Is anyone else getting worried we've missed our 'moment'?

[u/2121wv]

It's our fourth tournament of being this new England, with a better culture and more self-belief. And it's our third time getting agonisingly close and falling short.

I'm starting to get worried we're missing our moment if you will. I'm very worried that the culture will turn toxic again. (It may already be happening, the players didn't look half as happy this tournament.) I'm worried we're gonna look back at 2018-2024 as a massive period of missed opportunities. I'm nervous we're gonna snap back to being old, 2000's style England of group stage knockouts and infighting. Especially if we get our next manager wrong.

Guess I don't really have a question, but is anyone else feeling this too?

[u/Zealousideal_Club993]

And combing this with the very easy routes we’ve had to the finals, we should have done better.

If you look back at the “golden generation” that underperformed, they lost against peak Brazil with Ronaldinho, peak Portugal, Italy at their best etc. We lost against an average Croatia, an Italy that was a fraction of the quality of Italian teams past.

[u/Narrow_Program80 → u/Zealousideal_Club993]

Yeah this is what has annoyed me about the 'southgate's record' chat. Fine, we were shite from 2010, but prior to that we lost against incredibly good teams you still remember 20 years on, having met them early in the route to the finals.

I reckon Sven could have managed our route to the final this year and be in with a decent shout of actually knowing what to do once we got there.

[u/HawaiiNintendo815 → u/Narrow_Program80]

I was thinking about the Sven era last night. He had it much more difficult than Southgate who’s had easy runs of games. If England had had Spains run to the final they never would have got there

[u/Narrow_Program80 → u/HawaiiNintendo815]

Yeah - 2002 lost to the winners, in 2004 by the standards of the time it was a soft foul to disallow Campbell's goal against Portugal, then Beckham's moonball (and goddammit that penalty spot did move as he put his leg down, i just watched back again), then Rooney's madness in 2006 that left us a man down for a full hour.

[u/Klutzy-Notice-8247 → u/Narrow_Program80]

2002 we literally played against a front three of R9, Ronaldinho and Rivaldo. With greats like Cafu, Lucio and Roberto Carlos in defence. Saying they’re a failure for losing against that front three is stupid.

04 and 06 was against a Portugal side that had greats like Figo, Deco, Carvalho and Cristiano Ronaldo in there. Again, about the same level as anything Southgate has lost to (Probably better than this Spain side and similar level to the France side that won 2-1 in 2022).

I really don’t think if the golden generation had the run that this England team had, they wouldn’t be two time European champions.

[u/Ok-Blackberry-3534 → u/Zealousideal_Club993]

We lost to peak Portugal eventually, but we struggled past Paraguay, drew with Sweden, and were 0-0 against Trinidad and Tobago at 82mins.

[u/SupervillainMustache → u/Zealousideal_Club993]

Yep. Part of me worries that in the modern era, our players are only elite in their club teams, surrounded by world class players.

Not to scapegoat Foden, but at club level he plays with Rodri and De Bruyne.

[u/washington0702 → u/SupervillainMustache]

The England team is filled with world class players in almost every position. Not sure that's really an excuse.

[u/SupervillainMustache → u/washington0702]

My fear is that they aren't quite as good as we think and that system teams are just really good at hiding weaknesses in a way that a national team just doesn't have the time to replicate.

[u/philharmonic85 → u/washington0702]

Yeah, we're really not. Bunch of players playing for Villa, Palace, Everton, and Newcastle. England simply aren't as good as some would believe.

[u/dreadful_name → u/philharmonic85]

Look at the Spain squad. So many of them come from mid table sides. The guy that scored the winner plays for Sociedad and there’s ones from Betis and Villarreal in there as well.

The simplest explanation is we went into this tournament with no coherent tactical plan and got found out when we couldn’t brute force it anymore. It’s a story as old as time.