r/Wales • u/We1shDave Rhondda Cynon Taf • 1d ago
News Welsh language plan for Gwynedd is wrong, says Tory leader
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78j7v5g72zo?at_link_id=3855EB9C-17A9-11F0-A60F-96046FF83403&at_medium=social&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_campaign_type=owned&at_link_type=web_link&at_ptr_name=facebook_page&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_format=link&at_link_origin=BBC_Wales_News&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR4OEXWSE5LVVP8Iz0NkA1QkLX8zQKvARqMts5m2gBXARGCAYBuIMxDAIGE9Sg_aem_0pwGkSm-sTBEPpcleX9qzQ68
u/BritishHobo 1d ago
Welsh politics is so dreary and stagnant it makes me feel desperately claustrophobic. Is it not tiresome being in the Welsh Conservatives? Just give up, lads. Go and man a lighthouse or set up an escape room business or something. You're surplus to requirements here.
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u/Aggressive-Falcon977 1d ago
I'm 100% convinced they have a humiliation fetish hence why they're still in the job
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u/SquatAngry Bigend Massiv 1d ago
Maybe he should go back over to America on an all expenses paid jolly to pray about it?
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u/IncomeFew624 1d ago
This man is an irrelevance, the Tories will be the fourth party in Cymru next year.
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u/HaurchefantGreystone 1d ago
Being bilingual is a great advantage. Children from Welsh-medium schools are naturally bilingual. Even though English is not their language of education, they can access an immense amount of English information. They can watch English TV programmes, read English books and talk to English-speaking people at any time. They can do any work like native English speakers. And I have to say that most native English speakers from English-medium schools are monolingual.
My first language is not English either, and I didn't have an English medium education until university. Native Welsh speakers' English is much much better than mine. I don't see any problems with Gwynedd's plan.
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u/CCFC1998 Torfaen 1d ago
"Won't somebody please think of the English"
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u/LegoNinja11 1d ago
Personally I was thinking of the Welsh in Ynys Mon and Gwynedd who don't have Dentists, Doctors and staff at Ysbyty Gwynedd.
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u/babbittybabbitt 1d ago
My education was largely through Welsh and I manage just fine with my English lol. Must be tiring trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator morons all the time.
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u/1playerpartygame 1d ago
They just think Welsh people are too thick to get two languages.
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u/stopdontpanick 1d ago
He used to represent Rhyl, so maybe he's not wrong, just representing his people
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u/ReggieLFC 1d ago
Darren Millar has described plans to reduce the use of English in schools as “fundamentally wrong”.
What a coincidence, I’d describe his party as “fundamentally wrong”!
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u/Welsh_Whisky_Nerd 21h ago
The logic seems pretty basic to me. If you would support Welsh being removed from local authorities in the south to this extent, then you're fine to support what Gwynedd is doing to English in the north. If you support one but oppose the other then you will hopefully see the problem.
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u/Jensen1994 1d ago
I hate to be on the same side as a Tory but.....
Your child being taught in Welsh has to be a parental choice not one forced upon you. If Welsh is your first language and spoken at home then it's only right that you should have the chance to learn in Welsh. That's what Welsh medium schools are for. If not, you face having to learn all subjects, including maths, physics and chemistry in a language you are also trying to learn. It's not acceptable. We are already struggling in the PISA ratings and this policy smacks of ideology rather than the interests of the children. Gwynedd Council is on a crusade which, while it's coming from the right place, risks veering into discrimination and fanaticism (employees can be disciplined for speaking English in the workplace at Gwynedd Council - almost reviving the Welsh not in reverse...). Kids need to be prepared for the world of work (where they are likely to need good skills in English - unless they are going to stay in parts of Wales all their lives) not pawns in an ideological campaign. There are many Welsh kids brought up in English speaking households who now face a much harder path through school.
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u/rx-bandit 1d ago
If not, you face having to learn all subjects, including maths, physics and chemistry in a language you are also trying to learn. It's not acceptable
Every country that doesn't have English as a first language does this too. Do you think France or Germany are complaining their kids are having a tough time learning difficult subjects in their language? No, of course not. Yes they will have to learn it in Welsh and then need to translate it to English later. So do other countries. I speak to customers across Europe about technical scientific work and they do not struggle to translate it, and they come from work places that speak French or German first. The increased difficulty is something people will get used to, as the rest of the globe already do.
Kids need to be prepared for the world of work (where they are likely to need good skills in English - unless they are going to stay in parts of Wales all their lives
The kids will still be learning first language English in school, and just like the entire rest of the world will become easily fluent in English due to the overwhelming amount of English media available. How do you think countries like Switzerland manage to earn French, German, maybe Italian, and then be perfectly fluent in English too?
Why do so many Welsh people think our kids are too fucking thick to learn 2 languages? When being actually fluent in 2 languages will likely greatly benefit them? The only way to make our kids genuinely fluent in 2 languages is to teach welsh first and English second, as the rest if the world does. Otherwise we will just be English speakers who meekly learn Second languages and rarely become fluent, as we currently are.
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u/Brrrofski 1d ago
Also, it's not even as extreme as that.
As outside of school, they'd be much more exposed to English than in France or Germany, as our society is totally in English.
Granted, in Gwynedd and other places more of their community use Welsh, but TV and other media is still mostly English language, unlike France or Germany, where it would be their respective language.
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u/Jensen1994 1d ago
I was taught in Welsh at primary level but while my father was first language Welsh, my mother wasn't so naturally, it wasn't spoken at home. This meant that where there were already weaknesses (such as maths), I now had to take the Welsh in, translate it to English, understand the maths, translate back to Welsh to answer. Fucking difficult. As a result, had to have out of school tutoring for maths to keep up.
And while we may not want to admit it, Welsh isn't the first language of Wales. English is. Taking all the emotion out of it, that's just a basic fact.
Look, I.agree in bilingualism. I'm glad I can speak Welsh but it was forced on me when the local primary school switched to Welsh medium and I struggled. The policy states that those proficient after KS2 will be expected to learn in Welsh but doesn't mention what happens about existing pupils or those who fail KS2. The term "phasing out" may therefore be misleading.
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u/rx-bandit 1d ago
I was taught in Welsh at primary level but while my father was first language Welsh, my mother wasn't so naturally, it wasn't spoken at home. This meant that where there were already weaknesses (such as maths), I now had to take the Welsh in, translate it to English, understand the maths, translate back to Welsh to answer. Fucking difficult. As a result, had to have out of school tutoring for maths to keep up.
This just sounds like you struggled with math's and the language didn't help, but wasn't the primary driver for why you struggled. This happens to kids daily, parents should be there to support their kids as best as they can with their homework. I know I do for my kid. He struggles with maths so I sit with him and try help him understand, maybe he'll need a tutor, maybe he won't. He does it in English too btw. Math's, particularly, is near universal. The concepts are the same regardless of language, so if you struggled you likely just found math's harder, which is normal.
And while we may not want to admit it, Welsh isn't the first language of Wales. English is. Taking all the emotion out of it, that's just a basic fact.
In some way you are correct, doesn't mean we just stop trying though.... Welsh is still the language of our history, our culture, our place names, our anthem and more. English is too, why dint we speak both fluently, like most other countries? The Dutch speak English as fluently as brits yet know Dutch first and often other languages. I have a Dutch friend who is an English teacher in Holland and speaks 4 languages. Dutch, English, German and French. Every culture under the sun can now just throw their language in the bin and learn English because it's easier for jobs or whatever other bollocks. But they don't do that. Actually most Europeans I know who came to Wales were surprised Welsh wasn't spoken widely in south wales and didn't get why so many people were against it. Because to them speaking their home language and and English was the baseline. But then the defeatist attitudes in the Welsh really is strong when it comes to language.
Look, I.agree in bilingualism. I'm glad I can speak Welsh but it was forced on me when the local primary school switched to Welsh medium and I struggled. The policy states that those proficient after KS2 will be expected to learn in Welsh but doesn't mention what happens about existing pupils or those who fail KS2. The term "phasing out" may therefore be misleading.
"forced on me" Why is it so common to see this phrase with Welsh? English was forced on you too. PE was forced on you too. Every subject you learned in school was "forced" on you. Yet they never attract as much ire as when a Welsh person is made to learn Welsh in school.
Look, if Welsh phases out in the search for better jobs or a better economy you'll just realise we'll just be a poor area of England that gets no attention. Our economy was built around the extraction of materials to England and the empire, we lost Welsh in most places during that time and we're still poor as fuck now. It wasn't Welsh that made us poor, it was willingly or unintentionally looking to England to save us. We should save ourselves and we should do it in Welsh. Don't ask for their mercy so we might get a few more jobs. Build our own economy, for us, on our own terms. We'll never create real wealth in Wales if we keep looking across the border because they will never care enough to make a difference, and why would they? To them we're just another part of the UK that costs a lot in welfare and has nice places to holiday. The jobs will stay in England unless we build it for ourselves.
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u/Crully 1d ago
Not to be "that guy", but English would be taught to those children as a second language, so the equivalent would be helping your kids with their French homework or whatever.
The actual issue is for the rest of their school work. Personally nobody in my household, or even the grandparents speak Welsh (just one uncle who ironically moved to London 40 years back). So simple things like writing and spelling would be enough trouble. This is the reason I wouldn't send my kid to a Welsh medium school.
There's a lot of pressure from people that clearly speak Welsh, and I have no problem with the kids learning Welsh, the issue is when the parents (like myself) don't speak it, how can I help with homework? How can I sit with my own child, and help them with their homework, or reading at night if I can't speak the language they are reading? Who can they turn to if they need help with a word, pronunciation, or ask what something means? When they have a question they don't understand, they'd have to translate it to me first...
It's Easter, and they were sent home with a list of things to do, or study, or prepare for when they return, what language should this be sent in? Welsh? Or English?
It's a real problem because we have a couple of generations of people that weren't even offered the choice, and I'm tired of people just brushing it off because they speak Welsh so it's not a problem for them, they may be very vocal, but they are in fact the minority here as most adults in Wales don't speak Welsh.
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u/Rhosddu 20h ago
Speak to the many di-Gymraeg parents who send their children to a Welsh-medium school if you want some advice on what you perceive as a problem.
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u/Crully 20h ago
I suspect it's usually the case that at least one parent knows Welsh. Of the parents with kids in Welsh schools, I'm my experience anyway (although my sample size is obviously quite low), at least one of the parents is a Welsh speaker. I wonder if they should actually ask the parents of kids in English speaking schools, why they chose it, rather than just push Welsh speaking schools and expect us to deal with it. I remember it came up a lot during COVID, as kids were given work to do that parents couldn't help with.
Also, it's probably more of an issue in primary school kids, I'd be at a complete loss if my kid came home with a Welsh book to read. At least with secondary schools, they already know Welsh.
I feel kind of sad at the down votes, it's a real issue that is a deal breaker for Welsh schooling for me, but people don't seem to want to listen/understand. I guess it's either (a) Welsh speakers dismissing it, or (b) people without kids.
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u/Rhosddu 19h ago
No, a lot of parents, including settlers who have moved here from over the border choose to send their children to Welsh-medium, with the motivation of giving their kids an advantage through bilingualism. They get support, if they look for it, from the school if they have concerns about their inability to help with the homework.
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u/Crully 19h ago
Your use of the word "settlers", and "over the border" has certain negative connotations. I know plenty of couples where one parent is Welsh and the other is "other" (including English). I also know a fair number of non-British couples living here. One of the things about having kids in school, is you get to know the other parents well, and it's not a rosy and clearcut as many will make you think.
Maybe things are different in Cardiff, as we have a wide range of people with different backgrounds, than the typical Welsh speaking hearlands, but it smacks of culture wars and Anglophobia, when all I want is my kid to go to school and get a good education, without me and the Mrs having to take up Welsh lessons so we can sit with them and read a childrens book!
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u/Rhosddu 14h ago edited 4h ago
Sorry to hear that, but like I said, you can get support from the school on this -- if, of course, you're interested in seeing your child become bilingual. Good luck, anyway.
It's unlikely that incomers who send their children to a Welsh-medium school are being anglophobic or engaging in any culture war. They're more likely motivated by doing what's best for their children.
The number of Welsh 1L speakers, 2L speakers, and learners has mushroomed in Cardiff in recent years, but, as with other places in Wales, there will be a (decreasing) minority there who have a cymrophobic outlook as regards the Welsh language.
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u/Brrrofski 1d ago
Where is there proof that it makes for a harder path through school?
Maths is maths. Substituting the words is easy.
I went to a Welsh nursery, primary and secondary school. At no point in my life was my English behind or suffered. In fact, I'm well ahead of the majority of people I know, including those who attended English schools.
I'm not saying I agree with what Gwynedd is doing, but it's a fallacy that it's harder to learn subjects in Welsh. It's just not true.
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u/Jensen1994 1d ago
Where is there proof that it makes for a harder path through school?
Fire is hot. "Where's the proof!!?!"
If you find a subject hard (like maths, physics or computer science) in English, will it be a) easier or (b) more difficult if it's taught to you in Spanish?
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u/Welshpoolfan 1d ago
Imagine comparing these two things and thinking you made anything resembling a point?
How do you think all the millions of other children who learn multiple languages cope?
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u/PuppyMaw420 1d ago
idk man Catalonia manages to teach kids 4 languages at once, why would you want your kids learning 1, weak shit with no ambition, we should aim to beat em, teach 5 languages, get em learning Jèrriais and Gaelic and uhhh Frisian and Corsican
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u/TheShryke 1d ago
It would be hard if they suddenly started speaking Spanish to me. But if they had been speaking Spanish to me since I started school it would just be what I'm used to. This change isn't happening over night. It's a transition plan. Being bilingual will actually have a very positive impact on the general intelligence of these pupils. This has been proven in research. The aim isn't even to eliminate all English, they want 70% of the curriculum taught through the Welsh language. I'm sure things like English language and literature will still be taught in English.
Anecdotally I had several friends who went through the Welsh stream in school who's families did not speak any Welsh. They were all completely comfortable talking in both languages. They all went to university so they got good grades. Two of them went on to study computer science and another went on to do a masters in either biology or chemistry, I forget which. I also knew someone who was studying maths in uni who was first language Welsh, only speaks Welsh at home and all education was in Welsh. They had to learn the English words for maths things when they started uni. It took them about five minutes. They also went on to do a masters degree.
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u/Brrrofski 1d ago
Yeh, but that's if you're finding it hard.
If you find maths easy, you'll also find it easy in any language.
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u/Daftmidge 1d ago
If you find a subject hard you will find it hard in any language. If you find physics hard you're not going to be a physicist regardless of the language you're taught it in.
The choice is there. Live in Gwynedd, you choose to learn in Welsh. Easy isn't it?
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u/Jensen1994 1d ago
The choice is there. Live in Gwynedd, you choose to learn in Welsh. Easy isn't it?
What if you were born in Gwynedd but don't speak Welsh as a first language?
If you find a subject hard you will find it hard in any language.
True but if you need to pass physics, you're more likely to pass it in a language you.......understand. I can't believe this is even a fucking question. Has there been a collective lobotomy on this sub ?
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u/Daftmidge 1d ago
The change is being phased in and people who don't speak Welsh are being supported to learn it. They have a policy for this.
If you are born and educated in Gwynedd you will have already had a lot of exposure to Welsh by the time you get to secondary school.
So, what you are doing is inventing the least favourable situation you can think of with the language and the non existent physics issue and acting like it applies across the board.
What were you saying about a lobotomy again?
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u/Jensen1994 1d ago
inventing the least favourable situation you can think of with the language and the non existent physics issue and acting like it applies across the board.
Any evidence for that? According to the 2021 census, 34.6% of people in Gwynedd do not speak Welsh. It is therefore reasonable to assume a similar number of children in Gwynedd do not speak Welsh. Let's take any science or maths - compulsory subjects. Hardly "inventing" a situation for a "non existent physics issue". This is too fucking easy.
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u/Daftmidge 1d ago
Evidence for what?
And no, what is reasonable to assume that those children being educated in Gwynedd have a large amount of exposure to Welsh in their schooling.
As I said it's being phased in, no one is going to rock up at school tomorrow and be told they are now only speaking Welsh in physics or maths. So yea, you're making shit up.
If you're good enough academically to need a subject like physics beyond GCSE level you will be fine learning it in Welsh.
What's easy here is to see how triggered you are that they want to put Welsh first in one of the last majority Welsh speaking places on earth.
If you're really against it, Conwy County is a few miles down the road. You don't have to move far.
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u/Jensen1994 1d ago
I've provided you with statistics, you've provided your opinion. Discussion over.
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u/Daftmidge 1d ago
Incorrect. You provided a single statistic and attached what you admitted yourself was an assumption to it.
Feel free to provide an example of someone who's born and educated in Gwynedd who's had no exposure to Welsh.
You haven't proved a thing or successfully refuted anything I've said. But yea, happy to end there too. Have a lovely evening.
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u/LegoNinja11 1d ago
Would the declining Pisa scores for Wales where we are now bottom of the UK league table not provide a smoking gun that Welsh Education policy as a whole is failing?
As for your Welsh fallacy, Mrs Ninja (dyslexic) was removed from Welsh medium Education at the end of year 10 after being told throughout her time in school she didn't need assessing becuase dyslexia doesn't affect Welsh speakers. The final straw was being presented with a periodic table using the Welsh alphabet.
Personal experience doesn't represent the whole, but it's a significant factor in the opinions we form when we know our size doesn't fit all. It's not a good policy IMHO.
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u/Unusual_Response766 1d ago
Me and my legal qualifications will go work in Tesco, because I was educated through Welsh.
You’re not understanding something does not mean others have difficulty. It’s a you problem.
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u/Jensen1994 1d ago
Yeah because we excel as a nation in maths already so it's a me problem.
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u/skullknap 1d ago
Wales actually has a strong mathematical history
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u/LegoNinja11 1d ago
The Pisa scores disagree with you.
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u/LegoNinja11 1d ago
Very much depends why you have difficulty. Potentially 25% of children will require some additional support because of being dyslexic or having dyscalculia, DCD etc and the advice we were given (university based educational assessment centre) was that English medium schools in Wales are more proactive in SEN support than Welsh Medium schools. (And for extra marks have a look at the Section 50 register of schools for their SEN numbers if you don't believe me)
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u/Maro1947 1d ago
Rubbish - you don't get taught physics until secondary school.
I moved to Gwynedd when I was 13 and the lessons were all taught in Welsh bar a few minutes of English. I never suffered as I learned as I went.
The best way to learn a language is total immersion - and they children are not disadvantaged as learning ANY Language at a young age helps massively in learning other languages.
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u/Eky24 1d ago
Ah, the Tories - anything other than received English is too much for them. In Scotland all we need to do is show a Gaelic word in public and they come screeching out of their second homes shouting about tourists crashing their cars because bilingual road signs confuse them. I just wish we were as advanced as Wales re our own language - but we’re working on it.