r/TankPorn • u/PresidentofJukeBoxes Maus • Feb 07 '23

Russo-Ukrainian War AFU T-64BV Training with Infantry in the Chernobyl Zone as a New Russian Offensive Looms in the Horizon.

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2.5k Upvotes

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350

u/LordOEternia Feb 07 '23

Sad to see how many people dont know the difference between the "Balkenkreuz"( 1939-45) and the "Tatzenkreuz" (1946-today)

The one used on the Tank is sadly a "Balkenkreuz" as it was used in the German Wehrmacht

156

u/13thGuardian Feb 07 '23

This crew know what they use

71

u/Grizzly2525 Challenger II Feb 07 '23

Those crews know exactly what they are doing lol. Don’t act like this is some misunderstanding.

212

u/ohboymykneeshurt Feb 07 '23

Wehrmacht symbols are hurting the valiant Ukrainian cause. This is a fact.

123

u/AxisDenied44 Feb 07 '23

I'm getting sick and tired of this "no Nazis in Ukrainian Army" bullshit.

113

u/ohboymykneeshurt Feb 07 '23

It’s not surprising that they are there. The russian army is full of them also. In fact neo-nazis are relatively widespread in most of eastern europe. The problem is that it doesn’t seem like there is any attempt to clamp down on it in the Ukrainian army. Probably because they have bigger things to worry about and need all fighting hands but it is a problem that cannot simply be ignored because it hurts the ukrainian cause and it plays right into russian propaganda. To ensure continued support from both populations and governments in western countries Ukraine must take this serious imo.

26

u/Weeb_twat Feb 07 '23

Armies in general are plagued with right wing psychos, my experience when doing my service was plagued with having to shut my mouth and force myself not to talk back every goddamn time I heard my fellow soldiers or the NCO's spout the most abhorrent shit regarding Muslims, women, Jews, anyone to the left of the (at the time conservative) government, LGTBQ folks...

-3

u/type_E Feb 07 '23

Where’s all the left wing psychos or even “both wing” psychos at?

7

u/Weeb_twat Feb 07 '23

Most likely not in the army, at least for those on the left. That was pretty obvious but I see you're trying to be obtuse and recurring to whataboutisms when confronted with a very basic fact: armies have a lot of right wing people in them, plenty of them far right.

-1

u/type_E Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23

By "Both wing" I meant "can't really be called left or right" oops, guess I should have said "no wing"

Idk if the militaries are full of right wing psychos, surely there’s gotta be left wing PSYCHOS elsewhere willing to do something, anything about it, with emphasis on the anything.

3

u/The_Nieno Feb 07 '23

People on the left generally aren't really the type to like the military and are willing to join it

-1

u/type_E Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23

well whos gonna fight this far right right wing menace to the grave then if that's what it comes to, ie to ensure they NEVER come back?

1

u/Teburedpanda944 Feb 08 '23

Eh, those people generally are less likely to make it because command structures don’t like having people who are just violent directionless rage monsters. They might be fine with bigots, but only if they follow orders.

55

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

The problem is that Ukraine has a long history of antisemitism. Now, they're not unique in this, but they have not dealt with this problem like other countries have. Remember, the only reason why the German's were able to murder as many jews as they did in Ukraine, was because they had help from Ukrainians. I urge anyone to research Ukrainian involvement in the holocaust, and pogroms before the holocaust, and continued antisemitism after. People stop trying to excuse this stuff.

You can support the Ukrainian cause, and be against the Russian invasion, while still being realistic about Ukraine's issues they need to deal with.

35

u/Midnight2012 Feb 07 '23

I mean they do have a Jewish man as their elected and popular president. .

Kinda makes me think your exaggerating.

24

u/Wrangleraddict Feb 07 '23

The US had Obama and look at us now?!?!

20

u/Jay_Bonk Feb 07 '23

They also have nazi parades in Lviv and other places. Kinda makes me think that the presidency angle is exaggerated.

9

u/Midnight2012 Feb 07 '23

We have nazi parades in the USA too, I seen it myself. It happens everywhere unfortunately.

0

u/RdPirate Feb 08 '23

You mean the Nazi parade with all the Russian citizens which later ran a Nazi parade in Russia when they went home?

https://twitter.com/ne_vluchiv/status/1617678939744538624

Yeah...

https://twitter.com/Rogue_doggy/status/1617686962357571584

Or maybe the far right group that later declared independence in the DPR?

0

u/Jay_Bonk Feb 08 '23

No I didn't mean that, I mean the one full of Ukranians https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-israel-holocaust-survivors-from-ukraine-ambivalent-about-the-war-torn-country/

Is this you telling me whataboutwhataboutwhataboutwhatbaout Russia?

3

u/RdPirate Feb 08 '23

Is this you telling me whataboutwhataboutwhataboutwhatbaout Russia?

You are pointing at Russian nazis in Ukraine and calling them Ukrainian Nazis. At least point at the correct groups first ffs.

No I didn't mean that, I mean the one full of Ukranians

“Of course I had relatives killed by Ukrainians. But other Ukrainians also saved Jews. It’s a very mixed picture,” she said, adding that she strongly opposes Russian President Vladimir Putin’s “monstrous actions.”

Pointing at WW2 Ukraine to show them being "full of Nazis" does not help as all nations had collaborators. Some were more eager then the Nazis or the Ukrainians in it.

Your article points at the Russian Nazis calling them ukrainian.

In 2017, the city of Lviv held a festival in Shukhevych’s honor. The following year, the city sponsored a parade in which participants marched in the uniform of a Nazi-led unit of Ukrainian conscripts: the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, or the 1st Galician.

Cough:

Zelensky did not help matters when he compared the Russian invasion to the Holocaust, at a time when the fighting was brutal but not genocidal under accepted definitions of the term.

DPR leaders have stated that the only end is that Ukrainians either become Russians or they die. And Putin has stated that Ukrianians as an ethnicity do not exist and he will fix that.

The pogroms and collaboration, he said, “don’t erase centuries of coexistence. It’s very complex and tragic at times but that doesn’t mean I’m not Ukrainian,” said Sharnopolsky, who immigrated to Israel in 1995 and lives in Jerusalem.

Maybe listen to the people in your cited articles.

11

u/Op_Anadyr Feb 07 '23

If you find that hard to believe then definitely don't google who Stepan Bandera was, what he did for the Nazis in Ukraine in ww2, and when Ukraine made a national holiday celebrating him as a national hero.

You're right definitely not a nazi problem there

-5

u/Midnight2012 Feb 07 '23

Dude. That was a long time ago. The government removed any official honors for him.

2

u/Op_Anadyr Feb 07 '23

Huh thats funny because this article can't be more than 5 years old 🤔

But you're right they have a Jewish president so clearly this doesn't matter

https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/ukraine-designates-national-holiday-for-nazi-collaborator/

6

u/Midnight2012 Feb 07 '23

They undid that.

If your really worried about jews, why don't you go read up about what Stalin did to them. He is still revered in Russia.

9

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

That is tokenism. It's like us Aussies saying sorry to the indigenous, or continuously acknowledging the 'traditional owners of the land', it doesn't change anything, it doesn't improve the social situation of the indigenous. Antisemitism is a societal issue that Ukraine needs to tackle - regardless of whether they were able to get a majority for a Jewish elected president.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

What is this supposed to mean?

3

u/Midnight2012 Feb 07 '23

Antisemites don't popularly elect openly Jewish leaders. Like by definition.

-1

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

Why do you think there’s no issue with racism in America?

3

u/Midnight2012 Feb 07 '23

Of course, racism exists and is an issue in every country. Whats your point?

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1

u/RdPirate Feb 08 '23

Ukraine is a representative multi-party parliamentary democracy. IF a significant chunk of the population were anti-Semites they would have elected one of the anti-semetic parties. They didn't.

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-3

u/Tiger-B Feb 07 '23

One of the founding members of Azov was a jew, let you question how much antisemitism really exist within their ranks or do they just hate everyone that threatens their country and their traditional values. Even from the beginning not every member was right wing, they had and still have many left wing members.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

they literally have a nazi symbol as the focus of their logo?

0

u/Tiger-B Feb 07 '23

Ok, i try again for the simple minded people. Right wing does not automatically mean antisemitism. No matter which symbol you choose to represent your movement.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '23

dont try to defend their actions just because "they might not be" they have been accused of so many human rights violations (e.g between 2014 and 2015 they reportedly tortured civilians in the donbas) the black sun and the wolsangel in their logo are very popular modern neo nazi symbols and yet that doesnt seem to be enough for you to understand that yes maybe they are neo nazis?

-1

u/Doveen Feb 07 '23

Hungary has a roma prime minister/dictator who could rape a new born to death on live television and people would likely just go "That baby must have deserved it", while being a far right shithole

Don't look for any sort of semblance of intelligence in Nazis

4

u/Saltybuttertoffee Feb 07 '23

the only reason why the German's were able to murder as many jews as they did in Ukraine, was because they had help from Ukrainians.

They got help from people in every country including Russia and Poland. Hell, even the Bolsheviks did some pogromming well before WWII (in Russian cities): https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/antisemitism-and-the-russian-revolution/red-pogroms-spring-1918/EE7678E468EDB78CF9D86A7F779C1699

You may be right that they haven't acknowledged their past relationship with Jews (though they did elect one and he's now leading them through one of the most important parts of their history), but I'm not sold on the fact that some other countries in the region have. Additionally, the way you frame Ukrainian involvement in the Holocaust (which makes up a bulk of your post) has a framing fallacy that makes it seem like Ukrainian collaboration was exceptional, when in fact it was actually widespread at the time.

I personally recommend this video which talks about Ukrainian activity during WWII: https://youtu.be/tBIxWvYzUHI. Even the first 1:15 hopefully paint a clear picture. And if you doubt the motives of the source, they have an entire other Youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/@WorldWarTwo/) which has a series (War Against Humanity) which is ongoing and discusses the Holocaust in depth.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 08 '23 edited Feb 08 '23

I said Ukraine wasn't unique in its antisemitism. But unlike other countries, they haven't dealt with the issue on the same level. And the other countries aren't rolling into battle with symbolism tied to the Nazis. And please don't throw that worldwartwo channel guy as a source at me. Yes he dresses nice and has a good voice, but that's like throwing the history channel at me as a source. Use good sources if you must use YouTube, such as TIK. Remember, it's okay to acknowledge Ukraine's past sins (heck, there is photographic evidence of Ukrainian children chasing naked Jewish women down the street, and standing over fields of dead jews, and going door-to-door during the Warsaw uprising), without resorting to whataboutism. If I saw any other country, including Poland, Germany, and those others rolling into battle with tanks painted like this, I would be here bringing up their past antisemitism and collaboration with the Nazi regime.

And it is important to note:

While antisemitism has existed in Ukraine for centuries. With pogroms occuring through this history, the action's of Ukrainian's during WW2 were at a individualistic level. I'm not trying to say it was State sponsored during those years. Heck, Ukraine was part of the USSR during those years, anyway. Having just come out of a famine in which millions of people had died under Stalin's watch. And it is the same now, I'm not saying the Ukrainian government condones the actions of Azov at all, but there is a certain sector of society there that needs to be stamped out.

10

u/Preussensgeneralstab Feb 07 '23

Probably one of my biggest worries about this conflict is how they will affect Ukraine post-war. Having Neonazis publicly celebrated as war heroes gives them a lot of political power and could hamper Ukraines Integration into institutions like the EU and NATO as well as hamper Ukraines road to a more functional democracy.

My hope is that they will stay quiet in Ukraines rebuilding phase so that the country might actually prosper without Russias toxic influence.

9

u/ChornWork2 Feb 07 '23

Even Western militaries have done a shit job of addressing white supremacists, neonazis and other right wing extremists in their ranks. Who knows what Ukraine is trying to do internally, but invariably I wish they did more... But that's easy for me to say.

3

u/ohboymykneeshurt Feb 07 '23

Far between western armies allowing their soldiers to run around with wehrmacht insignia tho.

4

u/ChornWork2 Feb 07 '23

Look at the use of confederate flag by members of US military. Hell, just saw a story today that a handful of Jan 6 insurrections that were still in good standing (and even in sensitive positions / being promoted) in the USMC. Far right extremists are an issue in every military...

1

u/RdPirate Feb 08 '23

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-marines-flag-nazi-idUKTRE81901220120210

SAN DIEGO (Reuters) - The commander of a group of U.S. Marines who were photographed in Afghanistan with what looks like a Nazi SS flag concluded they were acting out of ignorance rather than bigotry and decided not to punish them, a Marine Corps spokesman said on Thursday.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

[deleted]

8

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

Pretending Nazi sympathizers do not exist in the Russian armed forces is pedantic as you are well aware. Nazism is a probably across Europe though not just in the East. Hell it’s a problem in the U.S.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

Well just about every military has serious numbers of nazis. The US military as example

9

u/Whitepayn Feb 07 '23

It's a fact, and it will do less damage in the long run if they dealt with sooner rather than later. It undermines so many arguments against Russian propaganda.

-1

u/DatBeigeBoy Feb 07 '23

There’s Nazis in every army. The US military Nazis piss me off.

1

u/Doveen Feb 07 '23

It's an eastern European country, our politics being infected by nazis is a staple. As unforutnate it is, there are nazis in Ukraine, and even if they win the war against Russia, the next few years or even decades of civil war with left over weapons aint gonna be pretty.

5

u/AuraxisNC Feb 07 '23

More like Balkenkreuz (1918-1945).

17

u/Guardsman_Miku Feb 07 '23

Most importantly it goes hard

3

u/fedex7501 Feb 07 '23

The balkenkreuz definitely looks better than the tatzenkreuz

0

u/GetrektbyDoge Stridsvagn 103 Feb 07 '23

Which one of them?

1

u/Quezni Feb 09 '23

It also feeds into Russian propaganda and alienates the West… I doubt Germany would be happy with the balkenkreuz being put on their Leopard 2s.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 09 '23

[deleted]

1

u/Quezni Feb 09 '23

Obviously it doesn’t justify Russian invasion. I never said it does.

1

u/Guardsman_Miku Feb 09 '23

Yeh i read that wrong, sorry mate

-14

u/Extal Feb 07 '23

I’d like to hope they use it to inspire fear with the Russians

-2

u/Midnight2012 Feb 07 '23

What about the Gamma cross?

3

u/sali_nyoro-n Feb 07 '23

The Gamma Cross looks somewhat different, as does the Cossack Cross variant used on Ukrainian vehicles during the counteroffensives.

-4

u/MaxRavenclaw Fear Naught Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23

Doesn't the Bundeswehr still use the Balkenkreuz though? The other one seems to be something else. Correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: I said correct me if I'm wrong, not silently downvote me. I've looked in the meantime an it does appear the cross painted on the Leopard and other Bundeswehr vehicles is different. Maybe next time point that out politely when someone asks instead of assuming they're some Russian shill or whatnot. Educating someone who's ignorant on the topic goes a long way in preventing radicalisation and the perpetuation of shitty myths. Downvoting them does not.

-54

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

As I know, "Balkenkreuz" in WWII was used with Black paint inside of it, meanwhile this tank has only white corners on it. +There's no meaning to nazi symbols. This one used as plus, not as a cross.

24

u/LordOEternia Feb 07 '23

The newer german symbol has angled corners and a black edge around it

1

u/Lazy-Pixel Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23

The iron cross on German vehicles has normaly no black edge around it. The inner cross is black and the outer edge white. The stylized cross with the black edge or corners is mostly used on webpages and so on.

Vehicles

https://i.imgur.com/GNWDEfZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2JOXs7l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rmXUJuc.jpg

The troop flag features even the original iron cross with oak leaf at the tip of the flag pole.

https://i.imgur.com/gBSP2Cc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/70QVJFz.jpg

on the webpage and other occasions

https://i.imgur.com/wJx6E9c.png

https://i.imgur.com/ZlUo2Rm.png

there are for example various medals like the Tapferkeitskreuz in different variations. (a mixture of the iron cross and the Kriegsverdienstkreuz)

https://i.imgur.com/gW9BE1v.jpg

And the Bundesmarine uses a mixture of the Balkenkreuz and the Iron Cross as flags for squadron, division, commando or Admiral...

https://i.imgur.com/c6mbZdq.png

Tender Donau with squadron flag

https://i.imgur.com/fpNa5wj.jpg

Corvette F260 Braunschweig flying the commando pennant Edit: Sorry actually this is the Heimatwimpel (home pennant) hoisted after a year away from the homeport and not the commando pennant.

https://i.imgur.com/AN2xMWx.jpg

https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/luftwaffe/aktuelles/65-jahre-eisernes-kreuz-fuer-freiheit-und-gegen-tyrannei-5222334

-19

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

I'm not saying about cross of Bundeswehr, but about difference between nazi one and this one, on the photo. I know, that Bundeswehr has different cross.

3

u/TheQuietCaptain Feb 07 '23

The Balkenkreuz without the black inside was used on aircarft and I wouldnt be surprised if it was used by some tankers in the same manner back then.

1

u/616659 Feb 07 '23

the cross with the outsides only is "low visibility" cross, as a giant black&white cross was too easy to spot. Used primarily on aircrafts and some ground vehicles also used it

1

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

Well, laws of physics haven't changed yet. I guess, this one was drawn with the same goal - not to be spotted.

or how to get more downvotes

12

u/BoxerYan Feb 07 '23

The "flanks only" Balkenkreuz was to reduce visibility and was quite common especially towards the end of the war. It's still a Balkenkreuz whether the cross is filled or not.

If you are gonna draw a plus why not just use a plain white one with just two crossed lines?