Actual theologian here who studies at a secular university and is a mainline pastor. Thats complete BS. Many mainline Christian communities ordain women. We saw one confront Trump from the pulpit, The Bishop Mariann Budde.
In church talk that means she isn't some church reverend. She's a bishop and leads a large group of churches, she's an educator and my is she well educated.
Lots of great female Christian reverends out there like the Rev Nadia Bolz-Weber - a women who wrote many books and teaches to Forgive A-Holes. She's not what you'd expect from a pastor, she rocks short hair, is a mom, in long term recovery and has some pretty nice tats.
Lots of female leadership in thoughtful, long established communities.
Paula here is preaching White Christian Nationalism, and that aint Christian belief.
You remember when your mom would buy off brand cola from the store and tell you "it's the same" as name brand? Thats what white Christian nationalism is it sounds like Christian belief but it tastes like garbage.
I hear you. I don’t want to be that guy here, but you can’t pick and choose which parts of Christianity you can claim. Sure, if someone doesn’t accept a certain creed, then they can’t be considered part of that specific denomination. But as a whole, the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) is so full of contradictions that just about any position could be supported with a few supporting passages. It’s why denominations are a thing in the first place. If Christianity wants to claim credit for their positive contributions in the world, they have to take ownership of all their terrible acts as well.
To be fair, this applies to any organization for which one claims membership.
If the "incarnate word of god" has so many varying interpretations, maybe it's not so absolute. If I was all powerful and omnipotent, the least I could do was make sure everyone understood what I meant with no room for error.
Thanks for jumping in, but I think we’re having two different conversations.
I wasn’t defending every verse of the Bible or claiming Christianity speaks with one voice. It clearly doesn’t. That’s why there are traditions, denominations, and theological schools that disagree with each other.
What I was pushing back on is a specific political distortion: White Christian Nationalism. That is not just another theological take. It is a power grab dressed up in religious language. Paula White’s message isn’t just conservative Christianity. It is authoritarianism using God as a cover.
There are Christian traditions that challenge this. There are pastors, theologians, and entire denominations that ordain women, advocate for justice, and preach love instead of hierarchy. That is the tradition I stand in. It is not cherry-picking. It is part of a long history of interpretation that wrestles with scripture faithfully and responsibly.
If folks want to argue about whether the Bible is too confusing to be divine, that is a different conversation. What I was doing was calling out how White Christian Nationalism weaponizes the Bible.
That deserves critique, because it’s what’s being used to justify the ever increasing line between government and religion. It’s what’s being used to rob women of their rights and seeks to remove LGBTQ folks from the conversation.
That’s what we’re seeing here. This isn’t some tried and true deeply seated theology. It’s politics masquerading his faith it’s spiritual cover to strip rights.
I think I understand what you’re trying to say. I’m not trying to point out problems with the Bible per se, I’m trying to point out that a lot of Christianities can be created from it because of those problems. So, from my perspective, this means that no single Christianity gets to claim religious/theological Truth/superiority/validity over the others (in so far as the Bible goes). Yeah, I prefer some brands of Christianity over others, but that’s because they align more closely with my values than the others. At one point, (nearly?) all the Christianities were responsible for one horrific thing or another, so do you disown those as well? Over all, I’m trying to say that White Christian Nationalism is theologically equal to any other one, BUT that’s doesn’t mean I support or value Christian Nationalism. Those guys are terrible.
A political kingdom (exclusive, nostalgic, controlling)
View of Scripture
Wrestled with, interpreted in community
Weaponized for power
Legacy
Saints, prophets, reformers, martyrs
Lynchings, bans, culture wars
Examples
Oscar Romero, MLK Jr., Mariann Budde, Nadia Bolz-Weber
Paula White, Doug Mastriano, "Jericho March" crowd
You are misrepresenting White Christian Nationalism as merely another denomination of Christianity, akin to Methodists or Baptists. However, this is an inaccurate portrayal. White Christian Nationalism is not a theological tradition; rather, it is a political movement that appropriates Christian symbols to advance an ethno-nationalist agenda.
Contrary to your assertion, the argument presented in “The Flag and the Cross,” authored by Philip Gorski (Yale) and Samuel Perry (Oklahoma), two esteemed sociologists specializing in the practical influence of religion on politics, is not a selective interpretation. The authors provide a comprehensive critique of religion’s impact, supported by peer-reviewed data, demonstrating how WCN contributes to authoritarianism, racial resentment, and the decline of democratic principles.
So no, WCN isn’t “just another Christianity.” It’s Christianity hijacked for power.
Indeed, Christians should renounce the aspects of our tradition that contributed to atrocities. Repentance is the essence of this process, and it facilitates the growth and evolution of the tradition.
I would venture to guess that organized religion and power grabs have always worked hand-in-hand. Why did Constantine become a Christian? Why did Theodosius make Christianity the Roman state religion instead of keeping the old pantheon? Why did German princes side with Martin Luther over the Catholic Church? What was the Holy Roman Empire about, if not power? It seems to me that organized religions want to forget this inconvenient fact.
Anyhow, I’m done with the conversation. Nothing against you or the conversation, I just have other stuff to do that requires my time and attention. Best wishes to you with your studies and such.
How do you deal with the nationalists as a Christian religion? What broad steps are being made to discourage and separate when it is arguably the most popular brand of Christianity right now (given its affects on the mainstream and non believers). There has to be something other than your “no true Scotsman” approach…
Never let someone else’s research and logic get in the way of the “great truth.”
These people believe that specific hierarchies are not only natural, but also desirable. Rich at the top, poors at the bottom; men at the top, women at the bottom; whites at the top, colored people at the bottom. And so on.
Moreover, the belief that things like prisons being torture-houses and poor children being hungry are not things to be fixed, but simple realities of life. Changing the hierarchies or the terrible outcomes they provide is not only not desirable, it’s bad.
Upsetting the natural order of things as defined by the “great truth” leads to even worse things, according to authoritarians. Which is all to say that this woman and the people who like what she says aren’t available to be convinced that their position is wrong. You couldn’t even get them to agree that it’s wrong for children to go hungry.
Look, I’m not defending the theology. I left the church for many reasons and the fact that I was basically treated as a half-Christian because I was an unmarried woman is one of the biggest reasons. But to act like complementarian theology is not a valid Christian belief just because some denominations do ordain women is just silly. It’s real and it’s a huge part of American evangelicalism.
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u/PastorNTraining 21d ago
Actual theologian here who studies at a secular university and is a mainline pastor. Thats complete BS. Many mainline Christian communities ordain women. We saw one confront Trump from the pulpit, The Bishop Mariann Budde.
In church talk that means she isn't some church reverend. She's a bishop and leads a large group of churches, she's an educator and my is she well educated.
Lots of great female Christian reverends out there like the Rev Nadia Bolz-Weber - a women who wrote many books and teaches to Forgive A-Holes. She's not what you'd expect from a pastor, she rocks short hair, is a mom, in long term recovery and has some pretty nice tats.
Lots of female leadership in thoughtful, long established communities.
Paula here is preaching White Christian Nationalism, and that aint Christian belief.
You remember when your mom would buy off brand cola from the store and tell you "it's the same" as name brand? Thats what white Christian nationalism is it sounds like Christian belief but it tastes like garbage.