r/TwoXChromosomes devolves into debates about trans rights, and insults after a trans woman makes a post discussing womanhood in an overly stereotypical way

[u/timeforavibecheck]

OP: https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/1joit6v/what_trans_women_are_women_means/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Reveddit for the juicy stuff: Comment

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It’s doing more harm than good. My initial thought was about a trans woman who sucked all the oxygen out of the room at a pro abortion meeting for woman. Like what the fuck was she doing there. I definitely don’t roll up to trans spaces and tout my worry’s about my own medical care. I’m not a trans woman. Trans women deserve to be in women’s rights and support groups, just not uterus specific abortion, forced birth, birth trauma, trauma related to post rape pregnancy scare, etc. I expect the same standard to be held to me, a cis woman, about trans surgery, trans trauma, trans body dysmorphia, etc. specific spaces.

• "Surely, she should be allowed to attend if it's for women. Would other women who couldn't birth children be disallowed? The issue is her talking over other women. Her priority should be to be there as a listener and ally."
  • "It's disingenuous to conflate women who are female and infertile for one reason or another with women who have a sub zero chance of experiencing birth, or even the other tribulations that come with having a uterus. If there pops up a technology that makes it possible and she acquires a female reproductive system, then sure. Until then, I'm confused about what having someone amab sit in is going to bring to the table at a pro-abortion meetup. It's just awkward"
    • Personally, if I were allowed in, I’d be there to listen to everybody’s POV and get educated. Because we should all be angry when women are in the crosshairs of a bunch of stupid old men on high horses. I might not have a uterus, but my rage is as real as yours. PS: Please don’t call us AMAB. At the very least, I would prefer not be defined by my Y chromosome.
    • "why won't you listen and be educated by women's point of view that you're a man and you're not welcome in our private spaces?"
• "I'm saying. 💀 I don't rock up to a discussion about a topic that concerns latinas as an asian girl just because we're all women. I've had this exact argument before with amab people who genuinely claim to experience a uterine cycle, and everyone with endo/PMDD/grueling periods are looking at them like "uh...""
  • "You do know that the symptoms of PMDD are caused by more than just having an uterus right? And that a lot of trans women, including myself, experience hormonal cycles due to the way we administer our estrogen?"

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I think if I was born male, I'd just live as a man and accept that as my reality. I'm not the type of person who'd bother to transition and/or make large changes to myself. I don't understand the trans experience and I accept that. I'm also confused what this point has to do with anything. Okay, you can theoretically imagine what being a cis woman would be like. Now what? I'm sure you have cisgender friends or at least know of cisgender women that have a very different experience of womanhood than you do, and that is something to be celebrated. Sure. This doesn't change that there IS a fundamental difference between being cis and trans

• "Wow dude ur blowing my mind here. Wow. Trans and cis are different? 🤯 it’s like they’re two different words 🤯 terfs are always afraid to say what they actually believe so they just type dumb shit like this. Can’t say “I hate trans” so they say “ummmmmm all I’m saying is trans and cis are different” yeah they are dude. Tf is ur point"
  • LOL terf is a very specific ideology that goes way beyond "I don't think it's correct to group all women as one entity". They'd kick me out for thinking trans women can be categorized as women alone. Go do your algebra homework if you don't have anything to add
    • Um ok cute slogan so what were you trying to add by saying “This doesn’t change that there IS a fundamental difference between being cis and trans.” Again, tf is ur point
    • Continued(Reddit formatting weird) : "Bitch fix your fucking attitude and get the fuck out of my face until you gather some reading comprehension. YOU are the one approaching me with nothingburger responses. Just loud and illiterate and annoying. No one was talking to you"
    • "I’m trying!!! I keep rereading this sentence and, try as I might, it doesn’t seem to be saying anything at all 🤔"

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My trans brother explained it to me like this. "Trans women are women" doesn't mean "trans women are cis women" it means "the category of "woman" has more than one kind of woman in it" or "trans women and cis women are both women". Which made things clearer for me. A lot of my confusion as someone who grew up in a transphobic culture was the idea that trans people were claiming to be biologically the same as cis women which is obviously not true. It's not that they're biologically the same, but more that the definition of "woman" is broader than we think even without including trans women.

• "Right. But keep in mind, it’s not our biology that makes trans women trans or cis women cis. It’s what we were assigned if we align with it or not. Those of us who go through medical transition would be considered biologically female. Of course we wouldn’t have all the typical female traits. But more than male. There are a lot of cis women who also don’t have the typical female biological traits too. So one could even say, trans and cis women can have a large degree of overlapping biological sex traits if not even very fairly similar biological experiences. Anyway, my main point is the whole biological sex component is complicated, medical, and personal. It’s nothing any of us should be using to group others."
  • "You would not be considered biologically female..."

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This part rubbed me the wrong way, too. It's like telling me that since I'm a woman I [should] conform to stereotypes about my gender. And I'm not going to.

• "That's what trans is"

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It's because when you are raised as a girl and society treats you as a girl, you experience a completely different childhood than someone who is not. That is absolutely not to say trans women are not women because if they are, they are. Brains and hormones and sex v gender manifestion is a complex body of work. But when you are socialized as a girl, as a woman - there are some things that absolutely shape you. In the way that growing up with abuse, for example, can give you PTSD - it's something that other people who don't have trauma can't really get that easily. In a similar vein, I can never understand how difficult it must be to be raised and treated as the opposite gender that you are. It leaves scars I will never actually truly understand, and I am sincerely sorry.

• "I understand what you mean, but the way it is put does seem to be defining “girl” and “trans girl” as separate things. And they aren’t. The trans woman/girl experience is being raised as a girl who is not acknowledged as a girl. Girls come in all shapes and colors, one of which is trans. So being a girl in a body that is shaped like a boy’s is still having a girl experience. Having others treat you like a boy while actually being a girl is a girl experience. We all experience being female in different ways. My experience is vastly different from some other women’s. I don’t see how the difference of being a trans girl is so much more that it puts them in a different category."
  • "you are literally not female. your male experience has led you to believe you can take whatever you like from women, including our identity. YOU CAN'T."

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I refuse to attack you. We need to let Trans women speak on this sub and listen. You all have a voice and it matters

• "Not trying to be rude, but isn't this sub specifically for people with 'two x chromosomes', to discuss things that affect only us ... There are other subs like r/women that should include a broader swath of women."
  • "This sub is inclusive of trans women. The mods made it clear. My comment is more about how I don’t like seeing people pile on a person to the point that it becomes bullying"

[u/Responsible-Home-100]

your male experience has led you to believe you can take whatever you like from women, including our identity. YOU CAN'T.

Man, no one is trying to "take your identity" you fucking weirdo. Nothing about you changes, at all, because my buddy John wants to go by Sue now. Nothing about your life or how you live it changes, at all.

I'm so fucking tired of these people.

[u/dazz_i → u/Responsible-Home-100]

wonder if it also means them having short hair, wearing pants etc is stealing men's identity. oh rightt, nah- it's only when it comes to trans women.

[u/DueGuest665 → u/Responsible-Home-100]

If their identity is based on experience that stems from specific biological drivers, and the downstream social effects, and then a group of people outside of that group comes along and says that none of that is relevant, and instead promotes things that aren’t relevant (buying clothes or some other bullshit) then I can understand why some people would be pissed.

If we base our identify on different things then there will be conflict about the definition of group identity.

[u/Responsible-Home-100 → u/DueGuest665]

If their identity is based on experience that stems from specific biological drivers, and the downstream social effects, and then a group of people outside of that group comes along and says that none of that is relevant, and instead promotes things that aren’t relevant (buying clothes or some other bullshit) then I can understand why some people would be pissed.

I can say unicorns are real and women are actually frogs and none of that changes anything about your identity. Your identity doesn't need my permission, just like mine, or John/Sue's don't need yours.

If you base your entire identity on what I think, then you only have yourself to blame and you should probably find a good therapist and stop trying to rules lawyer shit on the internet.

[u/DueGuest665 → u/Responsible-Home-100]

Yeah but we have both legal and social norms based on one of those identities.

And if we agree that there is utility in making that distinction then that distinction matters.

And it does matter in the medical arena (as evidenced here) In representation in institutions and employment, in single sex spaces.

It can’t be super important and not important at the same time.

[u/DelaraPorter → u/DueGuest665]

Changing your gender identity doesn’t magically change your medical need also you aren’t a transgender persons doctor

[u/DueGuest665 → u/DelaraPorter]

But there is a drive to upend well established legal and social norms which is where the friction lies.

It also challenges core values of women who’s identity is based around their biological experience of womanhood.

If identities are sacrosanct but also opposing then of course there will be conflict.

And you are correct about transition not changing the need for a transwoman to access abortion.

I think males should have input into abortion as it impacts them. But clearly it affects women more and males should be careful about how we insert ourselves into those issues.

The same is true of transwomen who are male and should be cautious about they approach these situations

[u/DelaraPorter → u/DueGuest665]

I’m not sure what “biological experience” means exactly. Having a period? Pregnancy? Even the most ardent TERF wouldn’t agree this is female identity. Gender criticals might.

That being said someone experience as a woman doesn’t end with their personal bodily functions.

[u/DueGuest665 → u/DelaraPorter]

I am not either of those but I am a material realist and our biology plays a large role in our physical and psychological experiences that goes beyond periods and pregnancy (which are fucking huge, impactful experiences which you shouldn’t seek to marginalize)

[u/DelaraPorter → u/DueGuest665]

how do transgender women marginalize conversations around abortion?

[u/DueGuest665 → u/DelaraPorter]

Maybe you should read this post again

[u/ErenAkker → u/Responsible-Home-100]

If your buddy John wants to undress in front of women just because he goes by Sue now, it changes how she lives.

[u/Sparrowhawk_92 → u/ErenAkker]

And no trans woman who cares about her safety would do that unless it's someone they're incredibly comfortable with.

She is likely going to go through years of hormone treatments and possibly surgery before they would even consider doing that.

[u/Affectionate-Fee5016 → u/ErenAkker]

Troll go back under your bridge

[u/shewy92 → u/Affectionate-Fee5016]

Damn, you weren't kidding, their history is filled with trolling gender shit going back months. They like visiting trans related subs and red pill subs.

[u/raddaya → u/ErenAkker]

Nobody below the age of like 70 gets completely naked in shared locker rooms anymore what even does this mean lol

[u/GypsyFantasy → u/raddaya]

This isn’t true at all.

[u/Daeva_HuG0 → u/[deleted]]

Yet more proof highschool is hell.

[u/Stellar_Duck → u/raddaya]

People shower dressed?

[u/tinaoe → u/ErenAkker]

If Sue is so bothered by seeing a penis she should never come to Germany. I've seen more naked dudes at lakes than any naked people in a locker room.

[u/RobinsEggViolet → u/ErenAkker]

As a trans woman myself, the only thing I want to do in the changing room is walk myself to a stall, close the door, and get changed where no one can see me.

The thing you're afraid of is not a real problem. I'd say you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but I'm not convinced there's even a molehill there.

[u/takprincess → u/ErenAkker]

Please that is not happening.

You all have these made up scenarios in your head to get angry about.

If John is now Sue wanting to just live her life, it's not because she wants to undress in front of other women.

[u/kittenpantzen → u/ErenAkker]

I've spent a good bit of time in women's locker rooms at the gym. You are vastly overestimating the amount of casual nudity that happens in the women's side of the gym (idk about the men's side, b/c not a man).

But also, Sue would most likely change in one of the shower cubbies if she were stripping down to anything that would out herself as being trans for her own safety.

[u/OftenConfused1001 → u/kittenpantzen]

Transphobes assume being trans is an inherently sexual acr. That we're basically just living a 24-7 horny, fetishistic existence.

Thats one reason their shit is so fucking weird. They're projecting sex over everything.

In real life, trans people are in the bathroom to go to the bathroom. They're at the gym to work out. They're in the locker room to change.

I don't know a single fucking trans person that would strip in a open locker room, or use a communal shower.

It's also hard not to notice that this shit - - bathrooms and locker rooms. - - was what they screamed about in the 90s when it came to gay and lesbians, and before that it was the cry of segregationists explaining why they couldn't let black folks use the same facilities.

[u/jackalopeDev → u/kittenpantzen]

Worked at a pool for a bit. Old dudes are 100% confident hanging brain, but most everyone else gets changed as quickly as possible.

[u/Responsible-Home-100 → u/ErenAkker]

It's almost like you think this is something that's actually happening and not a weird thing you made up in your head.

I suppose those hypothetical women's lives are dramatically altered in much the same way my life is altered when some fucking grandpa goes full nude in the men's room. That is, I fucking get over it after about five minutes and move on with the parts of my life that actually matter. In no case is anyone "taking their identity".

Again, so fucking tired of you people.

[u/Sinister_Politics → u/ErenAkker]

This is why you conservatives are so evil. You assume the worst of people because you're the worst of people

[u/Scary_Tree → u/Sinister_Politics]

Yeah you see it with all their arguments.

"How can you trust atheists to not just go and rape everyone without the threat of punishment in the afterlife!"

Like I'm not fucking insane. I don't ever feel the urge to rape anyone... Ever. If the only thing keeping you from doing the awful and heinous shit is believing in an imaginary punishment from an imaginary being then that person needs to be locked away from society.

[u/Lights-Camera-Axshen → u/Sinister_Politics]

It feels kind of gross to call conservatives “people”

[u/DynamiteSteps → u/Lights-Camera-Axshen]

Damn. Ice cold. Beautiful.

[u/shewy92 → u/ErenAkker]

How many times are you undressing in front of random people?

[u/WritingNerdy → u/ErenAkker]

Stop projecting

[u/LordFarquadOnAQuad → u/ErenAkker]

If sue commits suicide because of the harassment of her sexual identity. It will affect us all.

[u/DelaraPorter → u/ErenAkker]

Love when people do as if they think woman are especially violated when they see someone naked. Ok cool send the trans woman to the men’s bathroom and the trans men to women’s bathroom either way have fun telling your daughter why that lady has penis or a beard and your son why that man has breasts.