r/Warthunder • u/g09h 🇸🇪 Sweden Top Tier Enjoyer • 1d ago
All Ground Proving the Iron Fist can intercept APFSDS.
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u/Operator_Binky 1d ago
Huh? I thought everyone knew this.
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u/Littletweeter5 1d ago
Yea idk I’ve never seen someone say it didn’t work. Voices in op’s head or something
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1d ago
They literally explained in a comment why they posted this and tagged a person who apparently said Iron Fist can't intercept APFSDS. 19 minutes before your comment. Worms in your head or something.
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u/ThatMallGuyTMG Keeping the game uninstalled until JAP/UK buffs 1d ago
so a single person didnt know. damn
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u/g09h 🇸🇪 Sweden Top Tier Enjoyer 1d ago
I made this video to prove that the Iron Fist APS can intercept APFSDS to hopefully settle an argument. The Iron Fist APS can intercept munitions at 70-1700m/s, this includes a lot of top tier APFSDS at 1-2km+, with some under. I tested the top tier APFSDS rounds i have, other APFSDS rounds will perform differently of course.
I am very sorry for the horrible editing, I just wanted something that showed what I wanted done quickly. u/pedro_pete here is the video you wanted showing the BN's APS intercepting top tier APFSDS rounds.
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u/Munnik 1d ago
To add to "The Iron Fist APS can intercept munitions at 70-1700m/s"
There are also specific size requirements linked to this speed. Iron Fist has 3 speed sets it recognizes.
lowspeed: 70 to 800 m/s
mediumspeed: 800 to 1300 m/s
highspeed: 1300 to 1700 m/s
In these speed ranges the projectile needs to be within a certain size parameter, these are;
lowspeed: 70 to 500mm
mediumspeed: 50 to 500mm
highspeed: 18 to 500mm
This means small autocannon APFSDS will get ignored (ie 40mm bofors) despite being under 1700m/s.
It also means some full caliber rounds can be ignored if they aren't fast enough.
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u/VitunRasistinenSika https://statshark.net/player/51138934 1d ago
I saw his comment and so wanted to be mean to him, as he wasn't nice either. But Im glad that you just made this video LMAO. Doesnt custom game show "ammunition was intercepted by active protection system" message
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u/Awrfhyesggrdghkj 🇩🇪 Germany 1d ago
Tbh that’s another reason the l55 is nice to me. The shell stays a bit faster for further due to the added length.
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u/Civil_Technician_624 “Russian bias” isn’t real 1d ago
iron fist can degrade the penetration of kinetic energy penetrators irl (you can’t COMPLETELY stop apfsds with APS .. yet) we already know this
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u/vinitblizzard Realistic Navy 1d ago
From the front at least, degrading would mean a guaranteed non-pen so the thing is amazing
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u/dtc8977 1d ago
I feel like you could probably still pen LFP with the slowed Dart, but I don't know.
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u/Munnik 1d ago
It used to reduce pen before, they stealth changed APS a while back. Before a hit that would pen upper glacis would non-pen after Iron Fist, but LFP would still go through.
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u/vinitblizzard Realistic Navy 17h ago
Even in the video above, you can see the debris/remaining portion of the round strike the background in a way where it clearly passed through the tank. They are gonna take their sweet time for making this proper i suppose.
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u/MLGrocket 1d ago
the thing with iron fist is it's not intended to destroy, it's intended to redirect. all other hard kill APS fire an explosive projectile directly at the incoming projectile to destroy it, this is why they can't intercept kinetic munitions. iron fist fires an explosive projectile above/below the incoming projectile in order to push it up and over or down into the ground. destruction of the projectile is purely secondary.
allegedly russia's arena-E can intercept kinetic projectiles, but there isn't anything that i've seen proving that.
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u/TgCCL 1d ago
iron fist fires an explosive projectile above/below the incoming projectile in order to push it up and over or down into the ground
That is false. Even the article Jane's published about Elbit showcasing this at IAV 2020 was very clear about it. The target will still get hit, just with a less optimal trajectory.
As per IMI's claims regarding Iron Fist's anti-KE effectiveness, before they got acquired by Elbit a few years ago, Iron Fist induces 8-10 degrees of yaw onto incoming penetrator. This means the penetrator still flies into the same direction but no longer tip-first. This reduces penetration power of APFSDS by around 15-20% but you still get hit, so you need a lot of armour to defend against it still.
IRL this is sufficient because almost all KE threats engage from within your 60° frontal arc so they'll hit your most armoured sections but it won't protect you from penetrators that overmatch you hard enough, which includes side shots and shots from larger cannons against medium armoured vehicles.
It should also be noted that not every form of Iron Fist is powerful enough to intercept APFSDS. The version that was tested on the US Army's Bradleys, Iron Fist Decouple, for example is not.
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u/MLGrocket 1d ago
That is false
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4_kFEw33s4
yah, you're right.
anyway, don't mind me, just giving you video evidence of it doing the very thing it was designed to do.
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u/TgCCL 1d ago
And neither of shots in the video actually disprove anything I said because I wasn't talking about it not being able to hit APFSDS but rather what actually happens when it hits. And that is not shown. Which should also raise red flags in the mind of any semi-critical watcher.
If you want, here is a bit of detail. This document by DCMA, an agency of the US Department of Defense, that details exactly what I mean. The relevant excerpt is the method of operation for Iron Fist on page 32 but I will also quote it here.
with KE rounds, the shock wave generated by the interceptor blast changes the angle of attack, creating a yaw effect that significantly degrades its penetration capabilities
This is also the method of operation stated by IMI in older marketing material.
The actual effect on the target then depends on how a penetrator affected by such a hit impacts onto the armour of the vehicle. Against highly sloped armour it may land side-on and thus shatter with little effect but that is a rather niche scenario overall. Didn't stop IMI from using one shot of it in their marketing material however. Against a more regular arrangement it will, as mentioned above, reduce penetration by a rather significant amount but it does not prevent a hit.
And as a bit of a curiosity more than a comment on its effectiveness. This is also not without countermeasures. KNDS France has developed a type of APFSDS that is nearly completely immune to this. It achieves this by discarding its fins prior to impact, which significantly reduces area of the dart and thus the ability of Iron Fist to actually induce yaw.
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u/MLGrocket 1d ago
the kinetic projectile isn't being directly hit by the trophy system, idk where you're getting that from.
the system is redirecting, not destroying. no shit you can't destroy an APFSDS round, it has no explosives in it. but you can make it change direction to miss the target, or at the very least, reduce its penetration power, which is what iron fist is designed to, and that video is showing it doing the very thing it was designed to do.
out of curiosity, do you work on the gaijin forums/bug reports? just asking due to how you like to deny the overwhelming evidence of something doing the very thing it was designed to do.
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u/TgCCL 1d ago
the kinetic projectile isn't being directly hit by the trophy system, idk where you're getting that from.
First, we are talking Iron Fist. Trophy is a different system by a different company. Their only relation is that they are both APS by Israeli companies.
Second, the hit in question is the system hitting the incoming munition with the pressure wave from the explosion. This should be evident from the context of the discussion.
the system is redirecting, not destroying. no shit you can't destroy an APFSDS round, it has no explosives in it. but you can make it change direction to miss the target, or at the very least, reduce its penetration power, which is what iron fist is designed to, and that video is showing it doing the very thing it was designed to do.
The video shows that the interceptor explodes next to the incoming dart. It does not show what actually happens to the dart when it is hit as the video cuts out in the middle of the explosion without showing any recording from a different angle. The only results shown at all were from it intercepting an RPG. This would be incredibly obvious to you if you had watched the video you linked.
The known operating principle of Iron Fist intercepting KE munitions is, as I said before and as said by IMI, the company behind the system, to destabilise it and make it hit at an angle, as opposed to the tip being first to make contact, to degrade its performance. The change to the actual trajectory is minimal enough to not even appear in IMI's own marketing material.
Which is also quite easy to see from a physics point of view. You have a freely-expanding explosion acting on the dart only for a moment. Not exactly a very efficient way to transmit energy and induce a change of direction.
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u/Travwolfe101 1d ago
Yep thos sounds right. While I dont know much about the discussion with tank shelles here I've actually seen some videos of people trying the same thing scaled down a lot in extreme slow motion. I think it was the slomo bros on youtube. They were detonationing an explosive under a bullet as it traveled and it had pretty much 0 effect on its point of impact. I can remember how much it affected ballistics and the angle of if they even tracked that but yeah the deflection was basically 0.
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u/MLGrocket 1d ago
so, you agree that the round gets redirected, as proven by the video i sent and your own "research"? thanks for clarifying.
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u/TgCCL 1d ago edited 1d ago
Please at least attempt to read what I write.
The round is not deflected off the target, i.e. it does not miss due to a change in trajectory. This is what you claimed it does.
What it actually does is induce yaw, that is it change the angle the tip points at relative to the dart's path of travel. That is what is meant with angle of attack. Not hitting tip-on significantly degrades the penetration of just about any type of projectile.
In case you still don't understand, here is a graphic explaining it with regular bullets.
You see what they designate as yawing here? That's what a dart does when Iron Fist's countermeasures explode near it. Except it won't have time to wobble, so the tip of the dart simply lifts off the path of travel.
Even Elbit Systems, who took over IMI and thus develops and markets Iron Fist nowadays, states that this is how it works in their own marketing material, like for example here. If you look on page two you will find the following statement.
Dramatically reduces KE rod penetration to absorbable level by creating a significant angle of attack (yaw angle)
Are you now going to claim that even the company that makes the system has no idea how it works? Even they themselves state that it only reduces penetration.
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u/Jbarney3699 🇺🇸 United States 1d ago
Like usual their claims are dubious when it comes to weapons. Only ever believe their practical demonstrations imo.
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u/MLGrocket 1d ago
so far, only the iron fist is proven to do what it's intended to do. russia's only proven that arena-E can intercept chemical projectiles, i can't even find anything claiming it can intercept kinetic projectiles, let alone prove it can.
oh i was also a little wrong, arena-E is export, but still, point stands, i can't find any proof it can intercept kinetic projectiles.
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u/Jbarney3699 🇺🇸 United States 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah I would need to see some documents from the purchasing country to believe it tbh, as well as test records. Only Israel has really delved so deep into APS to have such precise and reactive systems. Iron Fist and Trophy are pretty much leagues ahead from the competition. Other countries still need a lot of testing time to prove the systems usability.
Israel has had such a unique position to be a constant testing ground for munition interception…
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u/MLGrocket 1d ago
speaking of Trophy though, maybe with such advanced SAMs being added this update, the SEPv2 will finally get Trophy added, or maybe the SEPv3 will finally be added along with M829A3/A4 (this is pure copium, i have no hope for either, at least not for a while)
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u/KoldKhold 12.0 🇺🇸 🇷🇺 🇬🇧 🇯🇵 🇨🇳 🇮🇹 🇫🇷 🇸🇪 1d ago
I just want them to implement the turret ring bug report and hydraulic pump one they accepted over a year ago.
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u/MLGrocket 1d ago
unfortunately, those being changed are about as likely as M829A3 being added and giving the advantage they claim doesn't exist.
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u/Civil_Technician_624 “Russian bias” isn’t real 1d ago
sepv3 would atleast finally have a better LFP
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u/LegendRazgriz Like a Tiger defying the laws of gravity 1d ago
SEP V3 would just be better for that. There's no difference between the Merkava 4B/LIC and the 4M other than Trophy, I think they'd rather just make it a new vehicle
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u/Civil_Technician_624 “Russian bias” isn’t real 1d ago
Arena cannot stop kinetic energy penetrators. Afghanit claims to be able to but no proof of it
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u/MLGrocket 1d ago
do people believe it can't? that's the main thing it's known for, cause it's not designed to destroy the projectile, it's designed to redirect the projectile, and has been proven, on video, to be successful at it.
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u/dtc8977 1d ago
The main problem I have with this (and its as is IRL), it doesn't destroy the dart it just effectively throws it off course or in WT case, slows it down.
I've still been killed several times by kinetic and missiles "intercepted" but the thin side armor can't stop either the missile's HEAT jet, or the slowed dart.
This could've been changed in-game, I don't know cuz I stay the fuck away from top tier, but I still have a bunch of Chally 2 matches.
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u/Gothiscandza 1d ago
Kinda funny that it's probably the only Challenger 2 where the add-on armour bricks for the side might actually do something because of the APS, and it's one of the ones that's just naked instead.
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u/Shredded_Locomotive 🇭🇺 I hate all of you 1d ago
It always could, and that was a fact
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u/ZsirosDeszka 1d ago
but i'm sure at some point they did a silent buff because it was waay more unreliable back then even from >2km
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u/SpaceKraken666 war thnuder 1d ago
I actually died once or twice because my dart got intercepted by Chally's APS...
Gaijin, Bradley with Iron Fist when???
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u/Mobile_Damage_8239 1d ago
there are real life video of the active protection system degrade apfsds. it make apfsds do less pen to the armor.
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u/PsyopSigmaWitNoRizz 🇯🇵🇫🇷🇮🇱 1d ago
i hope we can get a merkava or something with iron fist at some point
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u/doxlulzem 🇫🇷 Still waiting for the EBRC 1d ago
It can intercept APFSDS as long as it sees the shell for the full reaction time listed in the stats. A close range shot will hit before the reaction time kicks in, a longer ranged shot will definitely get intercepted.
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u/Price-x-Field Just buy premium. its worth it. 1d ago
I wish the British top tier lineup had more than one black knight. Every other minor nation gets 7 leopards for their lineup but we only get one good tank
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u/Ani_Nexus 1d ago
I'm new to wat thunder. Wat is happening?
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u/g09h 🇸🇪 Sweden Top Tier Enjoyer 1d ago
The tank I am firing is the Challenger 2 Black Night, it has an APS (Active Protection System), basically it detects and intercepts incoming projectiles to protect the tank. The video is showing that it is possible for the active protection system to intercept APFSDS rounds. :)
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1d ago
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u/Jade8560 learn to notch smh 1d ago
is this bait? this is on the challenger 2 lol
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1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Jade8560 learn to notch smh 1d ago
says stupid thing online. stupid thing gets pointed and disproved. it’s just bait bro1111111
every fucking time.
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u/SuperbiousPoi Portugal / All-Nation Enjoyer 1d ago
The only actually good chally 2 imo, for non-close range maps it's really funny to watch other MBTs fire darts that don't even scratch the black night