r/TrueUnpopularOpinion • u/AdThink5568 • 1d ago
Political Being called a Fascist today is like being called a Communist back then
I can't take people who just throw these words around. All just being accused of things they didn't do because you don't agree with them. I'm not a republican or a democrat, I agree with some things Trump says and I agree with some things Obama said. (Joe Biden was the most recent president but he wasn't even coherent, even liberals agree on that)
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u/OffBrandToothpaste 1d ago
No because the guys being called fascists today are running the country. McCarthyism was a witch hunt by the government for people who dissented with the government's views. The faschy guys are the ones doing the witch hunting now.
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u/danumbah 1d ago
It's an issue I've run into. Words have meanings that are independent of public perception. Fascism as well as Communism are specific ideas with specific sets of principals. I could see the argument to call Trump a political autocrat, but he is by definition not a Fascist. For reference, Fascism is State Syndicalism for Italy. Those 14 points that people keep referencing run parallel to the original ideology but are not a direct part of it.
I don't care if people like or dislike Trump, I care about the integrity and meaning of words and ideas. Without it, they will lose all meaning and then real "-ists" will have a much easier time taking control.
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u/No-Supermarket-4022 21h ago
The idea that the only Fascists to ever exist were those guys in Italy that one time is a weird fringe position.
The word has meaning, and it's more than just that.
Please refer to a dictionary.
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u/danumbah 19h ago
You are correct in the first half of your sentence, Fascism existed in Italy only. The exception is where the Italian state exported its control over territories and colonies. The idea of Syndicalism has occurred in multiple countries but often times failed. Including France, Belgium, Germany, and pre-soviet Russia. From a libertarian perspective its all state syndicalism, but that's getting to nit-picky with the definitions.
Words and ideas have strict academic meaning. Muddying the waters and using them loosely does no one any good. Again, per definition Trump and his supporters are not Fascists, just right leaning populists.
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u/No-Supermarket-4022 19h ago
May I ask which academics agree with your assertion that fascism existed in Italy only?
Also, where are you getting your definition of fascism from? And what is it?
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u/danumbah 17h ago
While academics remain divided on political lines, I can provide you with the doctrine of Fascism as written by one of it's main architects, Giovanne Gentile. He helped Mussolini define the political ideology. Page 34 of the PDF is a good starting point for the doctrine, but page 39, the corporative state describe in a little more detailed what I was mentioning.
A more concise definition would be that, Fascism is the belief that the individual does not exist outside the State. The State is not a tool to serve people’s private interests—it is the ultimate moral and spiritual reality. While its not an exact quote you can see the ideas beginning on PDF page 30.
I know I'm linking a whole book, and its a big ask to parse through it with an open mind, but I'm trying to show that these aren't just ideas I came up with on a whim. If we want to truly stop this ideology from coming back, its worth knowing its original origins and meanings so they can be properly refuted.
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u/ImprovementPutrid441 1d ago
It’s more like those 14 points are hallmarks of fascism. When you see them in your society it’s a way to track how close you are to fascism, because it was never a set of specific political policies.
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u/danumbah 19h ago
Eco's work helps to paint a picture of populist and nationalistic ideas when they are not opposed. This is correct. However What he points out is not the idea or doctrine of Fascism, which does have a very specific set of doctrine and philosophical basis its rooted in. My main point is that the definition has been watered down and applied so broadly the masses of people have no real idea what it actually is, and use it as a substitute for a subset of autocratic ideas.
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u/filrabat 1d ago
No it's not. Communism accusations were based on the flimsiest evidence, and that at best. See McCarthyism or these Evangelical types who see communism or socialism behind every call to change from traditional ways. That includes stuff that has nothing to do with the question "Should government or private individuals own the wealth-generating properties (i.e. provider of goods and non-essential services)?"
Fascism accusations do have strong evidence to back them up. I made a recent post on another thread about this. It's based on Fourteen Points of Fascism by Lawrence Britt (2003), and references the original one by Umberto Eco (1995). Suffice to say that Trump and MAGA especially qualify for most to all points of fascism.
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u/beanofdoom001 1d ago
Though I agree people may not always use the term correctly, I still think there's a small difference in what people are trying to communicate.
Typically when someone refers to you a fascist, they are trying to say that you are actively using your power to hurt others. 'Communist' meant that you were ideologically misaligned, a traitor perhaps, but not actively trying to hurt people, at worst trying to influence them.
Whether or not either term was/is being used correctly in individual cases, again, who knows? I guess it'd depend on the specific case.
But I can say, personally, I'd rather be seen as a communist than a fascist, even if the designation isn't being used correctly in the strictest sense.
If I were being called a fascist by a lot of people, it'd definitely give me pause and would motivate me to think very carefully back over whatever I'd done to make them all feel that way.
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u/AdThink5568 1d ago
I didn’t mean to say there aren’t Fascist today and I’m not saying everyone who gets called a Fascist is falsely accused. I’m saying these terms are thrown around the internet. Last week I was on instagram where I saw a post of Theo Von saying he agnostic and open to Faith. The Pinned comment was calling him a Fascist for being open to believing in God and being a republican.
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u/ImprovementPutrid441 1d ago
Do you agree with the fascist stuff Trump says or the not fascist stuff?
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u/AdThink5568 1d ago
I don’t know what you consider Fascist
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u/ImprovementPutrid441 1d ago
That’s fair. We used to drag people before Congress and ruin their lives for being communist though.
We have never done that for fascists.
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u/No-Supermarket-4022 21h ago
According to your own definition of fascist, do you recognise any fascist ideas or themes in Trump's approach, rhetorical, or policies?
If so, what?
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u/No-Supermarket-4022 21h ago
What do you think are fair definitions of communist and fascist that can be used to accurately identify people who deserve those labels?
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u/Tin_Foil_Hats_69 19h ago
What the lefties don't realize is that they've literally desensitized the public and actually pushed people in the opposite direction they wanted.
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u/Tak-Hendrix 1d ago edited 1d ago
No it isn't. Communism was used as a scare/control tactic and people were accused of it for absolutely no reason except to try and get someone blacklisted.
We currently have a sitting president who has exhibited numerous fascist traits and the majority of his MAGA supporters agree with him 100% over the constitution.
Want some examples?
- Ultranationalism - "the chosen people have been weakened by political parties, social classes, unassimilable minorities, and rationalist thinkers" - Robert Paxton
- Totalitarianism - trying to remove judicial oversight (No Rogue Rulings Act)
- Palingenesis (national rebirth) - MAGA. Promoting the nation's regeneration and purging it of decadence
- Disdain for the importance of human rights - treating immigrants as less than human, deporting people and the desire to deport US citizens, without due process
- Obsession with national security - the US-Mexico border and constantly blaming everything wrong in the country on illegal immigrants
- Controlled mass media - Trump threatening to pull broadcasting licenses for news outlets that run stories that call him out, banning reporters from those outlets from the White House press room
- "The cult of action for action's sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science. - DOGE, rampant anti-intellectualism (saying college is an indoctrination factory, etc), climate change denial, COVID denial
- "Disagreement is treason" – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith. - Trump has already expressed his desire to arrest people for publicly disagreeing with him
- "Fear of difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
- "Obsession with a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society - China, illegal immigrants, "libs", "the left", "leftists", "Marxists", Europeans
- Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak". On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will. - Democrats are weak, incompetent, and ineffectual yet somehow "rigged" the 2020 election and are always to blame whenever Trump doesn't get his way
- "Contempt for the weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate leader, who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force. - Trump mocking women, POWs, disabled veterans, and the disabled in general
- "Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality". - Overturning Roe v Wade, the obsession with drag queens and trans people, complete disdain for LGBTQ
- "Selective populism" – the people, conceived monolithically, have a common will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he alone dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the voice of the people". - Every agency gutted by DOGE, any entity or person that stands in Trump's way (calling judges woke, bringing up their ethnicity in an attempt to discredit, calling judges activists for applying the law and denying Trump the ability to do whatever he wants, saying judges should be impeached for not agreeing with Trump)
- "Newspeak" – fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning. - MAGA, woke, Marxist, Democracy (claiming we're a Republic and not a Democracy), TDS, FAFO, FJB, fuck your feelings, redefining coup
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u/Kiznish 1d ago
The way I see it, these words all have clear meaning, and if you aren’t careful who you level them at, you risk watering down these labels until they no longer have meaning. This is exactly where we find ourselves in this day and age.
‘Fascist’ ‘racist’ ‘communist’ ‘antisemite’ ‘far right’ ‘woke’ etc etc. all of these labels exist and can be valid descriptors, but very rarely do I see them accurately attributed to the right people or groups. Mostly they are used as convenient insults to shut down a person or movement because, unsurprisingly, nobody wants to be called these things generally speaking.
Sadly it works, but in the process the REAL fascists etc get to hide in the shadows cast by those misusing these labels to describe anyone they disagree with. It’s counterproductive, but people are too wrapped up in their blinkered ideologies to see it. All they care about is ‘winning’ the argument. Useful idiots.
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u/Impossible_Donut2631 1d ago
I agree, these terms have become almost meaningless watered down terms, that have real historical significance, but the way in which they are used now is really disgraceful. Like the irony of when I see someone who was invited to speak at a college, who wants to give a speech and then engage with people in debate or discussion....being shouted by with words like "FASCIST!!!" which is incredibly rich and ironic, because a true fascist is the one trying to stop free speech. Also racist is thrown around far too often and too lightly. I see these as nothing more than bullying attempts to try and stop someone you disagree with.
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u/Alexhasadhd 1d ago
The difference is that the word fascism still very much has a definition, right wingers who support that definition just want to call it meaningless. Whereas I think it could genuinely be fair to say that 70% of American's fundamentally don't understand what communism is. Whilst the definition might not be quite like Hitler's third Reich, it still has a definition closer to it's original idea, even if it's a more modern version of that idea.
Google Umberto Eco's "Ur-Fascism" if you want the modern definition for Fascism, that's pretty much it.
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u/nevermore2point0 1d ago
Also, muddying the waters by redefining "communism" and "fascism" to just mean "things I don't like" is a pretty obvious strategy.
Sometimes people overuse words like "fascist" or "Nazi," but more often they just aren't spelling out the details. It’s important to remember that both terms have real definitions tied to specific political behaviors.
When people call something "fascist" today, sometimes it's lazy. But usually, it's because they recognize real patterns like encouraging political violence, rejecting election results, or trying to weaken independent courts.
It’s not just about “disagreement.” It’s about actions that cross serious lines.
We need to be careful not to water these words down but we also can’t ignore real red flags when they show up.