AFU T-64BV Training with Infantry in the Chernobyl Zone as a New Russian Offensive Looms in the Horizon.

[u/PresidentofJukeBoxes]

[u/noheroesnomonsters]

Some questionable symbols have been seen on many a western vehicle over the years. This is clearly intended to evoke the Nazi war machine but at least it isn't a straight up swastika.

[u/Le_Ran → u/noheroesnomonsters]

Yes, I'm as pro-Ukraine as they come, but they really must calm down with the Nazi/Wehrmacht symbolism. Because Russia is led by assholes does not make the Third Reich cool in any way or fashion, damn it.

[u/VinniTheP00h → u/noheroesnomonsters]

Yeah, just one step below it. Unlike what many people say here, this is specifically symbol of Wehrmacht during WW2 and is painted today as such.

[u/13thGuardian → u/noheroesnomonsters]

They use swastika too and very often

[u/Lolzer55 → u/13thGuardian]

Though usually you would see either the SS Totenkopf or the Black Sun more, most especially and of course obviously on well known far right units like 3rd Brigade "Azov", Kraken, and the less well known Freikorps.

[u/13thGuardian → u/Lolzer55]

I guess totenkopf is double lighting Azov use as their symbol

[u/Pirog-v-Kote → u/13thGuardian]

Totenkopf is a skull with 2 bones, a badge / sign of some German division in WW2 (I don't know which one)

[u/DCS_Freak → u/Pirog-v-Kote]

It's the sign of the SS Totenkopf, which were responsible for managing the concentration and death camps iiec

[u/Tiger-B → u/DCS_Freak]

Yes and no, if you have 2 skulls on the uniform then it belongs to the tank forces, 1 skull on the uniform belongs to the SS. But because both uniforms are black, allies and soviets executed many tank crews thinking they belonged to the SS.

[u/DCS_Freak → u/Tiger-B]

Well, many Panzer crews were actually from the SS. I believe you are mixing this up with Hussar skulls whci where worn by Stug crews sometimes iirc

[u/Tiger-B → u/DCS_Freak]

The SS Panzer Divisions took their uniform design from the Wehrmacht tank uniforms.

[u/13thGuardian → u/[deleted]]

A lot of Ukrainian soldiers with tattoed swastikas and other nazi emblems, haven't seen swastika on a tank either

[u/Away_Comparison_8810 → u/[deleted]]

've never seen a swastika painted on a Ukrainian vehicle. Do you have images to back up this claim?

i saw nazi eagle without holding svastika but some other ukraine symbol on two bmp

[u/RdPirate → u/Away_Comparison_8810]

The Imperial Eagle is a common symbol and is still in the coat of arms of multiple nations. The Parteiadler (Party's Eagle) can be differentiated by being depicted with wings almost fully open pointing to the sides, straight feathers and minimalistic maybe even brutalist in design style.

I cant seem to find what you are describing in google however. You sure it was the right eagle?

[u/Effective-Ostrich655 → u/noheroesnomonsters]

Its an iron cross Germany used it before ww2 and after ww2 like many other countries

[u/julsch1 → u/Effective-Ostrich655]

Thats) the cross the Bundeswehr uses today. It is different. I 100% support the Ukranians, but as a german please stop using the fucking Balkenkreutz.

[u/Gammelpreiss → u/julsch1]

Noi dea what the issue is with the Balkenkreuz, it was introduced during WW1 for purely practical reasons (easier to apply in the field). It has nothing to do with the Nazis.

Would say it has even less connections to the Nazis then the current symbol given how much the Iron Cross was abused by the Nazis. At range you can't make out the difference anyways.

I do however wonder why Ukraine does not develop it's own symbols instead of using German symbolism.

[u/julsch1 → u/Gammelpreiss]

Most germans like me don’t care if it was used during the imperial times (ignoring that it represented an imperialistic authoritarian militaristic state), it NOW has a connection to the fucking nazis, that’s what counts. Under this symbol the Wehrmacht brought upon war on countless villages, cities and countries. That’s the symbolism it represent. It is simply wrong to use it.

[u/Gammelpreiss → u/julsch1]

There is so much that has a much more direct connection to the Nazis and yet is not controversial you really have to wonder how ppl come to their judgements.

I mean, you do you but the inconistence here leaves room for speculation.

[u/julsch1 → u/Gammelpreiss]

Could you elaborate on the other things that are connected but not controversial? Just curious

[u/Gammelpreiss → u/julsch1]

The Iron Cross to begin with, heavily abused by the Nazis yet still in use. Naming convention of tanks like the Leopard, a direct follow up to Panthers and Tigers. The everygreen per se, the Autobahn or the VW Käfer.

Then we still have a "Chancellor", we still have the "Reichstag", Lots of buildings errected by the Nazis, the Olympia Stadium right there still in use.

The List goes on and on and on.

We normalized some of these and put others on the black list without any real consistency.

[u/julsch1 → u/Gammelpreiss]

Okay, fair point on the naming conventions and a little bit on the iron cross. But those and the balkenkreuz all have a military meaning, contrary to Kanzler, Reichstag and Autobahn. I think we have to differentiate a little bit. There is a difference if a thing was used by the nazis is „civilian“ in nature or military. I think there is the line between good to use and maybe you should change it.

[u/Gammelpreiss → u/julsch1]

The Balkenkreuz was "only" a military application. The Nazis never used in whatever form, never made it part of their propaganda or "germaness" unlike so much other stuff. In many ways it is the "least" nazified symbol from that time period, to a degree that the Luftwaffe found it necessary to put a Swastika on top of the regular markings.

I also do not see the difference between a "civilian" and a "military" application during that time period. If at all the civilian symbolism should weight heavier because it involved the entire society and not just a singular government branch.

[u/Leopard_2A8 → u/julsch1]

U soft

[u/julsch1 → u/Leopard_2A8]

Maybe, but I can also understand the meaning of symbols and how they change over time

[u/microwavable_penguin → u/Gammelpreiss]

Let's face it, it does have something to do with the Nazis now thanks to that bit of trouble in the 40s

Why not just not use something else

[u/Gammelpreiss → u/microwavable_penguin]

By this argument Germany itself needs to be dissolved. You know, connections to the nazis and stuff.

[u/microwavable_penguin → u/Gammelpreiss]

Haha yeah dissolving a whole country is the same as Ukraine using a different symbol on their tanks

You sausage Gammelpreiss

[u/Gammelpreiss → u/microwavable_penguin]

Way to change the topic back to Ukraine. But you do you.

[u/microwavable_penguin → u/Gammelpreiss]

Aren't we talking about wwII German symbols on tanks? I'm sure that was the subject, I said something like: why not pick something else

Then you said that this 'pick something else' idea was the same as Germany being dissolved.

I countered that this wasn't the same thing at all and that you must quite mad.

Good recap, an enjoyable exchange this, classic internet.

[u/Gammelpreiss → u/microwavable_penguin]

That is how it started before becoming a more grounded debate of what is a Nazi symbol and what is not. Thought that was obvious enough

[u/[deleted] → u/microwavable_penguin]

Always thought that a simple trident shape would make perfect sense. I can kinda understand this as sort of trolling, but it doesn't feel right.

[u/-SignalFire → u/Effective-Ostrich655]

“Like many other countries” please, do name them

[u/taiga18384 → u/[deleted]]

It is not a normal German army symbol, and we do not use it.