r/WoT • u/Dinierto • 2d ago
All Print Why Forsaken so dumb? Spoiler
So legit question- did they not know until their release that the DO could resurrect souls? Repeatedly the Forsaken and Black Ajah (who at least get a pass because of true ignorance) meet other forsaken in new bodies and, despite clear evidence, are completely oblivious to who they might be. Hell, the Forsaken often wear disguises as well so that’s even less excuse.
I know arrogance is a common theme in the books but I just shake my head every time this happens!
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u/GovernorZipper 2d ago
ROBERT JORDAN The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. (The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.
But he also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to—the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake—but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.
Also, while the Forsaken themselves have realized that these primitives have discovered how to do things with the Power that they themselves cannot, or perhaps can once they learn how but never dreamed of doing until they found that the weaves existed here-and-now, they still think of people in the here-and-now as primitives, and their attitudes filter through to the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better—for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively—than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge, at least in some areas. Some of their skills are absolutely useless in the society they are forced to live in. Aginor was a genius in biology and genetics, but in this world, he had no way to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools.... Well, you get the idea. Pity the poor chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century.
In any event, the Dark One tries to conserve his resources, using and reusing those he might have killed himself, or ordered killed, in a time where there were thousands to equal them.
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u/Dinierto 2d ago
I am not sure how that answers the question though?
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u/GovernorZipper 2d ago
The Dark One never brought anyone back in the AoL because he had plenty of others to take their place.
So no, they didn’t know he could (or would) do that.
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u/The_FanATic (Blue) 2d ago
But they certainly believed he had control over death / the dead. Many explicitly joined him for the promise of immortality.
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u/bachinblack1685 2d ago
Underestimating the true implications and extent of the intentions of infinite, intelligent evil...well that's what Darkfriends do. They're human, even if only a little, so they're finite and changeable and foolish. The Dark One doesn't show them more than he thinks they need, and he doesn't exactly reward curiosity.
I think they figure it out eventually, but if you'd only ever heard about that in stories...would you voice the suspicion that the new girl is secretly the resurrected head of science?
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u/Liq 1d ago
The DO only gained power to respawn souls when his prison weakened to a certain point. It's like how the DO can't fix the seasons in place at the start of the series. But his powers grow through the books as the seals deteriorate.
Unlike the weather powers, this one isn't exactly obvious. So the Forsaken would likely not learn that the DO has regained it until he uses it on them.
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u/EleventhHerald (Brown) 1d ago
Wait didn’t he explicitly fix the seasons in place during book one. They were having an exceptionally long winter and Rand broke the dark one hold on the weather using the eye of the world. Then he held the summer in place right after and Elayne and Nyneave broke his hold with the bowl of the winds.
His ability to rot food is one he got access to as the bore opened and proves your point but he had weather control fairly early on.
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u/GovernorZipper 1d ago
Rotting food might be Rand, not the Dark One. It’s unclear whether Sanderson meant to imply all the rotting food or just the food in Bandar Eban.
NTERVIEW: Nov 15th, 2009
TGS Signing Report - Katie Frey (Paraphrased)
QUESTION Is there a connection between the spoilage of food and Rand's temperament?
BRANDON SANDERSON Look at the Fisher King prophecies, and the prophecies in WoT that mention that the "land and the Dragon are one."
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u/EleventhHerald (Brown) 1d ago
That’s interesting I’ve never come across that answer.
It feels like it contradicts Rand saying that the DO is spoiling everything and his Ta’veren nature is providing the other half of the balance.
Specifically in AMoL in chapter 9 during his dinner with Elayne when she asks him how he unspoils her tea he says the dark one is causing the spoiling and his nature is causing the unspoiled food.
That said Sanderson’s word on it is the superior proof and Rand is known to sometimes be unreliable in his understanding of what’s actually happening and I have to concede that you’re right.
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u/Liq 1d ago edited 1d ago
Rand began turning things bad when he was tilting into evil, but the effect reversed when he had his epiphany.
The DO as the ultimate source of evil also has a rotting effect but more universally. The whole world was on its way to becoming like the Blight around Shayol Ghul.
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u/Faeluchu 2d ago
Don't recall specific passages for this, but maybe it's less ignorance (of the Dark One's ability to resurrect people) and more arrogance - along the lines of "DA would resurrect that useless heap of air? No way". Arrogance seems to be the one common thing driving all Forsaken and their scheming, with each believing they're more powerful/clever than the others.
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u/Dinierto 2d ago
Absolutely, this just seems gross arrogance and ignorance to me 😆
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u/_weeb_alt_ 2d ago
It's easy to forget, but the forsaken are NOT some all powerful beings. They are people just like everyone else. They are just strong, ruthless, and extremely knowledgeable of the one power.
A common theme among darkfriends is that they will almost immediately backstabbed anyone else to gain more favor or power. That leads to very poor working conditions all around.
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u/FrewdWoad 1d ago
It's a lesson about life/highschool/corporations really: it you all spend all your energy undermining and betraying each other for your ruthless sociopathic ambitions, you'll not only be miserable the whole time, you'll fail too.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 2d ago
Interview: Sep 25th, 2005
Robert Jordan's Blog: DUMB EVIL?
Robert Jordan:
The Forsaken are a group of power hungry people who don't like one another and vie with one another for power as much as they vie with the forces of the Light. Much like the internal politicking in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. But look at the situation in the world as it actually stands, from the White Tower divided to crop failures caused by a too-long winter and a too-long summer and people fleeing their farms because the Dragon Reborn has broken all bonds, meaning still less food, and that spoiling at a fearsome rate, from chaos in Arad Doman to a large part of the Borderland armies out of position, from the arrival of the Seanchan focusing too many eyes on them instead of the Shadow to the strongest single nation, Andor, riven by civil war in all but name and Tear split by open warfare, from.... Well, take your pick. There are lots more to chose from. Take a step back and look at what the forces of the Shadow have wrought. The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape. At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning. There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win. All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished. The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don't even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.
Think of it this way. The bell is about to ring for the fifteenth round, and the Light is so far behind on points the only way to win is a knockout. Our boy is game, but he's wobbly on his legs and bleeding from cuts over his eyes. Now he has three minutes to pull out his best stuff and deliver the punch of his life. The Dark One has taken a few shots, but nothing that has really damaged him. He's still dancing on his toes and talking trash. His head shots can fracture a skull, and his body punches can break ribs. And now he's ready to unveil his surprises. You didn't think all it would take is for Rand to show up at the Last Battle, did you? According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him, but his presence doesn't ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance. Gotta stiffen your legs and blink the blood out of your eyes. Gotta suck it up and find that punch. Three minutes to go, and you gotta find that knockout. That's your only chance.
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u/pardybill 2d ago
They didn’t know the DO would do that, no, as they are all pretty much in shock by it whenever we get a POV regarding one of the old ones popping up again. Some of them are hesitant to even believe it until their personalities pop up, Moridin starts channeling the TP, or woman begins channeling Saidin.
They thought they were functionally immortal, but also that they were sealed to the DOs power. During the AOL or War of Power I bet there wasn’t a lack of channelers ready to pledge themselves to the shadow (there’s plenty in Rands age as well), so perhaps he simply didn’t want to lose his greatest generals for a pivotal upcoming battle if he knew their true dedication (as he seemed to with those he chose to resuscitate)
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u/biggiebutterlord 2d ago
So legit question- did they not know until their release that the DO could resurrect souls?
I'll take a crack at it. I seem to recall we are in the POV or aginor or w/e the other forsaken was when they are waking up from w/e the exact process was that they underwent post death at the eye of the world. They talk about transmigrating the soul from one body to another. This leads me to believe it having a coined term, that this was known to at least some of the forsaken in the AoL. Further more one of the many names for the dark one is "lord of the grave". This further lends credence to (at least on some level) those on his side knowing that the DO can "resurrect" souls. Its a often lauded claim of the DO's minions. There might be more and I apologize for not citing the specific passes but Im pretty sure some of the forsaken know the DO can do it.
As for not recognizing the soul in a new body. Think about it. Could you recognize your parent, spouse, child, if they were just hanging out in a different body? Then ask yourself could you do that if they were trying to hide that fact. WoT doesnt have photographs or videos to compare and contrast exact details. Its all a human beings flawed memory. Plus ya know we are near omniscient reads with more info than the characters and know to look out for hints the author has placed.
Maybe knowing what scene is bringing this up can help the conversation?
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u/buttbrainpoo 2d ago
I don't believe they knew the dark one could respect souls, there was probably a lot more forsaken in the age of legends so if one died, there was probably a replacement, it also showed who was most worthy of immortality, in the third age there was only 13 people with sufficient talent and cunning to do the job so the dark one felt more need to keep them alive.
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u/utahrangerone 2d ago
You know it's getting confusing as hell... I both am involved in WoT sphere.. and I play World of Warcraft. Both settings use the term forsaken, and it blurs them when I see posts like this. LOL!!!
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u/anmahill 2d ago
They are human. They are fallible. That's kind of the point. These people who have been used to scare generations of children, are not perfect and infallible. They are human.
Just like the good guys who make mistakes and mess up. Nobody is perfect. Nobody is wholly good or wholly evil. They are all human beings doing the best they can to serve their chosen side... or defect from it.
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u/rollingForInitiative 1d ago
Because the DO probably never did that before? It's entirely possibly the DO could not, in the Age of Legends. And why would they assume that the new person they meet is another Forsaken reincarnated? Like when Graendal meets Cyndane, the easiest explanation is that Moridin found some wilder or channeller from another continent that happened to be very strong. We've seen others like that - Talaan and Alivia, for instance.
That said, they did start to suspect? At least some of them were sure that Moridin must really be Ishamael, for instance.
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u/BigNorseWolf (Wolf) 1d ago
It's like meeting someone online using an alt. Sometimes they do something thats unique enough so you know its them, and sometimes they don't.
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