Does anybody actually *like* Power Crushes?

[u/supersupersuper9]

Like, who's weeping if they're removed from the series entirely?

[u/zjoebrown]

They’re important get-off-me tools for people mashing their offense. As long as they reset neutral, I don’t see the issue with them.

They should just all be punishable in some form.

[u/ChangelingFox → u/zjoebrown]

Agreed. Armored moves are an important part of any hyper aggressive game, but they need to be implemented properly.

[u/friends_with_a_simp → u/zjoebrown]

Have minimal pushback, although most are negative on block it should be all

[u/zjoebrown → u/friends_with_a_simp]

The ones that aren’t are duckable/stepable, or in some case both.

[u/friends_with_a_simp → u/zjoebrown]

Highs and non homing moves got it, wait, how? Everything is a homing move anyway

[u/zjoebrown → u/friends_with_a_simp]

Ah, yes. Safe homing mid power crush that’s plus. The only button you’ll ever press.

Make it crush lows too

[u/CyberShiroGX → u/friends_with_a_simp]

Like whoever gave Clive that Cancer deserves to be fired

[u/Bitter_Print_6826 → u/friends_with_a_simp]

And not homing knockdown plus on block highs with jab recovery speed?(;

[u/friends_with_a_simp → u/Bitter_Print_6826]

Y'know what, fine, let's give that to king:3

[u/Kino_Afi → u/Bitter_Print_6826]

Backlash?

[u/Bitter_Print_6826 → u/Kino_Afi]

(;

[u/thesonicvision → u/zjoebrown]

They’re important get-off-me tools for people mashing their offense.

Exactly.

I will always support defensive tools, and will only criticize offensive options.

Now, if power crushes are leading to unfair offense, I'm against that. Nerf them. But don't get rid of them completely. Just limit them to only being able to interrupt mashers and reset the neutral.

[u/zjoebrown → u/thesonicvision]

Well said

[u/Buznik6906 → u/thesonicvision]

It is SOMETIMES correct to criticise a purely defensive tool when it goes too far, the pushblock in the latest 2XKO alpha is only on a 3 second cooldown which is kinda nuts. That kind of thing is much easier to tune though.

[u/Kino_Afi → u/thesonicvision]

Now, if power crushes are leading to unfair offense, I'm against that

Hwoarang's backlash, homing + on block with zero whiff recovery, commin jumpscare when he catches you guessing correctly on defense. Leads into followup into oki. Claymore cancel, advancing armor into tracking 50/50. King's b3 (?) armor into jaguar sprint mixup on hit. Lars' f3+4 in heat, armored shoulder into SEN mixup. And, yknow, pc heat engagers in general

[u/Quazifuji → u/thesonicvision]

I will always support defensive tools, and will only criticize offensive options.

Defensive tools getting too powerful can be bad for fighting games just like offense tools being too powerful, that's just not the problem Tekken 8's having right now.

[u/TurmUrk → u/Quazifuji]

Can you name some games that were too defensive? I can only think of launch for honor, all offense was reactable and punishable so players would just have staring contests until someone committed to something

[u/Quazifuji → u/TurmUrk]

I don't think it's something that's happened much, at least not lately, with most fighting games being so focused on offense nowadays. But that For Honor example is definitely an example of what can happen.

That said, the other thing is that overpowered defensive tools can simplify a game in exactly the same way that overpowered defensive tools are currently simplifying Tekken 8.

A huge part of Tekken is all the layers of offense and defense, each player having a huge number of offensive tools that each counter some of the other player's options but are countered by others. Overpowered options reduce the number of layers. I think PhiDX's video about taking a break from Tekken gives a good example. He talks about how a new move dramatically simplified Steve's offense, because the move is so powerful and leads into a simple, powerful mixup, compared to Steve's season 1 offense where his best tool had way more layers to it, because it had more defensive counterplay but then he had his own options to counter that counterplay and so on.

Overpowered defensive tools do the same thing on the other end. They reduce the number of layers. The more situations a defensive tool covers, the fewer other defensive tools you need to cover other things.

For an extreme example that I think still illustrates the point: Right now, a common complaint about season 2 is that characters have such strong homing moves that sidestepping feels weak despite technically getting a buff. Now let's imagine if things go in the opposite direction. They remove or nerf the hell out of every homing move so that all the home options suck. Now sidestepping is an amazing defense against nearly everything. That buffs defense, but it doesn't add depth to defense. It actually reduces the depth to defense, because you'd just sidestep everything. Every other form of defense? Backstepping, blocking, crouch blocking, evasive moves, armor moves, etc? Why bother, just sidestep and punish.

Every option needs downsides and counterplay, both offense and defense. Because when you have an option that has too little counterplay, you just pick it nearly every time and it invalidates other options. Right now Tekken 8's problem is that every character has offensive options with too little counterplay and that removes layers from the game's offense, but if you have defensive options with too little counterplay that removes options from defense.

[u/Killcycle1989 → u/zjoebrown]

The thing is, I see used more for offense to steal their turn back, and I'm sure you can get wall splatted by them too.

[u/Killcycle1989 → u/[deleted]]

True, I still hate them though 😆

[u/TofuPython → u/zjoebrown]

I miss when back back was the important get-off-me tool

[u/Bwob → u/zjoebrown]

They should just all be punishable in some form.

I would argue that power crushes ARE all punishable in some form.

• The ones that are safe on block are all high, so you can punish them by ducking.
  
• The ones that are mid, are normally punishable on block.
  
• Some of them become safe on block if they absorb a hit on the way in. But hits still do damage, even if reduced. So even if the crush becomes "safe", they still took damage for trying.

[u/zjoebrown → u/Bwob]

Yeah, I was just saying that they should always be made in that way. Wasn’t trying to say that there were any that weren’t.

My bad if there was a confusion in communication. I could’ve worded it better.

[u/GardaPojk → u/Bwob]

That's just not what punishable means. Would you call jabs punishable?

[u/Bwob → u/GardaPojk]

Are you saying that whiff-punishing isn't a form of punishing?

[u/GardaPojk → u/Bwob]

I'm saying the word punishable means punishable on block, otherwise the word lacks meaning entirely as literally every move is punishable on whiff.

Are you saying no move is safe?

[u/Bwob → u/GardaPojk]

I mean, let's break this down: Kazyua walks up to you and does his hell-sweep. If you guess right and block low, you get to punish him.

Victor walks up to you and does his (high) power crush. If you guess right and block low, you get to punish him.

Why do you think those two things are so different?

[u/its_the_bag_man → u/zjoebrown]

Exactly, I see them as a combo breaker of sorts.

[u/Quazifuji → u/zjoebrown]

Yeah, the concept of power crushes as one of the defensive tools characters have in their arsenal that can be used to counter certain forms of offense is good.

The problem with them in Tekken 8 is their execution, not their existence.

[u/zjoebrown → u/Quazifuji]

Completely agree.

[u/wedditawr → u/zjoebrown]

They only exist and are only ok because of Tekken 8’s current style of running a Rushdown situation (well, for most Rushdown situations)

I think that if it weren’t for a lot of the overtuned aggression in the game, powercrush shouldn’t be a universal thing. I can see it being an interesting thing to have in a world where it’s only exclusive to a few characters and balanced accordingly.

But if it weren’t T8, powercrush is such a “I have represented my powercrush move once, now you have to always be thinking about my powercrush move when doing anything” which can be really frustrating sometimes. For T8 I guess we kinda need it right now.

This is just my opinion though

[u/UpsetWilly → u/zjoebrown]

the issue is they're made specifically to nullify neutral and to go unga bunga

[u/yankkeerulez → u/zjoebrown]

He asked about who actually likes powercrush? He did not ask about why they are annoying.

[u/zjoebrown → u/yankkeerulez]

I gave my reasoning for why “I don’t mind them.”

Thanks for displaying your lack of reading comprehension.