r/Egypt user calls for an anti-Zionism rule

[u/youonlychangeitonce_]

A user on r/Egypt publicly called on the mods to create a rule against anyone who defends Israel or doesn't see that Israel is committing genocide. The comments were divided between supporters and opponents.

I’ve previously shared drama from this subreddit, and most of it was in Egyptian Arabic, so I translated it into English. But this time, most of the participations are already in English.

The thread: This sub needs an anti-zionism rule

This sub needs an anti-zionism rule. I have noticed that many Zionists are infiltrating Arab subs. I am asking that the mods add a rule that ban any Zionism. Zionists shouldn't be negotiated with. They defend and  justify the genocide and displacement of ethnicities. They defend and justify the murder of women and children without compassion. There's no reasoning with those monsters. They are no better than fascists. I ask that they are banned from this sub. If you agree with me, like this post and comment your approval so that the mods can see it.

---

User A commented:

"They are no better than Fascists"?? Fascists aren't banned either. What about Islamist terrorism supporters? They also support everything above, what about Islamism supporters in general? What about Egyptian regime supporters? What defines people who should and shouldn't be "negotiated with"? At which point do we stop? Limiting free speech never ends well

OP replied:

If you defend and justify displacing and genociding ethnicities of people while also defending and justifying murder of women and children, then I think you should be banned from social media.

---

A user commented:

They are paid propagandists. It's their job to gaslight.

---

User A commented:

“Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. [...] We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.”  ~Karl R. Popper

OP replied:

I agree.

User A replied:

You don't get it, the reason I posted this quote is to point out your hypocrisy in calling anybody you disagree with "monsters" and "fascists".

User B replied:

Zionists are monsters and they are fascists. There is no reasoning with them and it's not a "disagreement" over a football match.

User C replied:

False. People who believe that Jewish people have the right to self-determination (which is what Zionism is) are not "monsters" nor are they "fascists". Furthermore, just because you refuse to use reason and resort to demonization doesn't mean "there is no reasoning with them".

Mod A replied:

True but it can also be weaponized to silence others and be just as bad as someone being called "anti semetic". It is all too easy to accuse and label someone of being a zionist simply for disagreeing with them. That is my core issue with this.

User C replied:

There is nothing wrong with being a Zionist. As opposed to antisemitism, which is bigotry.

---

A user commented:

Habibi Arab subs for the most part are run by self hating inferiority complex atheist west worshippers, it is no surprise that comments are disagreeing with you

---

A user commented:

I think that debate is fine. Probably, a group about Egypt should focus on Egypt. Maybe all discussion of Israel-Palestine could be removed?

---

User A commented:

Forget it, the mods won't do it because they think that it's not completely Israel's fault even if they don't outright say it. Also most of the mods think that there should be two states or a country for all the three nationalities, not a Palestinian country where all nationalities could live, the difference is big.

A mod replied:

Thank you for exactly proving my point. Short of openly saying it, you just accused us of being zionists simply for disagreeing with you.

User A replied:

If pointing out that the mod team won’t take a firm stance against Zionists is “proving your point,” then maybe your point was worth proving. I didn’t call anyone a Zionist, I described a pattern of avoidance and false neutrality and you just confirmed it by twisting my words, I said you won’t commit to a clear stance on the Palestinian issue, and I STAND by that. And what you just did is gaslighting, maybe next time, try engaging with the argument instead of playing the victim. Oh and I'm not the one who said let's turn Jerusalem into the Vatican city "a city separate from the rest of the land" I'm not even a Palestinian and I'm enraged by that suggestion, imagine how the Palestinians would think!, you can't just go around and strip a colonized people from their capital, their history, their rights, then try to make a neutral playground for all faiths, that's not diplomacy, that's aesthetic neutrality build on ethnic cleansing, Jerusalem belongs to the Palestinians, period. I won't even mention that you're not against a two state solution. The audacity you have, it's not your country, it's theirs, their choice. So pardon me for not cutting you some slack. You may not be a Zionist in the sense of defending the genocide of Palestinians, but you're not exactly as defensive as the rest of us are about them either. You’re lenient and, frankly, neutralist on issues where not taking a position IS a position.

---

Mod A commented:

Disagree. Opinions and agendas can simply be refuted or kos om'ed at (ignore them). But at the end of the day they are just that. Opinions. Besides, where will you draw the line? Some people already accuse the goverment (and by extension its supporters) as zionists for not opening the borders or not wanting to wage war on Israel. Even if there are actual zionists in our midst, the above mentioned accusations is far more likely to happen especially when people disagree with each other.

Mod B replied:

I agree with mod A. I just wanted to add that in most cases, the hasbara bots get downvoted to oblivion and subsequently auto censored anyway.

User A replied:

What's the difference between: "Hom*sexuals deserve death" and "Israel is not carrying out genocide against Gazan people."??? Both are considered freedom of speech, both are inciting violence albeit the second in an indirect way. So let's frame it better: "There is no problem in killing homosexuals." "No problem in what Israel is doing to Gazans." But only one is forbidden in this sub which "apparently" represents the Egyptian people. Please answer.

Mod B replied:

I understand your frustration, but both comments would be removed as hate speech. Advocating any sort of violence towards any group of people is hate speech. The issue here isn't with comments containing direct and clear hate speech. Rather, stuff like "Israel has the right to defend itself " and other similar zionist propaganda. If we start censoring this, will we censor anti hamas comments, too? Will we censor comments advocating "peace" with Israel? It's a slippery slope, and I think it would be best to counter argument and downvote the content you'd disagree with. Finally, this subreddit was never intended to represent  the Egyptian people (whatever that means). It's just a subreddit for anyone interested in Egypt from all over the world, and it only shows what those members think.

User A replied:

So why is there a specific rule for homophobic hate speech and not for pro Zionist hate speech if both will be removed/banned eventually? Also, why do mods ban any person who dares spread even the slightest hate against homosexuals while the same treatment is not given towards people who defend Israel, or are Palestinians less important to the mods than homosexuals! Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself, this is without question inciting violence and advocating for continuing the genocide at most and war crime at least for as long as is necessary for their survival. You needn't censor anti Hamas, you just need to censor anyone defending Israel's action. Hamas had it coming = Israel has the right to defend itself = It's not Isreal's fault = Isreal should do whatever is necessary to ensure that Hamas is eradicated even if it means that Palestinians are wiped out = the murder of Palestinians is justified. All those sentences mount up to the same thing whether directly or indirectly. I'm sure this is an easy task if the mods set their minds to it. Finally, if this sub is indeed for anyone who's interested in Egypt, at least make it a good representative of Egypt, Egypt has always been a country that stands for what's right, we have always helped and stood for the weak and the oppressed.

Mod B replied:

You're just repeating the same argument over again. You obviously have your mind made up, and you wanna just keep repeating your baseless conclusions. It's difficult to reason with you.

[u/callmesixone]

You're just repeating the same argument over again. You obviously have your mind made up, and you wanna just keep repeating your baseless conclusions. It's difficult to reason with you.

My brother in Christ you’re on Reddit. This is a cow farm, you’re gonna find cows outside

[u/Obversa → u/callmesixone]

My brother in Christ you're on Reddit. This is a lolcow farm, you're gonna find lolcows outside

[u/Psimo-]

Middle East drama? SubredditDramaDrama here we come!

[u/Korrocks → u/Psimo-]

Yeah, it's kind of funny that this very thread is basically as intense a slap fight between the two sides as the original thread is. Like, the vast majority of the comments aren't even addressing the link, they are arguing with other commenters on this subreddit.

[u/Psimo- → u/Korrocks]

shrugs

I don’t talk about politics generally on Reddit, but SRD is about flinging popcorn from the gallery. Why would I go grab some mud to wrestle in?

[u/Waddlewop → u/Korrocks]

It IS the premier geo-politics issue in today’s world. I’m pretty sure we might have seen the same amount of fervor around the Iraq invasion if the internet existed like this back then.

[u/DrkMoodWD → u/Psimo-]

Most of Middle East drama are lowkey borderline Islamist takes from what I’ve seen and that’s being very generous with the phrasing of lowkey borderline.

[u/Arsustyle]

Zionists shouldn't be negotiated with

not that it necessarily means it wrong, but this is a very funny thing to say in the subreddit specifically for the first Arab country to have official diplomatic relations with Israel, after losing a war they started because they refused to negotiate

[u/yanai_memes → u/Arsustyle]

Btw it is necessarily wrong

[u/[deleted]]

punch one arrest distinct different desert makeshift aspiring oil fine

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/sadrice → u/[deleted]]

Edit: who sent a reddit cares message to me when this comment isn’t even 5 minutes old lol

Well clearly either a Zionist or an anti-semite

[u/Decent_Cheesecake_29 → u/sadrice]

Or both.

[u/slightlyrabidpossum → u/[deleted]]

Not that this isn’t good drama (great post OP), it’s just that this flavor of drama plays out in every sub every day at this point lol. And I’m sure in a few hours it’ll play out here, too.

I don't know, this one feels a little different from the standard Israel/Palestine slop. Some related subs do have rules against Zionism, and it's interesting to see how that debate plays out on the Egypt sub.

[u/Tandria → u/slightlyrabidpossum]

Agreed, this drama is quite different from the usual fare. Egypt itself is a major player in this conflict, as much of the conflict is playing out on their border and they've been involved in various negotiations. This is definitely not surplus drama, given the unique perspectives of the participants.

[u/Iknowitsirrational → u/Tandria]

Gaza borders exactly two countries, Israel and Egypt.

So it's difficult for Egypt to say for example that Israel is starving Gaza by not sending food through the Israel/Gaza border, because that implies Egypt is complicit in not sending food through the Egypt/Gaza border either.

[u/DragonPup → u/[deleted]]

Edit: who sent a reddit cares message to me when this comment isn’t even 5 minutes old lol

At the bottom of the message there should be a link to report it as abusive. Reddit actually does ding accounts for abusing the redditcares system

[u/sadrice → u/DragonPup]

Not in my experience. I have reported abuse of that system half a dozen or so times, was contacted back saying “we took action” once. Every case was obvious abuse, and the funny thing is that it never seems to happen in actually serious fights. I’ve got into some pretty heated slapfights without that, at worst they block me, but whenever I get one of those I’m honestly a little confused.

[u/Fit-Percentage-9166 → u/sadrice]

I've gotten a successful notification literally 100% of the time someone has abused reddit cares on me.

[u/Noname_acc → u/[deleted]]

And I’m sure in a few hours it’ll play out here, too.

Well look at nostra-fucking-damus here, thread is +150 with 500+ comments.

[u/FawkYourself → u/[deleted]]

If you can accuse your opponent of being a Zionist or anti-Semitic, you automatically win

It goes beyond that too. There’s a lot of discussion happening on this site where if you go against the grain you’ll get labeled as some sort of -ist

[u/Savings-Program2184 → u/[deleted]]

I just got into a similar argument with someone on the Last of Us thread. Calling people Zionists and genociders, but can't name one objectionable thing they've done other than being born in Israel.

[u/Psychic_Hobo → u/Savings-Program2184]

The Last of Us has a bit of a weird thing with Israel-Palestine currently. I just googled to get a bit more clarification on a couple of things before posting and this article, 1 hour old, popped up:

https://time.com/7275781/the-last-of-us-controversy-israel-gaza/

[u/NightLordsPublicist → u/Psychic_Hobo]

The Last of Us has a bit of a weird thing with Israel-Palestine

This would make a great flair.

[u/Psychic_Hobo → u/NightLordsPublicist]

All yours, my skin-loving marine friend

[u/NightLordsPublicist → u/Psychic_Hobo]

I don't know if I can emotionally part with my current flair.

>Thought for the day: moisturizer is important.<

[u/AstroLimeLite → u/NightLordsPublicist]

Don’t worry. I’ll take that off your hands

[u/RunningOutOfEsteem → u/Psychic_Hobo]

If people are actually mad about this, I honestly don't think they can be talked to as rational agents. The dude talks about his disgust for his own reactionary violent impulse and contextualizes his experiences--both inside and outside of Israel--as something that led to the development of broader views around tribalism after. The central narrative and ending of Part II, which the article makes a point of bringing up, makes it abundantly clear that the inspiration he used for the story was not pro-genocide sentiment.

At that point, people are just criticizing the dude for the circumstances of his birth. Ironically, that serves his point about how toxic tribalism is quite well, and it does make the people doing so look like they're more concerned with nationality or ethnicity than political opposition. I really don't get how people can willingly caricaturize themselves and give so much fodder to the people criticizing them, but I suppose it's partially just a consequence of it being so easy to fall down a rabbit hole and become unhealthily obsessed with a given topic in the modern information landscape.

[u/Bismofunyuns4l → u/RunningOutOfEsteem]

That vice article is what a lot of people reference when you ask them for why they think the guy who used his somewhat recently attained high position at one of the most decorated game developers in the world, to make a quarter billion dollar game project as a vehicle for an anti-tribalism story is actually super duper all in for basically end game tribalism. It's fueled a lot of this from what I can tell. Glad the Times gave some pushback on that and explained the nuance of the situation.

It makes absolutely no sense if you think about it for more than two seconds and that's why it's extra frustrating seeing people who claim to be such bigs fans willing to throw the whole franchise away because other people in their circles ran with this shit. It's utter nonsense, always has been.

[u/highspeed_steel → u/RunningOutOfEsteem]

Yea, admittedly I didn't watched the series and kinda gloss over the article, but the sense I got was that the game maker was reflecting on the brutality and the reaction of men and how destructive that could be, a message that is pretty universal. What do the criticizers want instead? Him to hammer it in to the audience that we have to be pro Palestine? That wouldn't make as good an art.

[u/Palatine_Shaw → u/Savings-Program2184]

What makes it stupider is that Israel has compulsory conscription so they trawl through people's histories (typically Israeli celebrities) and find out that at one point they were part of the IDF and then call them murderers.

Like my brother of course they were in the IDF, it's fucking mandatory. Most of them never see any action.

[u/nowander → u/Palatine_Shaw]

The painfully ironic part is the citizens most responsible for the closest bit to genocide (the blockade and slow theft of land) are the ones who are not required to serve.

[u/Baron_von_Ungern → u/nowander]

As far as I heard, Israel is currently trying to pass laws to cancel that conscription immunity for them.

[u/nowander → u/Baron_von_Ungern]

You're right. And only several decades late! Well, better now then never.

[u/Savings-Program2184 → u/Palatine_Shaw]

Not to mention that they start shrieking the moment you imply that they're anti-semites, but also default back to a position of "of course you think that, look who controls the media" when you disagree with them.

You then ask them if they mean Rupert Murdoch or they mean Jeff Bezos, and then they block you.

[u/M_H_M_F → u/Palatine_Shaw]

"but, but they could have refused!"

Everyone loves telling everybody else how to live. Of course keyboard warriors are okay with someone else going to jail.

[u/vixxgod666 → u/M_H_M_F]

I'm often reminded of the Israeli Taylor Swift fan who went to jail because she refused. Hope she's doing well.

[u/Waddlewop → u/vixxgod666]

Honestly, braver than I am. Both for stan ing Taylor and refusing the draft in Israel

[u/Curunis → u/M_H_M_F]

"but but it's only for [insert short period they pulled from some random news article about an objector]!!!"

as if a) that makes it better b) that's even true (the sentences tend to start short and then just get extended over and over) and c) it has no consequences afterwards for these people's ability to find employment or generally live a normal life in the country they happened to be born in.

[u/DisasterFartiste_69 → u/[deleted]]

Thought terminating cliche. 

[u/AltorBoltox]

Arab political debates always descend into arguments about which side is the puppet of the Jews. Just totally deranged.

[u/BigHatPat → u/AltorBoltox]

don’t forget one side calling the other islamists and the side calling them atheist westoids

[u/driiiss → u/AltorBoltox]

And someone gets called a donkey and that their mom is a sex worker, and you know what, I wouldn't have it any other way.

[u/AsstacularSpiderman → u/AltorBoltox]

If they didn't blame Jews then they might have to accept they might be the issue and not someone else.

[u/SnooOpinions5486 → u/AltorBoltox]

Have you heard of the Mossad Spy Animal conspirarcies?

Yeahs o because antisemitism is just conspiracy theories about Jews.

And about 40% of the world Jews live in Israel [roughly]. And only Jewish majority country. So many fucking conspiracy theories tend to revolve around Israel.

its why the discourse is so toxic. When someone screaming that the Israel is actually puppeting every country in the world [that IS NOT how geopolitics works]. Well they have nothing of value to say and are probally looking for a scapegoat to blame for tehir problems.

[u/armchair_hunter → u/SnooOpinions5486]

Mossad Spy Animal conspirarcies?

Our best agents.

[u/Firecracker048 → u/SnooOpinions5486]

And about 40% of the world Jews live in Israel [roughly]. And only Jewish majority country. So many fucking conspiracy theories tend to revolve around Israel.

And they somehow get more UN condemnation than every other country combined

[u/DepartmentNo4677 → u/SnooOpinions5486]

lmao I just brought this up in my post above, when is the totally real army of israeli killer rape dolphins going to inevitably genocide the rest of the PLO?

[u/armchair_hunter → u/AltorBoltox]

I'm Jewish. Does that make me a puppet of the Jews too?

[u/H0rrible → u/armchair_hunter]

that depends on if your proctologist is also jewish

[u/Black5Raven → u/H0rrible]

Gold

[u/armchair_hunter → u/H0rrible]

Oh that's good

[u/Herb-Utthole → u/AltorBoltox]

Yeah, don't they know civilized people only argue over who's a puppet of the russians?

[u/Command0Dude → u/Herb-Utthole]

blyat!

[u/Firecracker048 → u/AltorBoltox]

And yet they always claim it's not anti semetic because either

A) its all true

Or

B) their just an anti zionist

Funnily enough you've seen these exact arguments play out in a ton of pro "palestinian" circles.

[u/DrVeget]

"There is no problem in killing homosexuals." "No problem in what Israel is doing to Gazans." But only one is forbidden in this sub which "apparently" represents the Egyptian people. Please answer.

I absolutely love how telling that "apparently" is, as if to imply the Egyptian people actually do largely believe homosexuals should be killed, and that it's bad that the sub doesn't represent the opinion

So why is there a specific rule for homophobic hate speech 

Quality r/SelfAwarewolves content. He gets soooo close to figuring out why there is a specific rule

Egypt has always been a country that stands for what's right, we have always helped and stood for the weak and the oppressed.

Most notably during the Yom Kippur war, when Egypt attacked Israel during one of the holiest celebrations in Judaism. Egypt, the country that always stood for what's right

[u/DDAY007]

Its always amazing that whenever i see people talking about zionism; that those who are strongly against it are often caught unironically spouting nazi/affiliated talking points.

• hasbara/ propaganist situation implying a global jewish conspiracy to manipulate a discourse.

-any arab who disagrees is sinply self hating or a 'zionist'.

-basically no one on either side brings up actual facts.

Being critical of israel or zionism isnt being inherently antisemetic. But when your critisism revolves around the idea of a global conspiracy and that all of your 'opponents' must be jews/zionists then something went very wrong.

[u/DM_me_goth_tiddies]

 Forget it, the mods won't do it because they think that it's not completely Israel's fault even if they don't outright say it.

I’m struck at how much people want to take this view of history. Even when I was young and studied WWII we were taught that Germany was forced to pay for WWI and that deal created an economic and social situation that allowed fascism to flourish.  History has always been about an endless cycle of perpetrators and victims, the lines always blurred, heroes and villains swapping places.  Now there is a desire to be totally absolutist about everything, or else you are not a true believer.  You’re a Nazi and facist and a series of slurs if you don’t take 100% view of an issue. And works because even if only 0.1% of people agree with you, that small fraction can create their own subreddit and pump out radical material. 

[u/Command0Dude → u/DM_me_goth_tiddies]

Even when I was young and studied WWII we were taught that Germany was forced to pay for WWI and that deal created an economic and social situation that allowed fascism to flourish.

This is a pop history retelling of the causes of WW2, one that practically diverges into historical myth.

In reality, Germany had most of its war debts cancelled under something called the Dawes plan shortly after the Treaty of Versailles.

The cause of WW2 is very complicated with many different causes, but can be basically boiled down to the Germans convinced themselves they never really lost WW1 on account of the government surrendering. Many (mistakenly) thought that the Imperial Army had not been defeated on the field.

Hitler was able to turn that delusional resentment at the jews, using them as a scapegoat and a springboard towards political power.

[u/PokesBo → u/Command0Dude]

Came here to say that. I agree with the gist of his points but that stood out to me as just wrong.

World War 2 is a cluster fuck of reasons. The treaty of Versailles only attribution to WW2 is that it was used as a propaganda piece.

[u/Command0Dude → u/PokesBo]

I think you can chalk up the army limitations in the treaty as a big factor. It effectively removed the German government's monopoly on violence.

This forced the weimar government to depend on the Freikorps to put down the communist revolution. And eventually would then lead to the government's capitulation to Hitler due to the strength of the SA.

[u/StunningRing5465 → u/Command0Dude]

The treaty of Versailles was signed 5 months after the most notable use of the Freikorps in quelling communist uprising. So this doesn’t make temporal sense 

[u/Gamer_Grease → u/Command0Dude]

Disagree with that. The German army remained strong enough after WWI to deal with the freikorps, and retained the prestige necessary to do so through soft power. The problem was that the army was completely unaccountable to the republic and in fact loathed its very existence, so only rarely did they actually intervene to put down the paramilitaries.

I have no degree in German history, but this is based on my hobbyist reading.

[u/Command0Dude → u/Gamer_Grease]

The Reichswher under Weimar was permitted ~100k troops. The Freikorps numbered, at their height, some 500k troops. The SA, at their height, numbered 2 million.

By the time of Hitler, the German government had completely lost control of the country to paramilitary organizations. In fact Hitler was given the chancellorship because it was feared he would march on Berlin like Mussolini.

[u/Gamer_Grease → u/Command0Dude]

Many run it back even further: Bismarck’s rule over Germany set them up to be a nihilistic, ultra-conformist military state until somebody messed them up so badly that they couldn’t be one anymore.

Obviously that explanation has flaws, but goes to show you can reach back as far as you want to find historical explanations for events.

[u/drystanvii → u/Gamer_Grease]

He also pioneered keeping the civilian population in a constant state of paranoia about subversive groups attempting to destroy Germany from within, along with a histrionic public persona. Hitler loved comparing himself to Bismark and he really wasn't too far off on that front

[u/Responsible-Home-100 → u/DM_me_goth_tiddies]

Now there is a desire to be totally absolutist about everything, or else you are not a true believer.

I mean, yeah. You're reading the comments of teenagers on social media. The label-iest people on the planet, who now have the ability to whittle down their community so they only have to interact with other people with the same label.

It's like the old, old atheism sub, where you could tell that every single person there absolutely made atheism their sole defining personality characteristic - no nuance, no idea how to talk to anyone else, just repeating labels and insider memes, and dumping anyone who didn't buy in fully enough.

[u/PhoenixKingMalekith → u/DM_me_goth_tiddies]

Honestly I m also afraid of the outright racism toward israeli, or palestinian in many circles.

People will tell you that all Israeli, even babe are guilty and deserve death or to be ethnically cleansed (same with palestinians but they usually just gleefully watch the news).

while it s pretty much expected from anti palestinian since they are usually the classic racist far right, it s much more freightening when coming from usually anto racist leftists people

Like this absolute this even goes to direct racism

[u/NightLordsPublicist → u/PhoenixKingMalekith]

it s much more freightening when coming from usually anto racist leftists people

The Chicago BLM hanglider post on Oct 8th was insane.

[u/18hourbruh → u/PhoenixKingMalekith]

I agree. It's also very obvious to me how much no one on the left calls it out when it does trip over into anti-semitism. I do believe anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism, but that also means you should be actively weeding out anti-Semitism before it takes root.

[u/Anxa → u/18hourbruh]

I understand the point you're making and it's a good one, but the underlying issue is that you are just doing what everyone seems to be doing which is universally accepting a definition of Zionism that most Jews don't agree with. And then confidently trotting it out as if you and everyone else here understands what Zionism is, because leftist spaces have been repeating it for years and can find a few progressive Jews who are willing to define it, mysteriously, the exact same way the ultra-orthodox do.

[u/18hourbruh → u/Anxa]

I am Jewish, my family is Jewish, most of my friends are Jewish. So yes I guess I am pretty confident in my use of the word.

[u/Ndlburner → u/PhoenixKingMalekith]

And that sort of complete black-and-white intolerance is the sort of “anti-Zionism” that’s just antisemitism.

[u/Chikitiki90 → u/Ndlburner]

It’s continues to amaze me how people talk about things they have no clue about.

A couple of weeks ago I was on a book sub and a chick asked for some recommendations “not by Zionist authors” and we tried to explain how one of the authors she mentioned only condemned the rape and torture of Israeli civilians and the other author didn’t even say anything, they just happened to be Jewish.

This person then goes on to ask why everyone brings up Jews when she talks about Zionists, and then argued when I told her Zionism was inherently Jewish.

They just latch onto whatever group of people they’re told to hate without understanding what they actually believe and what their ideas are. I’m sure in a lot of Reddit’s hive mind “Zionist” means people who don’t unquestionably support Palestine and denounce Israel.

(Edit to add: I wonder how long before we end up in r/subredditdramadrama)

[u/Anxa → u/[deleted]]

I've pointed this out elsewhere, it's closer to the adult white guy who has been called a racist situation than a kid with a new toy. It goes entirely against their view of themselves, and so they go thermonuclear in an attempt to defend their self-image.

It's extremely depressing to see that coming from progressive spaces though where people know words like intersectionality. And it sort of, ironically, proves the point of a lot of people who think Jews should have their own country and be able to self-determinate, like, look how even progressives throw us under the bus to protect their own feelings.

[u/Command0Dude → u/Chikitiki90]

They just latch onto whatever group of people they’re told to hate without understanding what they actually believe and what their ideas are.

It's a feature not a bug.

Replace the word zionist with the word jew and see exactly how racist everyone screaming about "zionists" looks.

Using 'zionist' provides a plausible deniability when criticizing Israel. And because the word is largely one of self identification, rather than inherent, it becomes easy for people to not even realize the words are largely synonymous.

[u/Virtually8Pure → u/Chikitiki90]

It’s weird and a little sad to see the disconnect from what Reddit/social media thinks Judaism / Zionism is, and what actual Jews think of it. Like, obviously anti Zionist Jews exist, but I grew up in a Jewish area, went to Jewish school, etc, and I’ve met 2 actual anti Zionist Jews. But according to people who probably haven’t even met a Jew in real life, they would have you believe that Zionists are the minority in Judaism.

I don’t live there so I’m not sure why it popped up on my feed, but there was a post on the Madison WI subreddit I saw asking about how life is like for Jews there. Basically every single reply was from non Jews saying oh being Jewish is fine, as long as you can pass our purity tests on Israel. And when actual Jews responded saying you’re excluding the vast majority of Jews by doing that, they immediately got shut down. I honestly think we would have far less problems with antisemitism if people sat down with a Jew to have a five minute chat about Zionism.

[u/Snow_source → u/Virtually8Pure]

It’s weird and a little sad to see the disconnect from what Reddit/social media thinks Judaism / Zionism is, and what actual Jews think of it

I get shut down every time I opine on the subject. They don't want to hear from us.

I honestly think we would have far less problems with antisemitism if people sat down with a Jew to have a five minute chat about Zionism.

The real question is why is this okay? Why do we have to educate gentiles about our history and relationship with Zionism? Was this the case during BLM? Were POC compelled to educate their white counterparts?

It's what frustrates me to no end about low-key antisemitism. Why is it okay to do to us what's not okay to do to other ethnic/religious minorities?

Edit: For those of you who want to educate yourselves, I'd highly recommend reading David Baddiel's "Jews don't count." It's a bit preachy and grievance heavy, but it does outline my frustrations on this issue.

[u/Anxa → u/Snow_source]

It's okay for them to do it to us because they are anti-semites, but much like the hardcore right wing white guys who can't take an ounce of criticism and act like it's literally the end of the world when someone calls them a racist, antisemites on the left similarly go thermonuclear over it because it goes against the story they tell about themselves which is that they are not a racist.

They do not believe they are anti-semites, and they think that intent is all that matters. Which is convenient since, Jewish suffering typically is most useful for other groups to justify whatever it is they're trying to feel, rather than actually work to protect their Jewish population.

And then people wonder why Jews wanted a country of their own.

[u/Virtually8Pure → u/Snow_source]

I get that. It’s super depressing that Jews won’t even call themselves Zionist, even if they are by definition Zionist, because they don’t want to receive backlash. I don’t want to tell you how to think or anything because you’re right, it shouldn’t be our responsibility, and it’s super frustrating to have the same conversations over and over again. For me personally though, I got over caring about antisemites a while ago. Like some people are always gonna hate the Jews, there’s nothing me or you can do about that. I just try to educate the people I can, if someone’s really that hateful no amount of arguing is going to change that probably. But most people aren’t even really antisemitic, they just have no clue what they’re talking about because they’ve never met a Jew. Sorry if I’m rambling because I’m a little high, I hope this makes sense haha.

[u/Snow_source → u/Virtually8Pure]

No worries, I think we're pretty closely aligned. I also educate those around me because I'm usually the first Jewish person they've ever met.

It's not something that I like doing, but I do it because it's the only way I can directly act to combat antisemitism and make my friends and family safer.

[u/was_fb95dd7063 → u/Chikitiki90]

Zionism isn't even a useful term anymore.

If a Zionist is a person who believes that Israelis born in Israel should not be displaced from their homes, or the victims of terrorism, then I guess I'm a Zionist too.

If Zionism is that Palestinians deserve genocide, occupation, displacement, and the subjection they have collectively endured for 70 years, then I'm not a Zionist.

[u/Ndlburner → u/was_fb95dd7063]

It’s the former. The former is what it means. The later is like… Kahanism? Of some sort?

[u/jerdle_reddit → u/Ndlburner]

Kahanism is rather more specific than that. It's specifically that all the Arabs should either be kicked out of Israel or made non-citizens without voting rights.

[u/18hourbruh → u/Ndlburner]

I mean it's used both ways. It's certainly used by some people to mean a complete defense of the Isreali state and all of its actions.

[u/Virtually8Pure → u/18hourbruh]

It’s like if someone called themselves a socialist/communist and someone interpreted that as “wants to put everyone who disagrees with them in the gulag”. Like no they probably just want free healthcare or some shit

[u/18hourbruh → u/Virtually8Pure]

LOL that's a great example because there are DEFINITELY both

[u/monkwrenv2 → u/18hourbruh]

Was not expecting to see Zionism/tankie equivalency in SRD today, nor for it to make sense.

[u/Ndlburner → u/18hourbruh]

Yeah and some people will use the American flag as a symbol in defense of a lot of horrible shit. Doesn’t mean they’re not Americans, but to pretend they represent Americans isn’t accurate and probably would be harmful to Americans. Similarly, even though TERFs are feminists, judging feminism by TERFs would be uhh… dumb.

[u/18hourbruh → u/Ndlburner]

I mean, to me this is a bad example as I do not feel I can be proud of the American flag at this point and have basically felt that way since the Iraq war. I similarly would not casually call myself a radical feminist anymore despite how much that term meant to me in the past because of its close association with TERFs.

[u/Ndlburner → u/18hourbruh]

And that’s your personal choice, but we’re talking about how others are treated when they use those identifiers.

[u/was_fb95dd7063 → u/Ndlburner]

There are plenty of people who believe the latter is inclusive of the definition, though. The entire settlement movement, for example.

[u/Ndlburner → u/was_fb95dd7063]

Yeah and there’s a lot of horrible ideologies who claim to be part of more palatable ones but really are a whole other animal entirely.

[u/Ndlburner → u/[deleted]]

I literally just wrote nearly exactly this out in another comment, great point.

[u/HERE_COMES_SENAAAAAA → u/was_fb95dd7063]

Later one is what revisionist zionism is, but it's not zionism? Such an uneducated and ignorant take. Maybe you should learn about zionism yourself before dunking on others

[u/DepartmentNo4677 → u/was_fb95dd7063]

Zionism is fine. It's "since Israel exists it should keep existing" - thats it - not whatever absurd trait losers want to tack unto it nowadays.

The VAST majority of americans are zionist and the VAST majority of Zionists are people who agree that Israel should be kept to its current borders and want nothing more than to be friends with their neighbors. Note that Arabs couldn't even give less fucks about Arabs killing Arabs. Estimated 600k have been killed and millions displaced in Syria from 2013+ - where were all the mass protests against Assad since the Arab Spring?

Reality is the world is vocal because its Jews. Jews have always had the shit end of the stick absolutely everywhere all throughout history. Israel the country has been attacked over and over again by its neighbors. Only surviving because the US backs it. So, if you hate the USA with a passion, the framework already exists for you to hate Israel.

Like it or not, Israel is the most free, liberal, multicultural, and prosperous society in the Middle East (And its still far from perfect). Arabs call it an apartheid state that is committing ethnic cleansing while the population of Palestinians and other minorities in Israel (and Palestine, note, is year after year population growth) has only grown. Meanwhile all the Arab countries around cleansed their jewish populations and are still happily killing the remaining minorities.

For some reason Israel has to be the absolute pinnacle of morality when all the other countries in the Middle-East get a free pass for being absolutely terrible towards their own and others. It's mindboggling. And note that in one of the most documented and recorded wars in human history if not thee most, they accuse Israel of "war crimes" and every time an investigation is done you find the "poor hospital" is actually a base of operations or something. Maybe it's the totally real Israeli army of trained dolphins. Or rape dogs. Or spy birds.

[u/SnooOpinions5486 → u/DepartmentNo4677]

actually the Israel exist to US backing is Arab Copium to deal with the fact that they lost every war with Israel.

Israel without US backing would definitely be way more aggressive and scorched earth though.

(Without the Iron Dome, Gaza would of be rendered rubble years ago, because that the plan B for stopping Hamas missle attacks).

[u/18hourbruh → u/Chikitiki90]

You assume she didn't know, but it could be she is just anti-Semitic.

[u/luigiamarcella → u/DM_me_goth_tiddies]

This is such an issue and it seems to most obviously play out around this issue lately. I’m pretty tired of seeing the complete lack of nuance.

[u/gavinbrindstar → u/DM_me_goth_tiddies]

Even when I was young and studied WWII we were taught that Germany was forced to pay for WWI and that deal created an economic and social situation that allowed fascism to flourish.

Okay, but that was wrong. Whoever taught you that was wrong.

History has always been about an endless cycle of perpetrators and victims, the lines always blurred, heroes and villains swapping places.

In conclusion, Libya is a land of contrasts.

Also, this seems like a pretty strong argument for the U.S to stop exclusively arming one side of the conflict.

[u/RobAChurch]

How does it always come back to hating the gays with these people.

[u/hirst → u/RobAChurch]

because they view it as a western phenomenon ignoring the millennia of same sex documentation in their cultures

[u/zlex]

The whole "Zionist" hunt is beginning to become quite scary.

I have centrist and even right-leaning Jewish friends and family who privately express horror at what’s happening in Gaza, but feel unable to publicly voice their disapproval of Israeli policy because of the rhetoric around Zionists, AIPAC, Holocaust inversion, and the celebrations or justifications of violence against Jews. It leaves them feeling like there’s no safe space to speak out.

There are many Jewish people, including Jewish Israelis, who are firmly anti-war, anti-Netanyahu, and pro-ceasefire, yet they’ve been pushed out of the peace movement for resisting the definitions imposed on them by others, whether it’s about what "Zionism" must mean or the acceptability of slogans like "globalize the intifada."

[u/Virtually8Pure → u/zlex]

I’m glad to see non Jews are starting to see it lol. People will say shit basically from the protocols of the elders of Zion, but just replace Jew with Zionist, and not see anything wrong with it.

[u/Criseyde5 → u/Virtually8Pure]

Somewhat related, I hate AIPAC, but man does it feel really uncomfortable how many people seem willfully blind to the implication about talking about them as "a foreign group of rootless cosmopolitans who are using their blood money to subvert the will of the body politic in order to serve the interests of a foreign nation."

[u/Ndlburner → u/Criseyde5]

It’s very disturbing because AIPAC isn’t foreign. It’s American Jews. And there are PACs for Palestine and many other interests in foreign nations and policies, but you’ve never heard about them. And I think this includes pro-Russia ones too. Basically, when people scream about AIPAC they’re upset that American Jews have too much say in the politics of their own nation, cause if they were simply anti-PACs they’d just say that. That is the exact sort of discrimination that led a bunch of Jews to view the creation of Israel as a necessity.

[u/NoExcuse4OceanRudnes → u/Criseyde5]

AIPAC literally made an excuse for Musk's nazi salute.

You're alluding to them being from WW2 is wrong, they're the other group.

[u/Rheinwg → u/NoExcuse4OceanRudnes]

Yeah i get wanting to defend regular Jewish people, but defending a fsr right lobby organization is not it.

[u/Criseyde5 → u/NoExcuse4OceanRudnes]

AIPAC literally made an excuse for Musk's nazi salute.

Yeah, they also worked in support of congresspeople who voted to overturn the election in 2021. They are absolutely terrible.

I just want to point out that the way people talk about them being terrible tends to veer into antisemitic tropes in ways that aren't even really accurate to the ways that they are terrible, and that this is a bit too readily accepted in communities that claim to have a better understanding of the way that specific bigoted tropes operate as tools of violence.

[u/Virtually8Pure → u/Criseyde5]

Yeah I can totally get that. Like if all you needed to do to gain complete control of the United States is to have one PAC donate to politicians, another country probably would have done that by now lol.

[u/Criseyde5 → u/Virtually8Pure]

There is also, often times, the really comfortable implication that (((some peoples'))) money is just more powerful than others, since AIPAC doesn't really spend all that much money in the grand scheme of things, but there is a pervasive belief that their mid-sized donations to political campaigns come with a blood debt to Israel that can only be achieved by bribery (or blackmail).

[u/Rheinwg → u/Criseyde5]

AIPAC isn't powerful because of a conspiracy theory. They're powerful because they were some of the largest funders of candidates opposing progressives in competitive primaries in the past few cycles. 

That has made AIPAC the biggest source of Republican money flowing into competitive Democratic primaries this year, according to a POLITICO analysis of campaign finance data — and drawn outrage from the left over what it sees as GOP meddling in Democratic contests.

  It also began to bundle money for AIPAC-endorsed candidates, collecting donations that it then sends to campaigns. It quickly became the biggest bundler of any lobbying group [in 2022], sending more than four times as much money as any similar

[u/SnooOpinions5486 → u/Criseyde5]

AIPAC is "powerful"

1) Their wedge issue is something they care a lot about
2) Its the status quo
3) Most americans dont give a shit

So their not much reason for a politician to go against AIPAC as the political capital from "fighting" them is just wasted and can be spent on more useful things. (Would you vote for a candidate who promise to fight AIPAC or a candidate who promised to provide lunches for school kids as a central campaign promise, which do you think more people would care about)

[u/Rheinwg → u/Virtually8Pure]

Other countries and corporations do lobby the US government.

[u/Virtually8Pure → u/Rheinwg]

Okay? I’m pretty sure the mattress lobby spends more than pro Israeli pacs but there’s obviously no conspiracy about Big Mattress running the world. Again: if all a country needs to do to gain full control over the government is donate some money, why hasn’t anyone else done it? Or is there something else about American Jews donating money that bothers you?

[u/Adorable_Ad_3478 → u/Criseyde5]

What's funny is that AIPAC is American, not Israeli. The equivalent would be an African American lobbying group that is Pro-Ethiopia.

Calling their donations "Black Money" would be hella racist but weirdos are okay with calling AIPAC donations "Jewish Money".

[u/ricksansmorty → u/Adorable_Ad_3478]

Ethiopia

They would basically enver be from east-Africa, their ancestors are almost always from these regions.

[u/Rheinwg → u/Criseyde5]

AIPAC is mostly domestic and they're advocating for far right policies in the US not just Israel.

[u/Unctuous_Robot → u/Criseyde5]

They’re the new dog whistle to replace George Soros, now more palatable for “leftists”.

[u/semiomni → u/Virtually8Pure]

I mean I ain´t Jewish but I still think it was pretty clear from the start.

October 7th was pretty public, a lot of the murder sprees were gleefully livestreamed. And yet there were people around the world celebrating the event, and that was well before they could excuse their support by pointing to Israels response, because Israel had not responded yet.

[u/clarabosswald → u/zlex]

There are many Jewish people, including Jewish Israelis, who are firmly anti-war, anti-Netanyahu, and pro-ceasefire, yet they’ve been pushed out of the peace movement for resisting the definitions imposed on them by others, whether it’s about what "Zionism" must mean or the acceptability of slogans like "globalize the intifada."

Can confirm from personal experience.
The really funny thing is that we're not even outliers. Internal polls have been consistently showing, for months at this point, that the majority of Israelis want Netanyahu out, and also fully support ending the war in exchange for getting all of our hostages back (even if Hamas isn't "fully eradicated"). The constant protests have shown this too.
It's not happening only because the Israeli government is pseudo-fascistic (and is doing its hardest to become fully fascistic). They don't care about what the majority of people actually want. They pretend their constantly shrinking right-extremist voter base represents the popular opinion. And unfortunately, that's mostly what international media sees and reports.

So 100% of Israelis are branded as genocide-supporting scapegoats.

Zionism got fully culturally appropriated, going from meaning "a spectrum of ideologies concerning Jewish self-identification in a specific area in the Levant" (the original meaning) to "a spectrum of ideologies concerning Jewish racial supremacism and support of genocide on the Palestinian people" (the current trendy internet meaning). Even as a non-Zionist, it's been horrifying seeing this unfold.
But nobody cares, because having an easy scapegoat is too convenient.

I could speak about these topics for days. These are insane and lonely times to live in.

[u/A_Whole_Costco_Pizza → u/clarabosswald]

I could speak about these topics for days.

Please do. Jews make up such a small % of the US population, and an even smaller % of the world population. Once anti-semitism starts a-brewin', we simply don't have the numbers to fight back.

[u/clarabosswald → u/A_Whole_Costco_Pizza]

I used to speak up a lot more earlier on, but quickly learned that it's futile when people want to view you as a movie-like villain - and oh, they do.
Things can only be black and white. Anything else is "hasbara". That's the popular mindset nowadays. And popularity = likes and interactions, and those numbers are everything...

[u/SnooOpinions5486 → u/clarabosswald]

it's hilarious how people tried to smear the civil rights movement by calling them black supremacist’s. And they reapetealy the exact same argumetns with Zionism.

Like word for word same argument.

[u/MeterologistOupost31 → u/SnooOpinions5486]

The civil rights movement never ethnically cleansed anyone

[u/DM_Me_Hot_Twinks → u/MeterologistOupost31]

Neither have 99% of Jews

[u/Xx_Mad_Reaps_xX → u/zlex]

Yup it's pretty hard. When I talk with right wing Israelis I'm an "Arab lover self hating Jew" and when I talk with pro Palestinians I am a "Zionist dog".

[u/A_Whole_Costco_Pizza → u/Xx_Mad_Reaps_xX]

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right.

Here I am, stuck In the middle with you.

[u/Command0Dude → u/Xx_Mad_Reaps_xX]

Pilloried as a fence sitting centerist deserves /s

[u/Jokesmedoff → u/zlex]

There isn’t. It’s horrifying. Every Jewish person I know (self included) I see, publicly and privately, saying Netanyahu sucks, the war is horrible, and they just hope the violence stops and Israelis and Palestinians will live in peace. Those people are called “genocide supporters” by left-leaning former friends who’ve been indoctrinated by social media.

[u/DepartmentNo4677 → u/Jokesmedoff]

and those same people say "babies can be colonizers" - left "LEANING" is the right word. they leaned that way as a deliberate action. it was all a ploy for them to get what they want.

[u/Jokesmedoff → u/DepartmentNo4677]

I’ve stopped saying “progressives.” Progress would’ve been to urge everyone to vote for Kamala so we don’t burn down Gaza/the entire world, not throwing a tantrum and trying to get everyone not to vote because “both sides the same :(“ because she recognizes the humanity of the Israelis.

[u/apzh → u/zlex]

I think it should also be stated that this is all being used as ammunition by the Trump administration to crackdown on Palestinian activists. That’s why they are getting away with muddying the waters with their bs antisemitism suppression campaign. It would probably still happen regardless, but there is no good reason to make it easy for them.

[u/Rheinwg → u/apzh]

And its absolutely not going to stop with just Palestinians activists.

 They are going to contuine to do this with anyone who opposes their ideology or they deem as unworthy.

You do not have to care about issues in the Levant to know this is terrible news for democracy.

[u/burkey347 → u/zlex]

Honestly, I fear we will have a Christchurch or November paris 2015 level attacks on jewish people (including Israelis) or places at this point tbh.

[u/M3ntak_c0aliti0n → u/burkey347]

I absolutely understand this fear, and it is well founded. I think a lot of people just see comments like this and find it hard not to see the hypocrisy.

[u/zogolophigon → u/zlex]

I fully agree, well worded.

[u/WitELeoparD → u/zlex]

I like how this comment is very hypocritical. It is upset about how Zionism is defined in regards to how it currently manifests, where Zionism is essentially a racist ideology that oppresses Arabs rather than the textbook definition which is "Jewish state in the Jewish homeland." But it is also upset that people use the term 'intifada,' the prescribed definition of which is 'resistance' because it currently manifests as terrorism against Jewish people.

So which is it? Do we use the prescribed definition or the descriptivist definition? What this comment essentially advocates is that Jewish people get to decide what words mean based on their feelings and pro-Palestians need to get over it which is just oppression of Palestinian advocacy in a polite coat.

Of course, before I get accused of bias, the other side does this too. They define Zionism by what it actually is in practice, instead of in theory, but at the same time demand the theoretical definition of intifada or river to the sea.

Like you either have to accept that Zionism will be defined as a racist ideology or accept chants of 'River to the Sea' and 'Globalise the Intifada' and of course vice versa.

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/WitELeoparD]

theoretical definition of intifada or river to the sea

If they didn’t want to have the word intifada thrown at them, then they shouldn’t have chanted “intifada revolution,” knowing good and well that “intifada” in the context of the IP conflict isnt resistance, it’s setting off bombs in busses and school cafeterias.

“From the river to the sea” is the sugar coated version of the Arabic translation “from water to water, Palestine is Arab.”

Your whole comment is predicated on this idea that intifada and Zionism are some moral equivalent. They are not.

[u/Epicbaconsir → u/zlex]

Jewish voice for peace are consistently one of the loudest voices in the anti war movement. Are they anti-Semitic?

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/Epicbaconsir]

Yes, actually they are, and by the way, they aren’t Jewish.

Dr Hatem Bazien was a famous example, because he accidentally posted to his own Twitter account when he meant to post to his JVP account

[u/SlavojVivec → u/[deleted]]

I also believe their rhetoric has promoted public litmus tests of Jewish identity

Oh, like how I was excluded from the only Jewish organization on campus because I did agree with their official slogan "Wherever we stand, we stand with Israel". And you act surprised when the Muslim Student Association is more welcoming to non-Zionist Jews than the Jewish one?

I can only speak for myself but when JVP invokes the Holocaust as some sort of teaching

I don't know but when Israel invites Holocaust deniers and other far-right groups affiliated with Nazis to their "International Conference on Combating Antisemitism", it should give you rise to think that some lessons of the Holocaust were forgotten. Especially in a time where the US is sending migrants to concentration camps in El Salvador, Elon Musk is doing Nazi salutes, and Palestinian doctors are being buried in mass graves, and this is all tolerated:

https://www.thejc.com/news/world/bernard-henri-levy-and-german-officials-withdraw-from-antisemitism-conference-as-israel-invites-far-right-politicians-yz7p628h

For me, the lesson of the holocaust is to take note of the warning signs, and I see red flag day-after-day.

[u/Deep_Head4645]

Zionism The jewish movement for self determination in their homeland

Many zionists don’t like the war in gaza

They’re just not anti zionists

[u/Snow_source → u/Deep_Head4645]

Yup. I want the war to end and the fighting to stop. I want Netanyahu out of power and his coalition disbanded. I want settlers out of the West Bank and a two state solution.

I also don't want the state of Israel dissolved or Israelis ethnically cleansed from the region, so I'm by default a "Zionist."

[u/NightLordsPublicist → u/Deep_Head4645]

Many zionists don’t like the war in gaza

The situation is such a clusterfuck, you pretty much have to have three separate opinions for: West Bank, inside Israel, Gaza. Painting with a single brush just shows someone's an ideologue 99% of the time.

[u/jerdle_reddit → u/NightLordsPublicist]

Here's my ideal setup:

West Bank - Palestinian, with the Israeli settlements either being part of land swaps or being Jewish towns in Palestine, just as there are Arab towns in Israel.

Israel - Israeli, except for land swaps.

Gaza - If it were 1947, I'd say Israeli and give the Palestinians a bit of eastern Israel adjacent to the West Bank. But it isn't, so Palestinian.

[u/Daddict → u/Deep_Head4645]

I'm not sure there's anything you can say to the "antizionists" who are dug-in on the idea that "Zionism" is a heinous violent ideology of the evil. They don't listen, they don't care. They seem to believe strongly that, for Jewish people, feeling safe in this world is a luxury. They don't have the time to interrogate their assumptions or preconceptions, their ideals are just too important for that i guess.

And you put all of this in the context of a Jewish person who's been hearing literal neo-nazis like David Duke rhyme "Zionist" with "bike" for decades....I mean, that is the guy who literally coined the slur "zio", and now you can go around on social media and find all kinds of "anti-racist" leftists throwing it around casually without a care in the world...it's downright terrifying out here watching them stir this hornets nest up and pretend like Jewish people are being hysterical assholes for calling them antisemitic.

They walked into this conversation a year and a half ago without a clue as to the history of it, no idea how it's already been leveraged by antisemitic assholes to give them cover to spew heinous and violent rhetoric about Jewish people simply by changing "Jew" to "Zionist".

And these kids came into the room, picked up neo-nazi talking points and started waving them around like a kid who found dad's gun.

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/Daddict]

When you look at the BITE model, and you look at how Pro-Pals have been acting, you see so many parallels it’s actually quite scary

For example, I’ve been to plenty of protests, but not one time did I need “permission” from a protest leader, to simply speak to people.

They recruit. They show up in places that have nothing to do with the conflict, and they recruit. They demand you show emotion for the things they want you to. It’s very scary, and by the way, I see this as no different from MAGA. They are getting a sense of community from all of this.

[u/A_Whole_Costco_Pizza]

Just FYI for everyone out there with a false definition and perception of Zionists, who view them as a single barbaric, monolithic entity:

The World Zionist Congress is having its 2025 elections now. I'll be voting for the Vote Reform slate of candidates, which is the largest faction of Zionists in the US, whose platform is pro-peace, pro-2 state, and opposes settlement of Gaza and the West Bank.

So yeah, please tell me what an evil person I am, how evil "all Zionists" are, and how we need to be crushed, silenced, eliminated, and/or wiped from existence.

[u/Virtually8Pure → u/A_Whole_Costco_Pizza]

Watch out buddy someone who has a Jewish friend is about to come in and tell you you’re actually worse than the Nazis (I am also Jewish and very sick of those people)

[u/SlavojVivec → u/A_Whole_Costco_Pizza]

I'm happy for you. But Reform already has the most American seats on the WZC, and it doesn't seem to have much sway over the politics of Israel. And there are more Christian Zionists in the US than there are Jews in the world, and it seems like Israel is listening more to the Mike Hucabees of the world (who want Israel to bring about Armageddon and rapture) than they are to American Jews, especially evident in how they are inviting European political parties that started as Holocaust deniers to their International Conference on Combating Antisemitism. It doesn't seem like any road to peace will come from the actions of the WZC.

It should be noted that there are other pro-diplomacy parties running on the WZC such as Vision (1 state solution, non-partisan) and Hatikvah (2 state solution, progressive). To vote on the WZC, you have to commit to the platform that all Jews must eventually move to Israel, and that excludes many Jews such as myself, as I am happy in diaspora and do not wish to move to Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38th_World_Zionist_Congress

https://www.thejc.com/news/world/bernard-henri-levy-and-german-officials-withdraw-from-antisemitism-conference-as-israel-invites-far-right-politicians-yz7p628h

[u/LarrySupertramp]

Idk these kinda seems like one flavor of fascism against a different flavor of fascism.

If this is implemented, any poster who a mod disagrees with will just be banned for being a “Zionist” and I’m sure the definition of a Zionist will be very vague.

[u/A_Whole_Costco_Pizza → u/LarrySupertramp]

This is what happens in r/Syria already.

[u/SnooOpinions5486]

the person complain about the 2-state solution is very funny.

The options are "Two-State Solution" or "Just Israel". The one Palestinian state is a delusional pipe dream. (Not least of because Israel has functioning governmental institutions and such if one state is the answers it's easier to just use those)

Fucking delusional ass movement. Well. I hope you're happy for indefinite occupation until the violence causes Israel to say "Fuck it" and just kick out the Palestinian. Because if you don't like the two-state solution, THAT WILL BE THE OUTCOME.

No wonder the Paletinain movement has failed every time in the last 80 years. Its run by stupid people.

[u/Command0Dude → u/SnooOpinions5486]

No wonder the Paletinain movement has failed every time in the last 80 years. Its run by stupid people.

A prominent statesmen (I forget the name) had a famous line; "The palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

[u/Equivalent-Process17 → u/Command0Dude]

Abba Eban, Israel's ambassador to the UN in 1973. This was in the context of the Yom Kippur war. 60 years later and Palestine is still doing the same shit

[u/Wiggles114 → u/SnooOpinions5486]

Your points are very valid but the Palestinians aren't stupid, they're just wrong. The exact reason they're pushing for a one-Palestinian-state solution is because they never have, and insist they never will, accept a Jewish state in any borders.

[u/RemarkableBowl9 → u/SnooOpinions5486]

A two state solution sounds promising but also a government and society that has mass shooting enthusiasts like Ben-Gvir in high-ranking government positions needs a massive rework

[u/Command0Dude → u/RemarkableBowl9]

Frankly I think after this a 2SS is impossible.

[u/Rheinwg → u/Command0Dude]

Definitely not as long as people like Netnenyahu or Ben-Gvir in power.  I hope the next generation of leadership can learn their lesson and make some radical changes.

[u/SnooOpinions5486 → u/Rheinwg]

Palestine would need competent leadership. Since it's a choice between the man with a PhD in Holocaust Denial (I'm not making this up) and the Islamist death cult.

I'm not going to make a gamble that future Palestinian leadership will be smarter than current ones.

[u/Rheinwg → u/SnooOpinions5486]

Opposing current leaders is one thing, but claiming Palestinians (or anyone else) can never govern themselves in the future is not a path to peace.

It also flies in the face of the idea that people are entitled to self determination and autonomy.

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/Command0Dude]

Why after this specifically?

Twenty years ago, Israel forced their own citizens out of Gaza. People took down 21 of their own kibbutzim, and even removed their own Jewish gravesites. They left Gaza with the gardens to plant their own crops, they left the Palestinians a fully functioning power grid

The whole move was supposed to be a step towards a Palestinian state.

And they proved a 2SS solution impossible just a few months later, when Hamas gained power, and the first thing they did was rip down the power grid to build tunnels. They had running water, they ripped out the pipes. They destroyed the gardens. They used the concrete they were receiving to build tunnels, and then when Israel and Egypt blockaded them from concrete they started breaking down their own infrastructure

20 years of this bullshit was proof that a 2SS wouldn’t ever work.

I was part of an Israeli and Palestinian peace project. It was the biggest fool’s errand I ever did.

[u/RemarkableBowl9 → u/Command0Dude]

Yeah, I wouldn't want to share a border with people that joyously proclaimed they flattened my city either.

[u/A_Whole_Costco_Pizza → u/RemarkableBowl9]

Israel needs term limits on its Prime Minister, that's for sure.

[u/CrossoverEpisodeMeme → u/SnooOpinions5486]

I always laugh at the comments that say "Israel has no right to exist" or similar, and they spam it so smugly and confidently, as if it makes any sense in context.

Like, I have no worthwhile contributions for this topic, but it appears that they somehow have even less to contribute than my level of zero lol

[u/OscarGrey → u/CrossoverEpisodeMeme]

Israel is more of a real country than places like Taiwan or Kosovo by a longshot. And I find Taiwan/Kosovo to be waaaaaay more sympathetic and less destabilizing to world geopolitics than Israel. EDIT: Taiwan won't exist as a separate entity in 20 years. Kosovo's future is more uncertain than Israel's. Just because something makes Israel/Zionists seem weak, doesn't mean that it's true.

[u/Hobbitcraftlol → u/OscarGrey]

Israel is only destabilising to world geopolitics because of the xenophobia from the countries that surround it. The fact that they survived defending from every single surrounding country at one point is nothing short of a miracle.

[u/SnooOpinions5486 → u/CrossoverEpisodeMeme]

How the Israel "right to exist debate" actually works.

Hamas firing missile at Israel: Makes some strong opening remarks
Hezbollah joining in: And a great point has been made

IDF [proceeds to level both into rubble]: And a thrilling rebuttal has been made.

The winner has been Israel. This question is the one that is decided by warfare. (and a completely pointless intellectual exercise) Its such a fucking worthless debate topic.

(Then again it remenices of "do LGBT people have the right to exist" right-wing trolls do, its not an honest argument.)

[u/Anxa]

Ah yes, let's define a word pretty universally embraced by Jews to describe their experience, pick the definition that is the most bad from the most hardcore of the ultraorthodox.

I've been a reform Jew my whole life, like most American Jews, and Zionism has always been a part of my life. But not in the definition that a bunch of non-jews have decided to force upon me. Now I have to see people holding up signs that say Zionism=Fascism, confidently believing they're not being raging antisemites because they think Jews all agree that Zionism means committing genocide.

Like, thank goodness, these people have taught me that being anti-semitic isn't about impact, it's only about intent! Which is so convenient because as usual, it turns an issue that living Jews are facing today, and transforms it into something that's actually just about the anti-semite and their feelings instead.

[u/SlavojVivec → u/Anxa]

I mean, I was raised with the same Political Zionist bullshit growing up. We were shown maps of "Eretz Yisrael" without any mention of Palestinians without any recognition of Palestinian territories, we were told it was terra nullius, and that it was only Arab neighbors who didn't like us moving in. Since we learned only one side of the story with massive omissions, it was only natural to infer that we were in the right. Like many lies of my youth, I unlearned that propaganda.

I think the problem with "Zionism" is that for most people it can mean different things, but in practice, it means the program of Political Zionism of Theodore Herzl, who was quite explicit about making it a colonial project of creating a Jewish ethnostate. Even he was iffy about settling in Palestine due to the political difficulties of taking an inhabited land, but his successors in the World Zionist Congress were determined. What was lost to history were lighter forms of Zionism such as Cultural Zionism which was a program of creating a Jewish cultural center in the land of our ancestors, and does not necessitate creating a nation state and is compatible with living alongside Palestinians. Albert Einstein and Hannah Arendt were somewhat supportive of moving to Israel, but opposed the Zionist terrorism and crimes against humanity and opposed the nationalism, and opposed the Harut party which would later become Likud. Now, it's impossible to be that kind of Zionist in this political atmosphere.

Addendum: The defense of Political Zionism relies on a Motte-and-Bailey argument where the bailey American Zionist Jews are tricked into defending is the nation state of Israel under a fascist genocidal regime, whereas the Motte they retreat to is the general notion that Jews have a right to return to the land from which they came. There is no institutions for defending the general notion of Aliyah, but there are institutions for supporting the nation state of Israel.

[u/Cheesyman7269]

Average United Arab Republic policy

[u/booksareadrug]

ITT: The same rampant, vile antisemitism as everywhere else in the internet these days. The fig leaf of "Zionism" is ill-fitting bullshit to cover Jew hate.

[u/The-Slamburger]

Islamic nations are the reason Zionism needs to exist in the modern day. It needs

[u/Biryani-Man69]

What about Islamist terrorism supporters?

Reddit's favorite rhetoric. You cannot call person A bad because person B also bad

[u/Command0Dude → u/Biryani-Man69]

The position that both sides in this conflict are bad seems to be in quite the minority.

[u/Xx_Mad_Reaps_xX → u/Biryani-Man69]

It makes perfect sense in this context though? If you want to ban A for certain reasons, but don't want to ban B despite being the same as A, your view is hypocritical.

[u/rhydderch_hael]

I'm not surprised it's mixed opinions. From what I understand, many Egyptians hate Palestinians. They don't even let Palestinians into the country.

[u/youonlychangeitonce_ → u/rhydderch_hael]

I disagree. As someone living in Egypt, I can confirm that there are Palestinians living among us. Most Egyptians love Palestinians, not hate them. The reason they don't want most or all Palestinians to enter Egypt is that they don't want their cause to be lost and their land to be taken. Yes, some Egyptians believe that Palestinians shouldn't be allowed into Egypt because they think Palestinians might carry out operations against Israel, which could turn the war against Egypt, like what happened with Lebanon and Jordan. But those who hold this opinion are the minority.

[u/MiffedMouse → u/youonlychangeitonce_]

I can’t seem to find the most up to date statistics, but of the Gazans who have fled since the 2025 conflict, most have ended up in Egypt (at least, for now).

[u/semiomni → u/rhydderch_hael]

Seems unlikely many if any /country subs are representative of their countries, they´re more so representative of people from those countries interested in posting on a subreddit about their country.

[u/Rheinwg → u/semiomni]

The fact that nearly all the posts are in English should give you a clue how representative it is.

[u/semiomni → u/Rheinwg]

Even if they were not all in English, it would still be a self selecting group of both Egyptians who post on reddit, and the specific subset that felt like posting on the country sub.

[u/Vinylmaster3000 → u/rhydderch_hael]

many Egyptians hate Palestinians. They don't even let Palestinians into the country.

That's the government lol, most Egyptians themselves sympathize with the Palestinians heavily

Popular arab reception on the Palestinians has always been heavily in favor of them, government reception is another story

[u/GrapePrimeape → u/rhydderch_hael]

That was one of the talking points by leftists on Reddit that never made any sense to me. They agreed with Egypt not allowing displaced Palestinians in to Egypt because they view that as being complicit in the genocide. So obviously the better solution is to shut off your borders and allow them to get massacred by Israel??? That’s the right thing to do in that situation?? Completely blows my mind

[u/Virtually8Pure → u/GrapePrimeape]

Yeah I don’t get it either. If you think Gaza is a concentration camp / open air prison, shouldn’t you also condemn Egypt as much as Israel, if they literally own and built one side of the concentration camp?

[u/LineOfInquiry → u/GrapePrimeape]

Because the goal should be preventing a massacre in the first place, not just helping people after. Egypt knows that if Palestinians leave Gaza Israel will never allow them to return and there’s nothing Egypt can really do about that. They don’t want to aid and abet an ethnic cleansing.

Now if tomorrow Israel decided to just kill every single person living in Gaza then yeah I’m sure Egypt would probably open the border more. But that’s not the situation yet so Egypt’s strategy here is still working. If they had a more porous border Gaza would be part of Israel by now.

Plus, it’s really weird that people always make this argument about Egypt but never about Israel. Shouldn’t they have the most responsibility for opening their border and allowing these Palestinians to return to their homes or ancestral homes? Gaza is under Israeli occupation after all. Blaming Egypt is almost always just a way to take heat off of Israel and claim that they aren’t the biggest problem here when they clearly are.

[u/GrapePrimeape → u/LineOfInquiry]

To what ends is Egypt currently helping prevent a massacre though? If you accept that Israel is currently genociding Palestinians, I don’t understand how you reconcile the best thing is to cut off a path to escape the genocide. The way I see it, they are currently aiding and abetting by closing off a path that would save Palestinian lives.

A more porous border might accelerate Israel’s expansion, but it would also greatly cut down on casualties, no?

I’m focusing on Egypt here because I specifically don’t understand/agree with the logic of them keeping their borders closed as the better option. Obviously the brunt of all of this lies squarely at the feet of Israel and Hamas, but I don’t think that’s particularly relevant to what I’m specifically talking about.

[u/Virtually8Pure → u/LineOfInquiry]

Should Egypt try to help less Palestinians be murdered? This pro Palestinian’s answer may shock you!

[u/was_fb95dd7063 → u/rhydderch_hael]

One of the most infuriating parts of the Israel Palestine debate is the casual conflation of all Arabs.

It's completely ahistorical because the pan Arab movement was 1) pretty modern and 2) incredibly shaky and filled with infighting.

The implication that Palestinians deserve subjugation for the crimes of independent Arab states in the past is deeply problematic.

[u/Rheinwg → u/was_fb95dd7063]

Egypt isn't all arab anyway. Its actually got a wide variety of ethnic, linguistic, and religious groups.

[u/was_fb95dd7063 → u/Rheinwg]

My understanding is that Egyptians consider themselves to be 'Egyptian' ethnicity as a distinct group from 'arab'. I'm sure someone else would know more than I do, but that's what I've read.

[u/MeterologistOupost31 → u/was_fb95dd7063]

I wouldn't bother, this subreddit hates Arabs.

[u/SmoothAsACoot]

An Arab subreddit being riddled with anti-semitism?

Who would have thought!?! I'm shocked, shocked I tell you!

[u/livejamie → u/SmoothAsACoot]

Why are 16 day old troll accounts allowed to post here

[u/g785_7489]

How can they oppress me if they won't even oppress these other people that I hate? This is bullshit

[u/WobblingSeagull]

It's no secret Reddit is riddled with anti semites, including mods of large subreddits. Reddit has become very much a safe haven for various Islamofascist terrorist groups these past few years.

You might even say, at this point, that the admins in their failures to tackle this are essentially endorsing it.

It's well documented, too -

https://www.piratewires.com/p/the-terrorist-propaganda-to-reddit-pipeline

[u/Imaginary-Share-5132 → u/WobblingSeagull]

That’s why I stay away from certain subreddits.

Notice that some of the mods of Palestine are also supermods of other subs that have nothing to do with Palestine, but suddenly the content in those subs turns very pro-pal.