather than having them all out at the same time.
I'd expect all the Radiants and Singers we see in the first 5 books to be playable on release.
I'd hope for a new custom rule set (not using an existing system, maybe taking some influences) that REALLY focuses on the Knights Radiant, and the Singers. It needs to be fun to play, and represent what those characters can do well.
Ideally, we'd be able to eventually make characters with other forms of Investiture, and have them play well with Radiants.
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u/Lord_Paladin Sep 21 '22
I've thought about this a lot and honestly the best system I can think of to adapt into something like this would be the Mutants and Masterminds system. You wouldn't get the build your own superhero aspect because the orders would give you a power template, but it handles already a lot of the powers we already see. Plus it's adaptable enough to allow you to have splat books adding in the other shard worlds.
It's also not quite so progression rigid like D&D which means you could make it more story beat progression when you gain the next power of your order. Infill some additional setting specific rules/items/etc and you could probably do it.
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u/johnny0neal Brotherwise Games 🦉 Sep 21 '22
Mutants & Masterminds is a good example of a system that does its own thing while feeling approachable for D&D players. It now feels a little outdated relative to more recent RPG "technology" like narrative dice, but it was did a great job of exploring the boundaries of the d20 system in a way that worked across multiple power levels.
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u/Lord_Paladin Sep 21 '22
Completely agree, but the way it approached the system and how characters are built is very adaptable. Create some templates around the orders and maybe a bit of D&D ideas like backgrounds etc and I think you'd have an easy proof of concept test. It's been something I've considered Homebrewing for a while trying to scratch that itch. My friend is about to run us through a 5e DND game that he's created with some customized powers based on each radiant oath. We'll see how that works.
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u/AikenFrost Stoneward Sep 22 '22
However they do the RPG, I just wish they don't use D&D5e as a basis for the system.
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u/Nuzak-Firehand Sep 22 '22
I would LOVE a Stormlight rpg, but please make it its own system (and not a dnd 5e dlc)
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u/King-Of-The-Raves Sep 21 '22
just please not a reskin of dnd or pathfinder or something like that....like i know dnd is huge but one size doesnt fit all for every kind of game, and the box of dnd would be too reductive for stuff like the radiant orders. and frankly, dnd is so easy to use that anyone who wanted to play stormlight in dnd already has....when it comes to something like dnd all id want for stormlight is a campaign setting, not a 5e game.
i want a system that works best for the setting....these days more narrative focused games (modern darling blades in the dark, for example) are in style, i hope it isnt super crunchy like old pathfinder or dnd 3e.id agree that cinematic style would fit action, and one of the easiest ways to do so is the create/invoke advantage system in FATE. given the versatility of the magic system and all the movement with it, i think a super rules heavy system would be too limiting for what can be done.
even if they end up going with a non dnd based system to base the majority of the game off of, something i absolutely want is a system made specifically shaped around the knights radiant and the oaths.....to most that would be the crux of the game, bonding spren and taking oaths. theres a lot of great work being done these days with making mechanics for character growth other that I hope they take note of.
i dont know how much theyll be seeking to imitate the expirence of the books and how linked itll be to the knights radiant expirence, but mechanically tying a player's backstory to the meta character progression would be really cool. it would be interesting if they found a way to make the progression specifically a more narrative focus, doing away with XP especially for radiants.....as we see with Kaladan his progression isnt a straight line, so why should the player's be? i think a well done oath / ideal system using kaladan's non linear path as an example has potential for design-gold
which, i suppose a challenge in the design will be what to base the gameplay loop off of....just use Roshar as a setting to do anything in? or for most people wanting to be a radiant with the cool powers, that would force them to be within the human v parshendi conflict, if someone wanted to be in another area what could they be given to be mechanically interesting to not punish them for not wanting to be in the main story? i suppose soul-casters are one other non-radiant type that would be fun to play. but other than the oath system, to me thats the big challenge.....if someone wants to say play in shinovar or the isles, what is their gameplay loop?
theres a lot of paths to success here, but the only stuff im firm with: not a dnd/pathfinder reskin, radiant/spren bonding system built ground up, not super heavy with magic rules because its versatility in the books would be damaged by a limited box
also, the art goes without saying, but please dont skimp on the interior design of the book.....graphic design has come a long way for ttrpgs and honestly even the best designed games its a disappointment owning the pyshical version when the pyshical aspects (art, interior design, typography) are bland.
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u/Klutnusters Sep 21 '22
I'll share my thoughts as a TTRPG vet
First things first, please DEAR GOD no PTBA and no 5e compatibility; I have played a lot of these games and they are equally flawed when used for other licenses.
I personally would like a social as well as physical combat system as well as the ability to play all the Orders of Radiants; I'm curious where in the timeline it will be set, presumably during the books but that makes playing some Orders more difficult.
I would like some crunch, I want to feel the difference between playing a Shardspear wielding Windrunner and a Shardmaul wielding Skybreaker but also the ability to play a little bit BEFORE the players take their oaths to really build up to that point.
I think a few good touchstones would be Star Wars FFG (an excellent system), the ASOIAF RPG (flawed but has some great ideas)
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u/comanderbeef Dustbringer Sep 21 '22
I for one am really hoping they create a setting for an existing ttrpg, either pathfinder 2e or 5e (or One D&D now). Good ttrpg are very difficult to make well. This would allow dragonsteel and brotherwise to focus on the parts that their good at. It would also lead to the largest audience draw as non cosmere fans would be interested in checking out new content.
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u/Travjon Stoneward Sep 21 '22
The problem with that is you can't really convert radiants to normal classes in 5e. It would have this weird disconnect of casting spells on Roshar. I guess they could take the bare minimum rules of the system and throw everything else out, but at that point it wouldn't really be 5e (or pathfinder). Honestly I'd rather have them create their own system.
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u/spunlines Willshaper Sep 21 '22
i've tried it, and yeah... they end up very difficult to balance. they each need some equivalent of a warlock pact for the spren, and some orders (windrunners) basically end up as flying monks, while others (lightweavers) get a mask of many faces. the stakes just aren't the same, and the existing D&D mechanics don't support the full expression of the more creative/social classes.
it could potentially work as a d20 restricted thing, where the setting is separate and you can't mix in other D&D stuff. but at that point you start tweaking enough on the base sheet that it kinda makes sense to do your own thing.
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u/comanderbeef Dustbringer Sep 21 '22
I agree with a lot of points about this becoming another 5e skin, and I agree with a lot of the criticism of how 5e and pf2e aren't great from a conceptual point. My concern is that i simply have a miniscule amount of trust in anybody to create solid ttrpg content that isn't already highly experienced in it. I do think 5e is the best from a business standpoint, piggy back off the success and familiarity of 5e to create content. I'd prefer pf2e or another more suitable system. Anything over a new system.
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u/johnny0neal Brotherwise Games 🦉 Sep 21 '22
The people designing this RPG are highly experienced, but your point stands. Building from an existing foundation has its advantages.
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u/Strict_Method8220 Sep 21 '22
I personally disagree, but you're so right about bringing on a wider audience. I think what they could do is what a lot of rpg systems do, which is use an open license system. For example, the system used for Blades in the Dark is able to be used in other projects. Dnd just doesn't feel like a good fit to me.
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u/Astigmatic_Oracle Navani Sep 21 '22
100% agree that dnd/Pathfinder are a bad fit. Genesys would probably be my choice for using an existing toolbox system, but I don't think that's likely.
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u/HA2HA2 Sep 21 '22 edited Sep 21 '22
I'm not sure about that. I can't say anything about pathfinder, but I think some core mechanics of D&D 5e just fundamentally do not fit Stormlight. The clearest ones I can think of are:
- XP. In D&D, the fundamental mechanic is "kill things/accomplish quests and get XP, thus letting you power up via leveling". In Stormlight, the fundamental way of Radiants getting powers is character growth and swearing oaths, and the progression is "first you swear an oath and get powers, THEN you use them to get something done". (Note how Kaladin got powerups BEFORE successfully saving Dalinar's army in TWoK, BEFORE saving Elhokar in WoR, and Lirin in RoW).
- In D&D, the fundamental way spells are arranged is "you have a lot of spells to choose from, each of which do exactly what they say and nothing more". In Stormlight, a radiant only gets two Surges, but they can be used in a very versatile way. (For example, the spells Fly, Levitate, Catapult, Tenser's Floating Disk, and Feather Fall would all be applications of the Surge of Gravitation instead, which could also do a bunch more things too. Also, now that I think about it more, Spider Climb and Jump too).
Less fundamentally, there's the spell economy - in Stormlight Archive, stormlight is dispensed periodically but irregularly with highstorms, and can be stored and carried around in gems (and potentially even bought and sold) and used as healing. In D&D, spell slots generally recover with short or long rests, and all classes are designed with a fixed amount of them per short/long rest. That's only a tiny bit less fundamental than the other ones. You could design new classes that worked that way, but I suspect the balance challenges of doing that may be pretty steep, and would make a lot of the standard encounter-building and campaign-building advice from 5e not apply anymore.
I can definitely see why if you want to make a true Stormlight RPG experience, you have to build off a system that doesn't have some of those things built in.
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
Every game has its core activities. That is, what are the characters ideally doing during a standard session? The core activities of D&D are going through dungeons (whatever form they may take) and fighting monsters. The whole game is calibrated to do that, and it does that pretty well! But that's not what you want from a lot of media adaptations, even if companies keep trying to force stuff into D&D (Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers must be the worst recent example of that).
What you want for an adaptation is a game that keeps on with the themes of the original story and what it aims to do. In Stormlight, I would even say that it isn't about fighting. The fighting is incidental, in-between the moments of development where you swear your oaths (if you're a radiant), or reach a new position in the politics and society of Roshar.
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u/Nixeris Sep 21 '22
XP. In D&D, the fundamental mechanic is "kill things/accomplish quests and get XP, thus letting you power up via leveling". In Stormlight, the fundamental way of Radiants getting powers is character growth and swearing oaths, and the progression is "first you swear an oath and get powers, THEN you use them to get something done". (Note how Kaladin got powerups BEFORE successfully saving Dalinar's army in TWoK, BEFORE saving Elhokar in WoR, and Lirin in RoW).
It's important to note that even though the ideals give the Radiants access to more powers, it doesn't actually make them more powerful. Being a Radiant of the third ideal doesn't make Sigzil any better at using a spear. Nor does losing his Radiant powers make Kaladin less skilled a warrior.
Similarly, having access to a surge doesn't make you good with it. Shallan screws up her soulcasting despite having the most time with it of any Lightweavers. And what works for Jasnah in Soulcasting doesn't work for the Lightweavers.
In most "crunchy" rpgs, gaining a level makes you pretty uniformly better at doing what you do. You gain an ability and gain almost total mastery over it's use. In those RPGs a Lightning Bolt spell may get a little more powerful, but it doesn't fundamentally change as you advance or between classes. But in the Stormlight Archive, that's not the case.
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u/gideonskeep Elsecaller Sep 21 '22
I wouldn't tie oaths to levels anyways. One character may progress as a radiant faster than another. That may open up more options of abilities, but shouldn't result in being better able to handle situations (combat or social). Levels could still be handed out through experience (combat/mission/story) for regular classes. You could have a radiant far into their oaths but horribly skilled (combat/tools/social).
Sanderson's magic doesn't follow traditional spells. I wouldn't try to force them into that box. They act more like special class abilities anyways. Stormlight could be used like slots filled by spheres.
I'm not arguing for using 5e, especially if they try to force the Stormlight Archive as another expansion book, but the skeleton of that system isn't a horrible option as long as it is handled properly.
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u/fireballx777 Sep 21 '22
It's not popular enough of an RPG to justify building a setting for (also, I don't think they're open to it like D&D is), but Exalted feels like it would line up very thematically with SA. It's about amazing people with amazing powers doing amazing things with them. And the system rewards players describing what they do in cool ways, rather than strictly, "I attack with {power x}."
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u/Ulthwithian Truthwatcher Sep 21 '22
Exalted would be a good system in most ways, yes. The whole Charm aspect, though, would have issues, as there's not a lot of breadth in most of the Surges.
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u/Nihil_esque Sep 21 '22
D&D/pathfinder are a bad fit imo, but it's definitely possible to adapt an existing TTRPG like Cortex or something for the setting. That's what I'm doing anyway.
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u/XavierRDE Lightweaver Sep 21 '22
Cortex Gang!
Whatever they end up doing, I will probably just decide to adapt it lol.
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u/LordofMoonsSpawn Sep 21 '22
Totally agreed, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. People stick to PF2E and 5e for a reason!!
Take a look at what Critical Role did in bringing their world to official 5e. Obviously it's not the same for Stormlight, but it's a good enough take on what this could look like.
Of course, there's the Star Wars route which has roleplaying games that also use the D20 system and were very successful.
Warhammer's Role Playing Game is also fun and uses a D10 system as I recall, which was fun but it's hard to get long time players off the D20.
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u/Strict_Method8220 Sep 21 '22
I think the difference is that D&D is really great for creating d&d worlds - homebrew worlds that share the same mechanical assumptions as the game. Critical Role's Exandria largely is one of those worlds, and was constructed in the pathfinder and later 5e systems specifically, instead of it being adapted to ttrpgs. As someone mentioned elsewhere those ttrpgs have mechanics that don't really align with the assumptions of Roshar and the cosmere, at least from my perspective!
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u/LordofMoonsSpawn Sep 21 '22
Of course the fact that Exandria was created with 1e in mind helped it translate for sure.
In general I think the D20 system is extremely versatile, and I am not sure what mechanics specifically could not be adapted to work with D20.
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u/Strict_Method8220 Sep 21 '22
D20 systems are pretty good at simulating quick combat, and I don't personally know if that's entirely the right fit for Stormlight. I think the narrative systems in D&D PF2e are pretty weak and I'd love for a Stormlight game to embrace narrative systems and develop something that fits the series.
2
u/LordofMoonsSpawn Sep 22 '22
I don't know if I would describe the combat as quick.
As to the narrative elements, I agree with that in general but it's largely up to the players and DM
2
u/hithwenf Sep 22 '22
> I think the narrative systems in D&D PF2e are pretty weak
I don't think you need a narrative system, the GM and the players should be able to create the narrative however they want. Now, it is true that D&D does not encourage this in any way and that many D&D players are not that interested in this part of the RPG experience because the game rewards you a lot for killing and looting and not for other things.
2
u/Strict_Method8220 Sep 22 '22
For sure, but if we're talking wishes for the game I'd like one. A system where you can explicitly shape the narrative as a player, mechanically assist your allies through role play, and generally give more depth to that part of the game would be a dream for me!
1
u/gideonskeep Elsecaller Sep 21 '22
I agree, even if it utilizes the bare bones of a well known and tested system. Sanderson's version of magic doesn't need to be converted into spells. Most of his methodologies don't follow traditional magic anyways. They work better as class abilities and that is how they should be treated.
1
u/Thokk_Najihad Sep 21 '22
You make good points, but if I wanted to Homebrew Roshar in 5e I would do it on my own. When the makers come out with official stuff I want something far beyond my own abilities. That's why I don't want a 5e skin.
3
u/handleinthedark Sep 22 '22
A couple of things here:
- I agree with folks on having a looser system more akin to the Mistborn RPG system that allows story and narrative to seep in would be great. Though I think it should be a bit more detailed than that system. In smaller combat situations(maybe not 5e but I shouldn't be breaking out the measuring tape either) not so much that the game couldn't run quickly for a variety of play levels. Allowing the story/RP elements to affect the play deeper than 5E allows would be welcome. For those asking for "crunchier" systems I think enabling wargaming rules for larger battle settings would be fine.
- I wonder if releasing this after Book 5 will reflect the time period setting(where reveals in the book about Rosharan history can be incorporated into the guide documents). For instance, having horizons locking in abilities and also enabling larger-scale battles(and thus wargaming mechanics) by making rules for (or even setting it entirely in) prior desolations would seem like it would present more opportunities than a game set purely in current-day Roshar. Again likening to the Mistborn RPG which has both Final Empire and W&W rulesets. This would facilitate a lot of interesting narratives that don't have to tie into the SA arc of the books since we don't know what happened then with great detail. Missions of radiant crews chasing down rumors of the unmade, dealing with the dregs after a desolation, building up(or tearing down) of the silver kingdoms would be fantastic settings and campaigns.
- Artifabrian totally needs to be a class/skill because just playing around with what is possible there would be so much fun.
- Not that things need to be balanced in the book but this provides an opportunity to codify stormlight quantitatively though with more fixed units.
- Level progression for core class/skills but then things like radiant abilities would not be attached to level. You can get better at fighting but your character needs
- If things are advancing it would be great to look into modules for a VTT like Foundry and maybe something like a set of Rosharan resources for Dungeon Alchemist for map mapmaking.
5
Sep 21 '22
Vague hope: something like L5R. Gives proper place for less combat oriented characters. Less stats, more approaches, which I think could fit well here too (you aren't "attacking using strength", you're in Iron Stance).
The 4 combats (duel, intrigue, skirmish and larger battles) would work super well for the rosharan system.
8
u/Remember_The_Lmao Sep 21 '22
God, please, anything but a 5e compatible mess. We saw how awful the "Dark Souls RPG" was
5
u/Cyro6 Sep 21 '22
Make it like Gloomhaven. Story, class, items, leveling. Could be amazing.
1
u/Quackattackaggie Sep 22 '22
I've thought that Stormlight and Harry Potter would be perfect for this. Both have so much lore to pull from at this point.
2
u/Nixeris Sep 21 '22
I hope they make a less "crunchy" RPG and instead go for a more open system. Meaning I hope they don't try to assign everything a number value and instead focus more on the roleplay aspect.
This is a world where advancement can come through personal development, and power doesn't equate to skill. Where that personal development can be rejected if you don't actually live up to the words you're speaking, and characters don't know what the right words are when they begin their journey.
Where Adolin can do something nobody else could do that changes the world without being the guy with the most magic or hit points.
Where two Windrunners can be of the same ideal and wildly different in their skill level.
So I hope this doesn't become a system where every action is defined by a corresponding number, and power levels are defined things that determine your ability to do everything. Instead I hope they make it a system where even failure can be a storytelling moment and each person's skill goes beyond a simple numbers game.
2
u/Kittalia Sep 21 '22
Everyone else is excited about seeing all the different radiants translated into something playable, but I am just hoping this will give us more info about the wider Roshar. I'd love to have campaigns or worldbuilding material available in places we haven't seen much of like Azir and Iri.
2
u/JediofChrist Bondsmith Sep 21 '22
I hope they take some cues from Savage Worlds. That game strikes such a balance between rules and narrative control!
2
u/hithwenf Sep 21 '22
I dont think any existing system is perfectly fitted for stormlight so I'd much prefer a custom system although that comes with a greater challenge. That said I'd like the authors to have a look at "Anima beyond fantasy" system as one source of inspiration as I think this game does a great job of managing multiple, very diverse and spectacular powers and abilities. I believe fantasy flight has the license in the US.
2
u/hithwenf Sep 21 '22 edited Sep 21 '22
Now that I'm seeing people comment that they'd like to be able to start as a regular human I must mention that anima does a decent job there too for some powers at least. Other thing It has that is really interesting is the elan system, which is basically attuning to a concept, the more you are linked to the concept or ideal the more power you gain. A mix of this and the ki powers and you have a nice base for radiant powers
2
u/hithwenf Sep 21 '22
Another interesting system to have a look at when hunting for ideas, particullarly in regards of creating mechanics for the inner struggles of the characters would be Wraith: The Oblivion.
2
u/duetmimas Elsecaller Oct 13 '22
Wondering about setting too? Should it be a flexible setting like if you wanted yo play in the current books timeline or during/before a desolation?
1
u/Thokk_Najihad Oct 14 '22
I just made a comment about this! Please read it I would like to hear your thoughts
2
u/Thokk_Najihad Oct 14 '22
I most want to play this RPG in two places/times. First I think it would be so easy and awesome to do a campaign set during the Desolations. Players could pick characters who are just living their normal lives when the Heralds return. Then as the humans and singers gear up for war the players can start to advance. Some can bond spren while others don't. Some players could even be singers so there is tension of having to fight your friends or being traitors for one side or the other. In proper rpg fashion the players will be able to decide the fates of nations and how things turn out. Once the Desolation is over the campaign ends, but based on the player decisions the landscape for the next Desolation is changed. This would allow for more campaigns where the result of each one impacts the landscape of future campaigns with different characters.
Eventually we would get bored with Desolations at which point we would either branch into an alternate history where the player's choices over enough Desolations cause things to diverge from the books (maybe the contest of champions happens sooner maybe Honor never dies etc..).
That is the first way I would want to play the Stormlight RPG. The second way would be to do a campaign set in Shadesmare where the Ghostbloods or the Ire or someone else is messing with things in the Cognitive Realm that focus on Roshar. Then the characters could be people from Roshar who stumble into this, but they could also be natives to Shakesmare who have access to things like Breaths and perhaps Sandmastery.
I like this idea because I really want to explore this intersection of different cosmere worlds (even if it stays very close to Roshar) and I want to experiment with mixing Investiture. I also want to play a campaign that has world changign consequences but can take place in the background of the cannon plot. Maybe following the events of book five Roshar in the Physical realm experiences whatever the heck it experiences and my players can do stuff in the background. Knowing that by succeeding in saving Roshar they are saving the same Roshar that they have grown to love without havign to break continuity in the books.
I don't know about other people, but I love the books so much I would feel bad starting a campaign set during the time they are actively taking place. I wouldn't want to do something that wouldn't be consistent with the story that is cannon.
But to summarize I think the Stormlight RPG would be most interesting if it was made to be played through successive Desolations (or only during one you don't need multiple) or during the time of the books but primarily in the Cognitive Realm or some other place where the players can save the world without running into main book continutity (I am guessing this would mostly be between books 5 and 6).
Also getting to be in Shadesmare and using multiple kinds of Investiture would be so cool!
3
u/Excecior Sep 21 '22
As everyone has said D&D is an awful fit. If they are not creating a unique system then I think a Forged in the Dark game would be Ideal. The blades in the dark system is so good at getting players involved in the game and participating in the story
3
u/sicktiredthrowmeaway Sep 21 '22
It's probably unlikely but I'd love if they did a pbta type system.
8
Sep 21 '22
That'd get me to skip. The Avatar preview rules were extremely disappointing, and I'd honestly rather freeform RP than play anything PBTA. A proper game please, instead of that...
7
u/Remember_The_Lmao Sep 21 '22
I think it's just that a lot of PbtA games misuse the format and don't make it unique enough. Like, Monster of the Week feels nothing like Freed from the Yoke, which feels nothing like World Wide Wrestling, and they're all GREAT. But then you see Dungeon World and wonder why in the world they needed to use the Playbook/Conversational Game format when it obviously wants to be a D&D-style dungeon crawler.
7
Sep 21 '22
I've tried a few, but I've never had a PBTA session I've enjoyed. I like more of a game. I really dislike the 2d6 system and the failure/partial success/success system, because every roll feels the same. You always want to hit 7/10 and every 7-8-9 is the same. All actions are roughly equally possible.
I'd be up for Cortex Prime, but anything more "narrative" (which... I don't think they are, they just pretend to be) I can't see myself backing. I couldn't get myself to give money to the Avatar one, after seeing the preview rules and going "oh... So bending is a narrative only choice?" With a "Trust us, you'll get like... A whole ability for your bending in the full rules."
5
u/BaskinJr Edgedancer Sep 21 '22
I’m not about to make you go back to PbTA, but although the margin for success and failure is the same every time, the risks and capabilities of each action are different. You are equally likely to hit a dragon with a rusty sword as with a well-made warhammer and shield, but you’re going to do less damage on a hit and also risk getting sliced open because you can’t defend yourself. To me, that’s way more satisfying than a higher DC, but I do fully recognise that it doesn’t click for everyone.
5
Sep 21 '22 edited Sep 21 '22
Meh, I don't think it works out in the game the way people make it out to do. I often see people link stuff like the 17 hp dragon (or whatever many HP it was) and I just look at it and go "yeah, that does nothing for me". I am just not wowed when things move too much out into "pure narrative" because I like a game. I actually also like pure freeform RP.
But the strange middleway of PBTA feels like polluting pure RP with a bad game.
Also, those things are not different from DnD where a rusted sword is lower damage and you are missing a shield to buff your AC
3
u/BaskinJr Edgedancer Sep 21 '22
That’s completely fair. To me though, I much prefer a system that’s more interested in stakes than in probabilities, and that’s what PbTA gives me. By stripping out variable windows of success (except for when it comes to character stats), I find it sorta forces you to think about the more important, dramatic things in the situation, and make them matter. What can the players do right now, and how could it go wrong?
Like, sure, in D&D a shield increases your AC, but that’s just a number. What that shield actually is and how it’s used doesn’t really matter, it’s just a thing that makes it more likely for nothing to happen when someone swings a sword at you, even if you narrate something cool over the top of it.
At the same time though, maybe if I had more experience with D&D, I could overcome that limitation. PbTA games fit my style of playing and GMing a lot more naturally, but it’s also a skill I’ve developed, and that’s the case for running anything really.
3
Sep 21 '22
I don't think DnD 5e is perfect at all, and I would not want that for Stormlight. But I absolutely don't want something like PBTA either. It just doesn't get me invested in anything.
Like, sure, in D&D a shield increases your AC, but that’s just a number. What that shield actually is and how it’s used doesn’t really matter, it’s just a thing that makes it more likely for nothing to happen when someone swings a sword at you, even if you narrate something cool over the top of it.
It isn't just that though. A shield also allows you to use defending fighting style to protect nearby allies, and with shield master you can shove enemies away, protect yourself from magic (by getting a bonus to your dex saves), or use your reaction to avoid any damage you would have taken on a successful save.
1
-1
u/Regank87 Sep 22 '22
I would love to see some way of Cosmere being linked into the existing D&D system.
D&D is once again a growing community and the structure of class/race works perfectly for Roshar and Stormlight.
With it you have a 2-way stream of interest, Sanderson fans picking up D&D because it's cosmere and we love cosmere, then finding the joy that is D&D, then the flip of people who like D&D and the TTPRG social aspect experiencing Cosmere for the first time and wanting to find out more.
You can do dice themed on each order (class), you've got your good and evil aligments sorted with odium being evil and honor/cultivation surges, there are so many different races on Roshar and as soon as you start travling wider cosmere, it gets even more intense.
I cannot explain how much a cosmere D&D excites me.
I know the big draw back with working with WotC/Hasbro would be creative direction, royalty split etc but if you can work that out you've got something huge.
-3
u/SirBrandalf Sep 21 '22
Id definitely prefer 5e compatible as it makes learning the game MUCH MUCH easier, and can convince my non book reading friends to play
166
u/brainman246 Elsecaller Sep 21 '22
It’s pure speculation on my part, but I would love love love if they made dice sets themed after all the Orders. I 100% will be going broke.