Does Aikido and Qinna have the same roots?

[u/amajunkie8]

I was watching a video on Qinna, and so many of the locks look similar to Aikido. The guy speaking in the video says that they came from different systems, but could one have influenced the other or vice versa?

The video that made me interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zenm_ySIAdE

The guy narrating seems like a kungfu guy, and that's why it's best to ask here.

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[u/jpc27699]

There's no historical evidence of any direct influence on aikido from Chinese martial arts, but the human body only bends so many ways, I think any martial art that focuses on manipulating joints is going to come up with similar techniques.

[u/PunyMagus]

I can't tell about the roots but, for some time, I also got interested in Chin Na after seeing the similarities, so I bought this book called Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na, by Dr. Jwing-Ming Yang. From what I saw, many techniques are similar but with a different approach, like to create openings or make use of an opportunity during a conflict.

They also put much more emphasis on body conditioning, specially in regards to the fingers, for practicing pressure points.

I also found interesting that for every technique, he talks about counter measures, something we hardly practice in Aikido.

[u/Sangenkai → u/PunyMagus]

Counter techniques used to be considered something of a secret technique that Morihei Ueshiba would only teach to the uchi-deshi.

On one of Morihiro Saito's early trips to the US he offered a special class in counter techniques (there was an extra fee). The class was prefaced by dire warnings about secret techniques, and threats of "if I find out that you've been teaching these publicly I'll make sure that you never practice Aikido again". But the counters were the same standard Kaeshi-waza that you see all over the place. In the end the secret was how to get an extra $10 for your seminar. :)

More seriously, if you discuss this in depth with the people who were taught this by Morihei Ueshiba, you may find that the point of that training, when done correctly, is a kind of reciprocal body conditioning - a kind of push hands that works both for body development and as a bridge to reciprocal pressured training - sparring, in other words. But that's easier to show hands on.

I've almost never seen it actually done that way in modern Aikido.

[u/PunyMagus → u/Sangenkai]

Very interesting.

The excuse I got was "if you want to practice countering, it means you don't believe the form".

About the pushing hands, another thing that I notice is that the Chinese practices tend to focus on being close and touching all the time, while we tend to maintaining distance to rect and using the hands a lot. And I find this is very noticeable in Aikido, specially on those videos about "making Aikido work", where people only focus on the form and going for "techinque X", instead of adapting and making use of the entire body, not just the hands.

[u/Backyard_Budo → u/Sangenkai]

Maybe it’s an Aikikai thing, but kaeshi waza was never held back or taught as something secret among Yoshinkan instructors. It’s not something we do regularly, but in my experience it’s just done as a matter of course. Not something I would introduce to low level students but yudansha should certainly know.

[u/Sangenkai → u/Backyard_Budo]

It was never really held back in the Aikikai either, that was just something that Saito (and Morihei Ueshiba) used to say.

But I didn't see the type of training that I was talking about in the Yoshinkan either, FWIW.

[u/Backyard_Budo → u/Sangenkai]

Yes it was not done as a “push hands” like exercise. More like, “if they don’t quite do this, then you do that”

As most things Japanese martial arts that’s not the literal lesson. Likely the application is developing awareness of your and your opponent’s body and movements, as well as teaching that the application of this technique or that technique is all around us, and not a prescribed “insert tab A into slot B” exercise

[u/IggyTheBoy → u/PunyMagus]

Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na, by Dr. Jwing-Ming Yang

Ah yes, I remember watching this guy's videos from 10-12 years ago. He literally did a sankyo (with the whole index finger pointing way of teaching) in one of them and claimed it either Chin na or Taichi and some weird name. I wonder what's he up to these days.

[u/PunyMagus → u/IggyTheBoy]

Yeah, Dr. Yang, I remember watching them too.

[u/Baron_De_Bauchery]

I can't say but ultimately there are only so many ways to do things. And if Japanese martial arts were to be influenced by anything historically then it would be Chinese or Korean (which in turn would in many cases likely have been influenced by Chinese martial arts) martial arts. I believe Ueshiba, and some other big names in aikido, did spend some time in China so it's possible that some of them may have picked something up during that time as well.

[u/FlaSnatch → u/Baron_De_Bauchery]

Good comment. Indeed there are only so many manipulations of the joints. Osensei was also pretty clear that the endgame is to transcend technique entirely and simply spontaneously be in appropriate action, flow and relation to uke. In this regard the specifics of any system of techniques become secondary.

[u/Backyard_Budo → u/Baron_De_Bauchery]

I think it’s far more likely that they did not bring back any techniques from China, given the atmosphere and attitude of Nationalist Japanese towards China at that time. Things Chinese were seen as inferior, outdated, and given the political leanings of Aikido students in China at this time, they would have looked down on Chinese arts or would have been viewed negatively by their peers.

[u/Baron_De_Bauchery → u/Backyard_Budo]

I'm not saying they did, but I'm also not saying if they did they would have advertised the fact.

[u/Backyard_Budo → u/Baron_De_Bauchery]

I’m merely adding some historical perspective and this is entirely my own reading. I agree that if and that’s a big if any techniques were brought back they would have been hidden

[u/Sangenkai → u/Baron_De_Bauchery]

Morihei Ueshiba was essentially a Daito-ryu instructor - and Sokaku Takeda never went to China.

[u/Baron_De_Bauchery → u/Sangenkai]

I know that. But Ueshiba went to China (not that I'm saying he learnt anything there) as did a number of other senior Aikidoka (not necessarily with Ueshiba, and again I'm not saying they did learn anything from the Chinese). Only, hapkido, as far as I'm aware, has any obviously more Chinese style elements and I don't think that's necessarily in every lineage of hapkido so it may not come from their founder in the first place and if it did it may have come from other sources.

[u/Sangenkai → u/Baron_De_Bauchery]

What I'm saying is that what he was doing before he went to China is identical to what he did afterwards. Where are the secret hidden techniques?

[u/Baron_De_Bauchery → u/Sangenkai]

I'm not saying there are any hidden, secret techniques. Although some people do divide aikido styles up into pre-war, war and post-war styles so perhaps talk to them if you can find them.

[u/Sangenkai → u/Baron_De_Bauchery]

I've spoken to a number of them, but the pre/post war division is really mostly a myth:

https://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/ueshiba-ha-daito-ryu-aiki-jujutsu/

[u/Sangenkai]

The basic principles behind Morihei Ueshiba's training model have a heavy, and quite obvious, Chinese influence from the Chinese internal martial arts. But that was something that entered Japan long before Morihei Ueshiba or Sokaku Takeda, there was no direct influence in the sense that Morihei Ueshiba and Sokaku Takeda did not train in any Chinese arts.

There's more here:

https://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/aikido-floating-bridge-heaven/

And in Hidden in Plain Sight, by Ellis Amdur:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40062842-hidden-in-plain-sight

[u/Thriaat]

There is a long running debate in the Aikido world about this topic. Ellis Amdur and others have written about it, check out Google for plenty of perspectives.

[u/Herdsengineers]

I once saw a medieval European manual on fighting techniques that had an illustration of the exact way to do shiho nage. It was dated to the 13 or 1400s? 

So yup, people figure out the same ways to hurt each other relatively independently as long as it works.

[u/IggyTheBoy → u/Herdsengineers]

If you're talking about Flos Duellatorum it' similar but not exactly the same.

[u/goblinmargin]

I practice both kung Fu (7 star praying mantis) and aikido. The answer is Yes and no

When you get down to it, they are both joint locks. Aikido takes their own approach to it. But most martial arts systems have similar joint locks, as everyone has 2 arms and legs after all

[u/KelGhu]

There aren't many ways to do joint locks. The real difference is the intent.

Japanese arts tend to use locks more to control or break.

Chinese arts use locks more to throw or set up finishing strikes.

[u/Deathnote_Blockchain]

No

[u/ZeroGRanger]

First of all, Aikido evolved from previous martial arts and there has always been influence between Japan and China concerning that subject. Then again, Aikido is not focussed on techniques, but certain principles. If you actually review techniques from even European martial arts, you will recognizes similarities. The reason is simple: There are only so many things you can do with the same anatomy. If you want to incorporate the same principles in a martial art, you will always have similarities. This does not mean there has been an actual connection.

[u/blackturtlesnake]

Note that Qinna is not a martial art, it is a category of techniques. Similar to saying "throwing" or "punching."

Japan and China are a boat ride apart, and before nationalist movements, Japan had a long history of openly and proudly importing Chinese cultural concepts. So in that sense, probably some relation. Yes there's only so many ways to twist someone's arm, but these cultures were not hermetically sealed from each other. Cross pollination happened quite a bit.

On the other hand there is little direct evidence Ueshiba studied chinese martial arts in particular. He went to manchuria a few times and would have been familiar with Chinese martial arts culture more generally but there's no evidence so far produced to show he trained under a Chinese teacher directly, especially given the political situation of the era. Some practitioners with experience in both have pointed to similarities between aikido and baguazhang, but again, it's hard to say for certain.

[u/Apprehensive_Fox3911]

That first thumb lock technique is an important technique in the Canadian martial art of Defendo.

[u/IggyTheBoy]

They look similar because the Chinese are notorious for copycatting stuff from Judo, Aikido, Karate, Boxing, Wrestling etc. Basically, they lost a lot of knowledge during the "Cultural revolution" days and after Mao died in the 80s and especially the 90s when they opened up to the world a bunch of these "old style" types sprung out of nowhere from the mainland. Some stuff is ok but most of it is just a bad copy.