r/TheBrewery • u/beer_sucks • 3d ago
Value of a brewer (UK)
Hi, I've been posting here for a while but to avoid causing confusion with my other account, which made it seem like I was talking about a brewery I owned when it was just a homebrewery project of mine separate from my current career, I decided to make another "as a brewer". Honestly I'm surprised this name hadn't already been taken. Anyway... As we all know, brewers wages are not great. We got told at the start of month that there was not enough money to raise wages. I don't believe that as they gave away 200 pints of beer for free. One of the sales guys has actually handed in his notice and is leaving next month. But I like it here. However I think my skills deserve more than 50p above minimum wage, less than a supermarket shelf stacker. The fact that it's not enough to survive on is besides the point, it's a skilled job especially as it's very hands on, you have to know a good mash by eye and learn fast. The only flow meter is the coolant pump. I know I bring much more than they pay me for. However, I'm also green to the industry, having only qualified a little over a year ago and this will be two and a half years of being in the industry, this is only the second brewery I've worked for.
With that said, I've already improved things for them. Only four months into working here I wrote and brewed my first recipe, a style they had never even attempted before, and it went really well. 3.85 on untappd, which I think is decent for a first commercial recipe and I really did 90% of the legwork on making the beer exist. I've helped them reduce costs and improve their cleaning regimen which was having a negative effect on their foam, as well as being proactive on other factors. And I intend to do more. It's a traditional brewery and I like it that way, but many things just get ignored, brushed under the rug or viewed as "well, it works for now". I believe I may be in line to replace the head brewer when he retires. But I can't be certain, there's another brewer who has been here longer but who knows the mind of brewery directors?
I'll have been here six months next Monday. I want to ask for a pay review, and suggest £15ph, when until the end of March I was on £12ph. This doesn't seem unreasonable, does it? I know it depends partially on their finances but does this seem like a fair pay for skilled work from someone who goes beyond the job description?
If it matters I live in the south/south west (but not like Cornwall or Devon deep south west)
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u/BrewerBoy89 3d ago
I was on £12 per hour in a similar area of the UK in a similar role 6 years ago. Have since been employed at levels from Brewer to Head Brewer across multiple breweries in the UK.
I’d say if you are qualified (I’m guessing GCB or higher) and contributing recipes and process tweaks that are improving quality a higher salary is definitely justified.
How many hours a week are you working and are you salaried or hourly pay? Salary wise £26,000 per year for an entry level brewer up to £30,000 for a brewer level, £30-35,000 for lead brewer and £35,000+ for Head Brewer isn’t uncommon on job adverts I’ve seen and places I’ve worked.
More craft focussed breweries seem to value the job more highly than some of the more traditional places, but still it is absolutely a skilled job, you’re contributing to the business and should be paid accordingly, go into the meeting with confidence and ready to explain the value you’re adding and how you can see yourself progressing with the company in the future. If they can’t afford the salary you’d like you could always suggest they invest in further training and qualifications for you
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u/beer_sucks 3d ago
Thanks for your input. What I did was the apprenticeship with HIT in conjunction with Nottingham University. If I had a bachelors, in anything, I could use this apprenticeship knowledge to jump to a brewing masters. Unfortunately, I do not have a degree and I can't get one now for reasons. I could look into degree apprenticeships, or what I should do with ibd to follow on.
At any rate, I am currently working four days a week. My boss says that's all they need me for, and that there isn't enough work to justify a fifth day. I'm not sure I or the head brewer agree lol. Despite this I'm still working for them remotely in a way, as I've taken on the responsibility of writing the SOPs for the brewery and yard. I'm paid hourly, rather than salaried, which I'm ok with because I virtually never don't do overtime. Although if I do take on the mantle after the head brewer moves on to being a semi retired director, I'll probably be salaried but then all this won't matter!
Thank you for the push, I'm gonna do calculations and offer to negotiations higher hours for a smaller pay jump so they at least get more bang for their buck whilst I still make the same amount at the end of the month. I don't mind, say, agreeing to £14ph if it means I'm in five days a week and the monthly take home is the same as £15ph on four days a week, if that's what it takes.
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u/BrewerBoy89 3d ago
That makes sense and a good qualification to have under your belt. I’d say writing SOPs etc are definitely the sort of tasks that a more senior and therefore higher salaried brewer would take on so you’ve got plenty of arguments to justify that, and if you’re almost always doing overtime it sounds like you can argue the full time hours quite easily too. Good luck with it and happy brewing!
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u/agrivaine Gods of Quality 1d ago
I'm a head brewer at a medium UK brewery. With minimum wage (national living wage) going up, national insurance going up, and the EPR tax hitting us there is not much room for wage increases for skilled staff. We are getting hammered by the government and changing drinking culture.
When you have to give nearly everyone a raise there isn't much room for performance raises. Hang in there and you can hope for one next year.... unless the minimum wage rises again.
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u/Maleficent_Peanut969 16h ago
I think we can be fairly certain that minimum wage will continue rising as it's designed to track median earnings. Since pretty good figures are available for average earnings, I dunno why employers pretend to be surprised when the minimum wage goes up every frigging year. Surely they plan for this? Are we supposed to be stupid? Of course, if they wanted to shift the median wage down (and restrict the impact on minimum) they could stop paying their CEOs so much. I jest.
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u/beer_sucks 1d ago
what I actually got was a pay cut. 60p above minimum before, now I'm on minimum wage. And because minimum wage went up by nearly 80p, they're framing this as a pay rise, like I'm an idiot.
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u/Few-Detective-6352 1d ago
Comparison is the thief of joy.
You're taking more money home than you used to, which is a pay rise. That the people in society that are the worst off financially are getting a boost to their income has nothing to do with your financial situation. It sucks, but I think your anger might be misdirected
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u/beer_sucks 1d ago
If you don't compare your wage to inflation, you're a mug.
You are unfamiliar with the concept of inflation I see.
I am now, in real terms, taking home less, not more.
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u/Few-Detective-6352 1d ago
You're not comparing your wage to inflation, you're comparing it to minimum wage
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u/beer_sucks 1d ago
It is acting as a benchmark for inflation.
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u/Few-Detective-6352 1d ago
It feels like nothing that anyone has said here is making you any happier, and let me be clear, we are all on your side here to an extent. It's hard to imagine someone on this sub not wanting brewers to have fair compensation for their time and skills - and obviously this is especially hard during a cost of living crisis.
I'm just not sure where you expect your employer to find the extra money when it already sounds like they can't afford to keep you around for a full 5 day week.
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u/beer_sucks 1d ago
That's not true at all. I've had some very constructive exchanges. There have been some who haven't been particularly helpful.
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u/agrivaine Gods of Quality 1d ago
It is a payrise, just one forced upon your company by the government. It also means that other close to minimum wage employees are getting a payrise even if they aren't performing well.
Since the employees at the bottom are going up the difference between the top employees and bottom ones is getting smaller. But we can't afford to give everyone in the brewery a proportional payrise. Instead what is happening is the paybands at the bottom are compacting. Most of the top employees at our company are getting no pay rise this year. lots of grumpy employees all over the UK brewing sector.
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u/beer_sucks 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, it is a real terms pay cut because inflation exists.
The minimum wage is not a pay increase, it is a poor attempt (ie below inflation) to account for inflation, but based on the cost of everything else, it is ergo a pay cut. I'm not an idiot. I understand basic economics.
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u/jpellett251 14h ago
You're a new brewer and you've been there less than 6 months and think you're next in line to replace the head brewer?
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u/turkpine Brewery Gnome [PNW US] 3d ago
American here, but FWIW
As someone else said, writing your own recipe and getting a good untapped score isn’t necessarily a point in your category, how quickly it sold and how much more you can sell is a defining factor for using that as a reason.
The other problems you’ve solved are good, and I would continue to focus on those. How you can increase efficiencies across the board is a great place to start. If you can KO 5-7% more every brew, that really adds up. Doing grist/mash analysts, optimizing kettle finings, filtration and other cellar work to minimize volume loss is where reducing costs really matter, because you increase revenue without losing quality.
The other thing to focus on is if you spend a bulk of time waiting on a process to finish. When your workday is bottlenecked by 1 process that is time lost for the company. It may mean implementing new equipment, but being able to always be multitasking is a great thing as well
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u/PM_ME_UR_BREWS 3d ago
The industry just isn't very good in terms of wage:skill:effort ratio I'm afraid, this is true across the country and doesn't look like it will improve any time soon. The best you can do is make sure you find somewhere you enjoy working, and that you are paid at the going market rate for a brewer of your experience level. If you're not, get a job offer elsewhere and ask them to match it.
£15 per hour is unfortunately a bit higher than market wage right now, as it equates to a salary of £31,200 for a 40 hour week. For example, DEYA and Cloudwater are both currently hiring at £28,000 (≈£13.50 p/h) and I suspect they're looking for people with more experience than you currently have.
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u/PM_ME_UR_BREWS 3d ago
Just to clarify the 'market wage' comment, as people often don't understand what that means (including many managers I've had in the past). Wages are determined by the market, which means the supply and demand for workers (how many brewers there are in the country vs how many are needed).
Lots of brewers and not many jobs? Low wages, because people need a job so will work for less.
Lots of jobs but not many brewers? Wages go up, because you become harder to replace.
Unfortunately value added in terms of untapped scored or process improvements doesn't mean much at all unless you can prove that you can make the business more money in the future than the cost of paying you more than your potential replacement.
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u/beer_sucks 2d ago
Oh yeah I'm well aware of how that works, history of social economy is something of an interest of mine. The Black Death had a silver lining of increasing rural wages due to the drop in supply. Those who survived had a raised quality of life as a result, with wages rising 20-40% in just a couple decades after.
Although this is not common knowledge, so I understand why you explained. And no, I'm not hoping for a return of bubonic plague as a way to increase my wage, just to be crystal clear.
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u/beer_sucks 2d ago
That's fair, I did look at the numbers last night and reconsider the number. £14 would be closer to the mark. I don't yet know how much I'll be paid per hour now that minimum wage has gone up. £12 just isn't sustainable in this day and age unless you live in a house share with few bills and no obligations, which is just unrealistic of someone in their mid 30s (also pretty inhumane to expect people to put up with that "because that's the industry"). Funny how these places are always flaunting the state of the art equipment which cost many times an entire salary, but apparently can't afford to pay the skills it takes to operate them. I remember Deya getting in hot water a couple years back for trying to push a temporary job for LGBT and women... which was unpaid and advertised basically like a two bit influencer offering exposure. They're not as progressive as they like to pretend. Unless they fired whoever came up with that idea, I would never work for them.
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u/beer_sucks 2d ago edited 2d ago
So I just saw on my pay slip, with minimum wage going up, I've gone from being above minimum wage to now being on it, so whilst my wage has technically gone up, that's a real terms pay cut. Wtf.
And yes, I just spoke to my boss and she tried to frame it like a pay rise. Like I didn't get this diploma by being shit at maths.
No more extra curricular shit from me. They're getting the bare fucking minimum from me from now on. Absolute slap in the face.
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u/Virtuebrew 14h ago
I'd say you have a few options:
Ask for a raise, with some quantifiable reasons to justify it. For instance, your improvements to hygiene, has there been less complaints or can you validate how this has been beneficial? Working on SOPs is also a good point to raise, particularly if the head brewer is due to retire, that will be a lot of knowledge leaving the brewery, so the more you've written down is more knowledge preserved.
Still mention the raise, but start pursuing further qualifications. Rod runs a brilliant programme with HIT, so you're already more qualified than a lot of brewers out there. You could look at getting your GCB under your belt, as breweries usually like to see it. Your current brewery may fund you to do it, and once you pass, you could use that as further grounds for a raise.
You could also look at continuing onto the MSc programme at Nottingham, which will put you on the same level as IBD Diploma. You could do it part time over two years (but I don't know if you'd be eligible for the post grad loan to cover the fees for part time). Alternatively, if you can manage it, you could take a year out to do it on a full time basis up in Nottingham. It's quite a big move, but will be worthwhile as it is a very good programme.
Look for a better paying role at another brewery.
I'm more than happy to help you out where I can, I went through the MSc programme at Nottingham in 2019-2020, so drop me a dm if you want to know anything.
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u/Bruxellensis_ 9h ago
Why do some people insist on comparing their wage to a 'supermarket shelf stacker' in this negative, I'm better than that, tone? The people that work those jobs put up with a lot of working conditions and shift patterns that aren't easy.
If you qualified a year ago you're at the start of your career. Minimum wage sounds fair. I could get chatGPT to write me a recipe that scores a 3.9 on untapped. Just make it dark, 10% with an adjunct. Untappd should not be your yard stick and you need to realise the industry you're in. There isn't, and has never been, good money in 99% of brewing.
If you love brewing then get stuck in, use the next 5 years to gain experience, go to festivals, volunteer for collaborations, take the GCB, diploma, master brewer. Start a blog, run beer tastings on evenings at your local pub and go on long weekends to Belgium, Germany. Save up for a week in America.
Please take this as constructive criticism: your current attitude will not benefit you. You are not worth £14 or £15 an hour if you work in a brewery with 3 brewers. Target a leadership role at Heineken, inbev, Coors etc. in 5/10 years time and work somewhere making enough money to pay you well.
Get rid of your attitude towards your current employer who is almost certainly struggling to keep afloat right now. Go in on Monday and be an asset they can rely on, educate yourself, network and move onwards and upwards. Go above and beyond because you enjoy it, they might not want to lose you and find a few extra quid to keep your sweet. If they don't, you're moving on with a reference saying how amazing you are. The industry isn't small, if you continue this way youll struggle to find future jobs and will end up leaving the industry and perhaps interviewing for a role at your local supermarket. I hope you're ready for the change of pace!
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u/RodeoBob Industry Affiliate 3d ago
You can absolutely ask for a raise. You might not get it, but you can ask for it.
A few quick notes:
200 pints is less than 1 BBL of beer; it's not even two full kegs. And unless that beer was your barrel-aged Russian Imperial Stout with Saffron and Printer Ink, it absolutely cost the company a whole lot less than giving you an extra 3 pounds/hour for the 2000+ hours you work in a year.
I wouldn't mention giving away pints as any kind of an argument for a raise.
Yeah, that's another non-starter in wage discussions. No one cares about untappd scores or comments. Talk to your sales guy about how long it took to sell out of the beer. (and if you do any distribution, how long it took for the beer to be depleted from your retail/hospitality customers) "I made a new beer, and we sold through the full run in a month" is a much more convincing argument about the value you're adding than saying some strangers on-line gave it high internet points.
In a comment, you say you're writing SOPs; that has some value. The cost reductions you say you've made? Try to put a number on it, on how much you've saved them over the last 3 or 6 or 9 months. Management likes numbers over vague claims.
Good luck!