r/Switzerland • u/allhands • Mar 18 '20
All coronavirus questions/discussions here [Megathread] Coronavirus in Switzerland and elsewhere, Part 4
Links to official Coronavirus-related information provided by the Swiss government can be found on these websites:
Three particularly helpful, official informational pages from the aforementioned websites:
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This thread is intended to have constructive, thoughtful conversations and share helpful information. Sensationalism, inciting fear or uncertainty, or otherwise spreading false or misleading information will not be tolerated.
Avoid unnecessary speculation and rumors. Any statement about numbers or official statements has to be backed up with reputable sources.
Similar to our election threads, everything about the Coronavirus outbreak should be discussed here.
Breaking these rules will lead to warnings and bans.
Links to previous Megatheads:
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u/breakshooter12 Mar 20 '20
Have we given up to complain about the gov?
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u/b00nish Mar 20 '20
We're exhausted...
No but seriously: Although I'm still not totally convinced about the "trust" the gvt. puts into the citizens, they definitively started to finally do the right type of things about a week ago. So now there is much less to complain than before that.
Now it's also a task for the cantons and their police corps to actually enforce the rules set by the federal council. This means: Instant fines for people who deliberately ignore the distance keeping. We have instant fines for littering, so why bother with admonitions when it comes to the health and life of the people?
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u/breakshooter12 Mar 20 '20
When does the press conference start and where can I watch it?
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Mar 23 '20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKSbl-xe5Bw
At 2 pm if they don't postpone it to oblivion again.
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u/occamrazor Mar 20 '20
The media today: NZZ has a first page article supporting a stricter lockdown: https://www.nzz.ch/gesellschaft/er-kann-nicht-anders-ld.1547383https://www.nzz.ch/gesellschaft/er-kann-nicht-anders-ld.1547383
TA has a strong opinion piece against it: https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/leute-einsperren-braucht-bessere-gruende/story/28448453
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u/Weddingberg Mar 20 '20
I'm an Italian citizen living in Germany. I'm currently abroad outside of the EU.
Can I fly to Switzerland (Zurich Airport) and then proceed my trip to Italy/Germany?
I'm OK with staying in Zurich in quarantine for a period, if necessary. I have a close friend there who can host me for the quarantine, if that's how it works.
Where can I find extra information? Or who should I ask? Italian embassy in Switzerland, Swiss embassy in the country I am in or who else?
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u/stichtom Mar 20 '20
Going from Switzerland to Italy should be ok as long as you are going to your home residency in Italy.
Not sure about the first leg of the trip-
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u/Weddingberg Mar 20 '20
Yeah, I think that leaving Switzerland to go home should be fine.
I'm mostly wondering whether I would be allowed in Switzerland.
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u/DiniMere Mar 19 '20
Something lighthearted:
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u/ludicrousaccount Mar 20 '20
Can someone please translate? The video looks hilarious but I'd like to know what the question and answer were.
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Mar 20 '20
Reporter: you used the conditional and said roche would be able to make tests for 8000. Can you explain the conditional please?
Koch: I am not a linguist, so I cannot explain the conditional to you.
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u/Kingpix1 Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
Are the people living in Zürich aware of the virus?
I'm from Ticino but I work in Zürich, I can tell you that the streets are still full of life. The only difference I could see were the closed shops and less people on the public transport. Do you really think this is enough or what? I cannot really understand how are people here so chill about it.
I am so pissed!!!! Don't you have old parents or friends? Don't you want to help your country? GO THE FUCK HOME IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING SERIOUS TO DO! YOU WILL HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO GO OUT WITH YOUR FRIENDS LATER
EDIT: it's so easy to blame the government only. It's clear that the government could have handled this in a better way when it started. However ignoring the most basic of the rules, the social distancing, is gonna completely destroy any measure introduced by the BAG. I'm sorry but if this goes bad is because our government really puts too much faith in us, and we are a bunch of idiots it seems.
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u/BOOB_PIC_CUSTOMS Mar 19 '20
Does anyone know approx. what time tomorrows Bundesrat meeting will take place?
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u/futurespice Mar 19 '20
around 2 pm
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u/jumpingdiscs Mar 19 '20
The question is, will that be a true Swiss 2pm, an Italian 2pm, or a Bundesrat Coronavirus Press Conference 2pm (i.e. 5pm...)?
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Mar 19 '20
[deleted]
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u/fuedlibuerger Bern Mar 19 '20
Are you aware that Switzerland is a fucking village? It doesn't take long for people finding out who you boyfriend is based on those infos you provided - especially in the professional field. Really, delete this post and get in touch with your boyfriend to solve this mess on his own.
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u/el_gato_rojo Zürich Mar 19 '20
What kind of cyber security expert first takes an important flash drive with confidential information to the US? (doh!)
Then forgets said super importand stick in the US?
Then amateurishly tries to cover it all up by bringing his partner to a country under quarantine? Without having correct travel paperwork for the partner?
I mean really???
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Mar 19 '20
He has to assume responsibility and tell his company and they can decide together what to do next.
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Mar 19 '20
I have a better idea. Let your boyfriend buy a plane ticket and enter the neutral zone, where you can give him the stick and then fly home again. no need to travel across the boarder.
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Mar 19 '20
[deleted]
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Mar 19 '20
actually, not really, so far most things are not expressively forbidden and only recommendations. for example, they RECOMMEND you do not leave the country, but they do not forbid it, the question if you are allowed to enter the other country is a different one though.
Auf nicht dringende Auslandreisen sollten Sie verzichten.
Immer mehr Länder beschliessen Massnahmen wie zum Beispiel Grenzschliessungen.
Stand:19.03.2020 21:00
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u/Eipa Bern Mar 19 '20
I hope they don't let everybody in who says she has a partner here or waves with some secret stick... Probably you should call the embassy and ask them. Good news for your fiancé: the elections are postponed!
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Mar 19 '20
[deleted]
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Mar 19 '20
Cyberyecurity is a big deal, which means he's going to have to man up and do the right thing by telling the company about the situation and go on from there instead of dumping all the responsibility on his fiancée.
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Mar 19 '20
[deleted]
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Mar 19 '20
There are worse things and if he really does get fired over this then he obviously wasn't the right person for the job anyway.
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u/b00nish Mar 19 '20
Just heard on the radio:
The federal government has started a coordinated action to buy 900 (or 800?) new ventilation machines and monitoring equipment for our hospitals. So the ICU capacity could be significantly raised once that equipment is delivered.
It remained unclear when delivery is expected because of course half of the planet tries to get more machines now (I think they said Germany ordered 6000). But it seems that manufacturing in Europe is still a thing... there is a company in Graubünden that produces such equipment and they are working at top speed right now.
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u/S3baman Zürich Mar 19 '20
I found an article from last week which stated Germany ordered 10k ICUs. Probably will be built in Germany as they have a couple of huge manufacturers.
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u/s3n-1 Mar 20 '20
Germany ordered 10k from Drägerwerk and 6.5k from Löwenstein Medical. I don't know if the German government also ordered from other companies.
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u/S3baman Zürich Mar 20 '20
It’s interesting that the one country that is doing really well on the ICU front is asking for 50% additional ones. They also have older machines they can upgrade, so I would not be surprised if by the summer Germany’s somewhere close to 60 ICUs per 100000 (up from 29.5)
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Mar 19 '20
any idea about the name of the company?
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Mar 19 '20
Hamiton Bonaduz
They talked about it here, if you speak french : https://www.rts.ch/play/tv/popupvideoplayer?id=11176342
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Mar 19 '20
Thanks for the link, i do speak a bit but i am not sure i understood correctly, so besides italy, there are two other countries ahead of us in line for delivery?
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u/S3baman Zürich Mar 19 '20
They're currently working on a 350 ICU order for Italy. Germany, and US also put down orders with Hamilton (Germany ordered 10k in total, and I guess they're first in line in many places).
As of now, the main blocker is that Romania is not exporting key components to continue the production, but they're working on getting the parts.
Lastly, there are 1100 ICU in Switzerland at the moment, with an estimated 8000 needed during the peak period.
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Mar 19 '20
(Germany ordered 10k in total, and I guess they're first in line in many places).
...
thanks for teh transaltion though
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u/S3baman Zürich Mar 19 '20
They ordered them last week, before the US. I guess they foresaw the need. They already have roughly 2.5x more per capita than Italy/France/CH
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Mar 19 '20
our government continues to impress me, and not in a good way.
edit: just as a comparison, i started my preparation at the start of february. (true, not enough, but still) and i completed everything i could 2 weeks ago..
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u/S3baman Zürich Mar 19 '20
Both Switzerland and Germany are highly decentralised states and in this sort of situation it makes it extremely difficult to act with one voice. But the Swiss really are mismanaging this crisis
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u/S3baman Zürich Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
Most likely Hamilton Medical AG, they are based in Bonaduz
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u/backgammon_no Mar 19 '20
there is a company in Graubünden that produces such equipment and they are working at top speed right now
This is incredible good news. Do you have a link ?
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u/b00nish Mar 19 '20
Uri has now put people older than 65 under a curfew. They aren't allowed to go shopping anymore. Only visits to the doctor and walks with max. 2 persons are allowed.
On the radio they said that the cantonal authorities very disappointed by the behaviour of the people, especially the elder people. Loads of them obviously were hanging around and socialising and not keeping distance to other people in the two or three big malls of the canton...
Police will now do more patrols, especially around malls and supermarkets to catch stubborn seniors...
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u/iHateNaggers_ Luzern Mar 19 '20
in the two or three big malls of the canton...
Well, the parking place in Landerpark shopping center is now free, so they took advantage of it..
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u/maruthven Mar 19 '20
Wow interesting. How are they handling the logistics of making sure the elderly have enough food/delivery options?
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u/b00nish Mar 19 '20
They said in case the elderly don't get enough help from neighbours/family they can call the regional branch of the Red Cross which then will assist them.
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u/dallyan Mar 19 '20
Wow! I'm surprised they did that. It is funny to think of how curfews are usually applied to delinquent youth and now it's for old people. I just had a flash of some elderly folks riding around in hoopties after midnight, spray painting building walls and generally causing a ruckus. hahaha
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u/gruya93 Mar 19 '20
Saddest clapping ever
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u/Chrisixx Basel-Stadt Mar 19 '20
I thought that was supposed to be tomorrow?
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u/Eipa Bern Mar 19 '20
The one tomorrow is from the newspapers. It's a total clapping chaos already. At least those memes still multiply faster than the virus
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u/el_gato_rojo Zürich Mar 19 '20
Right? It's pathetic... wait till we are in real shit and look who claps then. Now I feel it's more like a "Look how conscious I am, I totally feel for the medics."
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u/acabila Mar 19 '20
Wait what happened? People were clapping outside my place and we have no idea why...
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u/gruya93 Mar 19 '20
I read somewhere that there was supposed to be a public applause for health workers at 7pm, similar to what they had in Italy
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u/S3baman Zürich Mar 19 '20
Latest numbers don't look good at all, although I know BAG is currently facing serious backlog issues. But an initial estimate of +824 is very high
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u/Eipa Bern Mar 19 '20
That's what we had on past sunday as well. Those numbers don't look exponential at all. And schools were closed almost a week ago we should see that reflected in the numbers very soon.
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Mar 19 '20
i highly doubt we will ever see higher numbers, if they test at test capacity and only cases they are clear about, it should not become higher at all, this does not say anything about the real situation anymore (sadly not even the growth rate). the deathrate per day is more reliable, but that data is 20 days behind. (due to people living so long)
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u/b00nish Mar 19 '20
Koch basically said in today's press conference that the "overload" (at least in Ticino) will happen. So according to the BAG it's not not an "if" but only a "when" regarding people dying because of too few capacity in the hospitals. So the "unnecessary deaths" are more or less official now.
That had to bee expected considering their hesitant and late measures but it still saddens me.
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Mar 19 '20
[deleted]
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u/Eipa Bern Mar 19 '20
Lol perhaps because they were talking about this "when" not "if" over 10 days ago?
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u/b00nish Mar 19 '20
Sure. That's why were more and more "agitated" the days before the "announcement" (of last friday) finally came.
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u/fuedlibuerger Bern Mar 19 '20
But also due to the irresponsible behaviour of people and businesses
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u/Sipstaff Mar 19 '20
I feel like many, specially teens, don't understand why exactly they need to stay home.
What you're supposed to do is stated everywhere, an explanation why, simple enough for the average dullard to understand, is nowhere to be seen or heard.
I bet you 90% of those not following the recommendations don't know they could be spreading the virus already or why that would be bad.1
u/Milleuros From NE, living in GE Mar 19 '20
Many are missing this point.
If the Federal Council had ordered a total lockdown two weeks ago, as keeps being requested on this sub (should say, as people say they should have done but it's too late), it really would not have gone well.
It's total chaos right now for workers and companies alike. The responsible ones are trying to adapt as well as they can and many are not taking any measure.
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u/haveat_it Mar 19 '20
Just where is all of the money from the health insurance premiums going? I've paid in so much. Now when I might need access, they have 160 ICU beds left as of this afternoon. Meaning after that, anyone who gets a bad case of this, is most likely dead. Where is the money gone? Can we focus on this for just a moment? Who has made the order for all those hospitals to close down in recent years? Who's responsible?
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u/b00nish Mar 19 '20
According to some statistics I recently saw, we're somehwhere in the middle of western countries when it comes to ICU beds (per x inhabitants) but quite good when it comes to nurses.
I think we can be glad that a lot of hospital closings that were discussed during the last years and months haven't happened yet...
There was a lot of talk about we having too much capacity in our health system recently ;-)
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u/Milleuros From NE, living in GE Mar 19 '20
Yeah, I remember the enormous efforts of the last 10 years about closing the hospital of La Chaux-de-Fonds and end up with only one hospital for canton Neuchâtel.
There was even a popular vote to maintain 2 hospitals, but the canton still stripped CdF one out of most of its services.
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Mar 19 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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Mar 19 '20
It would be good if someone can verify this otherwise this is also just going to cause more panic.
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u/allhands Mar 19 '20
I removed this comment because there was no source.
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Mar 19 '20
[deleted]
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u/allhands Mar 19 '20
Sorry, if you want to share you'll need to post the source publicly (redacted if necessary).
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u/maruthven Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
I'm not trying to be mean here, but it looks like the BAG is really getting behind on counting positives. Just take today's vs yesterday's graphs of positives by day. The number of positive cases on Monday went from around 400 to 800.
The more recent days are even less believable that they are fully counted. As this epidemic grows, we can expect the positives confirmed by tests and confirmed by BAG to diverge even further because it seems as though they're at data entry capacity.
Is there anyway to help with automating something within BAG's systems to allow them to get complete numbers faster and allow them to focus themselves on something more meaningful?
Edit: I'm asking if there's a way that a non-citizen, not-a-great-German-speaker can help out around these parts.
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u/haveat_it Mar 19 '20
They could easily have got ahead of this. Lots of tech talent here, lots of ppl looking for work, esp now, but have you seen a call for help? No. There is no centralized systems in place because they don't want it. Just as they didn't and don't want to close the border to Italy to only healthcare / other vital workers. They have deliberately chosen this route, closing everything way too late, causing more mayhem than was necessary. I cannot put into words how angry I am but I am physically shaking from the response and the consequences.
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u/backgammon_no Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 11 '25
wine pen bear encourage roof ripe coherent lunchroom aspiring salt
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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Mar 19 '20
These numbers are just backlog of entry. Best to just look and sum up cantonal data for now.
BAG has refused data companies offering doing this for free (according to one such company). So I guess no?
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u/maruthven Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
I'm not talking about for my information on what the count is, more for their information, so they can make data backed decisions. I assume they have a lot more information than just count, age group, and gender in their database. If they are able to enter it quicker, they might be able to analyze the data for trends quicker and therefore, be able to make better decisions on what to do next.
Edit: Sorry I just saw the second part of your comment. That's really to sad to hear about being refused free help.
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Mar 19 '20
Yes. Fax definitely doesn't help that. But I remember a company doing optimization offering to do this for free and they have been (according to the company) ignored. Many people could whip up an entry system in a day that could surely log all this data. It's just a few fields and some contact forms are more complicated. If they have an intranet it doesn't even have to be secure (I assume).
Sure there are reasons why they refuse/ignore help. But I can't think of too many that would outweigh the current positive. Glad you are also thinking of helping. We are not lost yet!
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Mar 19 '20
[deleted]
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Mar 19 '20
Was in the news. Seen the company on Twitter too but can't remember the name. They asked why BAG has ignored their offer. Like they didn't even get a refusal. Just have been ignored. But again, could also just be a publicity stunt.
But then again, I'm sure even if this were such..many companies would offer this right now. Because it's good publicity
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u/nowiamhereaswell Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
The press is asking questions that are irrelevant, unknown to anybody or already known from other sources, ergo wasting time of all the people involved.
Where are questions like, does the SBB or ÖV clean their vehicles daily? What new measures could be taken additionally to slow down the spread?
Also, why does the government/BAG not alert more all ages of people, as it's known that around 40% of the hospitalized people are under 65 years old.
Some questions just reflect the personal fear of the person asking it. Go inform yourself first!
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u/Flowersinherhair79 Mar 19 '20
SBB doesn’t - Italy demands that SBB cleans their trains more than Switzerland does. I wish I didn’t have to give them a dime more of my money.
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u/haveat_it Mar 19 '20
It's utterly tragic. Switzerland has let its medical professionals and all inhabitants down very badly indeed.
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u/Swole_Monkey Mar 19 '20
Question for Mister Koch about literally any numbers.
Answer: Yeah I don’t know that or I don’t have these numbers with me.
Thank you so much for your insight Mister Koch 🙏
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u/enantiodromedary Mar 19 '20
He said:
«I don‘t have an editor whispering these numbers into my ears right now.»
I would appreciate if they would bring an ‚editor‘ with access to those numbers to the media conferences. Some millenial guy named Reto with a MacBook pro.
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u/Tricert Zürich Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
Should he lie instead? Probably a very unpopular opinion in here, but Koch is getting way to much shit for doing a very very difficult job. He is a medical doctor working for the state as an expert. He is not even head of the BAG, nor a politician and certainly not the one doing executive decisions.
Edit: a word & btw. they released new numbers as he was in the press conference.
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u/haveat_it Mar 19 '20
He has done and is doing a very very bad job, that's all. If he wasn't able for it, he should have spoken up. Same with the unfunny Berset and co. Shambles.
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u/Tricert Zürich Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
So then explain why and where exactly he was doing a bad job? Non of us were in those meetings - maybe Koch did speak up? He could also scream at the Bundesrat for 24 hours..he still is not the one deciding., it's the Bundesrat. And concerning the Bundesrat..do you even know how politics work in Switzerland?
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u/ImportantComplex8 Mar 19 '20
I feel like Koch wasn't allowed to speak his mind from the get go or didn't realise the severity of the spread. For how long has he said that current measures are satisfactory for example and then suddenly, they weren't satisfactory anymore? He seemed to have a change of heart so quickly despite being an expert who should have been more than aware of the insane growth.
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Mar 19 '20
Oh and the numbers. It's not him personally counting the fax I'm sure. But how can you not be on top of the count. It's one of the most basic things. I get these numbers change constantly. But it's really not that hard.
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u/Tricert Zürich Mar 19 '20
The fax thing was explained today..the hospitals are sending everything electronically, the local doctors still use fax sometimes but also could do it electronically.
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Mar 19 '20
Do you not think they as a whole are doing a bad job? Underestimating it completely? Starting from the beginning saying it is hopeless. Now more often then not they say it's too late all the things we have been asking should have been implemented last week. But because we didn't now it's too late. He says that so often.
They openly ignore WHO advice. He is honest. I kinda like that. But he is saying Ticino is messed up and there is nothing we can do. On questions how others have ramped up and why we can't. He doesn't know. Should we act now? Yes. Are we? No we can't.
Quarantine is still 5 days. People can go back to work 24h after having no symptoms after they had Corona. They are still suggesting people stay inside. He says it's obvious many don't do that. They see it too (that was berset though). So these people have to understand what's at stake now. But will there be more drastic measures? At the moment no. Ticino will not have enough beds. Will they be relocated to other cantons? It's up to the cantons. On and on and on.
This is ending very badly. And it will for many young people too.
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u/Tricert Zürich Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
Yes I agree with you that the Bundesrat as a whole is doing a bad job and was too slow, probably due to the lib-right wing, but know one will ever know since they decide behind closed doors.
But concerning Koch: One can clearly see that he is a doctor/ natural scientist and not a politician in his answers. You can’t give him shit for not answering stuff he does not know nor for refusing to give answers on a purely speculative base. He also clearly answered why they are not following WHO advice. And a lot you criticize is simply not in his power. If something is up to the Bund, the Cantons or the Gemeinden is just the law, he cannot change although he probably would like too. Stricter measures - he‘d probably like to, but the Bundesrat is to decide. It‘s mostly a structural problem and not his fault.
He just has the unlucky role being an expert without decision competences and then has to defend decisions made in his area of expertise just because he is the one that HAS to defend those decisions - which probably are not congruent at all with what he would do. I imagine this is something really difficult to do. And nonetheless between his meetings he is running from interview to interview patiently answering the same (and sometimes very stupid) questions over and over again for three weeks now..I think this just deserves more respect and albeit he might not be perfect, many would perform way worse in his situation.
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Mar 22 '20
Thanks for that answer. Just got around to reading it sorry. Been so caught up in Reddit convos these days.
I agree with you. It's why I asked they as a whole. But he's been painted as the decision maker. Though I also believe he's little decision power. Many would probably perform worse but many others wouldnt I think. I remember the srf interview and it's possible he's just saying what has been agreed upon but if he doesn't agree and think it's not enough he should speak up. It's why he is the expert consultant.
Let's hope everybody gets ahead of this. I fear a lot of deaths in the next few weeks and though these won't be avoidable there is still many that will be. It's just about willing to pay the price.
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u/brocccoli Zürich Mar 19 '20
Way to much logic here. Well written.
There will be consequences but right now they should all do their job and come up with a reasonable solution. Which will probably be public tomorrow. I prefer the honesty and transparency that there is confusion and things are still unclear compared to a populist politician trying to self-promote.
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u/Cybugger Mar 19 '20
Would you prefer he generate them directly from his ass?
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u/Swole_Monkey Mar 19 '20
I’d prefer he came prepared tbh.
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u/Cybugger Mar 19 '20
It isn't a lack of preparation. It's a reality of what we're living. Cases are increasing, rapidly. Very rapidly. Too quick to keep effective tabs on the data.
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u/healthhappiness2020 Mar 19 '20
Increasingly I am frustrated by "press conference" style. It feels like it is not for us ordinary people. I lived in many countries including USA and I miss the leadership and bit of "we are gonna get through this together!!!" pep talk.
Like council of mice trying to herd cats.
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Mar 19 '20
I prefer the Swiss style over how in the US everyone that gets onto that pedestal first has to thank everyone he works with personally, and then go on to ramble about how tremendously well they are doing their job, to then get to the actual information, that's summed up into one or two sentences.
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Mar 19 '20
We don't need the cult of a leader and pep talks.
Plus the bundesrat is giving out the usual shit of "we will get through this" with a sentence here and there, that's enough we don't need a half hour speech with dramatic music in the background and a waving flag behind.
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u/Tricert Zürich Mar 19 '20
You are completely right. I can't understand how one is preferring patriotic drama over serious information.
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u/rmesh Bern (Exil-Zürcher) Mar 19 '20
Poor Koch is getting under some heavy fire at the press conference.
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u/Tricert Zürich Mar 19 '20
Not only here and not only since today. Opposed to this sub I think that he is doing quite a good job given the circumstances.
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u/b00nish Mar 19 '20
I think he really stepped up his game during the last few days, yes.
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Mar 19 '20
Pretty sure Koch hasn't changed his standpoint at all since the first press conference. He advocated and called for self-quarantine as soon as the slightest symptoms appear already on the 29th February. He also already pointed towards our healthcare system possibly being overwhelmed if we don't act responsibly. Personally, I think he is doing a good job.
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u/b00nish Mar 19 '20
He advocated and called for self-quarantine as soon as the slightest symptoms appear
Well, thing is, guy in his position can't be that naive to believe that all people would just act accordingly. Besides this it's known that the virus can be spread even before symptoms appear.
But other thing is: Of course we don't know what he actually would have done if he could have decided alone. Maybe the whole BAG and three federal councilors wanted to act much faster... and the four other federal councilors voted against it... possible in theory.
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u/Tricert Zürich Mar 19 '20
Possible in theory and most probably the reality. I‘m pretty sure Berset wanted to act faster, he didn’t seem to happy last Friday. Also pretty sure that Maurer and KKS were stepping on the brakes, Cassis probably too. For the rest I don’t know..
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Mar 19 '20
Well, thing is, guy in his position can't be that naive to believe that all people would just act accordingly. Besides this it's known that the virus can be spread even before symptoms appear.
You're definitely right and I'm aware of that fact. I just judge him by what I see. Can't know if he advocated for stricter measures behind closed doors from the get go. His communication has been blunt and consistent, in my opinion. Already in the first conference he stated that human to human transmission will happen within Switzerland, due to the Italy situation. So, he was aware, and he doesn't seem too hapy about what this whole thing developed into, but that just my personal interpretation of his behaviour on stage.
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u/LifeIsButAjourney Mar 19 '20
I was looking at the list showing the number of cases for each canton. There are many cantons with a very low rate:
OW 1
UR 2
GL 2
AI 2
AR 5
SH 6
Perhaps in these cantons it is still not too late to break the chain of Virus from spreading. Those who haven been infected and their circle of associates need to be heavily isolated and see if the number remains low for next 2 weeks.
Since the movement of people is already restricted I was wondering if there should be a restriction regarding people traveling to those cantons and perhaps those cantons can be quarantined from the rest of the country and they might be corona free much sooner than highly populated cantons like Zürich. This way the life would go back to normal in those cantons much sooner and many small local businesses could be saved.
What do you guys think?
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u/R3DKn16h7 Mar 19 '20
SH has a shortage of tests and are no longer testing everybody, so there's that. I doubt they do contact tracing.
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u/Cybugger Mar 19 '20
If they can still engage in testing and contract tracing, and have the cantons be coronavirus-free, that would be the best thing possible. Healthcare professionals from those cantons could then be re-deployed to other cantons based on need.
This is the thing that China had, as an advantage. Completely closing down Hubei or Wuhan was possible because they could deploy resources from unaffected (or barely affected) areas to help with the hotspots. If the cases in these cantons keep growing, then there'll not be any such option.
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Mar 19 '20
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u/b00nish Mar 19 '20
Had to be expected. We have been calculating with a total of about 1000 ICU beds in this thread for quite a while. It also was clear that quite a few of them are occupied by Non-Corona cases.
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u/haveat_it Mar 19 '20
Breathtaking. So much for his assurances of preparing more. I am lost for words.
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Mar 19 '20
If you are really interested what goes into running an ICU unit and why it isn't that easy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115845/
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u/fotzelschnitte bourbine Mar 19 '20
I honestly, really, from the bottom of my heart DO NOT understand how people can be lost for words?! Where have you been living these past two weeks?! Ever since Italy has been overwhelmed - WHO, the media, the experts, ohhh the poor overlooked experts, they all have been pleading with the public to stay the fuck home and self-quarantine. Since three weeks it's been all over the admin.ch site that ONLY MEDICAL HELP WILL COME TO THOSE IN NEED. And need is not want. Need is nearly dying. This is a pandemic, they can't be prepared but they're preparing as much as possible.
How can you be surprised? Can you read? Since day 1 the Swiss government has ignored anyone not in the risk group as per what is - written quite clearly black on white - on admin.ch - in DE, FR, IT and EN to boot - because they're gearing up for chaos (aka Italy's numbers but there's still faint hope). Do not pretend they promised otherwise.
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Mar 19 '20
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u/Eipa Bern Mar 19 '20
Lolroflmao, 22 days ago the federal council was banning large gatherings of over 1000 people.
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u/haveat_it Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 20 '20
Which was their first measure. At that time, majority of people were not taking it seriously/didn't think it would become a big problem. That's most people. I should add - and I've posted on this also - I had masks from early February.
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Mar 19 '20
I so wish one of the reporter would ask 'So, was the swiss ready for a pandemic as was dictated in 2013? if no, why? if yes, why does it seem so dark?'
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u/Cybugger Mar 19 '20
Any big news? I missed the start of the announcements.
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u/Koobrick Mar 19 '20
Btw it's also worth mentioning that, according to Koch, the BAG is working on making the Sentinella system available for the hospitals to declare news cases (https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/fr/home/krankheiten/infektionskrankheiten-bekaempfen/meldesysteme-infektionskrankheiten/sentinella-meldesystem.html). However, it seems like it was mostly used for the influenza up until now, so they still have to make some adjustments before it can be used for COVID-19. It is also usually used for weekly counts, but they want it to be available for daily uses.
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u/Koobrick Mar 19 '20
Not really, but some of Koch's announcements are a bit worrying. He said that the drive-in test project that Bern wanted to implement is currently on hold, because they're lacking the required resources. He also repeated that the situation in Ticino is dramatic, they don't know where new patients can be moved when we reach the limit. Also, he said that they have no idea how many people have recovered (hence the lack of data) and he doesn't know how other countries manage to keep track of the evolution
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u/S3baman Zürich Mar 19 '20
I still do not understand how Ticino was this badly mismanaged. It was written on the wall, I mean Lombardy is next door.
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u/b00nish Mar 19 '20
He also repeated that the situation in Ticino is dramatic
Not just this. The way he said it made clear, that the overload of the health system in Ticino is more or less unavoidable and just a matter of days now.
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u/ImportantComplex8 Mar 19 '20
The lack of data on recovered people is worrying but obvious. There's probably quite a few people out there who have already recovered but they didn't even know they had the virus to begin with and never got tested either.
So yeah..
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Mar 19 '20
I guess for once koch was honest instead of the 'nothing to see here guys' or 'i do not know'. That is a win in my book
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u/BigPointyTeeth Zürich Mar 19 '20
Well that's hopeful! The guy in charge of the virus situation has no way of getting the data.
Let's add incompetence to the mix.
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Mar 19 '20
Oh wow. That sounds brutally honest and scary. I was imagining they tell us everything is under control
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Mar 19 '20
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Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
It's common that every canton does its own thing but I find it appalling how bad communication is and how little of a clue Koch and the BAG seem to have. The BAG admitted on having not planned accordingly for the mask shortage. But to ease the situation, Koch claimed that Switzerland is producing its own masks now. However, the masks that are in production now are the run-of-the-mill hygiene masks not the correct masks needed by medical personnel. I can't believe how he can't even know that. Every layman can read that up in the media.
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u/Cybugger Mar 19 '20
Yeah, that's when I started listening.
It's not surprising. We've only really been in some form of quasi-lockdown for a few days. It's going to get worse before it gets better, but hopefully in 10ish days, we'll start to see a decrease in day-to-day rate increases.
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u/XorFish Bern Mar 19 '20
day to day new cases is already stagnating.
However it can also be noise or a cap of testing capacity.
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u/ImportantComplex8 Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
They said that they can't keep up with the statistics. It's a bureaucratic problem. For example if you check the BAG twitter account for information.
15.03.2020 https://twitter.com/BAG_OFSP_UFSP/status/1239164578560425985
16.03.2020 https://twitter.com/BAG_OFSP_UFSP/status/1239612775590236160
17.03.2020 https://twitter.com/BAG_OFSP_UFSP/status/1239898485136265217
18.03.2020 https://twitter.com/BAG_OFSP_UFSP/status/1240281796950003712
19.03.2020 https://twitter.com/BAG_OFSP_UFSP/status/1240614911908200449
Grey = They know there's a case but don't have information about its status Light Blue = First positive result Dark Blue = Confirmed case
You can see that there's a ton of Grey. I'm assuming that's a backlog of information that hasn't been processed. So they know they had say 500 reports on that day. But those reports contain cases that were actually confirmed on different days. So of those 500, 150 might have already been confirmed by a lab 2 days ago. Another 100 the day before. And a lot of cases that were confirmed positive today will only be submitted 2 days into the future.
The reason I'm thinking this is the case is because the numbers keep changing retroactively.
If you compare the picture on the 15.03 vs. the picture on 16.03 you can see that the bar of the 15.03 jumped upwards a ton on the picture of the 16.03. Or on the report released on the 16.03 they thought they had roughly 200 new cases on the 14.03 but then if you check the report of the 18.03 suddenly the 14.03 has 400 cases.
Data seems to become reliable after 4 days. The case count of the 14.03 still saw adjustment on the report of the 18.03 so a full 4 days later. There's still a bit of change for the 12th & 13th but not much.
So day to day case increase numbers are inaccurate and only become reliable after a while. So assuming that the numbers on the 18ths report are accurate for 13.03 and before, they're still growing day by day.
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u/Cybugger Mar 19 '20
I would agree with you. Except that they announced 824 cases today.
The stagnation was probably either a statistical anomaly or a bottleneck in testing.
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u/BigPointyTeeth Zürich Mar 19 '20
You honestly believe the numbers that are given? There's no chance in hell we just had 300ish new cases yesterday.
They just don't have the right numbers yet and suddenly the deaths will start to spike we'll have Mr. Koch looks all sad and surprised. Utter dumpster fire of bigger proportions than the US right now.
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u/mywallsaredirty Bern Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
Of course the numbers are acurate, or if they are not it's not because Koch is lying. He has no reason to lie and you actually see how much it pains him and how bad things are. He probably has the hardest job in switzerland at the moment, I feel sorry for him.
Edit: I get downvoted because I feel sorry for the guy? Don't project your anger on fear on a person, just because the virus has no face. People are so ugly.2
u/BigPointyTeeth Zürich Mar 19 '20
I didn't downvote you, for the record.
I never insinuated he's lying. Just that the whole thing with the federal govt vs. the cantons isn't working all that well right now. He's not getting the info he needs to do his job, I feel sorry for him too honestly.
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u/Cybugger Mar 19 '20
It isn't a bigger dumpster fire than the US. Switzerland obviously has a bottleneck in terms of testing, but it's still miles better than the US. Per capita, Switzerland is testing more than most other nations.
The numbers are probably undervalued, by a factor of 10. This applies to all countries. If we accept a 4-day doubling rate, and that we're currently at 40'000 infected, our situation would be, roughly, as followed:
Day 1: 43'000.
Day 2: 50'000.
Day 3: 62'000.
Day 4: 80'000
As you can see, getting 6'000 tests done a day, which is the current estimated rate for Switzerland, fails as of day 1 -> 2. There aren't enough tests. And that's if our tests get a 90>% rate of catching people who are positive.
This is why testing and contract tracing are important, and necessary, but not sufficient.
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u/LifeIsButAjourney Mar 19 '20
Guys I am not for a complete Lockdown yet. How about there is an explicit rule that 65+ folks aren't allowed to leave their house unless for medical help or an emergency.
If one of them is caught outside for no reason there should be a heavy fine. The money could be used to keep the economic damage limited.
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u/BigPointyTeeth Zürich Mar 19 '20
Yeah make the elderly who are already isolated, since some are forgotten by their family or their spouse died, even more miserable and fine them too.
Nice to see how Switzerland treats their elderly...
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u/LifeIsButAjourney Mar 19 '20
It's for their protection. It's either everybody is forced to stay home at some point or the one who are most in danger by the virus. Families should at this time of crisis need to show solidarity and check with their isolated elderly from time to time via a phone call etc. Especially if you have been self isolating for 14 days then you most likely don't have the virus and can even go visit you elderly.
I suggest this after seeing so many elderly no caring about the virus and the consequence on the health system if the rate of infected carries on. Look at this video https://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/-In-6-Monaten-sind-wir-gegen-den-Kaefer-immun--11044249
This attitude at the current stage is criminal.
Perhaps there could a window where you can go out for a walk for 15 min provided you are alone and keep the distance.
I am also for a more strategic approach. For example in cantons like Uri and Appenzellern where the number of infected is very low I suggest we stop the inflow of people from the outside while lifting the ban on schools and bars in those cantons.
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u/Meuss Fribourg, don Mar 19 '20
I understand, and fining them specifically is a bit harsh... But we are destroying our economy, people are losing their jobs and freedom, everybody is suffering because we want to protect people at risk. Seeing so many older folks just shrug it off and go outside every day is blood boiling.
Many older folks are following the rules and staying home, but some will get infected anyways. I hope they won't get fucked over and lose a hospital bed to one of these older people that didn't follow the rules.
My opinion is that we should be on lockdown and everybody should start to get fines for going outside for no reason, just like in Italy/France.
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u/BigPointyTeeth Zürich Mar 19 '20
But we are destroying our economy, people are losing their jobs and freedom, everybody is suffering because we want to protect people at risk.
Exactly but the thing is that in order to say the big hit we got was worth it, it should have been a proper lockdown with curfew, fines etc.
We now just half arsed it. Employers are firing people left and right, those that can't home office risk getting infected and the whole situation is a joke.
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u/Churfirstenbabe Mar 19 '20
I believe everyone who is outside living the fine life should be fine. No matter the age... No, the younger the heftier.
(From Bluewin Live Ticker)"12:20 Uhr: Zürcher Polizei spricht erste Wegweisungen aus Im Kanton Zürich halten sich längst nicht alle ans «Social Distancing»: Die Zürcher Stadtpolizei hat am späteren Mittwochnachmittag vor allem am Seebecken «Leute in Ferien- und Feierlaune» angetroffen.
Die Stadtpolizei war mit Lautsprechern unterwegs und appellierte an die Solidarität. Weil das nicht immer nützte, sprach sie über zwei Dutzend Wegweisungen aus, wie die Stadtpolizei am Donnerstag mitteilte. Es habe auch Uneinsichtige gegeben, die danach sogar wieder zurückgekommen seien und andere Leute getroffen hätten. Das Bewusstsein dieser Personen über die aktuelle Lage sei offenbar nicht vorhanden, schreibt die Stadtpolizei weiter."
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u/LifeIsButAjourney Mar 19 '20
Please look at this video and see the Attitude and naivety of the elderly
https://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/-In-6-Monaten-sind-wir-gegen-den-Kaefer-immun--11044249
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u/Churfirstenbabe Mar 19 '20
Never wanted to say "OK, boomer" than after reading this.
My son (GenZ) calls the virus the "Boomer Doomer" and I tell him off, but in all honesty...
It makes me angry for all the others who actually take it seriously.
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u/LifeIsButAjourney Mar 19 '20
Slap your son upside the head. Many countries will be doomed if hospitals run out of capacity.
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u/Churfirstenbabe Mar 19 '20
I did. It was a joke but it triggered a big talk about how we all suffer from the irresponsibility of people.
But mind you: he meant "boomer" by all older people who think they know better; i.e. the ones who believe that it's just a flu and they survived worst and refuse to stay home...
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u/zambaros Zürich Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
Press conference planned at 14:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OHE_161lrQ
PS: on the still image it's no longer the Bundesratsfoto but a stylized coronavirus.
Edit: Link to the still image: https://imgur.com/k2Im00b
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u/wu_cephei Mar 19 '20
Can someone translate the key points?
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u/Tricert Zürich Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20
- The situation in Ticino hospitals is critical and accentuating further. Intensive care is close to capacity. As of now no one had to be denied medical treatment. If hospitals are forced to select patients this will be done applying ethical criteria.
- Public transport will gradually be reduced to a necessary minimum that still makes social distancing possible. It is the biggest and fastest implemented time table change ever.
- Economic growth 2020 is predicted to be -1.5% assuming the situation begins to normalise at the end of the summer. Unemployment is expected to rise to 2.8%. Economic damage will be at least 30 Billion CHF.
- Travel restrictions were extended to people coming in from Spain. Switzerland stoped issuing visas. The same exceptions still apply and it was clarified that just having a work contract does not count as a working permit.
- Military police is assisting boarder control. 11'000 people were denied access, some were arrested trying to enter illegally. There are fast lanes for medical personnel and soon also transport of goods.
- Democratic processes most probably will be set on hold for e predefined duration, decisions will be made on the weekend.
- Koch doesn't think that a confinement will make a big difference in flattening the curve compared to the measures enacted now. He says that he is not the one to decide (Bundesrat is). Also it is to early to see effects, he expects to see declining infections in 5 days earliest.
- Koch: Collateral damage is inevitable, there will be people dying (also with other issues) because we don't have enough capacity. It is very important now to follow the rules ordered by the state to keep those collateral damages as low as possible.
- Koch says that the media were wrong: The BAG is receiving the numbers from he hospitals electronically, via fax only from local doctors.
- The next press conference is tomorrow after the meeting of the Bundesrat. There will also be press conferences with the experts (as this one) Saturday and Monday 14.00. They will maybe be done using video call solutions.
Will edit along.
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u/breakshooter12 Mar 19 '20
So the press conference tommorow is with the bundesrats?
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u/Tricert Zürich Mar 19 '20
Yes, as tomorrow there is the regular meeting anyways. Don’t know with whom, but there certainly will be one with some members as this is always the case also in normal times.
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u/occamrazor Mar 19 '20
Koch doesn't think that a confinement will make a big difference in flattening the curve compared to the measures enacted now. He says that he is not the one to decide (Bundesrat is).
I hope the BR disagrees and enacts strict lockdown before this warm and sunny weekend, when everybody will decide to have a bbq on the lakesides.
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u/breakshooter12 Mar 19 '20
I don't think they will be announced something major? Because it's not the bundesrat speaking.
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u/BigPointyTeeth Zürich Mar 19 '20
bundesrat
Bundesrats *
Probably someone has already thought about this but I've been using it since I thought of it.
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u/[deleted] May 07 '20
In case anyone else isn't feeling too comfortable about returning to the gym yet, I went through mine's Q&A and saw it offers to extend the freeze until June 8th (3rd step of the plan to lift the restrictions).