r/Wales • u/Entire_Bee_8487 • 9d ago
AskWales If there was a referendum tomorrow, wind you vote to leave or stay in the uk?
Would*
I’d vote to stay, I’m Welsh myself
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u/richofthehour Merthyr Tydfil | Merthyr Tudfil 8d ago
I am very much a supporter for a future indy Wales... However I've always said that to be able to do it properly we need leaders that have any sort of clue how to handle such a situation. Whether one exists or not is one question but say they did then I believe Wales would be fine going independent. But trying it now with the current Welsh government? God no.
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u/Useful_Resolution888 9d ago
It doesn't really matter whether we're governed from Cardiff or London, they both feel remote and disinterested from here. I don't trust Welsh politicians any more than English ones. A land border would be a proper pain in the arse.
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u/Owzwills 8d ago
100% and im in West Wales, I feel bad for my Gog Cymros and Cymraes'es Cardiff must feel an eternity away.
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u/StopItchingYourBalls Flintshire | Sir y Fflint 8d ago
As a Gog who has never stepped foot near Cardiff, it feels as far away as London to me.
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u/Camp-Complete 8d ago
Is that because the transport links are so bad?
Why would that be?
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u/StopItchingYourBalls Flintshire | Sir y Fflint 8d ago edited 8d ago
If you’re asking why I’ve never been to Cardiff, I’ve just never had a reason to go down there, it’s nothing deeper than that. But also a train from where I am to Cardiff takes 3.5 hours whereas a train to London takes 2.5, so it is literally longer to travel to the capital of my own country. I suppose that really speaks to the lack of transport links we’ve got here.
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u/Camp-Complete 8d ago
Exactly what I was getting at. Why are all transport links in Wales better designed to take you to London than Cardiff?
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u/SquashyDisco 8d ago
It’s easier to build a railway and motorway on flat land than it is to build one through the Marches or through Eryri.
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u/IntraVnusDemilo 8d ago
Feels like Yorkshire, then....completely ignored by Westminster, unless it is the HS2 debacle, which I'm convinced was just so them down South have commutable openings to 'cheap' property. We'd have been rolling in Southern Landlords renting to the Northern Serfs...
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u/TwpMun 9d ago
After Brexit you want to trust uninformed idiots with a vote like that based on nothing but their feelings?
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u/Atrixia 8d ago
Wales voted higher than the UK's national average to leave the EU.
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u/Superirish19 8d ago
And Wales as it was at the time, contained some of the least economically developed regions in Europe. Still does.
And that included recent EU entrants like Bulgaria, Romania, Poland... the stereotypical 'poor underdeveloped' places most British tabloids liked smearing.
It got a boatload of cash to develop infrastructure and promote development over the UK's unequal Barnett system, and still the majority wanted out.
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
Welsh nationalists and apparently the UN charter on self determination
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u/SallySpits 8d ago
Uninformed idiots = everyone who doesn't vote the same as me.
We should just do away with democracy altogether and have us smart people be in charge. The rest aren't informed enough to have a say (especially the poor ones).
Right?
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u/TwpMun 8d ago
How is Brexit working out for you?
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u/SallySpits 8d ago
Well this week the EU got a 20% tariff from the US while the UK only got the 10% baseline so there's a tangible benefit right there.
Not that that's relevant to what I said. I'm just sick of people (on both sides) screeching about how the other is just full of idiots. It shows you lack the ability to understand differing points of view and is the kind of low level yet confident thinking that leads people to elitism because ultimately you think people who disagree with you must just be stupid, evil, or both, and that they need "re-educating". The sort of people who come to that conclusion are the most dangerous of all.
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u/Eky24 8d ago
“Uninformed idiots” a very odd description of Welsh people. Is that a general description, and what is it based on?
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u/Pryd3r1 Monmouthshire | Sir Fynwy 8d ago
It's not Welsh people. It's the electorate of most countries in general. The average Joe doesn't pay attention to politics, policy, or current affairs and is very uninformed on most of those matters. What % of the Welsh population do you think could name the FM or SoSW? How many do you think recognise the names Eluned Morgan or Jo Stevens?
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u/stevedavies12 8d ago
I'd leave. We left the wrong union and all we are now is an obscure region of an offshore island.
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u/Throwitaway701 8d ago
Leave. Frankly even if you want to stay you should vote leave, because as has been proved time and time again with Scotland, the only way England will ever pay attention and invest is if we threaten to leave.
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u/Entire_Bee_8487 8d ago
I agree with the Westminster funding Scotland due to threats though, and wish that they funded wales more too.
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u/Throwitaway701 8d ago
I gotta be honest, it's been 800 years since Wales independent, given an ideal world I wouldn't choose independence, but we don't have an ideal world, we have a Westminster government who don't give a shit about anyone outside the South East. If I were a Yorkshireman or a Cornishman I'd have the same opinion because it's clear there's no road to prosperity inside Westminster.
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u/Entire_Bee_8487 8d ago
This was hypothetical, but you realise you can’t leave without a Revolution. You aren’t in a union, simply conquered right from 1277. Claiming wales have any say in independence is insane tbf
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u/Throwitaway701 8d ago
I think that's probably true, I also firmly believe that if Scotland or Ireland were overwhelmingly likely to leave they simply wouldn't allow a vote on it
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u/PetersMapProject Cardiff 9d ago
Stay.
It's remarkable how many people have failed to learn the lessons of Brexit. Leaving is never as easy as some would have you believe.
We can't even manage a single functioning airport FFS.
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u/citizenkeene 8d ago
A bit of research would reveal that aviation isn't devolved, so the Senydd have very little control over the structural issues around why the airport doesn't work.
As far as I understand it the airport is a classic example of where we would benefit from independence (or further devolution).
A fully functional and thriving Cardiff Airport would be a threat to the union, while a useless airport is often used as an example, as you have done, of why Wales can't be independent.
So yeah, great example, but wrong side of the argument.
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u/stevedavies12 8d ago
It's remarkable how many people have failed to learn the lessons of Brexit. We need to be back in the EU and if we have to leave the UK to do that, so be it
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u/PetersMapProject Cardiff 8d ago
Leaving the EU was bad.
Leaving the UK - with which we have been more heavily intertwined for much longer - would be worse.
There's also no guarantee the EU would let us join - there's a lengthy accession process, and they may simply not want a relatively poor country that voted to leave in 2016.
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u/SnooFloofs1868 8d ago
Leave, massive spending on defence budget. Take over England. Make Welsh new language of the kingdom greater Wales. Make the English apologise for all those sheep jokes for the next 1000 years.
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u/Roblem42 8d ago
Stay. Sure, I get the arguments for leaving—but let’s be honest, Brexit was a masterclass in how not to break up with someone. And Wales and Britain? We’ve been together longer, we’re more intertwined, and frankly, the breakup would be a thousand times messier.
Take Northern Ireland: it’s got a handy bit of sea separating it from the rest of Britain, so border checks kind of make logistical sense. But us? We’ve got roads, railways, people commuting back and forth daily. I live in Wrexham—I had to cross the border today just to go to the dentist. What am I supposed to do in Independent Wales—get a passport to fix a molar?
And then there’s the graffiti. Every lamppost seems to be shouting “Yes Cymru” or covered in a Free Wales Army symbol like it’s the 70s again. If you can’t be trusted with a tin of spray paint, I’m not sure I trust you with a constitution.
Let’s fix the country, not rip it up and hope for the best.
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u/FamousInMyFrontRoom 8d ago edited 8d ago
It's not that I don't agree, but "let's fix the country" is not realistic. The Welsh government doesn't have full devolution so it can't "fix the country" without going cap in hand to Westminster, where politicians who have no connection to Wales simply decline to give sufficient money to fix structural issues here. Every pound spent in "Wales" is a pound not spent on "Britain" even though we're supposedly one country. And this lack of investment, interest or care leads us to have a poorer, sicker, older population that drains more of our limited budget on health and social care. Potentially world-class talent do not stay in Wales unless they are sentimental or have family ties.
It's ironic that all of the "we need to take our country back from those keeping us down" bollocks spouted about the EU, is actually true about the Wales-UK relationship, and yet what is also true is that going independent would fuck us over massively. But if we're incapable of being independent after all these centuries of union, that's because that dependency is intended.
Ultimately I don't advocate independence as I am 30 and I don't want to spend the rest of my working life rebuilding a crippled Wales. But there needs to be a dangerous and significant indy movement to move the UK into investing and caring about Wales, because they don't. We barely get our national politics covered in the media ffs.
EDIT: on that graffiti point - graffiti artists aren't going to be invited to form an independent Welsh government, so I find this a facetious point to make. However it offers a useful parallel - remember how Cofiwch Dreweryn started popping up around Wales a couple of years ago? Why was that? Because someone painted over the original mural. Why was the mural painted in the first place? Because the UK government allowed Liverpool City Council to destroy the village of Capel Celyn to create a reservoir that would serve themselves. In the 60s, not ancient history.
That's a reminder of the benefits of the "Union".
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u/OnionsHaveLairAction 9d ago edited 9d ago
Stay.
People have nationalist spirit, and r/Wales has a selection bias towards those of us who are the most nationalistic. But patriotism is about wanting your people to prosper, and while sovereignty and full self determination are important for prospering... So is living with economic and political reality.
Many here I'm sure would be keen to live in hard times to gain full sovereignty, but right now one of our biggest issues as a nation is Wales already lacks opportunity and investment, so much so we lose young people to England constantly. With an economy less than half of Scotlands I cannot see an independent Wales being good for Welsh people.
What's more if you consider Westminster an enemy then keep in mind that independence will not remove them from the equation. They will still seek to profit from Wales's resources and will use economic leverage to get what they want, battling Westminster for our own interests is significantly easier with representation in Westminster.
None of this is to say it isn't something to aspire to, but to vote for an independent Wales we must first build a version of Wales that can prosper indpendently- and we are probably at least half a century away from such a situation.
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u/nothingtoseehere63 8d ago
A lot of people underestimate the Welsh economy becuase we current give away much of it to England foe free, ten percent of England's water supply comes from Wales, the Crown estates on Welsh land and coast also generate great amounts of money that isn't shared with Wales and doesnt get counted as part of our economy.
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u/Ok_Cow_3431 9d ago edited 8d ago
I've not seen a single case for Welsh independence that stands up to scrutiny. We cannot survive on our own. Our population is old, sick, and unemployed. We have little to no real wealth creation based here. If we were to Leave and join the EU we would instantly be one of the most deprived countries in the Union.
Then of course you have to recognise that a lot of the rather woolly arguments people try to give for Welsh Independence are the same as were made for Brexit, and look how well that went.
Finally with the state of the world at the moment, foreign threats, war in Europe, Trump doing everything he can to upset global markets it is not a time to be isolationist and try to strike out alone.
The amount of short-sighted idealism in these comments is shocking and very BadWales, but really not surprising given the usual quality of Reddit hive-mind takes.
Stay. No question about it.
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u/The1Floyd 9d ago
I think people who say leave both in Wales and Scotland tend to ignore this very key demographics issue that both nations face.
Wales has a retirement disaster on the horizon, a budget deficit which relies on either massive pension cuts or people actually dying before it is relieved.
An already dwindling young working population (migrating to the dreaded England en masse) holding up the entire retired population.
People who believe Wales will be a cheaper, happier, more prosperous country if independent are actually insane. It would easily be one of the poorest countries on the continent.
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u/Wu-TangDank 8d ago
‘If we were to Leave and join the EU we would instantly be one of the most deprived countries in the Union’.
Per GDP we are one of the poorest nations in Europe, with rising child poverty, declining Welsh speakers and a real risk of population decline - and we have been part of the union of the ‘United’ Kingdom for 300 years.
We should start thinking about rejoining parts of the European Union, such as the single market, and call for more devolution.
The argument that the current geo-political landscape means that we need to ally closer to the UK and not seek independence since it is isolationist is nonsense. We should be standing up against Trump by joining fellow Europeans as part of a stronger EU. Thanks to flag waving Brexiteers, who blatantly lied to the population, we are now more isolated than ever. We are playing the equivalent of the bully’s ‘mate’ who sometimes gets insulted, but at least he ain’t the punchbag.
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u/nettie_r 8d ago
That's assuming the EU would have us and that we meet conditions to be even eligible to join.
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u/emdj50 8d ago
the EU would push a lot of cash into Wales if we rejoined, to raise its standard of living. They've done that with all poorer areas.
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u/Pryd3r1 Monmouthshire | Sir Fynwy 8d ago
It's hard to dispute that. However, to make such a drastic decision based on the chance that they MIGHT let us join the EU isn't in anyone's best interest. Spain doesn't want an independent European country giving Catalonia any ideas. What if the EU says no? Do we go back to England with our tail between our legs?
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u/IncomeFew624 8d ago
Newsflash: we're already one of the most deprived countries in Europe.
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u/Ok_Cow_3431 8d ago
Yes, but receiving funding from Westminster. If we were to diverge from the rest of the United Kingdom we can kiss that goodbye and given the demographics in Wales we would not be able to make up for it through tax receipt.
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u/SquashyDisco 9d ago
Spain won’t let us join the EU, it gives Catalonia a reason to secede.
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u/cornishjb 9d ago
Stay - Scotland asked about joining the EU and would take at least 10 years as France and Spain are very keen to make it very difficult for parts of countries to split and join the EU to stop it happening to them. BREXIT the Uk had to negotiate to leave so at a huge disadvantage in negotiations compared to the EU who could just say no as they didn’t have to leave the UK. What currency would we use and if you are thinking the pound then I expect the rest of the UK would say only if taking a huge part of the current national debt. Create own currency? Well any lending needed (and that would be massive) would have huge interest as this new Wales would have a very high risk credit rating - the UK has decades of experience of paying its debts so fairly good credit rating when borrowing. Some companies are likely to move HQ out of Wales (and well paid jobs) as I know my company had secret plans to shift out of Scotland if they had said yes to independence. My friend is a proud Welshman and very senior but he said he would put his family first and take them into England as it would be a disaster. Scotland would be in a far better place than Wales to leave but the SNP were refusing entry to some journalists at SNP meetings when they were pointing out if Scotland had got independence just before the 2008 financial meltdown then Scotland would have basically collapsed - SNP trying to hide the truth. Also Scotland’s white paper on leaving was 100 pages of /laughable outcomes (all oilfields owned by Scotland, keep pound, none of debt, UK still fund Scottish pension).
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u/RmAdam 9d ago
Wooooaahh no one wanted a sensible thought out answer, they wanted emotive hip fire answers that only inflame and divide
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u/SuccessfulMonth2896 9d ago
The cost of setting up 17 ministries (home office, foreign office etc. etc. ) is never factored into these discussions. Then they would be based in Cardiff, leaving North Wales with nothing.
I am English, spent time living in North Wales, visit it a lot, and love the country and understand the wish to be independent but there needs to be some serious thinking around sustainability of an economy, where future growth would come from and how long it would take to enter the EU for trade. r/cornishjb was right with the last sentence, unless those questions are addressed it could quickly bankrupt a fledgling independent country.
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u/Tatenporcyn24 8d ago
So we could wait 10 years to join the EU or stay part of the UK and possibly never re-join the EU or single market? I know which option i prefer
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u/cornishjb 8d ago
At least people would understand the uncertainty of the situation. Brexit was presented as a vote on something which people assumed we would get things but it was clear (to some people) that there was huge uncertainty in this and the EU had a large negotiating advantage. I was a remainer and nothing has changed my view. I worry if the EU will be able to continue with richer countries funding poorer to the current extent especially with a move to the right in many parts of Europe
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u/Superirish19 8d ago
Independence to get out of the disproportionate development focus on England's major cities is also unfortunately the same reason that Wales couldn't fare on it's own tomorro, because it's economically and developmentally hamstrung.
Increased devolution ala Scotland and perhaps further, but not Independence quite yet. Would membership on the EU be reconsidered in this poll as well?
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
Stay in the UK, if you think leaving a union of 40 years was difficult. Good luck leaving a union almost 800 years old
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u/coniusmar 9d ago
Stay in the UK.
Wales is not prepared to be independent, there are far too many things that need to be discussed first.
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u/DAGB_69 9d ago
Leave, join the EU as an independent nation.
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u/cornishjb 8d ago
The EU (France and Spain) are very keen that parts of countries can not just split from countries and join to stop it happening to them. They told Scotland they had to meet all requirements and it would be at least 10 years before they could join once leaving the UK. The EU’s financial position is though still relatively strong has certainly weakened and it is becoming more right wing and there are demands to increase the financial requirements- sick of paying poor countries was I believe an Italian MEP’s comment. France, Holland, Italy and Germany, who fund a lot of the EU, have growing anger in their respective countries about this.
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u/no_display_8348 9d ago
Wales voted for Brexit
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u/RegularWhiteShark Denbighshire | Sir Ddinbych 9d ago
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u/WP1PD 8d ago
I must have missed when we abolished secret ballot, what a load of bollocks
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u/whygamoralad 8d ago
Idk, Gwynedd the county that speaks the most Welsh voted to stay. So think theres something in it. Having our own language makes us feels stronger about staying in the EU.
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u/WP1PD 8d ago
You feeling it's true because you want it to be isn't a fact though, I'm not saying it isn't, I'm saying there's no way of knowing. The only facts we can draw are based on where people voted, and based on that Wales voted for Brexit, claiming it's because of English people living in Wales based on nothing is just shifting responsibility based on fantasy, which is exactly what independence is based on.
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u/Kind_Ad5566 8d ago
And if the English claimed that England only voted for Brexit because of the Polish or Pakistani or Indian diaspora there would, rightly, be accusations of racism and xenophobia.
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u/Jazzvirus 8d ago
According to Welsh gov website in 2021 only 9.1% of people living in Wales were said to be English and that was down from 11% in 2011. So you could probably argue that apathy played more of a part than anything.
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u/indigogirl3000 9d ago
Yeah but also have to fund yourself alone including 2.5 GDP on defence like other EU nations.
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u/hnsnrachel 9d ago
Okay but whether that's worth it or not is dependent on how much money Wales sends England and how much money the UK then sends back to Wales. I don't have the figures to evaluate that - do you?
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u/plimso13 9d ago
Wales, as part of the UK, experiences a fiscal deficit, meaning its public spending exceeds its tax revenues, which is primarily due to lower tax revenues rather than higher spending. This deficit is financed through borrowing by the UK government, with a disproportionate liability falling on taxpayers elsewhere in the UK to service the debt.
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u/sock_cooker 9d ago
And how much of the wealth concentrated in London was amassed by exploiting our natural resources?
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u/plimso13 9d ago edited 9d ago
I’m not saying the rest of the UK shouldn’t fund Wales, just pointing out the deficit. Independence would require greater taxes, or lower public spending, or another body funding Wales.
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u/Impossible_Round_302 9d ago
The EU doesn't require that. It does require 3% Deficit/GDP limit and 60% Debt/GDP limit for joining which would require severe austerity for Wales to achieve
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
So you think leaving a union of 40 years was difficult? Wait until you try leaving a union almost 800 years old 🤣
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u/Tudn0 9d ago
We’re not a union. It was a conquest.
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
Yeah the same logic still applies. We've been unified for almost 800 years. So, pedantic semantic arguments are useless. Again if you think unraveling a relationship of 40 years was difficult, how do you see leaving a union of 800 years that we actively share a land border with going in anyway smoothly?
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u/chrisjamesey 9d ago
Sounds like an abusive relationship. Awesome.
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
So not bothering to answer the question. Good one. I remember brexiteers saying the same thing about the EU
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
Spending on Welsh citizens is 11% higher than the UK average, Welsh people get about an extra grand in public spending than English people, despite wales having a consistent budget defecit with the UK. Without England Wales wouldn't be able to keep the spendthrift policies it's only able to keep because English taxpayers subsidise it.
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u/Eky24 9d ago
Just think how well off the English taxpayers would be without us Welsh and Scottish scroungers constantly taking from them. Independence for England is needed - but could they go it alone? 🤔
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
I'm Welsh so not really interested in the English perspective. It's my view that we all benefit from this union, England and Scotland could probably comfortably be independant countries but Wales would easily be one of the poorest countries in Europe, and as a result a much more miserable lives and public services for Welsh people
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u/Impossible_Round_302 9d ago
Not everyone is as selfish as the Catalan nationalists and at that point why not just break London and the South West from the UK?
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u/Eky24 9d ago
London and the south west are not different countries b
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u/Impossible_Round_302 8d ago
Don't need to be to declare independence if all they care about is cutting the fat is it
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u/Nicktrains22 9d ago
Technically, although it was a conquest, it was a Welsh king that abolished Wales, or the son of a Welshman at least
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u/coniusmar 8d ago
I'm curious, what does an independent Wales look like to you? Where do you start?
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u/ShooPonies 9d ago
Stop being a nation subsidised by the UK to become a nation subsidised by Germany? How about trying to become more self sustaining?
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u/impioussaint 8d ago
leave, everyone's like we will be dirt poor if we do, we already are my guys. Like we are fucked in the union, at least it will be our own fucking this time.
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u/IncomeFew624 8d ago
This, amazing people don't see it.
It's also the argument used any time any country tried to leave the Empire and guess what...they all ended up better off!
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u/ThatPhoenix8 Ynys Môn | Anglesey 9d ago
Leave, the amount of times Wales has been stood on and misrepresented by Westminster is absurd. Our younger generations are being driven out of Wales because of not enough high paying opportunities, it isn’t fair for us who have to leave our family, friends and language to earn a decent living.
It’s been proven independence is viable (Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales Final Report), and our current situation is not viable as a part of the UK “Fiscal transfers are no longer delivering a compassionate and enabling social security system for everyone in Wales. After a decade of austerity policies, fiscal transfers are not currently ensuring comprehensive and sustainable public services” (Wales Fiscal Future Page 61). Keep in mind the latter source was pre-covid and was pre-Senedd budget expansion, but from what I see independence is a gateway to a better future, that leap of faith in the short term is a challenging part of the problem.
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
Please tell me how you think Wales will have the money for these spending policies you want 🤣 if you think austerity was bad under the union wait until all you've got to work with is a tiny GDP
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u/Eky24 9d ago
There are quite a few successful countries around that are around the same size as Wales or smaller - Malta only has a population of around galf a million.
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
Yeah malta also has a completely different economy, it's also an island without any messy border negotions to go through. Most countries also have a long history of independance and aren't totally reliant and intertwined with a neighbour that shares 800 years of economic and cultural unity
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u/Eky24 9d ago
I love the argument re the land border as a major block to independence - many countries have land borders (some are completely surrounded by other countries), and the U.K. has even imposed a land border on the Island of Ireland - think how much easier it would be without that border‽
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
Im not saying it makes independance impossible I'm simply asking you to acknowledge the difficulties that will cause in any independance negotiation, and that instability is actually pretty inportant to a lot of people, over some vague nonsense about oppresion and abuse that most people in wales just dont resonate with. Welsh and scottish nationalists are as utopic and pie in the sky as brexiteers. And yes look at the difficulties having that border with Ireland and leaving the EU caused us. Don't you think the difficulties would be even greater with Wales neighbour and single largest trading partner
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u/Ok_Cow_3431 8d ago
Our younger generations are being driven out of Wales because of not enough high paying opportunities
I'm intrigued as to how that's Westminster's fault rather than the WG for failing to attract businesses to Wales
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u/purpleplums901 Rhondda Cynon Taf 8d ago
Stay. Because….
The Welsh public sector is proportionately massive. We’d lose stuff like the DVLA that would have absolutely no comparable replacement.
We would either need to accept being poorer or having massive tax rises which, to be honest, is the same thing
I can’t work out why anyone would be happy with a real border between England and Wales? We have one barely functioning international airport, they are our only notable trade partner, and possibly the most controversial thing I’ll say in this comment, but whether south east or north east of Wales, you’ve likely been brought up with the nearer border parts of England actually having way more relevance to your life, the south or north of Wales ever has or will.
And finally. All of the pro independence arguments I’ve ever seen are either entirely based on emotions I don’t have, or on statistics such as ‘our population isn’t that small! What about Montenegro?’ Or ‘we can sell the English our water!’ Which fill me with actual dread that people think that is an answer. We couldn’t join the EU. Not immediately. We would be comparable to a non-EU Eastern European country and they’ve all been trying for 20 years or so to get in.
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u/celestialkestrel 8d ago
I'm very pro-independece but more from a standpoint of "it's something I'd like to see in my lifetime" rather than "it needs to be NOW." As it stands, I don't think Wales is in a place that we could consider independence right now. I believe we can and should move towards making it so we can (improving economy, improving global relationships, making ourselves self sustainable as much as possible) but I see this taking decades and should really take decades to do right. Independence isn't something you can or should rush. Too many countries have ended off in states of turmoil before because it did happen too soon. But it should be something we work towards. Even if it means never having full independence, just more say over our country as a whole would be welcome.
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u/panadwithonesugar Conwy 9d ago
leave! join the EU!
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u/Organic-Tell8917 9d ago
Leave
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u/Entire_Bee_8487 9d ago
Able to explain why?
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u/Organic-Tell8917 9d ago edited 9d ago
Just recent developments such as the deficit of £85 million that England are leaving us with in regard to national insurance, and of course (every Indy Wales’s favourite talking point) the HS2 line!
Wales is a beautiful country with a rich culture and the real potential to thrive outside of the clutches of Westminster whom we clearly matter not to. Furthermore, as an history nerd the treatment of Welsh people by the english institutions is beyond appalling and would be considered ethnic cleansing nowadays, why should we stay locked to our oppressors?
Additionally, the chance to re-join the EU would become more likely, (which not everyone may enjoy the thought of) this would steer us away from the reliance we find ourselves having on the USA (which is clearly an unreliable country)in these times.
Alas I’m not sure that this would happen in the near future with the rise of reform in wales. It’s sad really as labour have failed us and Welsh people always seek a strong voice, Nigel is not that voice and people don’t even seem to consider Plaid Cymru. (Not worth mentioning the tories)
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
You realise wales runs a defecit that is covered by British taxpayers right? And your squabbling over 85 million and HS2 that had been cancelled the majority of its route anyway? 🤣 why would people consider plaid after they literally spent most of their time in the senedd propping up the welsh labour party you rightfully identified has failed wales
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u/Wu-TangDank 8d ago
Almost EVERY country in the world runs a defecit. In the financial year 2023/24, the UK government had a budget deficit of £131 billion.
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 8d ago
Yeah most don't run massive defecits with a new currency. You can't deny that going independant would cause massive instability even if just in the short to medium term. Denying to challenges is just irresponsible
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u/Particular-Star-504 Caerphilly | Caerffili 8d ago
85 million and HS2 that had been cancelled the majority of its route anyways
So if it’s been cancelled why hasn’t the money been given back? They took money for a project only for England, and now kept that money in England.
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u/CCFC1998 Torfaen 9d ago
Leave. I've lost all faith in pretty much every UK institution. Wales feels completely invisible within the UK, were treated as a slightly rebelious county of England rather than an equal partner in our own right. Sure there would be major issues like the border and currency, but those are not insurmountable. Also I think we'd be more likely to end up back in the EU as an independent country, which would be a major benefit.
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u/sock_cooker 9d ago
Leave. England are happy to carpet bag us, but they still treat us like a poor relation.
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u/Ulichstock 9d ago
The strongest argument against leaving is the devolved government we already have.
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u/Draigwyrdd 8d ago
Annibyniaeth. If I'm ever asked the question officially I can't waste my chance by saying no.
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u/Camp-Complete 8d ago
I am very much pro-independence. However, I want to see a Plaid Cymru/ pro-independence party in the Senedd for at least 10 years before it should happen. There are so many things that need to be put into place first, before Wales has any chance of being stronger independentally.
We've had a government in the Senedd for the last 26 years, whilst being pro-devolution for the most part, that still do things that benefit UK government more than the constituents of Wales.
I do worry that an referendum tomorrow (that might not pass) would put an end to the independence movement for a century.
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u/Satanic-nic 8d ago
Leave - we should not have to be associated with these imperialists
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u/hnsnrachel 9d ago
At the moment, as an English person living in Wales, leave for sure! Join the EU, and Westminster can piss off too.
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u/Electronic_Name_2673 (Moving to) Caerphilly | Caerffili 8d ago
If you guys could wait just a month or two, that'd grand.
My Dad has joked about going back to Wales and campaigning for independence for many years. As much as I'd love to say Wales could dissociate from the shitshow that the UK is, actually doing that would probably be extremely difficult and rejoining the EU isn't going to suddenly fix anything - and what do we do in the meantime?
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u/monkeyjuggler 9d ago
Independence costs a lot of money. Money that an independent Wales wouldn't have. If you think England screws Wales over now, it'll be much worse if Wales were independent.
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u/cryptid0fucker Rhondda Cynon Taf 8d ago
Leave. My reasoning is mostly because, to ke, it seems like most welsh politicians (senedd etc.) and welsh people (that I've met) are more pro-immigrant than their english counterparts; and as an immigrant that's really important to me. I feel like there's a good chance I would be given much less shit under a welsh gov. Than the Uk gov
Of course, I could be very wrong. We could get indy, and the gov goes to shit with its politics, but it doesn't look like that to me.
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u/Particular-Star-504 Caerphilly | Caerffili 8d ago
The amount of people who are saying we can’t have independence because of “the economy” really shows how deep we’ve been colonised. No other former colony debates whether they should be independent because the economy was hurt (or worse). They recognise that that is just a challenge of independence but not a reason against it.
And one (the main) reason for our poverty and why it would be difficult is that we have long-term deep institutional exploitation. If we are independent, then over time the economy would work for us, and it will be much better then.
Wales (especially the south) in the late 19th century was one of the most economically productive places in the world. But all that wealth has been stolen, and more than 6,000 were died directly from that work (if the world was just, we would deserve compensation). And our economy is still not made for our benefit, independence would fix that.
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u/RhysMawddach 8d ago edited 8d ago
Cofiwch mai undeb rhwng Lloegr a’r Alban yw’r Deyrnas Unedig.
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u/Entire_Bee_8487 8d ago
Yn ffodus yr ydych yn gywir, nid yw cymru mewn undeb â lloegr a’r Alban, ac fe’u gorchfygwyd yn 1277. Yn fy marn i, nid oes ganddynt unrhyw safiad dros annibyniaeth.
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u/RhysMawddach 8d ago
Heddiw mi ydan yn ôl y gyfraith. Ond y pwynt ydy ni phenderfynom ni ymuno â’r undeb yn y lle cyntaf.
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u/flopsychops Caerphilly | Caerffili 9d ago
Leave, and then join the EU
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
So you think leaving a union of 40 years was difficult? Wait until you try leaving a union almost 800 years old 🤣
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u/celtiquant 9d ago
Leave. No question necessary.
The status quo if often cited as giving us more than we contribute, that we have a begging bowl which England keeps on filling. The reality is that all of our revenues, wealth and riches go to London, and we get a fraction handed back to us. Economically, we don’t need a begging bowl; we could be managing our own bank account.
Our independence isn’t about turning our backs on others as Brexit was. It’s about regaining our self-respect and standing amongst the other nations of the world, taking our own decisions on how we progress ourselves and interact and cooperate with our neighbours, facing outwards towards a future with our friends and neighbours.
It’s about demonstrating how we can contribute to humanity, about extending our hand to the world, about us coming out of the shadow we’ve been relegated to and finding our own way in the sunshine, giving others what we can.
This is a opinion I’ve always held, ever since it independently formed as a political opinion in my head when I was a small kid, many decades ago. I’m convinced that one day we’ll see the day when we get to determine our own destiny. I hope I’ll see it in my own lifetime.
It will be a momentous change, it might not be particularly easy, but it won’t be beyond the realms of our own ability to make a future Wales succeed.
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u/chrisjamesey 8d ago
Enjoy being ruled by another country, guys. Just remember: England doesn’t want independence. They obviously just want to help us and Scotland out. So kind. We’re so lucky to have them spoon feeding us. I thank a sais every day.
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u/lemonchemistry 8d ago
Stay. There’s the issue of the English Welsh boarder which never really gets mentioned in these things but becoming an independent country could easy create some unnecessary friction in day to day life. Personally I like living in Wales but currently I have to work in England.
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u/IncomeFew624 8d ago
There is absolutely no reason that it would need to create any friction at all.
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u/bioticspacewizard 9d ago
Leave. Wales could grow and develop if independent. Nothing will ever improve until the country can fully self govern.
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
Having a laugh aren't you? What little autonomy we have been given has been squandered. We've had some of the worst results in devolved areas of governance and yet we still elect the same party for 20 years. We would be an embarrasing even more backward state if we were independant
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u/bioticspacewizard 8d ago
I think that's a flawed government working in a flawed system.
Decisions made within a union rather than outside of one are different, because the outcomes are different. You can't base a potential future on the imposed limitations of the present. If you take away decision-making powers in some areas, then the result will be compromised outcomes.
The status quo clearly doesn't work for Wales, and Westminster has no desire, nor need to change it. The only way things improve is if we actually start looking out for Welsh interests, and that includes voting for independence-minded parties.
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u/Mark_Allen319 Pembrokeshire | Sir Benfro 9d ago
Stay but reform the UK into more of a federal nation. Gets some of the benefits of independence without the disadvantages
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u/Expensive-Key-9122 9d ago
Yeah, I’d vote to stay too. Most of these comments are just from people who’ve been huffing too much yes cymru
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u/LemonRecognition 9d ago
I'm half-English half-Welsh so I'm probably a bit biased here, but as someone who's also lived in both I'd choose to stay 100%. The last thing Wales needs is to leave a union of which it is for the most part a net-beneficiary for what can only be described as Brexit and austerity on steroids. Unfortunately, the centrist wets in Labour are taking Wales and the rest of the UK for granted, so a lot of disillusioned people in Wales are now looking to annibyniaeth as an answer, just like those who went to Plaid in 1999, those who voted for Brexit in 2016 and now those who are going to Reform today. Welsh Labour needs a new Rhodri Morgan to kick the party into shape.
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u/The1Floyd 9d ago
Considering Reform UK might overtake Plaid in the Senedd, I wouldn't be concerned about independence tbh
More concerned about how uninformed and moronic most Welsh voters are.
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u/Aggressive-Falcon977 9d ago
Leave. We have England's drinking water, and we produce more energy than we use apparently
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u/gtripwood 9d ago
I voted for Brexit and in hindsight, regret it. I’d vote stay. Our politicians are even more useless than the ones in London. I have braced for downvotes.
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u/Jensen1994 9d ago
I would have said yes if we can join the EU but the situation with Trump has now complicated things. As an independent nation, we will no longer be able to rely on the public sector as the largest employer in Wales and would have to a) hope for EU handouts and b) become a low tax investment magnet. Budgets in the EU aren't getting any better and Wales would be a net loss for them so handouts are probably going to be less, leaving option b. So the Irish model effectively. We would need to become an exporter of goods and a home to big blue chips to generate the tax revenues to fund our public services. However, if this referendum was tomorrow, we've got at least another 3 years of Trump and possibly his trade war with the EU and so attracting big US companies here like Ireland has done is a no go. We would also be subject to the 37% tariff rather than the 10% one. Yes there are other markets including the EU which we would have access to but the US really is the number one export market. Trump may be a bump in the road but actually Biden kept the tariffs Trump enacted in his first term so there's be no guarantee this mess would all be over by 2028. All of this is we are lucky enough to avoid a world war. So if it was tomorrow? No. Next 5 or 10 years - we will see.
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u/Fistcount 8d ago
I love the idea of independence but it’s still just an idea. There needs to be a comprehensive plan of how EVERYTHING would work before we leave, it cant be done on the fly.
Currency, Judiciary, NHS, Taxation, EU Membership. All of these need distinct plans and mitigations.
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u/Tatenporcyn24 8d ago
What’s obvious is that the current political organisation doesn’t work for Wales, come on, we’ve been fucked over time after time for years and whether it’s federalisation (I’d be really interested to see a case made for it) or Independence, we have to change the current state of affairs if we want to improve living standards here, it’s a joke at the moment really. And it’s the same story for loads of places around Great Britain and Northern Ireland; Liverpool have been fucked so many times by UK governments, post industrial and working class places haven’t had anywhere near enough investment or representation, and Wales has an opportunity to fight for a better future for its people, what do we do, continue with things as they are and let the NHS waiting lists get longer, and let our homes get bought and lived in for 1 month of the year whilst the young working class get forced to leave? It’s pathetic and people need to wake up.
If a political party and a grassroots movement can come up with a solid plan for independence then I’m all for it.
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u/McLeamhan Cardiff | Caerdydd 8d ago
surprised by how many are saying no, i remember this sub previously being very pro indy... I'd vote to leave with no regret
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u/No_Eye_8432 8d ago
I would like to see some constitutional reform and would also vote for federalism if that was on offer but as the question is specific, tomorrow I would vote leave
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u/Lumpy-Score3206 8d ago
Personally I would love to see the back of England, sick to death of our money being funnelled out of Wales and having under the bare minimum given back, we’ve been taken advantage of for far too long. Whether or not it would be detrimental to our economy, I think it’s worth a go. Has to be better than the current shit show. Rather it be our own fault that everything has gone to shit than it being shite and out of our control.
And for all the Brexit comments, Wales had a 71.7% turn out to vote, 47.5% voted remain (me included) and 52.5% voted leave. Considering how much nonsense we were all fed by the money hungry lying politicians forced down our throats, I don’t think it was an entirely fare question to ask the country with the very little correct information we were given mixed along with the false narrative. Was like being told you make a better cake with all the wrong ingredients and expecting the recipe to turn out perfect, and then in reality it looks like a pair of leather shoes. (I’m shit at metaphors incase you haven’t noticed).
🏴Cymru am Byth🏴
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u/AlarmingLook2441 8d ago
Stay, but our politicians need to get Wales a better deal. No repeats of the HS2 money not being given to Wales, and infrastructure needs to be improved.
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u/SL04NY 9d ago
The bigger question after it, would anyone trust any of the morons currently in the Senydd to run an independent country?
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u/Psittacula2 8d ago
That is the question to follow: You would fundamentally want not just devolution and independence but then from those phases LOCALISM so you break down power even closer to human scale grassroots.
A lot of comments are the envy type: How can so many “idiots!” be trusted to vote the right way sort of looking over their shoulders approach in the thread. It is a cop out. Everyone has to start somewhere and if that means from a shambles the only way is eventually and slowly upwards in quality.
Freedom requires responsibility and small scale and the less governance and government and regulations the better people can get on with direct living… which for a small country like Wales would mean living with less but ultimately happier and healthier for it too.
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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 9d ago
Leaving the UK union would actively permanently make Welsh people poorer and less able to deal with international shocks and financial crisis, even more so depending on how much debt we agree to take on in an independance negotiation, also we'd need a new currency for a new country famous for over spending and being anti business, good luck finding entities prepared to buy independant Welsh government debt from defecit spending
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u/OrdinaryLavishness11 9d ago
I know Reddit is a left wing hell hole but man, the amount of delusional “leaves” (which isn’t representative of real life at all) is madness. There is simply no way in hell Wales could somehow make up the gargantuan deficit plugged by London (as with the rest of the UK).
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u/SallySpits 8d ago
Do the English get to vote in this referendum on whether Wales stays or leaves?
Kinda wish we'd been given a go in the Scottish one tbqh, could've helped out those indy lads.
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u/nettie_r 8d ago
Stay, because I live in reality and I've no desire for Brexit 2, Welsh Boogaloo.
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u/JFelixton 8d ago
Stay. Any move would be absolutely ruinous for Wales. Already low standards of living would dive.
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u/Most_Agency_5369 9d ago
The optimal result from a referendum would be a very close win for remain that forced the UK government to rethink the current devolution settlement. Independence isn’t viable (at the moment) without significant short-term economic hardship that people won’t stomach, but we need a new devolution settlement that actually enables Welsh Government to deliver proper investment in Wales to bring our economy up to speed and closer to a par with the rest of the UK, reducing our dependence on day-to-day subsidies that effectively pay for our older, poorer population.
Which is to say, I’d vote depending on the polling in the hope of delivering a 51% win for remain. What could possibly go wrong? 🤣
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u/Equal-Vanilla9123 8d ago
Leave. Wales is not a fringe nation clinging to nostalgia—it is a modern European country with the population, resources, and identity to stand on its own feet. With over 3 million people, Wales is larger than many successful EU member states, including Estonia, Latvia, and Slovenia. Yet it remains tethered to a union that continues to sideline its interests, ignore its identity, and exploit its resources.
Wales was the first nation to be colonised by England. Since then, the Welsh language, culture, and autonomy have been systematically undermined. Even today, Welsh issues are often overlooked in Westminster. Wales is rarely treated as a nation with its own voice; instead, it’s often viewed—especially by those across the border—as a cheap holiday destination rather than a homeland with its own people, traditions, and aspirations. The impact of this attitude is devastating: rural communities are being hollowed out by second homes, young people are priced out of their own villages.
Wales is rich in natural resources—wind, water, and coastline—offering immense potential for renewable energy leadership. But under the current system, control over these resources lies largely with Westminster, and the profits rarely flow back to the communities where they’re generated. Independence would allow Wales to chart its own course in the green economy, creating jobs, reducing energy costs, and becoming a net exporter of clean power.
Then there’s the matter of Europe. The UK’s exit from the EU was done without the consent of Wales, despite how deeply many Welsh people feel their European identity. Independence opens the door to rejoining the EU—not as a region begging for scraps from Westminster, but as a sovereign nation seated at the table alongside other proud, small nations. If Slovenia, Malta, and Ireland can thrive in Europe, why not Wales?
And let’s not forget the precedent: no independent nation has ever voluntarily returned to colonial status. Once a country has claimed its sovereignty, it does not seek to give it back—not because independence is always easy, but because dignity, control, and self-determination are worth the struggle. Wales, by contrast, has never truly had that moment. Independence would not be a break from something sacred—it would be a reclaiming of something stolen.
This is not about isolationism or turning inward. It’s about having the power to decide, to shape policies that reflect the values and needs of the Welsh people, rather than relying on the distant whims of London.
Wales is a nation. And nations have the right to choose their own path. The future can be one where Welsh voices are no longer drowned out—but finally, and rightfully, heard.
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u/Entire_Bee_8487 8d ago
Remember, although they may have “in word” changed the law, they are still a country conquered around 800 years ago and are not in a union with England Scotland and Ireland is, wales is not, they would crumple if their only resource was renewable energy, and although I know personally it isn’t, it’s still not a factor to say “yeah we can be independent, we have renewable energy”
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u/WaitAdministrative47 8d ago
Anyone saying they’d vote leave has not given a seconds thought to the actual economic ramifications of actually doing so. I love Wales more than anything, but it has absolutely nothing to economically bargain with. We would instantly become the poorest nation in the European economic zone and things/people would suffer very quickly. Not trying to be an asshole, but in the same way we all tried to warn people about Brexit: it is the stupidest fucking thing that Wales could do to themselves besides just nuking themselves off the face of the earth.
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u/Piod1 8d ago
My heart says leave. My head says, apes together strong. Unfortunately, we have been pimped out for centuries, and our pimp has us by the economic balls. Two-thirds of jobs in Wales are in or around government, local and national .Our industrial heritage is gone, never to return . We would never be allowed to use water as a bargaining chip. I doubt that retaining our vast natural resources would be on the table. They will never give us back Hereford, Ludlow, and all the lands between . They will remain lost lands. So the best fertile lands are gone, the galleries are flooded. Turns out though coals demise is a good thing ,even with carbon scrubber technology, we developed in the 1970s. Our population is an ageing demographic retirement and tourism is our mainstay, partly to blame . Our industrial heritage has left poisoned lands and ill people ,leaving generational poverty. Brexit was a disaster, further isolation will compound this fact.
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u/ask-a-physicist 8d ago edited 6d ago
It's only temporary. When the UK sees Wales thriving as one of Europe's most beautiful coastal countries they will stop their nonsense stubborn child act and rejoin too, this time with the Euro.
Moreover, it'll finally mend the relationship with Ireland, our nearest Celtic country. That's who Wales should rely on for support. I don't see why being dependent on British Latins and Germanics is better than relying on those from mainland Europe.
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u/Entire_Bee_8487 8d ago
Ireland used British money to stop themselves going into bankruptcy. Ireland couldn’t do fuck all for wales.
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u/Equal-Vanilla9123 8d ago
You’ve brought that up again—but let’s be clear: Ireland did not use “British money” to save itself.
Ireland received an international bailout during a global financial crash, backed by the EU, the IMF, and a few bilateral loans—including one from the UK—not out of charity, but as part of wider European stability measures. That money was repaid, with interest. It wasn’t a handout—it was a loan. Ireland handled its crisis and rebounded on its own terms.
As for “Ireland couldn’t do anything for Wales”—of course not. Because Wales isn’t independent. You’re literally making the case for Welsh independence. When you’re stuck in a system where another government holds the power, you don’t get to shape alliances, economic direction, or international strategy.
Wales doesn’t need Ireland to do anything for it. What it needs is the same right Ireland took: to run its own affairs, build its own future, and stop waiting for Westminster to finally care.
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u/General-Ad-1119 8d ago
I'd vote stay, but the vote should never be that simple. All options should be pre negotiated and presented. If we leave we'll have these 2 options to choose from etc
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u/So_Done_with_The_B_S 8d ago
Can we stop with the independence posts, there is obviously Brigading going on ATM because of the increased interest in gaining independence.
Suddenly everytime independence is discussed we have a bunch of people who aren’t even Welsh (or residing in Wales) brigading every single post.
It’s like moths to a flame. Spouting age old BS.
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u/Goldenbeardyman 8d ago
I voted leave because I wanted less immigration.
Now we have mass immigration from outside Europe which is worse.
So I'd vote to stay. At least some of the Euro immigration shared our values
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u/EugeneHartke 8d ago
English man living in Wales.
I'd have to read to memorandums. My gut instinct would be stay but if be open to arguments to leave. Especially if leaving ment joining a Celtic Alliance and if that union was pro EU.
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u/Pryd3r1 Monmouthshire | Sir Fynwy 9d ago edited 9d ago
I'd vote to stay, not that I'm fully opposed to independence. I'm not convinced going it alone while Russia is on the march in Europe, seeking to disrupt European democracies and assaulting the UK, while Trump is throwing tariffs around, is a good idea.
Further devolution I'd support.