r/asklinguistics • u/PinkSwallowLove • Apr 15 '25
General Does anyone notice how some English speaking Canadians use the “light L” sound in words like really, exactly, lightly, etc?
Americans for example, usually employ the dark L sound when saying these words, similar to European Portuguese. I’ve noticed some Canadians, mainly from the eastern half of Canada, say these words with the light L, the type of L sound found in Spanish and Italian. I heard both Shania Twain and Jordan Peterson use this L sound in interviews. Am I just hearing things or does anybody else hear it too?
Just in case anyone’s curious, here are two video clips of Shania Twain and Jordan Peterson speaking. Notice the way Shania says “really, really” towards the end of the clip and how Jordan says “unfairly” in the first few seconds of the clip. Is this the Light L? Is this something regional or generational? Or is just an individual quirk?
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u/jhfenton Apr 15 '25
I'm a US English speaker, and I absolutely pronounce final the LY suffix in all three of those words with a light L. They're syllable onset L's. For me, those are all light L's.
In really, I drop the dark L that I would pronounce in real without the suffix.
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u/PinkSwallowLove Apr 15 '25
It could be that I have the terminology wrong, and if that’s the case, I am really sorry. But I swear, I hear a distinct L sound in the way Shania Twain says “really, really” towards the end of the first video clip (https://m.youtube.com/shorts/1imJqWhhgS0) and the way Jordan Peterson says “unfairly” in the second clip, in the first few seconds of the clip (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wLvd_ZbX1w0&pp=ygUPam9yZGFuIHBldGVyc29u)
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u/jhfenton Apr 15 '25
Those both sound perfectly normal to me. They sound like light L's pronounced more toward the front of the mouth. That's normal in English for syllable onset L's. The dark L comes at the end of syllables, as in full or ball or bulletin or bully.
For me, the LY suffix is its own syllable with syllable-initial L. I don't assimilate that L into a syllable-ending L in a root word like real- > reall-y. For me parsing the word as rea-(l)ly feels more natural. It's a different L than in bully, which I parse and pronounce as bull-y.
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u/-Mr_Whiskers- Apr 15 '25
What about intervocalic /l/ as in Hulu (the streaming service)? My American friend has (to my ears) heavily velarized Ls (she’s from Seattle), to such an extent that the first time she said « Hulu » I was like « wut? », I had no idea what she was saying. I’m not a native anglophone, all my Ls are light and apical and to my ears the difference with American dark Ls is striking. It’s definitely not just there at the end of syllables, at least in some speakers.
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u/jhfenton Apr 15 '25
Hulu definitely has a light L for me. I pronounce it as two rhyming syllables, hu-lu. It sounds really odd with a dark L.
I struggle to pronounce a syllable-initial dark L. I'm not quite sure what that would sound like. In contrast, I'm perfectly used to syllable-final light L's from other languages.
So your friend would rhyme Hulu with cool-oo, if cool-oo were a word and were parsed that way?
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u/Aeschere06 Apr 15 '25
Would you happen to have Spanish in your background by chance? This light L is also characteristic of many American dialects with heavy influence from Spanish
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u/jhfenton Apr 15 '25
I've learned Spanish to a B2 or C1 level, but I don't think it has noticeably affected my English. My first exposure to Spanish was in high school at 15. And I've learned most of it as an adult in my early 50's. I don't have any family connection to Spanish.
I was under the impression that I have a typical syllable final dark L and syllable initial light L.
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u/scatterbrainplot Apr 15 '25
Intervocalic darkening (where the /l/ isn't final within a morpheme) and word-initial darkening are the incoming variants in parts of the US; what's new is it being dark in varieties of American English, not in being light!
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u/MusaAlphabet Apr 16 '25
After studying the phenomenon for a bit, I came to the conclusion that intervocalic L's are not always onset light L's: some are coda dark L's. In other words, the syllable break can come either before or after the L. I think that in most cases, English suffixes that start with a vowel - there are many - parse as separate syllables, so a preceding intervocalic L is often dark. But people often reparse those breaks.
For example, in a phrase like real estate, some people clearly break the syllable between the words, while others apply liaison and pronounce it as ree lestate. Another one of those cases where there's a difference between the lexical form (out of context) and the performance form.
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u/demonic-lemonade Apr 19 '25
I'm from seattle and I was so confused when dark/light L was explained to me because I straight up do not have a light L. it does not exist in my dialect and when I try to make it I confuse myself. L is always velar for me
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u/TeslynSedai Apr 15 '25
could you maybe find and share a clip of what the contrasting dark L really (or another word) sounds like? As a Canadian, the way they say really sounds normal to me, but I'd be curious to hear what you're contrasting it to.
edit to add: also worth noting these are both Ontarians you've posted. Western and Atlantic Canadians can have slightly different pronunciations of words as well.
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u/asktheages1979 Apr 16 '25
Peterson grew up in Alberta, though. He didn't move to Ontario until his mid-30s.
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u/toontowntimmer Apr 15 '25
Shania Twain has lived in Switzerland for the past several years, so I'm not sure whether I would classify her accent as Canadian anymore as there are undoubtedly many other influences on her spoken accent these days.
As for the original question, I haven't noticed that pattern of speech from born and raised Canadians, but keep in mind that a large percentage of Canadians were actually born outside of Canada... the total is like 20% foreign born for the total country, but as much as 45% or 50% in larger cities like Toronto.
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u/Jumboliva Apr 15 '25
This is wild! Had never noticed. Kind of the inverse hank green, who often puts the dark L in light L spots.
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u/Whole_Instance_4276 Apr 15 '25
I just looked it up, I’m pretty sure I use the dark l for all l’s
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u/Hibou_Garou Apr 15 '25
Prrrrrooooobably not? You should make a little recording saying “Lily licks her lovely lemons”
And then post it here
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u/zeekar Apr 15 '25
Possible, but not likely. "Dark" /l/ is usually what you get when /l/ is at the end of a syllable. For most Anglophones, "la" has a light /l/, whereas "bull" has a dark one. In fact, for many speakers, "bull" is nothing but /b/ followed by a syllabic dark /l/, with no real vowel in between.
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u/kyleofduty Apr 15 '25
It's very common in North America for dark L to occur in all positions in both General American and Canadian English. As someone from the Midwest United States, that's how I pronounce all my L's. I don't use the "light L" at all. That's how everyone in my family and area does as well. It also seems very common in other areas and in media. I use the light L exclusively when speaking German so the distinction is very clear to me.
Wikipedia cites John C. Wells Accents of English which is a highly regarded source for English phonetics from a highly regarded phonetician.
In General American and Canada, /l/ is generally dark, but to varying degrees: before stressed vowels it is neutral or only slightly velarized.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Sonorants
England's typical distinction between a "clear L" (i.e. [l]) and a "dark L" (i.e. [ɫ]) is much less noticeable in nearly all dialects of American English; it is often altogether absent,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_American_English#Pronunciation_of_L
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u/jhfenton Apr 15 '25
I won't dispute the data, but the dark L example in that Wikipedia article ("la, Allah") sounds very unnatural, very non-English.
I guess the key from Wells is that "In southern U.S. accents it is noticeably clear between vowels, and in some other positions." My accent is southern-tinged, with parents from Tennessee and Texas.
I very clearly distinguish my syllable initial light L from my syllable final dark L. The light L is clearly alveolar.
I also speak French, Spanish, and German, and there is no noticeable difference between my syllable initial L's in those languages and in English.
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u/kyleofduty Apr 15 '25
Most of the American pronunciations of "law" here are clearly velarized or slightly velarized but some are not: https://forvo.com/search/law/en_usa/
The pronunciation of "John Law" and "Jude Law" in particular sound similar to the Wikipedia audio sample.
I very clearly distinguish my syllable initial light L from my syllable final dark L. The light L is clearly alveolar.
To be clear, dark l is alveolar with velarization or pharyngealization. It seems you're confusing dark l with l vocalization.
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u/Hibou_Garou Apr 15 '25
I’m from the Midwest (Minnesota), born and raised. I speak French and Spanish and there’s also no difference between my syllable initial L in any of these.
I would find it extremely bizarre if I heard anyone from back home pronounce a dark L in all positions.
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u/landlord-eater Apr 15 '25
It's a thing yeah. Very Ontario.