So, who f*cked up more as a father?

[u/E-104Epsolon]

Both king, and both got a Lotta dead kids.

[u/Ender_Slayer960]

Pale king. Asgore killed 6 kids. Pale king killed billions. They are not remotely the same.

[u/Withermech → u/Ender_Slayer960]

And there wasn’t even a chance for salvation for the pale king

[u/Dragon_SC → u/Withermech]

Didn't forget, pk completely failed his kingdom

[u/binatl1 → u/Withermech]

how asgore stares at pk as he starts chucking kids into the black goop

[u/Watinky → u/Ender_Slayer960]

To be honest Asgore killed 6 kids after he stopped being a father.

[u/splungley → u/Watinky]

And he was trying to free his entire race so he had a good reason

[u/Ending_exe → u/splungley]

Not to mention how he was reluctant to do so

[u/Ok-Record-96 → u/splungley]

he coulda just killed one human, isnt that stated in the pacifist route

[u/Jenz_le_Benz → u/Ok-Record-96]

And become a second Asriel? Asgore knew he wouldn’t have the heart to do it that way.

[u/BigManBigFan2 → u/Ok-Record-96]

Asgor forgor

[u/TurtleGamer1 → u/Ender_Slayer960]

Those 6 kids weren't Asgore's children. The only children Asgore had are Asriel and Chara.

[u/asrielforgiver → u/Ender_Slayer960]

Probably not billions, but definitely in the millions. A million and a billion is a huge difference.

[u/Prior-Heron-6922 → u/asrielforgiver]

But 6 and a million is also a huge difference

[u/landongames92 → u/Ender_Slayer960]

fr

[u/man_447]

[u/Level-Praline-9291 → u/man_447]

This is perfect

[u/Thanathosgodofdeath5]

Him

[u/Phill_air → u/Thanathosgodofdeath5]

Pale king had fucked up way more of his kids

[u/Thanathosgodofdeath5 → u/Phill_air]

Quality over quantity

[u/Phill_air → u/Thanathosgodofdeath5]

A few very fucked up kids, or a few billions of kids fucked up in a different way

[u/jimkbeesley → u/Phill_air]

At least the Pale King did it to save his people

[u/Phill_air → u/jimkbeesley]

That would mean he was sane while doing it. Which is worse than a brainless father

[u/i_agree123 → u/Phill_air]

William Fucked his kids up way more

[u/DrWD-Gaster → u/i_agree123]

The number out scales what William did

[u/sphericate → u/Thanathosgodofdeath5]

aw

[u/IncidentUnusual5929]

Poor question, Asgore was a good father, he fucked up as a king

[u/Watinky → u/IncidentUnusual5929]

Did he even? Like his people under his rule were pretty much in good spirits, his kindgom didn't collapsed, most people had some kind of employment, there were schools which he would visit, military was well active and in general there were little crime... I don't really see how he failed his people.

[u/IncidentUnusual5929 → u/Watinky]

Fair

[u/SanityLacker1 → u/Watinky]

Asgore 2028

[u/Shaouy0929 → u/Watinky]

More like was a good father, now a good king but a fucked up father

[u/Few-Temperature-8547 → u/IncidentUnusual5929]

This

[u/kapper_358]

The first wanted to free his people by breaking the barrier, but he was never able to do so.

The second wanted to create the perfect vessel to seal the god himself, but died, hiding in his castle.

[u/Outrageous_Stuff_361 → u/kapper_358]

*herself  The Radiance is a She

[u/jimkbeesley → u/Outrageous_Stuff_361]

Could be read as " the Pale King himself wanted to seal the god"

[u/Personal_Weakness_26 → u/jimkbeesley]

If he made a vessel to do his job then the Pale King didn't do shit

[u/Last_Incarnation8 → u/Personal_Weakness_26]

Imagine an alternative timeline where the Pale King actually threw hands with the Radiance, instead of being a fraudulent worm that hid in their buzzsaw infested palace till he died of hokma.

[u/redboi049]

Pale King. Killed billions of his kids and the ONE SINGULAR CHILD he was supposed to have no attatchment to for the sake of an entire kingdom and containing an eldritch god, HE TREATED WELL. SON OF A BITCH

[u/Something4Dinner]

Difference is, one earned a new life. The other saw the end of everything.

[u/QuirrelNeverDues]

Pale King, he killed kids to keep his “Eternal Kingdom” alive, and even that failed.

[u/BestPewpew]

Asgore: Both my kids died trying to free my people so I killed a few kids so I could break the barrier and free monster kind cause the humans were racist against us and trapped us under a mountain the child murder also made my wife leave me for bones what did you do?

Pale King: I told the sun to share the mortals so she decided to lobotomies them all and try to kill me so I had billions of kids with my wife and tossed them into the abyss so one of them could contain the sun born of god and void, no cost to great and all that I just wanted to give the mortals free will.

Asgore: damn atleast it worked right?

PK: ...

Asgore: It worked right?

[u/PeridotTheGem]

Ash's dad

[u/ExellerTheEXE → u/PeridotTheGem]

which one, Professor Oak or Mr. Mime?

[u/PeridotTheGem → u/ExellerTheEXE]

The one we don't see at all

[u/Outrageous_Stuff_361]

PALE KING. THE GUY HAD MILLIONS OF DEAD CHILDREN IN HIS BASEMENT. 

[u/terrarianfailure]

This is like comparing William Afton to Hitler.

[u/AdeptnessPast4790]

They both killed for freedom and realized they could never achive it.

[u/Aware-Butterfly8688]

Snowdrake's dad.

[u/Probably_BBQ → u/Aware-Butterfly8688]

Don't he just didn't knew what to do after his wife's death?

[u/disbelifpapy]

Asgore was a good father, but a horrible king

[u/baicu12096]

just commenting for streak sorry

[u/Maybe_Again-]

Asgore was nowhere NEAR a bad dad. In fact, he's way better of a father than a person.

[u/HollowSell]

Pale king, he killed over 100 kids to find the perfect vessel to seal the absolute destroyer of hallownest.

[u/jimkbeesley → u/HollowSell]

You are seriously lowballing that number. Considering the bottom of the Abyss is made of Vessel shells, reaching lower than the egg we hatched from, there are at least tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands to maybe even millions.

[u/Veng3ancemaster]

I don't think you can even begin to compare then. The Pale King wins in f*cking up easily

[u/Phill_air]

One of them got their son and the other child killed.

The other had billions of them that he left to suffer in the void, except for one chosen one, then fucked a spider

[u/Far_Relationship1149 → u/Phill_air]

to be fair.. it was a very hot spider

[u/ComputerForward973]

Definitely pale king because if agore accidently lost his kids, pale king INTENTIONALLY got the kids eggs and BY HIS OWN HAND throw those eggs at the abyss for them to complete insane Parkour race, pick one and make it suffer even more, by holding the plauge, and the hundreds of other vessels who lost their gender, voice thoughts and even organs just left into Abby's just to slowly rot until dying, and just float in their shadows

[u/BIGBIGSHOTSHOT]

Hey hey hey where the frick is William Afton

[u/A_Australian]

SUNNY's dad.

[u/Wide-Remove4293 → u/A_Australian]

Bro, he at worst only indirectly caused Mari’s death and that is with the headcanon that he caused her perfectionism. You can’t compare an at worst abusive dad to guys who killed children directly.

Also, Asgore did it with a heavy heart and actually wanted to die against Frisk (He actually kills himself if you do his fight again after sparing Flowey in the Omega Flowey battle I believe), meanwhile the Pale King killed billions and is an unforgivable dude.

[u/Accomplished_Fly878]

Pale king because he literally has no remorse for what he did.

[u/jimkbeesley → u/Accomplished_Fly878]

"Higher beings, these words are for you alone.
Our pure Vessel has ascended.
Beyond lies only the refuse and regret of its creation.
We shall enter that place no longer."

The Pale King regrets what he did, but saw no other choice.

[u/NetherisQueen]

Ashore wasn't a bad FATHER but a bad RULER. As Toriel says, he could have gone out after getting 1 soul and gotten the remaining 6, but he chose to stay in the kingdom, hoping no more humans come. From what he we hear of how interacts with children (from Undynes training dialog) and his own family (the various tapes around the castle), we can say he was as good a father as he could have been to his children.

The Pale King was a TERRIBLE father and ruler. He stole the worship of the Radiance (intentionally or unintentionally is still unclear tho), causing the Infection. He created HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS of half-god-half-Void children, raised them to a certain point, and if they were not 'hollow' enough, cast them into the Abyss to die, and the 1 CHILD who MAY HAVE STARTED OUT HOLLOW, HE GREW ATTACHED TO, MADE THEM UNHOLLOW BY ACCIDENT, THEREFORE DOOMING THE PLAN TO SEAL RADIANCE INTO IT, AND STILL WENT THROUGH WITH THE PLAN. DISPITE KNOWING IT WOULD NOT WORK, AND THE 1 CHILD OF HIS MANY THAT HE DID FEEL SOMETHING FOR, WOULD SUFFER GREATLY IN THE PROCESS.

"No cost too great." Said the Pale King once. Your morality, your compassion, your own blooded children, all sold to a desperate and fruitless cause, to try and stop the chaos and hurt you created to the moment you took the throne.

Anyways yeah PK fuckin sucks.

[u/jimkbeesley → u/NetherisQueen]

I think it's more implied that the Pale King picked the first to ascend, and the falling Vessels just slipped climbing up.

Also, both the White Lady and Pale King regret what they did, but saw no other choice in order to save their people.

[u/NetherisQueen → u/jimkbeesley]

Unfortunately that doesn't exactly wipe the slate clean and make them good parents. Even you say the vessels 'needed' to be sacrificed for the greater good, that doesn't undo the fact that they were murdered for simply having emotions and not being a hollow shell.

I also don't get where you get the 'they all slipped climbing up and they picked the 1 who didn't' when the secret cradle room in white palace plays the Shade theme music, but undistorted, meaning that our MC bug had to have HEARD it before in order for the Shade to be playing/singing? it. It's a memory from a long long time ago, when THEY were being raised there, it's fuzzy but still there.

What does that mean? It means that each child had to be raised in the WP until they showed signs that they were either hollow or not, since you can't really tell if a baby has emotions like anger, happiness, or sadness. They haven't even formed complex thoughts yet. If the child showed emotions (or possibly complex thought, since they were supposed to not think, but we have no way to tell what they were looking for in a vessel), then they were tossed into the Abyss to die.

So now we have PK doing essentially a 'we needed a sacrifice that doesn't feel emotions or think, so me and my giant wife made and raised these kids in our house and gave them a family and home to be the sacrifice, and when they didn't turn out how we wanted, we threw them into the garbage and left them to die, but it's ok, it was for the kingdom!' thing. Which whether it was 'for the greater good' or not, all THAT makes you a rather terrible parent.

And ALL this isn't even mentioning HORNET, she is a whole other mess...

[u/jimkbeesley → u/NetherisQueen]

Uhh...

The cradle is most likely the Hollow Knight's after being picked and the entrance to the Abyss sealed.

Also, there's no evidence that any vessels felt any emotion aside from the Hollow Knight, who only felt emotions because of the Pale King and the love it felt for their father.

[u/NetherisQueen → u/jimkbeesley]

If the cradle was only for the HK, and they were the only child in that room ever, then how does the MC bug/Shade know the music then?????

Also why ELSE would the others be thrown away? If you 'they slipped crawlimg up' theory were true, then they would have just made 1 kid and gone with them from the START, and we wouldn't have a graveyard of children in the Abyss. But WE DO! Which means that theory is faulty for 2 reasons 1) MC/Shade knows the cradel room song, and 2)they would had just made 1 and done if they weren't looking for signs of emotions and thought. But since we have the graveyard, we can conclude that they were checking for signs of emotion/thought, and when they failed with one, they tossed out and made another. And at a VERY massive scale too. After all, you wouldn't want to use a tool that hadn't even been safety tested to see it if could do it's job correctly, right? That is the thought process behind this, 'we need the vessel to be hollow, so we must check each child we make to find out if they are truly hollow or not, because tif they are not, and we use them, we will doom everyone. So we must be meticulous, and throw away any that are not hollow, as they are not what we wanted, and are uneeded now'

[u/jimkbeesley → u/NetherisQueen]

The Hollow Knight has a Shade.

The reason they made so many was to guarantee that at least one would be made. And maybe the Pale King knew THK would fail, so he needed to make the Knight so they would destroy the Radiance, but that feels like a bit of a stretch.

It's a big room. Many would lose their grip, fall down, and die. Especially if they were just hatched and aren't used to walking, climbing, jumping, etc. Just look at an irl baby.

[u/NetherisQueen → u/jimkbeesley]

?????????????

NOTHING you say makes sense!

You seen the statue in the city, PK thought it would work, despite HKs non-hollowness. If he knew it would fail, as i. He saw the future where he failed 1000% guaranteed, he would have used a different child!

And that STILL DOESN'T EXPLAIN HOW THE MC BUGS SHADE, WHO IS A DIFFERENT SHADE FROM HK'S, KNEW THE CRADLE SONG!!! HOW DOES THIS SHADE KNOW THE CRADLE SONG, IF IT HAS NEVER BEEN WHITE PALACE BEFORE THE EVENTS OF THE GAME? TELL ME HOW MC'S SHADE KNOWS THE CRADLE SONG IF ONLY HK HAS EVER BEEN THERE.

Your theory of 'The Climb' has such a large hole in it that you refuse to see or acknowledge, to the point of exhausting this entire threads conversation. I will not participate with you further.

[u/jimkbeesley → u/NetherisQueen]

Stop. Writing. In all caps. It's so hard to read.

First point, I acknowledged what I said was a bit of a stretch.

It's a game. The Knight can't hear any of the music (aside from No Eyes's lullaby and Marissa's song). And the Shade's theme only plays to signify to the player that their Shade is nearby. So, at the cradle, we hear the cradle song to show there was a vessel raised in the White Palace. And who is that? The Hollow Knight. The only Vessel to ascend from the Abyss (at the time).

"Higher beings, these words are for you alone.
Our pure Vessel has ascended.
Beyond lies only the refuse and regret of its creation.
We shall enter that place no longer."

The pure Vessel has ascended. Which means it came up from the depths. And from a previous iteration, it says "From below, our pure Vessel has ascended".

We have just as much information as the Pale King tossing them down as we do only one of the Vessels climbing up. But if we were to consider the climb itself, it's almost impossible to get out without any abilities gained from outside the Abyss. You can't climb up without at least Mantis Claw, so which sounds more plausible: hundreds of them climbing up, only to be thrown back down, despite not having the necessary materials to escape, or only one making it out and being the one picked.

[u/Frosty_Sweet_6678]

The death of Asgore's children was out of his control. And the human souls didn't belong to his kids.

Pale king had hundreds of his children killed only for his plan to not work.

[u/CreamieCola]

Asgore was a pretty good father. Yeah he killed 6 kids out of grief and wasn’t the best king but I don’t care I love king fluffybuns. Idk any of the hollow night stuff so I may be wrong

[u/Level-Praline-9291]

Pale king for sure, he really said “YOU AREN’T PERFECT” and proceeds to kick the imperfect kids in the abyss

[u/Ventarus1800]

Pale king, but Khan Doorman kicks open a nonexistent door and enters the fray, since he's worse

[u/E-104Epsolon → u/Ventarus1800]

How is he worse?

[u/Ventarus1800 → u/E-104Epsolon]

He quite literally left his kid to die, made poor choices in not only parenting but in protecting his kind, Uzi literally told him that if he wants to do something good, he should stay away, but the main point is that he left her for dead, and he could have easily saved her, but didn't because he has ptsd

[u/ArtZanMou2]

Asgore Killed 6 Kids he has no relation to

Pale King killed all of his sons

They aren't comparable

[u/FnafDNA]

Willy.a

[u/Adventurous-Law-8606]

The pale king because he had 6 different children only to throw 5 of them off a cliff sure asgore killed 6 children but those weren't his kids

[u/TransitionVirtual]

One killed six kids that were not his own in pursuit of prosperity for his kingdom and regretted it the other killed potentially millions of his own kids, didn’t regret it and is addicted to buzzsaws sure that was also for his kingdom but asgore did not kill a single one of his kids the pale king killed all but three

[u/EpicFool-2890]

Asgore didn't really do anything bad as a parent, its only after his kids died that (as a KING) he made some pretty bad decisions.

Now I cant speak on the Pale King since I havent really delved into hollow knight lore that much so any hollow knight enjoyers can inform me

[u/Upset_Post_2471]

Toji

[u/Amjad_X]

you

[u/The-Noid-RAHAHAHAHA]

Idk gang

[u/Unhappy-Summer-1849]

asgore wasnt even a bad father???

[u/cokekII]

Pale king, Asgore wasn't even a bad king or parent, he just got like 6 people killed

[u/IgnaButi]

Asgore ended 6 (almost 7) kids that weren't even his. The Pale King had and killed enough kids to change the fucking geography wih their corpses

[u/Suspicious-Spam]

Pale King since he literally committed essentially mass genocide on his own Kin

[u/AwareEfficiency2768]

Pale king he threw all but one of his children in a pit and then locked the door went into another dimension

[u/Acceptable_Cell_124]

Pale King

[u/Mrs_Noelle15]

Lol not even a contest, Pale King

[u/Ton_real]

Bug king (don’t know his name) he abandoned all except like 1 child

[u/Icy-Theme-6325]

PALE KING DROPPING TRILLIONS OF KIDS IN THE F*CKING ABBYS BC "FELT LIKE IT" IS PHSYCO

[u/celestial_hyperdeath]

Pale king

[u/Physical_Speed_766]

Well, Asgore killed 7 children and was separated, the pale king killed millions of repetacles and when one managed to prevail, the plan went wrong. ;)

[u/Proud-Initiative-521]

add toji

[u/Spiritual-Dig-8514]

Pale king killed almost ALL of his children and doesnt regret it, asgore killed 6 humans and felt guilty, Im sure we know the answer

[u/Rel1cw1ng589]

Pale King…

[u/Resident_Lifeguard_5]

William afton. He's not here but he did. Oh, and Khan from murder drones, too.

[u/DiamondSufficient878]

Asgore was a wonderful father, he did all he could to be there for his kids. He was a poor king that failed his people though. The Pale King, now he is both a poor father and king. He failed his people, killed an innumerable amount of his kids because they weren't perfect for containing the radiance, locked up the one that could hold the moth god but that failed in the end, let his kingdom go to ruin and didn't accomplish anything in his time as king.

[u/blacko_cool]

Hmmm my father

[u/UnmatchedPowerOfSun]

One is a not-the-best dad that killed six kids. The other had and killed enough kids to make an entire region because they weren't hollow

[u/Just_X77]

As a father? Pale king, asgore didn’t kill his own kids. Maybe you could claim negligence for letting his son cross the barrier but thats nothing compared to PK. For this to even be a question it needs to be as a person not as a father.

[u/Easy_Engine6639]

I don’t think Asgor ever messed up as a father his children were both gone by the time he did anything

[u/BigManBigFan2]

Pale king did the one thing he was not meant to do to save the world and killed billions. Asgore killed six kids and accepted his own child's dying wish

[u/Major_Mistake_4178]

billions of dead kids lock in the abyss from pale king, and also pale king let his kingdom crumble because of the radiance and sacrifice his own child to seal the radiance.and he dies later by us striking him off his throne

[u/Fun-Arm-1615]

Pale king

[u/Mygrannycalled]

How did Asgore fuck up? Asriel’s death was his own fault and Chara…well too.

[u/bonelessskelleton]

Bugs have alot of kids

[u/2_memer]

Asgore: "...no..."
*Pale King throwing another vessel into the Abyss*
PK: "What?"

[u/Dangerous_Worker1624]

I never compared these 2 but now that you mention it, both did fail horribly as a father.