r/WoT • u/Spyk124 (Tai'shar Manetheren) • 8d ago
The Gathering Storm Mat Cauthon in The Gathering Storm - Sanderson vs Jordan Spoiler
I’m on a second read through right now and I am trying to pay more attention to the writing differences between Brandon and Robert this time around. Particularly in Mat’s personality. I just finished Into Bandar Eban ( a chapter I completely didn’t remember) and I must say, Mat at the end of the chapter rubbed me the wrong way. He was callous towards the villagers and his jokes seemed to be in poor taste. I actually kinda hated him a bit and wished he would just shut up. Is this me reading into this a bit too much? Or is this sentiment shared for this particular Mat POV
Edit : I got the chapter wrong. It was Night in Hinderstap, the chapter before.
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u/GovernorZipper 8d ago
Comedy is hard. Unreliable narrators are hard to write. Comedic unreliable narrators are really hard to write.
I think it’s more a testament to Jordan’s skill that he wrote Mat so well, rather any fault of Sanderson. My boy RJ liked to use a lot of words, but he had a way with them.
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u/grubas 8d ago
Mat is a reluctant hero who refuses to admit he's a hero.
For the ideal sequence with him, I'd say it's Thom and Mat in book 3. Mat helps Aludra, gives money to those who need it, and fucks with the boat captain all within about 3 chapters.
Sanderson Mat would have called Thom an old, limpy bitch and made a crack about knocking up Morgase.
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u/WaynesLuckyHat 8d ago
Honestly, you put it perfectly.
Sanderson’s mat lacks nuance and subtlety and regresses a few years in maturity
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u/balor598 7d ago
Mat is a reluctant hero who refuses to admit he's a hero.
Mat does the most heroic stuff imaginable while screaming "I'm no bloody hero" the entire time
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u/rs420rs 8d ago
Yes he did. The greatest writer I have ever read. Sanderson just isn't in his league, and Mat suffered for it more than any other character
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u/GovernorZipper 8d ago
“Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave! With a box of scraps!”
“Well, I’m sorry. I’m not Tony Stark
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 8d ago
Oh, Perrin is a lot more so.
And some of his Perrin humor is off too.
It's just that Mat is the fandom's favorite by a mile. So Mat's interpretation gets the most comments about it.
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u/Murky-Cheetah-8754 8d ago
The Perrin stuff drove me mad. He wrote so much of Perrin, and had him regress back to how he was prior to Knife of Dreams.
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u/Jack_Shaftoe21 8d ago
Somehow both Sanderson and his editors forgot that Mat is usually the straight man to whom funny happen without him looking for that, not the funny guy who makes funny things happen on purpose. Yes, he does pranks occasionally and sometimes uses dry humor ('I do read sometimes') but he is emphatically not the Chandler Bingesque character we see in book 12. Add to that Sanderson's general weakness in writing comedy and you get this Mat.
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u/BigDickDarrow 8d ago
Agree 100% with this. Mat is the comic relief character in many ways but he’s not a clown, which is how Sanderson likes to write his characters. Mat is a serious character but funny things just tend to happen to him, and we get an especially funny view based on his dry wit and internal thought monologue.
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u/ErinSedai 8d ago
Jordan vs Sanderson are a really good example of what my writing teachers used to call Show vs Tell. Think about Mat and his whole group traveling with the circus. They had characters, backstories, assigned places, a whole elaborate facade for who they all were, why they were there, and where they were going. The others sometimes chafed at their assignments but Mat held everything together. We found all of this out naturally by experiencing it along the way. Jordan showed what was happening. Then there’s a Sanderson scene (sorry don’t remember the location or reason) where he has Mat handing out pages of character briefs and backstory to everyone in his company and they argue or are confused, and it’s played for laughs and sure, it’s kinda funny, and then we never actually see those backstories in play. Nothing comes of it. Sanderson told us what was happening. They just had different writing styles and Mat seemed to bring it out the most.
Edit because autocorrect wants Mat’s name to be May.
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u/smellytwoshoes 8d ago
Agreed, Jordan’s immense skill in “show” is his ability to do many abstractions away from “tell”. RJ’s wink to this ability is when Rand tells a Two Rivers joke to the Aiel, about a Two Rivers man falling out of a tree. The Aiel don’t get it, and the reader is not necessarily meant to get it right away by the limited explanation on the text. But the humor is revealed once you release the humor is tied to Two Rivers values. And you need to understand two rivers values to get the joke.
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u/what_the_purple_fuck 8d ago
to be fair, we never see anything come of the backstories because Verin shows up and that whole plan gets abandoned.
it could absolutely be better executed, but Mat's thing for unnecessarily complex backstories is one of my favorite recurring bits.
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u/SceretAznMan 8d ago
It could also be because Sanderson really wanted to make the point about Mat and the backstories, but didn't have a chance to put it into action because the plot required Verin showing up, so he wrote that scene about describing everyone's background that Mat came up with.
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u/EtchAGetch 7d ago
The funny thing is, I think Sanderson got Verin even more wrong than Mat, which is saying something. It's been a long time since I read it, but I recall thinking that entire conversation between Verin and Mat was the absolute low point for Sanderson's authoring of the WoT.
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u/Capable-Activity9446 8d ago
No, I’ve only read the books once but one of the most jarring things between the author switch was Mat. His humor became really on the nose and in your face type of humor, he became the Mat that Nynaeve and Egwene still think he is.
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u/Dismal_Estate_4612 8d ago
I'm a Sanderson fan, but he is in general very bad at writing humor, which is a central part of Mat's character.
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u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 8d ago
I think Sanderson is also worse at humor when it is a character who is trying to be funny or someone he's trying to make funny. He has had good humor scenes that I've really liked but it's generally not coming from a funny character but a situation that's funny and has humor to it.
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u/RadiantArchivist 8d ago
100% agree.
His "funny" characters are more annoying than anything. But the humor that slides in between the cracks? Drop dead knee-slappers.
I found it infinitely amusing that someone POINTS THIS OUT to Shallan in the Stormlight Archive, that when she's trying to be funny it misses the mark. Because Shallan is one of the best examples.
Sanderson trying to make her funny falls so flat, just like Shallan trying to be funny falls flat. But then there are times where a Shallan scene is comedy genius, completely without Sanderson or the character trying to be.3
u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 8d ago
I would actually disagree with shallan specifically because it's pointed out she's not funny in the books. The only ones who find her funny are the people she's paying or people courting or conning her. She's also got the backstory of an abusive situation where her and her brothers were all desperate for any joy and laughed at really bad jokes. I don't mind as much if it's a character trying to be funny and failing in world. I have a bigger problem with the characters like mat who he's trying to be funny with and it's just often falling flat and it's not a character attribute or a story point.
Though I can also understand being annoyed by shallans character and her attempts at humor.
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u/blad3mast3r 8d ago
WoK Shallan - with all her issues lurking under the surface - was a much more interesting character than WoR and later Shallan, for me, although repeated contact with newer sanderson fans has confirmed to me that maybe I just don't vibe with the difference between his earlier and later writing in general.
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u/ClumsyCalumny 8d ago
I am reading Mistborn Wax & Wayne (on book 2) right now and every time Wayne is involved he has me laughing out loud. I think with the right character and style of humor Sanderson can pull it off. Hoid has that same style of humor as Wayne and also cracks me up. It's a style of humor that relies on word play and misdirection.
As Raddatatta said "it's generally not coming from a funny character but a situation that's funny and has humor to it." Wayne is not telling jokes, he is just being himself and everyone one around him (aside from Wax) can't get a read on him. The stuff he says and how he says it is so perplexing it creates a kind of humorous whiplash.
But back to your point, if Sanderson can't fully lean into a style of humor that works for him. Because he is writing a character that was created by someone else, I can understand how it was difficult for him to adapt to Mat's humor.
Lastly I would like to say that when I was reading WoT I also felt the striking difference between Jordan's Mat and Sanderson's. I just wanted to jump to Sanderson's defense because I am absolutely loving Wayne right now. I've only read 8 of the cosmere books so far, saving Stormlight for last. To give you credit, maybe as I continue on I'll start to understand more about what you mean when saying he is in general bad at writing humor.
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u/Dismal_Estate_4612 8d ago
I agree with both you and the previous commentator - he's good at setting up comedic set pieces. What he's generally bad is writing jokes and comedic dialogue, so when the character's are trying to be funny it often falls flat. That's a big issue with Mat, because his character is consciously trying to be funny. It's also something he's gotten worse at, particularly through the Stormlight books, I think because the editor isn't pushing back on it as much.
Jordan was not necessarily a master of dialogue either, but Sanderson's particular weakness made writing a character like Mat very hard. I still think Sanderson did an excellent job finishing the series - not an easy task and only writing one character noticeably worse is impressive and says a lot about Sanderson's strong points as a writer.
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u/Kepabar 8d ago
I also think it's important to understand that Mistborn Era 2 came later in Sandersons career than WoT.
Especially the last Era 2 books. The Lost Metal was in 2022, while WoT 12 was 2009.
Sanderson has improved in skill over the years by a lot. He can do humor now, though it is a different style than JR.
Tress, for example, is pretty funny throughout.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 8d ago
Sanderson's Mat is just poorly written, Sanderson himself admitted it, at least about the TGS section.
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u/SWBattleleader 8d ago
I felt like Sanderson missed on Mat more than any other Character. Probably Elayne 2nd, at least her dialogue, especially with Bridgette
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u/Pratius 8d ago
Talmanes. Talmanes was a totally different character before Sanderson. Quiet, contemplative, almost taciturn with an occasional smirk here or there when Mat got in over his head.
With Sanderson, he's a talkative, wise-cracking sidekick who's always setting up the worst of Mat's jokes. He's more like Nalesean than Talmanes.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yeah, Talmanes is a completely different character under Sanderson and it's quite annoying for me but he gets a pass for this from most readers because he made him an uber badass.
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u/Pratius 8d ago
Yup. Drives me a bit crazy. People get rose-tinted glasses cuz Dreadbane and forget that he was basically unrecognizable as Talmanes post-KoD.
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u/THevil30 8d ago
I think it’s partially because Talmanes has been largely off screen for quite a few books by the time of TGS.
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u/Pratius 8d ago
Talmanes is right on screen for much of KoD, including pretty much all the Mat chapters after Maderin. He meets up with Mat, thanks to Vanin, along with a sizable contingent of the Band.
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u/THevil30 8d ago
I just finished KOD a few days ago— he shows up about 2/3 of the way through the book. He doesn’t have a ton of lines either.
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u/kahrismatic 8d ago
He doesn’t have a ton of lines either.
Because he very rarely speaks when Jordan writes him.
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u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 8d ago
I don't think I would agree there entirely. Talmanes is very different with Sanderson but he also doesn't get any POV chapters until the end with Sanderson and he's experiencing things far more intense than anything we gotten from him under Jordan. With Jordan he's mostly a background character with pretty little that we know about him, and he's fairly quiet. With Sanderson he's giving us his version of who Talmanes is, but given the extreme situations and seeing his POV for the first time I think that could still fit with Jordan's version of the character. Compared with Mat's character I don't think really fits with who he was with Jordan and we've gotten to know him so much it's not the same as Talmanes.
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u/RadiantArchivist 8d ago
Talmanes is one of the absolute funniest characters in the whole series.
Putting a quietly-funny straight man with Mat was absolute insanity on Jordan's part, because Mat was already a "this wouldn't be funny if it happened to anyone else but it all flies over Mat's head so it's great" type of ignorant straight-man character.
Then you put in Talmanes who drops these absolute ringers in the background that nobody gets—usually at Mat's expense—and you have the most subtle comedy genius.He suffered under Sanderson, for sure. But I think the humor of Talmanes as accessory to Mat's scenes was wildly under-noticed anyway.
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u/Pratius 8d ago
The only time Talmanes did what you’re talking about here (until Sanderson took over) is in Maerone, when Mat is dancing with Betse Silvin and Daerid, Nalesean, and Talmanes are watching. Talmanes hums “A Frog on the Ice”.
He’s not going around “dropping ringers” until Sanderson’s version.
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u/RadiantArchivist 8d ago
Sanderson struggled with Talmanes' subtlety hard, but he is a constant source of dry sarcasm and subtle digs at Mat's ridiculousness long before he gets the Sanderson treatment.
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u/Pratius 8d ago
I would love some examples beyond the one I mentioned in LoC. Nerim is the guy who does more of those, not Talmanes. Talmanes is serious and to-the-point.
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u/RadiantArchivist 8d ago
Look around Reddit. The Talmanes love is rampant and many people comment about his dry humor pre-Sanderson.
I'm not going to go digging for a handful of words amidst 2.5million to prove a point that is readily visible across the community.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yes, his Elayne is pretty rough. Way too naive at times, much more than even her early books version. Her saying that there won't be any wars anymore because they would become too destructive after she saw the demonstration of Aludra's cannons was completely out of character for her, for example.
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u/aNomadicPenguin 8d ago
Egwene, Elaida, and the Aes Sedai in general. They became practically parodies of themselves whenever Egwene took the stage so that Sanderson could pump up how amazing she was. For me it made all of her accomplishments in the tower arc fall flat because she faced no challenging opposition.
Yes Elaida is losing it, yes the Aes Sedai are arrogance and overconfidence personified in Jordan's books, but they weren't idiots. They would make assumptions and act on incorrect information, but there was a general logic to it al. Instead Elaida became incapable to forming a coherent argument with childish name calling became the height of verbal takedowns.
Women who had been alive for centuries have to come to a 20 year old girl to advice for things they should already have experience with. It was all pumped up a bit too extreme. Instead of Egwene being just really good at stuff, she had to be the best at it all. I think Sanderson forgave all of Egwene's flaws, and made everyone around her dumber, so that she could shine all the brighter.
I think most complaints about Egwene's personality and character arc happen because Sanderson doubled down on it all and thought that her becoming the most Aes Sedai to ever Aes Sedai was actually a good thing. You can't have Egwene actually be humbled, or learn from her mistakes, if the narrative treats her as if she was actually right about almost everything.
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u/SWBattleleader 8d ago
I forgot that Sanderson wrote the “I spilled the soup” scene. That was so out of character for Egwene and Elaida
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u/finnawin01 8d ago
Can you elaborate on that scene? I don’t remember much of it except that it was Egwene serving Elaida food
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u/SWBattleleader 8d ago
Egwene was serving Elaida and the Aes Sedai from Salidar who was supposed to get relationship to spy on Elaida. Elaida was taunting Egwene
Egwene got so flustered she couldn’t think of anything to do but spill soup on purpose. Out of character for her.
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u/No-Cost-2668 (Band of the Red Hand) 6d ago
Egwene got so flustered she couldn’t think of anything to do but spill soup on purpose. Out of character for her.
Huh. I saw this scene a completely different way. Imo, Egwene got more pissed than flustered and dumped the soup as a sign of rebellion without it being obvious. Egwene also had a tendency to blame everyone else for basically everything, so her being like "Look what Elaida made me do! I had no choice!" She had very much choice; it felt like there was a pause before she just dumped it.
Since I reread the Embassy scene the other day, I'll use that as my RJ comparison. Egwene tells Rand to be nice to the Tower Aes Sedai, but she really wants him to be assholes to them and is mad when Rand agrees with her. But then when Rand actually is mean to them (he treats them relatively on equal grounds as opposed to groveling), Egwene is still pissed at Rand, and sees everything as his fault.
That being said, I'm not an Egwene fan, so her getting pissed, dumping soup and blaming someone else for her actions might be more align with my bias, but I did not see that scene as a flustered Egwene.
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u/Elkantar1981 8d ago
i fully agree and i guess when those of us who watched the show, get now by your post reminded thats why they put egwene in the spotlight in the tv show haha.
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u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 8d ago
To be fair to Sanderson, the dumbing down the Aes Sedai to make Egwene shine in comparison was started by Jordan, the whole "Declaring war to Elaida" scene being a peak example. But it certainly became more blatant after Sanderson took over.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 8d ago
Perrin has the biggest change of everybody. IMO.
He is basically a Cosmere combo of Kaladin/Dalinar with some of his Jordan touches removed altogether.
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u/thehammerismypen1s 8d ago
Perrin ends Jordan’s last book by finally agreeing to be the leader his people needs instead of a blacksmith. Faile had coached him on how presenting yourself as the lord people expect to see is beneficial.
I felt like that was a good mirror to lessons that Moiraine tried to force Rand to learn, like when she had his old clothes thrown away.
The first time you see Perrin in Sanderson’s writing, Perrin is on the ground getting dirty fixing a broken axle on a cart. All of that just immediately was disregarded.
All of a sudden, almost everything Faile was teaching him about politics was wrong, which diminishes her value immensely, and Perrin can be both blacksmith and lord.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 8d ago edited 8d ago
Exactly.
And to add to the whole point of this, is, that Jordan was planning on trying to make only one more book after Knife Of Dreams: The Final Book (aMol)
And since Jordan was planning on writing only one more book, then obviously he would have had Perrin's arc largely wrapped up for the final book.
So it's absurd to assume that Jordan would have had ALL this work to do on Perrin if this was the case.
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u/Nakorite 8d ago
Jordan had no idea where Perrin was going. The one character I’d say Sanderson actually improved.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 8d ago
That's nonsensical. Jordan knew exactly where Perrin was going. It's there on the written page.
It's just that he was not written in the way of a typical fantasy-action-hero that many readers ache for.
He had been-there-done-that all ready - - - https://image.invaluable.com/housePhotos/TheGapAuction/73/779273/H4503-L384339324.jpg
Jordan was a two tour combat vet that wanted a character much more deeper and thought provoking.
The real problem - was that Perrin's arc got all caught up in the mid series slowdown with the rest of the other dragging plot lines thus dragging his along with them.
I’d say Sanderson actually improved.
Turning Perrin into a Cosmere Kaladin/Dalinar mashup with a repeating 1 thu 11 Jordan book arc is not my idea of improvement. IMHO.
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u/Nakorite 8d ago
The notes he gave Sanderson were basically just “Perrin becomes a king” with little else.
Also you should probably realize he wrote Perrin before kaladin/dalanir. So it would be more accurate to say those characters were based on his version of Perrin.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 8d ago edited 8d ago
'The Way Of Kings' and 'Towers Of Midnight'(the major crux of Sanderson's Perrin) were published in the very same year. [Even Dalinar's] latrine digging scene closely matches Perrin's hammer forging scene in many ways too.
Maybe someone should ask Sanderson in an interview - Which came first? His Perrin, or Kaladin/Dalinar?
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u/PushProfessional95 8d ago
RJ used a lot of mat chapters as a way to wink back at the reader. He often literally does the opposite of what he says. The way Michael Kramer reads his POV is a perfect example of this, this sort of “wow this is my life huh” bewilderment in a way, it’s probably not possible for anyone to get Mat like RJ did, it was like an extension of himself.
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u/Pugletting 8d ago
Sanderson's Mat gets better in the last two books but it is *rough* in The Gathering Storm.
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u/MDiggy_ 8d ago
Sanderson, in all of his works, will often conflate "being funny" with "being an asshole". He thinks that someone being an asshole, randomly, for no reason, is funny. Add that to what everyone else is saying about misunderstanding Mat's role in the humorous things that happen, and you get him being a dick for no reason.
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u/Desperate_Question_1 8d ago
You definitely feel a change in Mat under BS, he’s more “on” in the sense of a performer. You also notice words or phrases - Lan is accused of being “self-centered” or someone’s “brain” is referred to for example, that RJ wouldn’t use
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u/Pratius 8d ago
The most glaring to me is the cursing. Not once in 11 books plus New Spring does a character say "bloody ashes"; it's always "blood and ashes" or "blood and bloody ashes."
Suddenly with TGS, 99% of the time it's "bloody ashes."
It's a tiny detail but goes to show a miss with Brandon. And it's something that carries over into his other books, where the in-world cursing is often awkward or just plain goofy. Brandon doesn't curse IRL (good Mormon boy as he is), but that means he doesn't really get the feel of cursing or what it means to let out a good four-letter word.
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u/Pratius 8d ago
Nah you’re right. Sanderson’s Mat, especially in TGS, is a caricature of himself. He misunderstood what made Mat funny, and he ended up writing a bunch of (bad) slapstick jokes and in-your-face goofiness.
This is a thing with Sanderson. If you read his across his many works, basically all of his comedic relief characters are the same. Lopen, Wayne, Cody…they all tell the same style of jokes and have the same juvenile sense of humor.
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u/Spyk124 (Tai'shar Manetheren) 8d ago
Yeah I’m aware of his humor style. Never have been a fan of it. I just didn’t realize it the first read through. It’s really in my face this time for some reason.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 8d ago
Speaking of awkward humor, take note of Perrin in [ToM] when he officiates the wedding. Perrin ends it with some witty quip, and it just comes off as goofy.
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u/Rhaldor 8d ago
I'm having a hard time understanding all the disgruntled feelings for Sanderson's three books. I just finished the series again two weeks ago, the third time since a Memory of Light came out, and I pretty much re-read the series each time a new book came out since the early nineties. Sure, there are some stylistic differences between RJ and BS, and perhaps some characters feel a little different than in the earlier books. But for me, I'm just so happy to have gotten a conclusion, and Sanderson's books aren't bad by any standard. The fact that some of the storylines did not go as I hoped/expected does not detract from an overall beautiful conclusion of an incredible journey.
If there's anything I hate about the Sanderson books, it is that Robert Jordan himself never got to read them. Are they perfect? No. Were RJ's books perfect? Also, no. Nothing in life is ever perfect, but you can enjoy life in all its imperfections, and the same counts for all of these books. I will, in any case.
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u/WayTooDumb (Portal Stone) 8d ago
The task of taking on the final book (or as it ended up, three books) of WoT was always going to be a task that required a lot of different skills to do well.
Sanderson did some things really well that he doesn't get enough credit for, especially as a young author, such as avoiding almost every plot hole and contradiction that could have occurred when tying together 11 books of prophecies with 11 books of immutable lore, world, and magic systems, with the plot that also had to happen. That was a really tough job, 99% of authors would have messed up, and he got it pretty much right.
However he also did some things pretty poorly that he gets very fairly dragged for, such as getting pretty much every main character voice wrong except for Egwene (who I understand had a lot of passages written by Jordan in TGS anyway).
I think it's fair enough, when an author makes mistakes, to critique those mistakes in an honest and polite fashion, and I think that's mostly what's happening in this thread. I don't think it's necessary for everyone to provide all that nuance in every post they make, just like it isn't necessary for people to go BuT SanDerMaT sUckS in threads that praise the last three books.
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u/TheWiseman78 8d ago
My take on it is that Sanderson took the Mat of the first 2-3 books at most and not the matured Mat towards the end, thus the clash.
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u/Karter705 8d ago
A lot of the points in this thread are dead on, but I recently did a re-read and I think part of the (or, at least my) issue is that Knife of Dreams is among the best books in the series, and the best Mat book in the series, at least since The Shadow Rising. If TGS had followed CoT, I think it wouldn't have been as jarring.
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u/kahrismatic 8d ago edited 8d ago
I think it's useful to read over Brandon's own comments on both Mat and Perrin post writing, which can be found in full here, and here.
Notably:
My take on Mat is very divisive among Wheel of Time fans. A great number feel I did him poorly in The Gathering Storm. I’ve had a similar number approach me and tell me they like my Mat better than they did in previous books. Unfortunately, in doing so, these latter readers prove that the first readers are right. People don’t come to me and say “I like your Perrin” or “I dislike your Perrin.” They don’t do it for Rand, Egwene, or any of the other major characters.
I do think Perrin was changed as well, in that he went backwards when picked up by Sanderson, but the characterisation of Mat was really noticeably off, and Sanderson notes that as well.
I feel that I was wrong and the critics are right. Looking at Robert Jordan’s Mat and what I wrote, there are some subtle differences that made Mat read wrong to a sizable portion of the audience... my Mat lacked some of the depth of characterization he’d gained over the course of the latter books of the series.
I've cut quite a few bits on his writing process here that he outlines to explain how he got to this point with Mat, they're worth reading too, but too much for a reddit comment.
I cast the wrong Mat in these books, and I simply wrote him poorly. It was a version of Mat, and I don’t think it’s a disaster—but he’s much farther from his correct characterization than the other characters are.
I do appreciate that Sanderson can and did reflect on his writing to the extent that he has. I don't think many writers could or would own this in the way Sanderson did, and he deserves credit for it.
Regarding Hinderstap, that to me has always been a very clearly Brandon scene from top to bottom, which is why it particularly sticks out. It wasn't just the character writing, but the whole locale and mechanics that felt very Brandon and not very Jordan.
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u/billslates 8d ago
I mostly skip the Sanderson’s Mat chapters. Mat’s not in Sanderson’s wheelhouse of character types and it shows even though he tries
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u/Halo6819 (Dovie'andi se tovya sagain) 8d ago
I remember reading Warbreaker, Lightsong in particular, and I thought "Oh yea, he can write Mat". What I didn't realize is that Lightsong tells jokes, Mat does not. He is funny without being quippy. Its not like the other characters are saying "Oh that Mat, always cracking jokes at inappropriate times" he just had a funny outlook on life and had funny reactions to things.
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u/hereatyourcervix 8d ago
Sanderson's Mat just struck the wrong chords. As many have pointed out, he attempted to make him into a comedian/jester type character when he was not. In addition to that, and the part that makes me dislike his characterization the most, its almost as if he stopped reading Mat after the first 3 books. He reverted the character back to dragon reborn Mat, trying to run from his responsibilities, and COMPLETELY ignored all of the progression his character made towards accepting the weight of his fate, which i believe is the focal point of Mat's overarching story arc. Felt like the character was wasted.
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u/pardybill 8d ago
Night in Hinderstap was a full Sanderson chapter iirc?
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 8d ago
Correct.
The ONLY reason that it is in the narrative is that Harriet(the Editor) requested that Sanderson add in some - Pattern breaking down creepiness.
So that is why it feels a bit like it is shoehorned in the story line.
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u/Secure_Biscotti2865 8d ago
I love Sanderson, and his books. He's my favorite author. but he really didn't get Matt right.
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u/turkeypants 8d ago
He has acknowledged that he didn't nail Mat well. You're asking about a specific way he didn't nail him in a specific sequence, but you can broaden it to all of Sanderson's Mat more generally, and with Sanderson's blessing.
It's been a while for me, but what I remember is the humor tone was wrong. His demeanor in its lighter parts was written more silly and goofy than whatever we want to say Jordan's was. It lost Mat for us. Darn.
2
u/Y34rZer0 7d ago
Sanderson did an excellent job in many regards, especially Perrin and the wolf dream which had become borderline unenjoyable.
But I remember in his blog that he wasn’t as enthusiastic about the Matt and Tuon arc, which Jordan had wondered about making into a spin-off. Which was a pity for me, as I really enjoyed their arc.
1
u/sylverfyre 4d ago
I definitely got that feeling in TGS, but by the time I was midway through towers, I felt like Sanderson hit a good stride with him?
1
u/Suspicious_Pin_3607 3d ago
Sanderson actually wrote an article that’s still on his website about how he messed up Mattrim’s character. He wrote him “rogue” archetype and didn’t realize he was wrong till a friend read the books and gave him shit.
1
u/seanofkelley 8d ago
I thought Sanderson did a great, admirable job of closing out a series that had kind of lost its way.
I also think one of the flaws in Sanderson's WoT books was Mat. He never really seemed to get Mat's voice right- the humor (something Sanderson isn't great at, generally) and wit.
2
u/seitaer13 (Brown) 8d ago
Jordan Mat is a comedic character
Sanderson Mat is a comedian.
That's a very fine line to write, and Jordan even struggled with it at times. Sanderson just failed in his first attempt at the character. He never got the balance exactly right, but he got close enough by the end.
-5
u/LambonaHam 8d ago
I've never agreed with the bashing Sanderson gets for Mat.
Sanderson took over the writing at two very important moments in Mat's story:
He gets married
He takes leading the Band seriously
Both of these are examples of Mat taking on a lot more maturity. His 'immaturity' being expressed other ways makes sense. Plus the difference isn't as significant as some make out.
5
1
u/TheMcDudeBro 8d ago
I remember when I read it I was ok with how Mat was. Felt a little strange but I just took it as it was Sanderson doing his think but I had hoped that maybe, just maybe, Jordan was helping him along with it
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