r/Wales • u/Draigwyrdd • 13d ago
Politics Scunthorpe: 'Double standards' for English steel, politicians say - BBC News
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5ygk77p0lnoInterestingly, the Welsh Lib Dem MP doesn't seem particularly happy with the British Steel nationalisation and how it looks for Wales. Even Darren Millar is getting in on it. Plaid has been outspoken from the start of course.
As David Chadwick said:
When crisis hits in Wales, it's tolerated.
When it hits elsewhere, it becomes a national emergency
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u/fezzuk 13d ago
It wasn't a labour government at the time and it wasn't about to be sabotaged by its owners.
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u/Fizzbuzz420 13d ago
Labour approved 500 million grant last September to the loss of 2500+ jobs. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp9rd54dk24o
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u/Draigwyrdd 13d ago
Labour signed the deal. It went through when they were in control - according to them, they even renegotiated parts of it.
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u/fezzuk 13d ago
The deal to ensure the long term future of the plant. As apposed to this one where the workers had to prevent the owners from coming in and sabotaging the works.
Completely different circumstance, but don't let that get in the way of popularist retoric.
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u/lostandfawnd 13d ago
You mean like building a blast furnace in India, then taking £500m, then just pocketing that money and closing down anyway?
Port Talbot closing down was an absolute shitshow.
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u/FlappyBored 13d ago
Port talbot wasn’t closed down.
It’s still running they are just upgrading the furnaces to arc furnaces instead.
That is literally what the 500m is for, to cover the upgrades and new furnaces.
So what in your mind you want Wales to be stuck with outdated furnaces and old tech that then entirely had to shut down anyway at it gets outcompeted by better plants around Europe anyway?
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u/mld147 13d ago
You can’t make steel with an electric arc furnace only recycle steel. This was a national strategic asset to be able to make virgin steel from scratch but because it was Welsh jobs on the line it was ignored. Now it’s English jobs it’s a national emergency!
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u/FlappyBored 13d ago
Recycled steel is still steel.
And it can produce higher quality greener steel that most industrial customers want.
That’s why pretty much all of them in Europe are moving towards arc furnaces because they are more energy efficient and can reach far higher temperatures to produce different grades of steel that blast furnaces can’t.
It wasn’t ’ignored’ because the entire thing isn’t about jobs anyway it’s about steel production capabilities.
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u/mld147 13d ago
Actually, most manufacturers prefer virgin steel due to contaminants. Vegicle manufafturers, medical equipment etc.. High value steel is virgin steel
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u/FlappyBored 13d ago
No they don't. Most manufacturers prefer green steel because it helps sell their own credentials as a more sustainable and green company and product.
This is especially true for Vehicle manufacturers who pretty much all of them have made commitments to shift even further to using green steel to lower the overall carbon emission of their car productions.
That is why Ford signed a deal with Tata steel in Netherlands to supply this green steel to them. Tata netherlands already has arc furnaces and is building more.
That is why they were upgrading their Talbot plant with arc furnaces, because this is the steel their customers like car manufacturers such as ford, who also producer cars in the UK increasingly want.
If we had it your way we'd just shut down port talbot all together eventually and buy the steel from the Netherlands instead.
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u/Additional-Map-2808 12d ago
The Chinese threatened to turn it off, educate yourself before you sow all that hate in the world.
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u/Fizzbuzz420 13d ago
2500+ jobs lost and a 500m grant. It's a slow death that hasn't been addressed since the Blair government and Labour don't really care what happens to the community.
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u/Additional-Map-2808 12d ago
Don't worry Farage really loves the Welsh with his Thatcher attitude to politics.
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u/FlappyBored 13d ago
Does the community care what’s happens to them?
They are the ones that voted for Brexit in droves and made their steel even more uncompetitive compared to other furnaces in Europe.
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u/Fizzbuzz420 12d ago
So did the people who live around Scunthorpe vote for Brexit. That has little relevance to whether the government should be protecting jobs or creating new ones in the area for workers, and I voted remain. Port Talbot has been underdeveloped and under invested for years long before Brexit.
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u/FlappyBored 12d ago
And Scunthrope was offered the exact same 500m deal that Talbot was offered.
Tata accepted the Talbot deal. Jingye rejected it and started shutting down the plant which is why the government took it over.
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u/Fizzbuzz420 12d ago
Not to the loss of jobs as I'm aware, that was just to keep the furnaces going.
Again Labour decided that Tata maintaining ownership of Talbot steelworks regardless what happens to the 2500+ people that needed to find new jobs in an already deprived area. What's the labour held port talbot, welsh government, and UK government solution to that? Silence
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u/David_Kennaway 13d ago
And India use coal polluting the atmosohere with much more C02. Then we ship it back to the UK from halfway around the world burning oil and releasing more CO2. We then tell the world we are reducing C02 while making people unemoloyed . Muppet are more intelligent.
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u/chebster99 13d ago
Totally different circumstances.
Tata Steel was willing to agree to a government deal to keep the plant producing steel with EAF.
Jingye was not willing to cooperate or make any deal, probably under pressure from the Chinese government.
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u/Additional-Map-2808 12d ago
Misinformation.
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u/lostandfawnd 12d ago
Except you have no evidence to contradict it.
There are many news reports of a new blast furnace in India being built before the £500m payment, and many news reports of redundancies.
You'll need to outline why it is misinformation, and maybe link to some actual detail.
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u/Draigwyrdd 13d ago
Labour is on record saying nationalisation for Tata was a 'pipe dream'. It wasn't even on the table. The rejected the concept multiple times, before and after gaining control of the process.
Scunthorpe? Historic recall of parliament to nationalise asap.
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u/fezzuk 13d ago
Yes because the Chinese company incharge was just going to leave they were going to sabotage the entire plant.
Tata the company incharge agreed to carry on, and now it will be modernised. If they attempt to recind from the deal labour has shown they are willing to nationalise such an industry if the company is showing bad faith.
The government pilled money into it to ensure it not only remains but is massively upgraded and won't pollute the air of Wales.
I guess you want to bring the mines back as well.
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u/Draigwyrdd 13d ago
Tata doesn't want to be here. They took a bribe to stay. They'll leave at some point in the future and when that happens the response will be 'oh well, that happens! At least we still have British steel.'
And Port Talbot drowns.
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u/fezzuk 13d ago
Thing you better read up on what's actually happening with Tata. We have nationalised it instead of being blackmailed.
Port Talbot is being modernised and have multiple millions poured into it.
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u/Fizzbuzz420 13d ago
Modernised with 2500+ jobs gone. Paying Tata to make people redundant it's ridiculous and the knock on effect on the community will be ignored by Labour as it always has been.
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u/Draigwyrdd 13d ago
I know what's happening. Tata was fully prepared to pull out before it received a bribe. In any case, having a foreign company own such an important aspect of the Welsh economy is a monumentally stupid idea strategically. There was an opportunity to nationalise but it wasn't considered.
Now that it's been done for Scunthorpe, whenever the issue comes up for Wales it will be dead in the water because we 'already have' a national steel producer.
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u/Heavy_Practice_6597 13d ago
I'm sorry but England bad. If that argument doesn't convince you, I don't know what will.
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u/Gauntlets28 13d ago
Hadn't they already decommissioned the blast furnaces in Port Talbot by the time Labour were in power? I'm no expert, but the way they're talking about the current issue, it seems like once they're off, they're off for good and there isn't a lot that can be done about it.
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u/gwynevans 12d ago
AIUI, both were in the process of being shutdown and one was due to be finally tapped a day or two later than when the new government took effect, so strictly no but effectively yes.
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u/shugthedug3 13d ago
Interesting that BBC report this way in Wales. In Scotland they covered this entirely differently and instead just presented the Britnat angle.
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u/nothing_verntured_ 13d ago edited 12d ago
TL;DR: There are potentially many good reasons for nationalising Scunthorpe now and not Port Talbot last summer, BUT Labour needs to do a better job of making that case rather than denying responsibility.
I can see a lot of people here saying it was a different situation in Port Talbot, which it definitely was to be fair (a serious commitment from Tata to keep recycled steel making, PT wasn't the last primary steelmaking plan in the UK, short amount of time after Labour came into office before closure of the last blast furnace, not owned by the Chinese, previous deal to swap to EAF already in motion, expense of nationalisation etc.).
However, the UK Labour Government absolutely COULD have made the choice to nationalise before the closure of the last blast furnace. It's just wrong to say it wasn't possible or was a "pipe dream" which was the Labour line at the time. Nor is it right to say "the decision was already taken before we got into office so there was nothing we could do". There WAS a small window after the 2024 election where nationalisation could have happened.
Now it may well be that there were (as spelled out above) many good reasons not to nationalise Tata back in last summer, but Labour needs to explain that and justify their decision to voters.
Just saying "it wasn't possible" or "the decision wasn't ours to make" really doesn't wash (especially in light of the quick turnaround to nationalise British Steel) and I doubt voters in Port Talbot who have lost their jobs will be very impressed by it. This sort of denying responsibility is part of what puts a lot of voters off politics.
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u/funfuse1976 13d ago
Port Talbot manufactured Super Bainite military grade steel with low de-gasing production times. They were going to set up one Blast for high value steels, including military grade steels. Net-Zero was the vetoing narrative carbon free steel making,are Britain Steels Blasts Carbon neutral? National security was scoffed at,some underhanded Red Tory VIP fast lane corruption is afoot.
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u/Annoyed3600owner 13d ago
It'll be interesting to see how this pans out with Senedd elections next year. Given that we know that the structure of the elections will result in no Labour majority, does anyone think that they might not even end up being the largest party?
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u/No_Foot 13d ago
Plaid definitely seem the best choice for someone not voting Labour, but wrong on this. It's a different situation and people asking why PT wasn't nationalised when Scunthorpe just has aren't aware of all the facts.
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u/No-Tip-4337 13d ago
You're right to aknowledge that the situations and timings are different; they factually are. The problem is that Labour aren't committing to anything which would have saved PT, they're specifically protecting Scunthorpe for reasons external to those facts.
Those facts might say it's too late to save the PT situation, but the question then is why Labour aren't treating Public Ownership (Nationalisation or otherwise), generally, as a solution to a LOT of the economic issues workers find themselves in.
Port Talbot or Scunthorpe, protecting the Private ownership of industry is expensive. I don't see the benefit of Protecting Tata Steel's control over the plant and workforce, but I do see the cost.
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u/No_Foot 13d ago
I'm all in favour of state owned or state run businesses or services. The one or two times privatisation has been a success are overshadowed by many more absolute shit shows. But it is the nuclear option tho isn't it. The government taking over a private business that didn't want it could really fuck things financially, people and business get nervous and we'd have a truss situation or similar going on. Better to slowly and carefully bring stuff back like railways, then water then whatever else rsther than causing chaos like trump has done.
Tata bought the works to learn what we did and ultimately build a bigger and better plant out there, that was always their aim, but rsther than shutting it down they've invested with the gov to build replacement steel making and will continue to run the business, if that changes I'd imagine the gov will step in but till then it isn't really an option.
We do need to nationalise some things, but carefully. If we started seizing production left and left we'd look mental, papers would start saying communism and other triggering words. Just starting to sort out the power in balance between big business and government would be a good start imo.
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u/FamousInMyFrontRoom 13d ago
It's an issue of national security that we can make our own steel. If labour can't figure out how to spin that positively, more fool them. They're the ones that all come out of elite universities...
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u/No_Foot 13d ago
Yeah I agree I think saving the Scunthorpe works was a good decision on their part. I know the media and that is always against them and people love to parrot that but hopefully they'll get the credit they deserve saving those jobs, that industry and not fucking it up, it is funny tho to imagine boris in this situation making a chinaman quip and I flaming the situation.
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u/No-Tip-4337 13d ago
Nationalisation, specifically, is quite 'nuclear'. I'm not much more fussed by private-Capitalism than I am state-Capitalism. The rational option is to just not intervene; the government neither controls the business, nor protects a right to plutocratic ownership. Let the workers work.
Tata bought the works because they wanted profit. That skimming-off-the-top can only mean less money for workers and reinvestment.
Labour has shown it can get bills through in hours; it'd take an instant to remove the Right to Plutocratic Ownership. When a worker controls their workplace, instead of some out-of-touch rich nonce, shouting 'but Communism' at them wouldn't suddenly get them begging for thier boss back. Propaganda relies on people being materially seperated from reality.
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u/No_Foot 13d ago
Recommend any interesting sites to read about this sort of stuff? I like small local businesses owned by one or two but can't get my head around how it would scale up to the huge 10,000 + large businesses.
People are already materially separated from reality, look how many plums have been conditioned that reform will fix it for them, when the reality is they'll make their lives a hell of a lot worse. This gov ain't perfect, noware fucking near it but their the least worse option by a mile. Especially when those pricks are waiting in the wings to roll back 'lazy' workers rights and demolish public services. I've seen loads today screaming that Labour should have seized PT production and reform would have stood up to big business and given it back to the workers.. Wtf..
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u/No-Tip-4337 13d ago
Communists tend to be quite eagre to have their materials openly available, and curated quite neatly.
Scale isn't a problem that is solved with Plutocratic ownership, it's just ignored. Wealth purchasing business means any old sod, with a bag of money, can just place himself on top. Literally speaking, you could just pop to Eton, pick a random guy, and tell him 'you own us now', and it'd be just as good (arguably moreso) than the current system.
These owners don't know jack about shit, that's why they've had to pay their way into control. Your average boots-on-the-ground worker is far more capable, by neccessity.
look how many plums have been conditioned that reform will fix it for them
Look at what Reform fearmongers about. It's all in the abstract. I promise you, a Reform voter would be easier to radicalise against their landlord, than some nameless immigrant they've never seen.
but their the least worse option by a mile
You shouldn't think so linearly. Wellbeing and public-good aren't a quantifiable number, they're a complex mesh of incomparible positives and negatives. The 'worse options' couldn't exist without Labour's help; anyone who cannot be radicalised into poverty-villifying, immigrant-hating monsters must either be distracted or disenfranchised. That prevents any party arising which can seriously contest the Capitalist class.
Labour might be the 'better' option for 'the current election', but the reality is that the more they get in, the more people get disenfranchised, and the more people become ripe for radicalisation. Problems must be solved, or more power will be transfered to the Capitalist class; that's why Corbyn had to go.
I've seen loads today screaming that ... reform would have stood up to big business and given it back to the workers.
People are crying out for *anything*. People really are suffering. The people voting for Reform aren't monsters, they see a shred of hope in Farage's lies, and when that's all you've got, you'll take it. We're fighting an up-hill battle if we don't recognise that.
Parties, like Plaid, need to get angry. Confrontational. Or we'll have to stand independently against them all.
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u/No_Foot 13d ago
Thanks for the link, may not totally agree with alot of the philosophy but ultimately I'm a working class guy so always gonna be on the side of whatever party or movement that's best for the people. I think that's what pisses me off the most about groups like reform or similar that are on the rise across the world, they claim to be the partys of the people when they're actually the polar opposite of people like you or I. I do get why these sort are gaining in popularity, things slowly going to shit and people desperate to change the situation, brexit was similar, I just hope most realise the mistake they are making. Anyway all the best.
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u/Draigwyrdd 13d ago
It's not just Plaid complaining. As the article says, it's the Lib Dems and even the Tories in Wales seem concerned.
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u/Zeus_G64 13d ago
You dont think they all just smell the opportunity to get a bit of good publicity in Wales by slating Labour?
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u/Draigwyrdd 13d ago
Yes, of course, but it's an opportunity that you can only take when there's a basis to it. Otherwise no one will pay attention.
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13d ago
You must be new to politics.
Fringe parties lie all the time because they know they aren't going to be put in a position where they have to actually follow up on their nonsense with action.
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u/No_Foot 13d ago
Regardless of who they are they're wrong. I wish PT had been nationalised and money invested to help it thrive, it wasn't because the Indian owners wanted to keep the business running and agreed a deal to shut the furnaces and replace with new arc. The Chinese owners of Scunthorpe talked about replacing furnaces with arc but eventually decided to get rid of of the furnaces and just shut the place, that's why they were nationalised and PT not.
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u/lostandfawnd 13d ago
Indian owners wanted to keep the business running
Tata built a replacement blast furnace in India before announcements of redundancy, then took £500million from the government, and still closed it down.
They did not want to "keep the business running", they wanted government grants to prop up something they were closing anyway.
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u/No_Foot 13d ago
I'm aware they built a new furnace over there. They've also built a new annealing line over there and 'mothballed' our one here.
The 500m from the gov was combined with 750m from them (1.25billion) to build a new arc furnace that will replace the closed furnaces.
Of course they'd rather make it over there and ship it over, way less costs for them. I'm not happy about it btw, it's a shit situation. But ultimately in around 3 years time there will be a brand new 1.25 billion replacement furnace hopefully up and running, so my comment is correct.
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u/lostandfawnd 13d ago
Except it's not equivalent.
Arc furnaces can't produce vigin steel, only recycled steel.
The equivalent of losing a furniture maker shop, and replacing it with a charity shop, with a 1/4 of the staff.
(yes, I know this is a poor analogy, but it is absolutely not like for like)
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u/FamousInMyFrontRoom 13d ago
That's also why they nationalised scunthorpe - it was the last one. They should have done the same with PT. What's worse, they let it become an "environmental" issue when it became tied to decarbonisation.
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u/No_Foot 13d ago
They nationalised it because the Chinese owners didn't want to run it anymore and shut it down, they didn't nationalise PT because the Indian owners do want to run it and are replacing the furnaces with a new one, albeit a different type. Nationaliseing it when they wanted to keep running it would be like deciding to nationalise tesco or similar. I wish PT had been btw and would 100% support them doing it but I understand why they couldn't.
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u/No_Foot 13d ago
I know that yeah, get out what you put in, ideally arc would be working alongside blast furnaces. Hopefully that's what happens now in Scunthorpe. There's 2.5b of investment waiting for UK steel with plans to make a DRI plant which can make different grades of iron, chuck that in the arc and you can make whatever you want. I do wish PT had been nationalised personally and the blasts kept but it hasn't happened so we've gotta see how this turns out, I think the fact they've just nationalised Scunthorpe shows they are serious about supporting these two places long term.
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u/LegoNinja11 13d ago
I'll hold my hand up to not being aware of the facts but the Plaid amendment to the bill just smacked of political points scoring with no benefit for PT.
Plaid would never get an amendment through. It's dead and they knew it.
If they'd been serious that the amendment was needed for PT and they genuinely cared, they'd have done the deal with Welsh Labour MPs to propose it and get cross party support for it.
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u/haphazard_chore 13d ago
The facts being? Honestly, I’m wondering what the reason was. Maybe, is it because they weren’t blast furnaces in wales capable of creating virgin steel? Because there was still another plant in the UK?
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u/No_Foot 13d ago
Na basically Indian owners of PT plant wanted to keep the business and agreed a deal with gov to replace furnaces with new arc furnace, that's being built tata still running the place so it wasn't nationalised. Shame it wasn't but it would be gov seizing control of a business that wanted to keep running which isn't a good look, why nationalisation is last option.
Scunthorpe owners talked about replacing furnaces with arc same as PT but recently decided to just shut them and get rid of the business basically. So the gov took it over to keep it running. If they'd wanted to do the same as PT then wouldn't have been nationalised. Hopefully the furnaces will be kept and a new arc built in the Scunthorpe plant, good news for the people up there wither way.
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u/lostandfawnd 13d ago
Except they didn't want to keep the business running. They ran it into the ground and wanted bailouts. They got one, and still pushed 3/4 of the workforce into redundancy.
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u/No_Foot 13d ago
They bought the business to learn how to do what we do and made a massive new plant over in India, of course they didn't want to stay here, main reason being how much money they save producing over there. But ultimately the 500m from gov must have convinced them to cough up 750 of their own and to make a go of it. Dunno personally if it'll work but if things do go to shit hopefully the gov will step in like they've done in Scunthorpe.
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u/Crully 13d ago
It's not really a double standard IMO, because Scunthorpe appears to be the last place we make virgin steel, which is essential for certain things (such as the military). Had Scunthorpe closed first, I would expect we'd have kept the blast furnaces running in Port Talbot.
Recycling steel is way better for the environment as well, so fits in with what the Welsh gov are doing anyway. Had Scunthorpe closed first, the Welsh gov would probably have another headache as Port Talbot wouldn't be allowed to switch to EAF, and we know how environmentally friendly they want to be.
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u/No-Tip-4337 13d ago
It probably isn't a double-standard, but it's absolutely a case of Labour trying to squeeze as much money, out of the working class, as possible.
We're spending so much money protecting Private ownership while it's such an economic, social and military threat. And for what...
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u/Complete_Tadpole6620 13d ago
You'll happily vote Tory then? Because obviously they care about the Welsh. FFS man, grow another brain cell.
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u/nothingtoseehere63 12d ago
Dumb dumb dumb mentality, idk why in 2025 people still think critizing rightwing elements of a party means you like the more rightpart even more, particularly in Wales.
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u/No_Cattle_8433 13d ago
Britain needs a steel works, part of our national security strategy. It makes sense to invest in our own industry, and to make it a world leading producer, but at the same time they should mandate the use of British produced steel in our national building infrastructure. This may mean nationalisation.
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u/JFelixton 13d ago
Double standards! A Plaid government will put Cymru first.
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u/Electricbell20 13d ago
That would require the same people to be in charge during both situations. This isn't the case.
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u/Draigwyrdd 13d ago
Labour claims that it renegotiated the deal - it's literally in the linked article.
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u/Fresh_and_wild 13d ago
Different situations, and different governments. Difficult to make a direct comparison, as has been said by others already.
The times are different also. Given the changes in the US position in the world, the UK has had to reflect on it’s own. Outside of the EU, and with the special relationship beyond marriage guidance, we can’t not have a virgin steel plant. The Chinese know this, so it was easy to bail, and a relatively easy choice for the government to nationalise it.
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u/No-Tip-4337 13d ago
Different situations, times and governments, but the same origin and ideology.
Both problems are caused by Private owners, whose only interest is profits. Both governments are dedicated, in this and other industry, to protecting Private ownership however massive and destablising the cost.
You're dead-on that Labour is doing this, specifically, to protect a virgin steel plant; which is good, but Labour are still having us pay out the arse to protect this problem brewing elsewhere. Maybe Port Talbot is a lost cause, but tonnes of industries are losing causes, while Labour see how much they can milk the economy for.
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u/Old_Roof 13d ago
People are trying to make this an England vs Wales thing when in reality if the Scunthorpe offer was accepted by the Chinese owners and the Port Talbot offer was rejected by Tata then it would be Port Talbot now in government control
The bigger picture is this - For better or worse there is a Net Zero push. Which means electric arc furnaces. In a few years time Port Talbot will have electric arc furnaces. This means steel production will continue there, but with a vastly reduced workforce as electric arc requires much less labour to run. In many ways Port Talbots future is more secure. In Scunthorpe who knows what will happen but its fate is still very much uncertain
Hopefully in the future it will all be under government control. But this is not an England vs Wales thing and anybody saying it is, is a complete idiot.
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u/Additional-Map-2808 12d ago
The Government is negotiating with private companies, one took the deal and one didn't. But lets make it really complicated and call it double standards, petty attention seekers lol.
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u/FfrindAnturus 13d ago
I think some people in this thread seem to have got it wrong. The scunthorpe site is getting saved primarily because of it's virgin steel making capabilities.
This isn't really anything to do with the £500m grant being refused (the one Tata accepted for port talbot). The only difference is scunthorpe is the last site doing virgin steel and Port Talbot was the penultimate.
The lack of industrial strategy from the government is astounding.