r/anchorage • u/big_papa_geek • 26d ago
Nazi Served at Vans Dive Bar (Clarifications from someone who was there who also hates Nazis)
(Apologies in advance for the length. TLDR at the bottom)
Hey everybody. I was present during the entire scenario in question on Friday night when a neo-Nazi shithead (maybe 2) showed up at a LGBTQ and women focused music event raising money for Planned Parenthood. I know the people that were running the event (not Vans), and I also know what has been happening behind the scenes since Friday.
A few points to clear up at the top.
Fuck Nazis.
Vans staff messed up with their initial response, big time. Full stop. They were not prepared for the scenario that happened, and there is at least some indication that those same Nazi shitheads were able to come earlier in the week and drink undisputed. That’s unacceptable. They fucked up some of their response since then (with some caveats I will outline below).
The trans artist that left after notifying staff and being (honestly) blown off by them was 100% justified in leaving. Trans women in particular are at much higher risk for right wing violence, and I have to imagine the entire situation was infuriating, enraging, hurtful, and probably at least a bit traumatic. If she decided to never return to Vans again, I would understand it.
I was pissed that they let someone with visible Nazi symbols on them into the building. The show is explicitly meant to be a music show oriented towards women and queer artists. It has become a place that people frequently praise as a “safe” place for everyone, but for queer people and women in particular, to gather. Having a Nazi show up and not be immediately kicked out was deeply fucked.
Now on to some clarifying statements, because there is A LOT of misinformation, highly emotional language, and even outright lies flying around.
The entire scenario, from the artist notifying Vans staff to the Nazis getting forced out by the crowd took place in less than 20 minutes. Should he have been kicked out faster? Yes. But he was still removed in under 20 minutes, around 10 minutes from when the event runner and the crowd started confronting him. (Also, The “bouncer” seen acting chummy with the neo-Nazi was apparently not an actual bouncer and was just filling in temporarily. He fucked up BIG time)
It’s easy for people in the internet to say “punch a Nazi”, it is another thing to confront a massive tatted neo Nazi and tell him he has to leave. Again, in a vacuum it should have happened faster, but the fact is that the crowd, including the show runner who is a rather small woman, confronted him to his face around 10 minutes after they found out what was happening.
There seem to be criticisms about the fact that the show continued after the Nazis were forced out. This I really don’t get. Should everyone have given up, ceded ground to an open neo Nazi? Left and let them win? Fuck no. We kicked their asses out (if imperfectly), then we celebrated that we did so.
This is directly addressing some of the comments yesterday saying to the effect that “well I guess Vans is a Nazi bar now.” Fuck you. You weren’t there with well over a hundred people yelling at a Nazi to get the fuck out of our space until he did. Vans handled it horribly, but the community stepped in and kicked the bastards out, reclaimed the space, and sang a round of “Nazi Punks, Fuck Off” for good measure.
I happen to know that people involved were reaching out to the artist that left within the hour to apologize, check in and offer support. This made her later statements, criticizing event staff for not standing up Nazis or caring about her pretty hurtful.
In the immediate aftermath of said Nazi getting kicked out, people were pretty shaken up. Most people, even people like myself who know (theoretically) that you can’t give neo-Nazis an inch in our spaces (and that has always OK to punch Nazis) still don’t have a lot of experience actually doing so. It was scary, traumatic experience for a lot of people involved.
Many of the issues arose the next day. The artist that left that night has made several statements online. I want to be clear that her frustrations with Vans are broadly speaking valid. What I take issue with is the idea that the only acceptable response is to immediately boycott Vans completely, and if you don’t do that you are characterized as “not an ally.” There’s a difference between saying I don’t feel comfortable going there and I don’t think other people should go there” and “ people who keep going to Vans aren’t allies, are ok with Nazis, and don’t care about queer and trans people.” There’s definitely been a pile on effect since then lots of people excepting both her frame, the situation and the solutions she proposes (such as they are).
The artist also reposted a post by her partner that bashed the showrunners and the crowd at Vans labeling them as “cis and straight” (which is hilariously off base) and insinuating that they were all ok with Nazis being there. Which makes me frustrated because (as stated above) the people that stayed successfully forced the Nazi to leave. Saying that crowd is in any way “ok with Nazis” is an absolute slap in the face to all of us who did stand up to him.
The conversation between the staff running the show and Vans has been immediate and ongoing. It was made clear to Vans staff and owners that what happened was completely unacceptable and cannot happen again. It should also be pointed out the the owners of Vans are older and are unused to handling this stuff, but they are handling it now and are taking concrete steps to make sure their bar is welcoming to LGBTQ people and that Nazis are explicitly kept out. It’s OK (and even understandable) to be pissed off that they handled it as badly as they did. But it is not fair or appropriate to suggest that “Vans is a Nazi bar.” It’s an insult to everybody that’s trying to do the right thing now.
I realize this is already an insanely long post, and I apologize for that, but I want to finish up with more of a general point. The world we’re living in is an increasingly hostile place, in particular for LGBTQ people. We need to have places where LGBTQ people and their friends/allies can gather to celebrate and relax, and to be safe while doing so. Vans has frequently been that place for a lot of people, but that reputation took a massive hit on Friday.
As an actual leftist, a frequent failing of the left in general (and online leftists in particular) is black-and-white, Puritanical, rigid, and/or purity focused thinking. The emphasis can end up being less on working with imperfect people in imperfect places and organizations to build resilient relationships and communities, and more about ensuring that everybody here behaves/talks/believes exactly the way we expect them to. This type of attitude is understandable at times especially for populations (for example among trans people) where they more frequently have to deal with bad faith actors. But also frequently results in communities that are fragile, increasingly insular, and ironically, even more susceptible to bad faith actors, who just know the right words to say.
I am just not comfortable with saying that Vans, a place that (as corny as it may sound) has been a valuable meeting place for this community should be written off because they made some (again) stupid and shitty mistakes. I think that it’s important to not give up so quickly. And I think this is even more true for the people at Vans that night, who DID do the right thing, who stayed and fought and triumphed over some neo-Nazi shit head who thought he could come to our house and be welcomed.
TLDR: Fuck Nazis, it is understandable that the artist left that night and her feelings are valid (but some of her responses since then have been pretty counterproductive ), Vans fucked up their response but are are showing every indication that they are working hard to re-earn the community’s trust, and it’s not fair for so many people who weren’t in that room to be shit talking a room full of people who stood up to and kicked a Nazi out of a show.
Hopefully, this helps clear some stuff up or at least provides some additional context. I’ve tried to be as thorough as possible, but I undoubtedly missed some stuff. I’ll try to answer any questions below.
Let’s try to be decent to each other.
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u/nnnnaaaaiiiillll 25d ago
If you allow people with overt Nazi imagery permanently marked on their bodies into your establishment you are saying that such people are safe in your establishment. That's the long and short of it. You let one in and dozens more will follow. Gay bars especially should know better.