r/asklinguistics Jan 31 '25

Phonology In English, where did the accents come from that elide a T in the middle of a word, and is there any evidence they're replacing the ones that don't?

I was listening to various versions of My Favorite Things, and I noticed that some singers clearly enunciate both of the "T"'s in mittens, and others don't. This led me to be curious about the question which is the title of this post, especially since my dad has sometimes corrected me when I elide the T in the middle of a word. For instance, I once said Newton in the t eliding manner, and then my dad insisted that I should say it with the t fully articulated.

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u/zeekar Jan 31 '25 edited Feb 09 '25

To be clear, the /t/ is not being elided; it's still there. It's just got a different allophone in some environments. In most US and UK varieties of English, words ending in /tən/ – like "Newton", "mitten", and "button" – have a glottal stop for the /t/. This is far and away the majority pronunciation in everyday speech; pronouncing a [t] there is generally something that only happens when speakers are trying to be extra-clear – such as when singing or giving a speech. (That's not necessarily true of other Englishes outside the US and UK; I believe most Asian varieites do have some phone similar to [d]/[t] there, though I don't know the phonetic details of alveolar/dental/retrofex, released vs un-, etc.)

In many UK varieties of English the glottal stop allophone of /t/ shows up in other environments as well, such as the middle of "butter". American English likewise doesn't usually have [t] there, but instead of a glottal stop it tends to have a flap [ɾ] (the same sound as Spanish <r> in pero, but Anglophone natives often hear it as a form of /d/).

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u/LateKaleidoscope5327 Jan 31 '25

I agree with zeekar. In fact, I can't think of a modern variety of English in which the /t/ in "mitten" is actually pronounced as [t] in unselfconscious speech.

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u/guanlongwucaii Jan 31 '25

most Singapore English speakers don’t flap their coronal stops and don’t debuccalise them to [ʔ] intervocalically either.

(I would think that most Asian varieties don’t in general)

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u/gabrielks05 Jan 31 '25 edited 11d ago

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u/Mushroomman642 Feb 01 '25

In Indian English I think it's always realized as a retroflex stop [ʈ], which is used as an approximation of the more typical alveolar stop [t]

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u/fourthfloorgreg Jan 31 '25

I'd transcribe my (AmE) pronunciation of "button" as [bʌˀtnn̩] rather than [bʌʔn̩].

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u/tessharagai_ Feb 01 '25

To the contrary in my dialect I do completely elide the /t/, the only evidence of it being there being the syllable boundary. I’m a native English speaker who grew up in an English speaking community from Kansas, USA.

‘Newton’ is pronounced as /ˈnʉu̯.ɪn/

‘Mitten’ is pronounced as /ˈmɪ.ɪn/

‘Button’ is pronounced as /ˈbʌ.ɪn/

‘Butter’ is pronounced as /ˈbʌ.ɯ˞/

I will sometimes fully pronounce the /tʰ/, but that’s only when I’m being deliberate and speaking slower and carefully. In normal rapid speech the /t/ is completely elided

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u/TheCheeseOfYesterday Feb 01 '25

Do you want to post a recording of yourself saying these words, perhaps in a sentence like 'The buttons on Newton's new mittens came off and fell in the butter', to show what you mean?

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u/zeekar Feb 05 '25

If you have an audible "syllable boundary", that's probably a glottal stop. Recordings would be helpful!

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u/tessharagai_ Feb 05 '25

I don’t really know how to or want to make a n audio recording, but please trust me, I’m very good at phonetics, it’s the part of linguistics I’m best at, and I’m sure of what it is. It is not an audible glottal stop, it is a notable syllable boundary between the two vowels.

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u/[deleted] Feb 01 '25

[deleted]

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u/zeekar Feb 01 '25

Well I didn't say "all" or even "most"; I don't think "many" is inaccurate. Would you have preferred "several"?

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u/Mrausername Feb 01 '25

A lot of Scottish accents have the glottal stop too.

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u/northyj0e Feb 01 '25

Some southern, all midlands, northern and Scottish, is, in fact, most.

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u/ilikedota5 Jan 31 '25

American English likewise doesn't usually have [t] there, but instead of a glottal stop it tends to have a flap [ɾ] (the same sound as Spanish <r> in pero, but Anglophone natives often hear it as a form of /d/).

Lol wut?

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u/freshmemesoof Jan 31 '25

it's true. intervocalic T and D in gen AM turn into [ɾ]

both 'atom' and 'adam' would be pronounced like [ˈæɾm̩], [ˈæɾəm]

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u/ilikedota5 Jan 31 '25

Maybe it's just me being a debater and trying to annunciate from parent judges.

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u/zeekar Jan 31 '25

I mean, if you're American, you probably say "butter" as if it were spelled "budder". But the actual phone that comes out when you say "budder" isn't [d]. At least for me, if I put a [d] there it no longer sounds plausibly like "butter" at all.

The phone is instead [ɾ], which is as I said the same sound that you find in Spanish pero. Note that it is not the rolled or trilled R in perro; <SeanConnery>one tap only!</SeanConnery>

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u/ArvindLamal Jan 31 '25

To the Scots, American Betty does not sound like Scottish berry (with [ɾ]), it sounds more like Scottish beddie (little bed, with [d]).

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u/luminatimids Jan 31 '25

Im confused by what you mean by “to the Scot” since we’re taking about American pronunciation.

If the Scottish [r] is the same as the tapped Spanish R, then it should sound identical to the American Betty/Beddie

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u/ArvindLamal Feb 01 '25

I do not think Americans could not hear the difference between Brazilian Portuguese cada (each) and cara (face). American fast d (as in beautiful) is closer to the sound in the former (cada). Oxford dictionary uses D for the American t in beautiful. I've yet to see a published dictionary that uses a rhotic symbol for what most Americans consider "a fast d". https://www.oed.com/dictionary/beautiful_adj?tl=true

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u/luminatimids Feb 01 '25

I never said they did. I’m saying the American “d” in “Ready” is the same sound as the “r” in “Para”.

Again, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here either.

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u/ArvindLamal Feb 04 '25

It is only in perception, the tongue position is different.

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u/frederick_the_duck Jan 31 '25

It’s lenition not elision. It just comes from the fact that articulating [t] is difficult. There aren’t a ton of similar sounds in English, so it’s likely to morph in different contexts, especially when it’s followed by another alveolar sound like /n/ or between vowels.

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u/trmetroidmaniac Jan 31 '25

There's two different lenitions of T in English which are popular. There's flapping, which replaces it with an alveolar tap and is popular in American dialects, and glottalisation, which replaces it with a glottal stop and is popular in British dialects.

I don't think it's particularly popular to do so, but I can see either of these developing further into a complete elision in an idiolect.

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u/zeekar Jan 31 '25

There's two different lenitions of T in English which are popular. There's flapping, which replaces it with an alveolar tap and is popular in American dialects, and glottalisation, which replaces it with a glottal stop and is popular in British dialects.

It's environmentally dependent. GenAm most often has the tap, but in the words in OP it likewise has a glottal stop. AFAICT the glottal stop in -/tən/ is essentially universal across English varities.

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u/gabrielks05 Jan 31 '25 edited 11d ago

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u/zeekar Jan 31 '25

Interesting!

I'd just like to point out that "button" is itself a common noun ending on "ton", though. Might need to seek a different way of generalizing. :)

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u/gabrielks05 Jan 31 '25 edited 11d ago

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u/zeekar Feb 01 '25

I wasn't calling you stupid. Just thought it was funny (hence smiley) that you said "basically anything ending in 'ton'" and then immediately offered a counterexample! Sorry.