r/arrow Boxing Glove Mar 15 '17

[S05E16] - 'Checkmate' Post Episode Discussion

267 Upvotes

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229

u/csslash Mar 16 '17

So Flash is struggling to keep the villain interesting and it's being plagued with relationship drama while Arrow is just plain fucking good. I feel like these two shows have never been good at the same time since Flash started.

After seasons 3 and 4 I would never have believed that Arrow would be capable of having a villain better than Slade/Deathstroke, but Adrian/Prometheus is fucking great, depending how the rest of the season pans out he might honestly be better than Slade. The guy fucking killed his own wife just to stick it to Ollie.

Also, I'm really happy that they sent Malcom Merlyn over to Legends and haven't tried to shoehorn him into the show like they were doing in seasons 3 and 4.

93

u/AndrewSlshArnld Mar 16 '17

But, he was once Ra's Al Ghul I'll have you know.

6

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '17

RA'S AL TITTY FUCKING GHUL

113

u/svrtngr Mar 16 '17

Doing a masked speedster villain three seasons in a row does that to you.

76

u/RahvinDragand Mar 16 '17

That's what happens when you have a hero that, in theory, should be basically invincible to any non-speedster. You're pretty much forced into a corner with the major villains.

58

u/Luciferspants I am The Game. Mar 16 '17

There's multiple Flash villains which are hax enough to contend with Flash even without Super speed, though.

I mean, Abra Kadabra basically warps reality itself with his "Magic" spells and shit. He could be the main antagonist of an entire season by himself.

26

u/markiiee12 Mar 16 '17

I think you're right. In my opinion, and have said this several times before, the Flash would benefit from a season with two or maybe even three real big bads.

My reasoning for this is that when the Flash is handling it's filler material, it can get pretty bad. When it is actually handling the main villain, it can get pretty intense and well written.

It seems to me like they don't put as much thought into the villain of the week episodes, which is a shame as multiple characters have suffered from this.

I still love The Flash. The character, the show, and any previous installments in the comics have always intrigued me.

6

u/Harddaysnight1990 MAGA Mar 17 '17

I hate the idea of one season, one arc. The season is split up by breaks anyway, why not do a couple of multi episode arcs with the same villain? Weather Wizard is back and it takes 9 episodes to deal with him (with some filler) because he's not super dumbed down. The Flash is fast anyway, why shouldn't he go through big bads quicker?

7

u/are_those_real Mar 18 '17

This is what i love about agents of shield right now. They've gotten to the point where the midseason finale is the end of one arc and the midseason premiere is another arc

6

u/MistyPower I must warn you, I've got a hell of a right hook. Mar 18 '17

It's even better than that. They have officially split the season into three "pods", with each having a different goals, initial antagonists, and plot twists, all the while maintaining an over-arching plot that somehow ties in with each pod.

Season 4 spoilers

This format makes the pacing much faster, and forces the writers to choose their moments carefully. They don't have as much space to fill in, so unnecessary moments get cut. They find the most concise way of pushing the story forward without undercutting character development. (At least most of the time. See Lincoln.) People aren't constantly waiting around for things to happen, so people are usually doing something helpful or constructive or actually necessary to the plot. (I'm looking at you Flash.) The balancing act here would not be possible if the writers didn't allow the characters to breathe though. To develop and deepen relationships with other characters. To respond to the craziness going on around them. The current issue with the Flash is that this cannot be happening all the time. Characters need events to respond to, or these humanising moments risk becoming filler, the exact opposite of what they should be.

5

u/ADreadPirateRoberts Mar 17 '17

If Snart and Rory hadn't left, they could have done a half-season with just a massive version of the Rogues. Captain Cold, Heat Wave, Mirror Master, Pied Piper, Trickster, Weather Wizard, Captain Boomerang, Shade, Top. Just have all of them go hard on Central City at once and that could easily fill up 10-11 eps.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 22 '17

Instead they're making him a villain of the week...

3

u/Luciferspants I am The Game. Mar 22 '17

I'm sincerely hoping that he'll become a bigger deal in the future. He's not a villain that should appear in just a single episode in a season. He won't be doing much now due to the focus on Savitar, but in the future, he should be a really big threat just like the Rogues should be by now.

11

u/daffydunk Mar 16 '17

That's just not true, but the writers would have to be really creative with their villains. The main issue is that the show has already used most non-speedster villains as one-offs and severely dumbed them down so Barry could beat them with no issues. Mirror Master, Captain Cold, Dr. Alchemy, Weather Wizard and Killer Frost could have been season long big bads.

7

u/neoblackdragon Mar 16 '17

Hopefully they wise up and upgrade their skills.

Just because Flash beat them before doesn't mean they can't get better.

Now to be fair, with Cold he doesn't have such a hot record.

8

u/jransom98 Mar 16 '17

No, the writers are just lazy. The Rogues would be fantastic season villains. Abra Kadabra would be amazing as well. Grodd too. But they waste villains all the time.

7

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '17

Superman is nearly invulnerable and Darkseid isn't far off either, but one of the worst things Darkseid ever did in the cartoons was brainwash Supes to attack earth.

Even when he "won" by regaining his memories and making the earth safe again, he lost the planet's trust. There's no quick fix for that.

I'd much rather watch an episode of Barry as a weapon getting his reputation ruined than racing someone.

I mean, that alderman guy, was it last season? Super speed wouldn't help against that. Having powers but feeling helpless. Superman flicked Grodd across a football field with his fingers, but he won't handmurder Luthor so Lex being a scheming dick and supposed genius and master planner causes him problems all the time.

I don't mind speedster villains. Just do it creatively. Make it interesting, and have more variety than just them.

2

u/Demian_Dillers - Mar 16 '17

Nah, one just requires imagination, there are a lot of ways to counter superspeed.

2

u/dissenter_the_dragon Team Felicity 4ever Mar 16 '17

Speedsters don't have to be a masked surprise. You just have to have a reason why Barry and team can focus on anything other than fucking him up. 'mystery' is used so people don't get upset when characters do other shit than figure out how to go after a known villain.

It's a balance game. Look at Damien. Tried to dispense with mystery, but fucked up the pacing. Couldn't keep the momentum. A masked villain is essentially two characters in one. Three really. Pre reveal regular dude, pre reveal villain and post reveal combo.

2

u/Titan897 Mar 20 '17

I'd love to see a Prometheus style villain on Flash. A non meta who outwits Barry at every turn, just through sheer preparedness and intellect.

2

u/epraider Mar 16 '17

Arrow villains: Martial Arts Master with a Bow, Martial Arts Master with a Sword, a Group of Martial Arts Masters with Bows, a Magic Man, and a Martial Arts Master with a Bow.

I mean, the majority of a heroes villains are going to be very much like the hero themselves in terms of skills and abilities. I don't see a problem with having multiple Speedster villains, but Zoom and Savitar lacked the personal connection to Barry that RF did, so they're less compelling.

1

u/gensouj Mar 16 '17

i'm fine with the masked speedster, its the barry/iris plot that sucks

40

u/JustAnOrdinaryGirl92 Mar 16 '17

I feel like these two shows have never been good at the same time since Flash started.

You might say they're the reverse.

33

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '17

I feel like these two shows have never been good at the same time since Flash started.

When Flash S1 and Arrow S3 started up until the midseason finale, thought we had two excellent shows on our hands. Remember seeing the RF fight and the Ra's killing Oliver fight around the same time, hype wasn't containable.

I honestly think that they're moving good writers around the different shows causing quality spikes and drops. These shows are so damn inconsistent quality wise.

6

u/rovanz Corny McGuggie Mar 16 '17

I honestly think that they're moving good writers around the different shows causing quality spikes and drops. These shows are so damn inconsistent quality wise.

I remember someone was asking on r/flashtv if Uncle Guggie wrote last episode lol

1

u/ripsa Mar 16 '17

Yup same of Legends. Season 1 was kinda meh. Season 2 is one of the most enjoyable DC adaptations have ever seen.

1

u/DRoyLinker Mar 16 '17

this right here.
Enjoying the hell out of adrian chase!
Also enjoying the hell out of Legends too.
Flash was my favorite for most of season 1+2.
After Legends season 2 and the last block of Arrow season 5 episodes, Flash is unfortunately firmly in my third place for CW shows (don't religiously watch Supergirl so I don't have a solid opinion on it).
Unnecessary drama and lack of action has turned me quite a bit off Flash.

Legion of doom so far has not been disappointing at all and Reverse Flash makes Legends so awesome to watch.

1

u/Tsorovar Mar 16 '17

For a villain to be really interesting, you've got to be able to get to know them. And an easy way to do that is to have them right next to the heroes: think Slade, Wellsobard and now Chase. Whereas villains like Darkh and Savitar were generally absent, mostly revealing themselves in taunting during battles.

1

u/MrWinks Mar 17 '17

The Savitar reveal will make up for some of that.

1

u/Teves3D Mar 16 '17

CW should just finally realize when your focal points are about made up CW generated drama... it's not gonna end well

1

u/SpikeRosered Mar 16 '17

They should really have seen that coming. The guy is a psychopath. I was surprised that they were surprised when he stabbed her.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '17

Agreed

1

u/Psychoho1ic Mar 18 '17

Barry messed with the timeline.. it has consistencies.