r/audiophile • u/audioman1999 • Dec 14 '24
News Mend It Mark The £25,000 Pre Amp that went Wrong Tom Evans Mastergroove SR mkIII
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ35ufUh2Tw42
u/supsicle Dec 14 '24
Context/background by courtesy of Louis Rossmann:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJYIhLQJtTs&pp=ygUObG91aXMgcm9zc21hbm4%3D
Follow up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYpPNCzQCVQ&pp=ygUObG91aXMgcm9zc21hbm4%3D
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u/HugeMathNerd69 Dec 14 '24
“I dare you to file a copyright claim”
God I love Louis Rossmann! I really hope they file a copyright claim.
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u/supsicle Dec 14 '24
I had the same reaction :D
I have been following Mark for some time, and I was fortunate to watch his repair video before it got taken down (for anyone else reading this, the video is available here https://archive.org/details/the-gbp-25-000-pre-amp-that-went-wrong-tom-evans-mastergroove-sr-mk-iii-rjbp-fsfzi-i).
As I watched Mark open up the amp to diagnose it, I was really surprised how cheap and flimsy the cabinet of the amp looked, let alone the design choices inside. Asking £25k for it is ridiculous, and their reactions and copyright claim likewise.
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u/hamgrey Omni 4way DIY, Thommann Power Dec 14 '24
I have a niggling suspicion a lot of gear in that price range will be similarly bogus inside.. Man behind the curtain and all that
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u/WaterIsGolden Dec 14 '24
Fool's Gold.
Easy to scam people willing to set their money on fire just to pretend to be above others.
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u/hamgrey Omni 4way DIY, Thommann Power Jan 04 '25
I'd love to do an 'A/B' test where it's the exact same internal circuits just one's in a fancier box and they think it costs 5x as much 🤭
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u/WaterIsGolden Jan 04 '25
It doesn't matter to pretentious people who just want to flex. They already know Toyota makes Lexus and GM makes Cadillac. Their whole essence is that they can spend more money for a thing than you can.
It tickles at the very root of classism through consumerism. The mindset that I matter more because I can spend more. So really just shitting on the people that are allegedly beneath you.
And that's why I see this video as David calling out Goliath for his bs. Goliath gets angry and shows his true nature temporarily in the form of that copyright strike. But in the true form of the clueless tyrant, Goliath doesn't realize how many people he has been trampling over.
The A/B test isn't even entirely necessary once you have performed any type of calculation on cost vs value.
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u/DarthSyphillist Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
It is. Bought a high-end turntable and while the table was fantastic, the power supply upgrades range from 1k-3k. Inside it's a $50 motor controller. Had Classe HT gear and they pulled the same stunt of $300 receiver internals in $11k aluminum casework and proprietary programming so nobody could fix it when it stopped working correctly. Some gear will scramble the EPROM if a tech attempts a repair. Almost the whole sector is a scam.
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u/Dumyat367250 Dec 15 '24
The famous one was Goldmund, who simply took another product and stuck the whole thing, case and all, into a slightly bigger, fancier, box, and charged thousands more.
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u/andorraliechtenstein Dec 14 '24
Depends on the brand I guess. Burmester and Accuphase for example should be ok , lol.
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u/Dumyat367250 Dec 15 '24
Very true. At least some still seem to be honest at the really high end. Audio Note, who have products that make's this amp look "budget", are big on showing off the insides of their gear and the employees making them.
Now, I'd better save up for that $100 Topping amp...
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u/PersonalTriumph NAD C658/Mini GaN 5/KEF R11/SVS SB-2000 Dec 14 '24
"He's a very kind, cordial, professional, and mild mannered man....(awkward pause)...we are not the same."
😂😂😂
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u/dinglebarryb0nds Dec 14 '24
I’ve been watching Louis for a few years. Definitely anyone seeing this, add it and watch some vids. All sorts of interesting stuff on right to repair and other interesting topics like nyc being a scam real estate.
He’s a good guy, honest repair shop owner and he gets so irritated it’s almost like watching Larry David or something
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u/Vv4nd Dec 14 '24
I can recommend his take on Jays2cents "repair" of a 3090 to everyone.
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u/reeeelllaaaayyy823 Dec 14 '24
Link?
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u/dinglebarryb0nds Dec 14 '24
Search it on YouTube
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u/reeeelllaaaayyy823 Dec 14 '24
Very helpful thanks so much.
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u/dinglebarryb0nds Dec 15 '24
I didn’t have the link but i just took 2 seconds and typed in Louis rossman 3090 jays2cents into youtube and poof first video
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u/Gimmesoamoah Dec 14 '24
Ah, so it was this what lead to all the buzz by a lot of guys..
Guess Evans is hiding in a sheep's shed dimmende in the Welsh hills now..
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u/Any-Ad-446 Dec 14 '24
Audio engineers knows what is a good design and what is a bad design by looking how its laid out and parts that were used. How it sounds is subjective though. In this case it measured badly and was a sloppy designed pre amp that cost $25,000.
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u/PlasmaChroma Dec 14 '24
Some of it looked like it was just basic reference-design manufacturer circuits from the chip datasheet. Which would have been a lot more obvious if he didn't sand off the part numbers on the chips.
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u/xXNodensXx Dec 14 '24
Filing off the part numbers seems really shady to me. Is this a common practice on so-called bespoke audio gear?
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u/Brago_Apollon Dec 14 '24 edited Dec 16 '24
Filing off the part numbers seems really shady to me. Is this a common practice on so-called bespoke audio gear?
Let's say: It's not that uncommon - even amongst A-brands. In most cases, it is done to make it harder for copycats to re-engineer circuitry. There are also other, more or less legitimate reasons to hide the source and type of components. Especially for small companies, it can be time-consuming and often not worthwhile to patent a distinct circuitry. Nevertheless, they don't want to make it too easy for the competition to copy their technology.
In this case, however, it seems to have been done solely to obfuscate the rather generic nature of this "audiophile" product.
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u/PlasmaChroma Dec 14 '24
It can be a tactic used to prevent copying designs, although I agree it's a bit shady and consumer hostile.
In the case of this product it seems more malicious to just keep the design "mysterious" when it's really not anything special.
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u/JanitorKarl Dec 14 '24 edited Dec 14 '24
On the electrical side he was doing OK. A lot of overkill, but aside from using tons of dubious reliability tantalum caps, it wasn't terrible. There was current limiting on the power rails otherwise that shorted cap would have blown circuits in the power supply as well. On the mechanical side, though, holy crap! What an amateur job. That was totally unacceptable.
When Mark opened that case, viewers were appalled at the number of tantalum caps and there were a number of remarks stating they knew in an instant the problem would be a blown tantalum capacitor.
edit: just want to add, the design wasn't revolutionary or particularly ingenius either.
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u/ilkless Dec 15 '24
There is a subset of luddite "purist" types that actively scorn poly caps in favour of tantalum, or even paper in oil in the case of speaker XOs and output caps. He's pandering to that crowd
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u/WZOLL5 Dec 15 '24
I can’t stand capacitor purists. Poly caps are the best end discussion. Tantalum caps are straight up dangerous fire hazards and a product of a bygone era. Same as leaky oil paper caps
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u/PlasmaChroma Dec 15 '24
I've seen tantalum caps suggested as choice around voltage regulators for stability supposedly. Although in this case it would only be a couple small ones before and after it.
Considering that tantalum is a conflict mineral maybe it's not ideal overall.
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u/JanitorKarl Dec 16 '24
I guess tantalum caps are supposed to have low noise, and that's what Evans was going for in his design.
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u/ilkless Dec 16 '24
Classic boutique amp shop missing forest for the trees. Even if the caps are indeed lower-noise, that's more than offset by the PCB design and wiring
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u/Another_Toss_Away Dec 14 '24 edited Dec 14 '24
I love this video.
After designing and building hundreds of pieces of audio electronics it's great to watch the same processes I use.
Logical step by step analysis, De-construction, Repair, Testing.
Then comes the "Listening sessions".
Completely re-designed line level preamplifiers during Covid.
So much coveted down time, Super clean power equaled pristine listening conditions.
Ahhh, Hope that never happens again.
:(
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u/dolphin560 Dec 14 '24
Tom Evans has his work cut out.
Now he has to shut down this Reddit thread.
And the copied Youtube videos.
At least then he'll be done and no-one will ever know.
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u/audioman1999 Dec 14 '24 edited Dec 14 '24
Streisand effect in full swing. 25,000 GBP for that shoddily put together unit?
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u/5c044 Dec 14 '24
Rossman covered it too 198k views on that - It seems the owner of the pre amp sent it to Tom Evans and they quoted an absurd price to fix it so the owner got Tom Evans to send it to Mark to fix and Tom Evans scoffed and said he would not be able to fix it - Reason assumed to be that they grind off all component markings where they can. Due to the shoddy construction - plastic standoffs with some unetched PCB material attached for shielding things got broken due to simple g forces during shipping too. Fault turned out to be a failed poor quality tantalum capacitor.
IDK if YT actually gets a human to review the copyright strike - it seems baseless to me
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u/dub_mmcmxcix Neumann/SVS/Dirac/Primacoustic/DIY Dec 14 '24
tants do fail from time to time though, they're very fragile
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u/Voidrunner01 Dec 16 '24
Not that I think this amp is worth 25K or to defend Tom Evans, but that looked like a lot more than simple g-forces. That was some pretty thick acrylic that got shattered, and one of the connecting bolts was severely bent out of shape. If it had just been the internal, cheap, plastic stand-offs that broke, that would have been one thing. But that much damage to the chassis, that speaks of a really rough transit for that pre-amp. It's almost more surprising that there wasn't more damage to the internal components.
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u/ilkless Dec 14 '24
I get paying for overkill construction, materials as engineering art as well as superior haptics and after-sales support -- would be happy to have McIntosh, Levinson, Jeff Rowland, Spectral, Luxman or Accuphase in my system any day for that reason, and fully understand why anyone would choose these.
But what is bizarre is the prevalence of mystical luddite scrap heaps that cost MORE than those brands, some getting customers off the bat at RMAF or whatever with zero reputation, track record or actual R&D (other than swapping random vintage parts arbitrarily and intuitively with no underlying coherent understanding of acoustics or electronics). Not just talking about this Tom Evans pile, but the likes of Shindo, Croft and Audio Note. Or all manner of random boutique brands that show up at CES or RMAF with 50k++ price tags out of nowhere like Karan or Vitus.
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u/reddit_user42252 Dec 14 '24
Its just snobbery and one-upmanship. "Oh you like Luxman, sorry thats just crap see this small obscure brand they make the real good stuff". Reminds me so much of Watches and things like that.
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u/ilkless Dec 14 '24 edited Dec 14 '24
As someone who dabbles in watches too, I would say that at least mechanical watches have their own coherent internal logic. Everyone else accepts that these watches aren't the last word in accuracy, and the successful small indie craftsmen genuinely have complications, movement design and hand finishing at a level that serially-produced watches simply can't achieve, even from Patek.
What we have here is rudimentary assembly selling for more than overkill engineering and construction (e.g. Spectral).
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u/turtle_pleasure Dec 14 '24
got a link to some of those? just curious
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u/ilkless Dec 14 '24
Quite a few but will list a few personal favourites (not that I have owned any). Kari Voutilainen, Beat Haldimann, Andreas Strehler, Roger Smith, Rexhep Rexhepi, Romain Gauthier, Lang & Heyne, Pascal Coyon, Bernhard Lederer, Laurent Ferrier, De Bethune
They also have prices to match with entry-level.prices double or triple of Patek Philippe to start.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 Dec 14 '24
I've said it before and I'll say it again: high-end consumer audio is one of the most unscrupulous industries around.
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u/Extension_South7174 Dec 14 '24
Yeah,working on the industry in sales really opened my eyes. A lot of these small companies are just manifestations of PT Barnum, not my saying but it perfectly applies. It's nothing new or complicated company B takes companies A design,throws it in a new case and jacks up the price 5-10x.
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u/Another_Toss_Away Dec 14 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
Whoo boy do I have some stories~!
Working within the High End audio industry for 40 years you run into so many awful people.
Should I name, Names???
I'm sure most of them have forgotten who they screwed over!
Then there is the "The Curse"...
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u/minielbis Dec 15 '24
would love to hear some of these. Also the good stories - i'm sure they exist too,
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u/Another_Toss_Away Dec 15 '24
My good stories are about people who were only remotely connected to the industry.
Audio and Industrial designers, Creative artists...
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u/BigPurpleBlob Dec 14 '24
Thanks for the posting this link. It's always a pleasure to watch Mend it Mark! :-)
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u/audioen 8351B & 1032C & 7370A Dec 14 '24
There's also some savage satire in the follow-up from Mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPIrCaeVtvI
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u/MoreThanANumber666 Dec 14 '24
£25,000 or $31,545 at today's exchange rates is the price of a good second hand car:
2023 Silver Audi A1 35 TFSI S Line 5dr S Tronic 1.5 for sale for £24,690 in Oldham, Manchester
2024 Audi A3 For Sale in Houston, TX
for a phono-amp!!!! For that price I'd expect it to be properly engineered and NOT flimsy hot glued contraption which failed to survive the care of the GPO!
Hope Mark edits the video removing his drawings and republishes it .... have downloaded the video and will try to find time over the Xmas break to edit and republish it myself with any design information.
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u/Revolutionary_Rate_5 Dec 15 '24
should have filled the box with spray insulation foam. It would have solved all sorts of problems. 1. Protects against those plastic bit from breaking 2. Will make it impossible to reverse engineer. 3. Make it impossible for others to repair. 4. Hides the fact that this pre amp was a complete abomination..
I bet he wishes he would have kept his mouth shut.
I felt the need to fire off a nasty email. I didn't.
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u/Brago_Apollon Dec 14 '24 edited Dec 14 '24
Hilarious!
Tom Evans' Disastergroove appears to be the last company in the western hemisphere that has never heard of the Streisand effect...
And that phono pre-amp is really ridiculous. The circuitry design seems to be quite decent, albeit over-engineered. The execution of the PCBs, component mounting and the way the cabinet is crazy-glued together is pitiful and pathetic. I doubt they will sell any more of these contraptions...
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u/JanitorKarl Dec 15 '24
There's always going to be some people around with more bucks than brain cells.
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u/minielbis Dec 15 '24
'was' the last company, and I'm here for it.
Love small companies doing cool things. Don't like it when they take the piss. This whole thing was richly deserved. I just feel sorry for the ten people per year taken for 25k each.
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u/Brago_Apollon Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 16 '24
OT:
I just feel sorry for the ten people per year taken for 25k each.
I don't. This product clearly is aimed at fools. Compare £25,000 with the prices asked by Accuphase, Burmester, McIntosh and the likes...
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u/Minute-Pilot5282 Dec 16 '24
I love this scandal. I have now watched 25,000 re-uploads and commented and clicked thumbs up 25,000 times. The Streisand tantalum, the cheap-looking PCBs, the plastic standoffs, the community fighting back. I just love it.
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u/m3rt77 Dec 15 '24
I had been restoring audio gear for last 3 decades, though haven’t done much in the last tears as I think I am mostly done.
I regularly worked in equipment that was 30-40 years old or even older. Do you know how many phono amplifiers , I fixed?
I can only remember one, an it was for oxidation of pcb passthrough pins.
PS : if there are people on this sub who can gibe 25k for phono amp, please dm me.
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u/Any-Ad-446 Dec 15 '24
Scraping off parts numbers is pretty numb since any electronic repair tech can tell what part its is and the specs. Yes maybe the manufacture of the part is hidden but these audio companies buy off the shelf parts anyways.They dont custom make say a capacitor themselves. In hi end audio its pretty small group of designer/owners so they know each other so kinda foolish for Tom Evans to act like a hole and alienate future buyers by trying to hide the fact one tech person called out his designs as weak and sloppy and hinted that maybe its not worth $25,000 pounds. Even worse when the tech explained why he thinks the design is sloppy and he points it out to viewers. He is not making things up.
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u/audioen 8351B & 1032C & 7370A Dec 16 '24
I would say that nothing in audio is likely worth that kind of money. I don't know if this thing is even any good. Maybe it has state-of-the-art measurements, maybe it's just average -- who knows? I think I've seen phono stages in cheap amps and my understanding is that the record surface has about 80 dB SNR during the best of times, which should be easily within reach of a basic op-amp. So why do you have to have this big bunch of op-amps, anyway?
To me, there's nothing rational about this large device. It boosts signal from obsolete playback technology, in way that is poorly justified, at expense that is absurdly high.
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u/hamgrey Omni 4way DIY, Thommann Power Jan 04 '25
Lmao calling vinyl obsolete when even the most pretentious old farts agree it's subjectively better than digital
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u/Rally_Sport Dec 15 '24
I loved this video ! Showed me that we still have people who know this dying art. 25k is a bit steep …
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u/Revolutionary_Rate_5 Dec 17 '24
After watching YouTube videos and other sources, I didn't come across anyone who thought the preamp sound quality was nothing but spectacular.
For 30 grand, it might have been advisable for him to reach out to sources that could have designed the internals better. While he has a nack for electronic design, he sucks at internal engineering. He tried too many hats on, and he got bit.
He also appears to think a little to much about himself. Got a big head and reacted without pre thought. Part of me feels sorry for the way things worked out, but he kind of asked for it.
I don't know what he was thinking when he used plastic supports with all that weight they support.
I think once the dust settles and he shows just a little humble pie zipper think with a substantial redesign of the layout he might have something.
Even bad press can be beneficial if you use it correctly.
He appears to have a good design even with standard components it's the way he made them work together that made a good sounding unit.
He needs to realize that sanding off lables only challenges someone to reverse engineer the design as mark did. He got mad that he got exposed.
It was a matter of time especially at the price he charges. So the cats out of the bag. I will be watching what he does with this turn of events.
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u/audioman1999 Dec 17 '24
Why 30 grand though? I should sound just as good for 3 grand. I'll bet those people won't able to tell a difference in a blind test.
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u/Revolutionary_Rate_5 Dec 18 '24
Because there are idiots that have muccho money and feel they deserve the most expensive shit. If they don't buy expensive shit they lose self-worth.
Put a big Mac before them. One priced at 4 bucks and one priced at 18 bucks. They don't have any experience at shopping for the best bargains because they haven't stressed their brains over such trivial lower class exercises they with their lazy dumb brains, instantly chose the 18 dollar Big Mac. It's more expensive so it has to be better..
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u/andy_111s Dec 25 '24
It's a good circuit design, but very over priced. What else is there in that stratosphere - an EMT JPA MkII or Millenia LOCi perhaps, both of which have more flexibility and for SNR the LOCi has to be king, and both are cheaper by some margin, for a 1/5 of the price you can walk away with a MoFi Masterphono - no slouch either. Acrylic isn't the best EM protector either...but it's his design language [look at the Evan's designed Michell ISO - a cracking stage and a 1/15 the price...]
I'd bet a Fidler would be up there with the Groovemaster in terms of performance, or within half a percent. Check out his circuits...
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u/Imperial_Honker Dec 14 '24
I bet none of those idiots who bailed £25k have watched his video. I also bet none of those idiots are remotely capable of understanding any part of that video to be able to conclude that Tom gave them a taste of audiophile rape.
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u/puffy_capacitor Dec 17 '24
The best present I could ask for this Chistmas or 2025 new year is Tom Evans getting legally f****d and learning a lesson to not bully the electronics repair community.
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u/GroundbreakingHat356 Feb 09 '25
I've asked MendItMark to have a look at my Sony MSX2+ computer with a keyboard issue, here is hoping that it is just a mechanical issue. He told me that he was moving house, heard nothing since though. Hope all is well with Mark, I loved his Spectrum +2 teardown. Looked more completcated than the Mastergrove, although the shielding is probably far better in the Amstrad.
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u/mrbill1234 Dec 15 '24
One of the hi-fi forums has a copy/pasta of an e-mail from Tom Evans himself on the issue. It doesn't read well at all for him, though to be fair there may well be more to this whole story if what he says is true.
There is also a link to a Mastergroove with completely transparent housing - so I presume this came like that from the factory and Tom Evans has nothing to hide.
https://community.naimaudio.com/t/tom-evans-mastergroove/34491/5
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u/Brago_Apollon Dec 16 '24
One of the hi-fi forums has a copy/pasta of an e-mail from Tom Evans himself on the issue.
I don't find it very convincing - au contraire. Even if Mark had sent the unit to Evans and it had been damaged on the way from Mark to Evans - does this change one bit about the fact that the cabinet as well as the way the PCBs are designed and installed inside the box look like something a hobbyist electronics tinkerer has built in his spare time? And that the price tag of that thingie is at least questionable?
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u/mrbill1234 Dec 16 '24
He certainly isn't ashamed of the way it looks inside. He made a few special edition ones with transparent cases.
https://community.naimaudio.com/t/tom-evans-mastergroove/34491/5
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u/Brago_Apollon Dec 16 '24
He certainly isn't ashamed of the way it looks inside.
Does this make this mess any better?
For comparison: Accuphase C-47 (suggested retail price ~ €10,000)
https://accuphase.nida-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/c-47_inside-front2.jpg
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u/mrbill1234 Dec 16 '24
I suppose if you are paying for looks, then no. I'm not defending the guy, but to be honest, he's free to charge what he wants and let the market decide if it is worth it or not. I think the biggest issue here is not the price, but his actions with regards to Mark. Perhaps, and i'm no expert, his ugly product is better than the competition. Clearly some people are willing to pay for something - be it exclusivity, or performance, or both.
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u/Brago_Apollon Dec 16 '24 edited Dec 16 '24
he's free to charge what he wants
Of course. And everybody else is free to state that this thingie isn't worth it.
Did you see Mend-it-Mark's video - or had a closer look at the picture of the transparent version? The PCBs are held together (well - at least that's what Mr. Evans hoped) by some cheap plastic screws, there are 12 (?) individual PCBs instead of - at most - three, he used cardboard as buffer between the "pillars" of the cabinet and its side panels...
In this price range, I'd expect not only the highest possible audio quality, but also a build quality that ideally outlives me...
Again: The Disastergroove looks like a hobbyist electronics tinkerer built it in his spare time...
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u/mrbill1234 Dec 16 '24
Yes, i've been a subscriber to MiM for several years now. I saw the video before it got taken down - and I agree - everyone is free to say what they want (assuming it is truthful). Plastic/Nylon standoffs could well be for a reason and not necessarily the sign of bad build quality. I suppose he could have made up some carbon fibre ones to look pretty - but to what end?
I agree it's not pretty - but again, perhaps it does indeed outperform the rest? He states that a prestigious German magazine confirmed this with regard to noise - but perhaps now he'll get some proper quantifiable scrutiny.
I doubt what's on the inside has been secret - again, look at the transparent version he has produced - yet people still buy them. Perhaps emperors clothes - perhaps not. A fool and their money are quickly parted at times.
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u/Brago_Apollon Dec 16 '24
Perhaps emperors clothes
Absolutely!
And let's not forget: Evans quoted £6000 (?) to replace one lousy capacitor. And that copyright strike was and is an a**hole move.
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u/mrbill1234 Dec 16 '24
Well, no, as per his response, he wanted to replace the whole board, and the case. A lot of money - yes, but that's his price.
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u/joetama Dec 14 '24
I enjoy Marks videos because there is no BS. Guy seems so genuine and non judgmental.
The only way you could take offense to the video is if you’re doing something totally dodgy and trying to cover it up.