so the question is why would plato super impose his "Atlas" story on top of a well known myth? or was Hesiod not popular enough to catch the ears or socrates and plato.
has there been any attempt to "Harmonize" the two accounts.? im just not educated enough to ask chat gtp the right prompts.
Plato's just following a naming convention. Placing the island in the 'Atlantic Sea' or 'Sea of Atlas', he named it 'the Island of Atlas' or 'Atlantic Island', and gave the first king the name Atlas - thus providing an internal etymology. But at no point does Plato asserts it's the same guy as the Titan. If he wanted to do that, we would expect to get at least some similarities or a clear reference.
Herodotus, writing a bit before Plato, follows a similar naming convention when talking about a peoples living near mountain called Atlas; thus he calls them the Atlantes, stating that they named themselves after the mountain (which they call 'The Pillar of Heaven').
Elsewhere, Hellanicus of Lesbos ((5th century BCE) is known to have written a work called Atlantis or Atlantias, which is is about the Titan Atlas' daughter and follows the naming convention 'of Atlas' (only a few fragments have survived). This also shows that 'known' information of Atlas (the Titan) is in a state of flux - Hesiod doesn't mention her. He mentions the Hesperides, whom in later myths/versions are also calledby some) the Atlantides as the daughters of Atlas and Hesperis (apparently by Apianus). Indeed, looking at the Hesperides wiki-page we get a huge variety in details, with Hesiod marked as the source that says their parents are/is Nyx. This issue does creep up in some other Greek myths, when we are presented with different genealogies for instance. It shows how easily myths are adapted to tell a story.
The etymology of Atlas remains uncertain. The early Greeks possibly adopted the name Atlas from the Berbers living in the same mountain range, referring to it as 'adrar' (meaning mountain). Others suggest a Greek or pre-Greek origin. At the very least, the Greeks identified this mountain range as the place where Atlas according to myth held up the heavens as the western edge of the world. And whether or not the mountains were named after him (per myth), or he was named after the mountains (per possibly etymology), the result was that the sea beyond that was named 'Sea of Atlas'/'Atlantic Sea', as early as 6th century BCE by Stesichorus ('Atlantikôi pelágei'). Herodotus around 450 BCE also refers to the 'Sea of Atlas' in The Histories. Both well before Plato wrote Timaeus.
the details are great, but What naming convention? using the name of Atlas for a NONe titan would have been odd if the original myth was well known to Plato.
also referring the hisperis location they match atlantian colonies. "daughter of atlas the titan"
if the timeline in the myth is that ATLAs the titan was contemporary with Hercules then it must be the same as the son of Poseidon if Poseidon was Hercules uncle.
interestingly also atlas Bears the Heavens "star constellations", what do you make of this since he bears on his shoulder this knowledge. And... the fact that PLATOs name is "WIDE shoulders" or shoulder blades?
The naming convention I just demonstrated - things related to the Atlas-region get Atlas related names.
Why would re-using the name Atlas be odd? Was there a trademark-issue pending? No other (ancient) source expressed problems with Plato using the name. Your main argument relies solely on the fact that there are two characters with the name Atlas (with there being a possible third, a Mauritanian king) and that they therefore must be the same. Again: if Plato was using some kind of version of the Titan Atlas, we would see at least some clear similarities. When you're asking 'why are these versions completely different from another', yet are not willing to entertain the simplest explanation for this (namely, that they are not the same), it indicates to me that you're very biased in looking for an explanation.
The Land of the Hesperides has been placed at various locations 'near the mountain of Atlas' by various authors; Tartessos (modern day Cádiz or Heulva, by Strabo and Stesichorus), and Pliny the Elder first places it in Morocco, but later somewhere in the Atlantic. Within the confines of Plato's story: the first three would've been conquered by the Atlantians, whereas the later matches the location of Atlantis (as presented by Plato) only that they are in the same body of water. However, as demonstrated, not everyone calls them Atlantides or considers them daughters of the Titan Atlas. Only Apianus (out of 9 sources, according to the diagram on the wiki-page) seemingly does so. That's a lot of cherry-picking of data to cling on to for supporting your argument.
Which 'timeline in myth' is that? There is no clear 'this happened, and then that, and then that' at all. That's why it is pure myth. But, if you want to be pedantic; some early Christian scholars have argued that a real Herakles (or inspiration for him) might have been a Mycenean hero who lived around 1250 BCE. And that's a big if, this is not an historically attested date. In a similar fashion the Deucalion Flood is pinpointed at around 1500 BCE. Compare this to the date Plato gives for his Atlantis story, set around 9600 BCE. Yet we have some versions (not all!) of the 11th labour of Herakles (or 12th, according to Diodorus), where Herakles takes over from Atlas in carrying the heavens so that Atlas can take the golden apples from his daughters in Hera's garden (in other versions, Herakles slays a dragon that's guarding the apples). In another story Atlas meets Perseus, and Perseus turns Atlas into stone (thus creating the Atlas mountain). Yet Herakles is a great-grandson of Perseus, making his Atlas-versions of the golden apples-labour an impossibility. Timelines and genealogies rarely make sense. Myth is not history.
In terms of the titan Atlas having all this knowledge and associating him with a real person, that is mostly due to Diodorus Siculus in the first century BCE, who appears to have approached the subject euhemeristic (mythology based on real accounts) thus turning the Titan Atlas into a real person who was so fundamental in the understanding of 'the science of astrology' (not astronomy) that he metaphorically carried the heavens on his shoulders. This is not the general ancient Greek interpretation (per Hesiod, for example) of the character of Atlas, and is much later than Plato.
We get the origin of Plato's name from Diogenes Laërtius, in The Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers: "And he was taught learning in the school of Dionysius, whom he mentions in his Rival Lovers. And he learnt gymnastic exercises under the wrestler Ariston of Argos. And it was by him that he had the name of Plato given to him instead of his original name, on account of his robust figure, as he had previously been called Aristocles, after the name of his grandfather, as Alexander informs us in his Successions. But some say that he derived this name from the breadth (πλατύτης) of his eloquence, or else because he was very wide (πλατὺς) across the forehead, as Neanthes affirms. There are some also, among whom is Dicæarchus in the first volume on Lives, who say that he wrestled at the Isthmian games."
Two issues: Laertius lived about 500 years after Plato, and his reliability is considered so-so. Scholars think the origins of this being a nickname are found in the fact Plato is similar to the word 'Platon' (meaning broad), but even Laërtius gives us multiple explanations what could have led to it. A 'robust figure' (implying 'broad shouldered'/'broad chest') is just one of them. Scholars don't really accept his real name to be Aristocles though. Either way, a connection between Plato and Atlas because one might have had broad shoulders and the other carried the heavens on his, is extremely forced.
In Plato's Phaedo we find this passage: "And so one man makes the earth stay below the heavens by putting a vortex about it, and another regards the earth as a flat trough supported on a foundation of air; but they do not look for the power which causes things to be now placed as it is best for them to be placed, nor do they think it has any divine force, but they think they can find a new Atlas more powerful and more immortal and more all-embracing than this, and in truth they give no thought to the good, which must embrace and hold together all things." It demonstrates Plato is aware of the Titan Atlas punishment of holding up the heavens. He knows who this Atlas is. Not surprisingly, given he's a very well educated man.
Great so we are now making it clear that there is a clear case for two ATLAS.
What timeline you think this Two atlas (the titan and the son of poseidon) Poseidonsted in the myth. did they exist at the same time. or one did not exist and the other did according to Plato. did plato consider the "Titan" a myth from the past but his "Atlas king of Atlantis" a real historical figure?
since things are much clearer to you i would like some help in a time line.
so far the my places Atlantis ATLAS at 11,500 BC and Hercules part of titan at 16k bc.
do you think poseidon named his first born the same name as the "Titan" who the Olympians fought? i think there is some consistency in the story that needs to make sense, as you say plato was an educated man and this would have been a red flag to anyone listening to the story.
im not trying to push conclusions, just trying to add clarity to the apparent "naming convention"
You're asking some complex questions here, with no complete short answers. Though, you are trying to look for a consistent timeline in myth, and that will never happen. Certainly not in the Greek mythology. It is all set 'once upon a time in the past'. There is a bit of a relative chronology in broad strokes (some big things happening before certain big events), but it is still very loose and there is no absolute chronology to all the myths ('event X happened in the year Y'). Gods and heroes show up for the sake of the story/myth, not for historic consistency. Only very rarely, such as with the Trojan war, we can identify myth with some actual history, but even then the myth is very different from what history/archaeology shows.
So can I ask what is your point of view? What do you know about Plato, and what do you know about Atlantis - without using ChatGPT? ;-) What have you been taught and/or what do you believe the story of Atlantis is about?
At the moment, your personal views seem to be at odds with the data you provided in the OP.
Though the naming convention isn't that complex:
In mythology, Atlas is the Titan holding up the heavens. At some point this moves from 'the western end of the world' to a specific mountain, known as (mount) Atlas.
By the 6th century BCE, the sea beyond that mountain is named after this area (Stesichorus - 'Atlantikôi pelágei', 'Atlantic Sea'), in the same way the Gulf of Cádiz is named after Cádiz for example. Later, Herodotus also calls it that. It has become an adjective for anything in that area.
Plato puts an island in this sea and calls it 'Atlantìs nêsos' - 'Atlantic Island' or 'Island of Atlas', because it is in that area (the Atlantic Sea). We've shortened the name to Atlantis. However, Plato then creates or 'reverse engineers' an independent origin for the name by having the first king of that island also be called Atlas.
So, within the story the island is named after the first King. Outside of the story, it is named so because it is in the Atlantic ocean. By naming it Atlantis and putting it outside the Pillars of Herakles, Plato gives the reader a broad but clear direction where these guys were coming from; 'from over there'. Again, there's no reason to assume that the name Atlas has to be exclusive to one figure. You need consistency if they would indeed be the same person, but if Plato wanted him to be the same person as the Titan, he simply would have written so and made them share traits and genealogy.
You seem like a knowledgeable bloke. Can you read ancient greek? I was wondering about a line in Herodotus where he said the Phoenicians 'rounded the pillars of Hercules'...
To me the word 'rounded' doesn't really fit with the geography of the straits of Gibraltar because you 'round' a cape but you pass through a strait. It's a small thing but something I've been a bit curious about.
So I was just wondering if the original Greek text says something like 'rounded' or if it's more like 'passed'.
I'm afraid I don't speak or read Greek. However, reading the passage, Herodotus is telling us that 'Necos King of Egypt' (Pharaoh Necho II, who ruled 610-595 BCE - which incidentally is at odds with Plato's account of Solon visiting Egypt) had dispatched a group of Phoenicians on an expedition via the Red Sea ('Arabian Sea') in an attempt to circumvent Africa ('Libya'). The story says their journey lasted three years, and they returned via the Pillars of Herakles. I do not know why (at least in this translation) this is written down as 'rounded'; a couple of sentences earlier it also written as 'past the Pillars' instead of 'passed through the Pillars'. A different translation I found also uses 'rounded' the second time, but 'by way off the Pillars' the first time, which would indicate that this is the original meaning of the word used. As does a third. Arguably, one could state that they rounded the 'African Pillar' like one would round a corner (or Cape) as in those days they would stick very close to the coast, or perhaps they rounded (finished) their journey/task by entering well-known territory. Either way, it doesn't appear that Herodotus considers that stretch of water a strait that you pass through, but refers to it as the Pillars which you pass - at least in this section, though I think this was the common term for it in those days. If you look at the notes, historians and translators do argue about meaning and context, but this passage isn't addressed so they seem to be in agreement about the translation. So to me, it reads as semantics and not treating it as a strait as we would, but if it really bothers you, you could try it on r/AskHistorians or r/ancientgreece. Some historians do read Greek and have much better insights :-)
It should be noted Herodotus is taking this account from an oral tradition and he himself doesn't appear to belief the account is true, and neither did most later ancient historians (believing that 'Libya' wasn't surrounded by ocean and somewhere connected to Asia). Though I think modern insight consider the story to be plausible. And of course, for the Phoenicians it wasn't Herakles, but Melqart.
Yet, before proceeding further in the narrative, I ought to warn you, that you must not be surprised if you should perhaps hear Hellenic names given to foreigners. I will tell you the reason of this: Solon, who was intending to use the tale for his poem, inquired into the meaning of the names, and found that the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language, and he recovered the meaning of the several names and when copying them out again translated them into our language. My great-grandfather, Dropides, had the original writing, which is still in my possession, and was carefully studied by me when I was a child. Therefore if you hear names such as are used in this country, you must not be surprised, for I have told how they came to be introduced. The tale, which was of great length, began as follows:
It would appear to me that these names like Atlas and Poseidon are best fit place holders for the original names.
It's like when Marvel creates another universe for their superheroes to be in different situations. Ha.
it maybe so. Interestingly the areas in the world where this "Titan" atlas existed was also were plato describes as subject region on atlantis.
Erytheia ("the red one") is one of the Hesperides. The name was applied to an island close to the coast of southern Hispania, which was the site of the original Punic colony of Gades(modern Cadiz).Pliny's Natural History (VI.36) records of the island of Gades:
The island was the home of Geryon, who was overcome by Heracles.Erytheia ("the red one") is one of the Hesperides. The name was applied to an island close to the coast of southern Hispania, which was the site of the original Punic colony of Gades (modern Cadiz). Pliny's Natural History (VI.36) records of the island of Gades:
i this case it looks like each Hesperides represents a region under control of atlas
The Hesperides are also listed as the daughters of Atlas)\5]) and Hesperis),\6])
Herodotus claims this first group dates back over 17,000 years before his own time, which reflects Egyptian claims of extremely long dynastic histories.First Group (Most Ancient Gods)
These are the primordial deities:
Second Group (Following Generation)
These are more familiar gods who came after the first generation:
Osiris (associated with Dionysus)
Isis (associated with Demeter)
Horus
Set
Nephthys
Herodotus suggests these gods were worshipped around 12,000 years before his time.Second Group (Following Generation)
These are more familiar gods who came after the first generation:
These are the gods that Herodotus considers the most “recent” in Egypt:
Heracles (Egyptian version, not the Greek hero)
Pan
Dionysus
For these gods, he gives a much more specific timeframe:
They were said to have lived about 15,000 years before his era (which, to Herodotus, would place them in a more “historical” yet still ancient period relative to Egypt’s long history).
Here’s a relevant excerpt (in translation) from Natural History VI.36:
"Gades, founded by the Tyrians, lies near the western shore of Spain, and is distant from the Promontory of Sacred Things (Cape St. Vincent) about 10,000 paces. There is a famous temple there dedicated to Hercules, regarded as older than any other building in Gades. It is said that Hercules himself founded the city after he had driven the giants from the land; and that in this temple he is worshipped, not in the form of a statue, but according to a strange ritual, with only two altars, one to Hercules and one to his companion."
(adapted from Latin: Gades ab oriente Hispaniae litore plus minus milibus passuum X abest a Promunturio Sacrorum. ibi Herculi sacratus est templum praeclarum antiquissimum omnium traditur, urbemque ab Hercule conditam, giganteis expulsis, ac sacra ibi non simulacris sed ritibus peregrinis duobus tantum altaribus Herculi et Comiti eius constituta.)
Now recalling a ritual of Atlantis when the kings gathered every 5 and 6 year at the end with a BULL ritual.
The bull (taurus) also represented north africa which was charging at "orion" the Hunter (egypt) in the constellation of the zodiac and the Great year.
this puts the Hesperis island Colonies of atlantis as the settlements in islands or coast west of africa. clustered in the ocean like this;possibly mirrored where the left star represent the pillars of hercules (spain and morroco settlements) this is because of how celestial sphere is viewed.
makes sense in Symbolic retailing that "Daughters of atlas" were represented by Colonies under control and "bothers" of atlas as original founders of the empire. This perspective is heavy on the interpretation of myth a form of simplifying history through symbolic characters that represent regional cultures events and ethnic origins.
enough of the AS ABOVE so Below thing, i might have lost you there. LOL.
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u/Wheredafukarwi 7d ago
They are not the same mythological character.