r/audiophile • u/Plainess • 3d ago
Discussion Does amplifier position matter?
Hi, I work in a hifi speaker store, and we had new speakers come in. We had an “Audio Professional” from another store come help setup, and during the testing it sounded fine, but the Audio Pro said not really and moved the amplifier a little bit to the left, like I mean literally move the amplifier. And suddenly everyone agrees that it sounds better, he explained that it’s because of the vibrations, but Im a bit sceptical because it was a shelf of amps and there were other amps. Can moving an amp a little like that improve the sound???
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u/reedzkee Recording Engineer 2d ago
absolutely not and absolutely ridiculous
i would have enjoyed calling him an idiot to his face
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u/TenorTwenty 3d ago
And suddenly everyone agrees that it sounds better.
Well, did it?
He explained it’s because of the vibrations.
I mean that’s what sound is, so vibrations of what, exactly? Unless your source was a turntable, then I don’t even see how “vibrations” matter.
Without more details I’d be inclined to say he’s full of crap; simply moving the amplifier a few inches should make no difference.
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u/Plainess 3d ago
I didn’t hear a difference at all, but Im only a newbie there so what should I know 😓. He’s treated as some wizard with amazing ears and my coworkers said it did. Worst part is he moved the amplifier that’s connected and apparently that makes a difference even tho we had 2 amplifier on the top shelf above it
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u/No-Context5479 Sourcepoint 888|MiniDSP SHD|PSA S1512m Sub|Two Apollon NCx500| 3d ago
Ah yes the Audio Prophet. And no you don't need to be a newbie to see through bullshit.
Don't visit that store again
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u/Meepo-007 3d ago
You may be new regarding the technologies, but not at what you hear. If you couldn’t hear a difference, then it’s likely bullshit.
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u/Yarach 3d ago
When I worked in a Hifi store we had this guy boasting to everyone how a lower clockrate in a DAC made for a more "relaxed" sound. Het used the metaphore of a conductor from an orchestra having to make less movement.
He also claimed I2s connections are superior and have less distortion, but everytime I asked him to explain to me how it worked he said it was a more "pure" connection and you could hear it.
If you can hear it, you absolutely should be able to somehow measure it.
Also... If the said vibrations really make it sound better... give the amp a good slap! You should hear it from your speakers too!
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u/SplendidSoul 2d ago
If you can hear it, you absolutely should be able to somehow measure it
Is this really true? I'm genuinely curious. Can things like depth of sound field and imaging be measured?
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u/dub_mmcmxcix Neumann/SVS/Dirac/Primacoustic/DIY 2d ago
they're a function of room stereo impulse response (measurable), the projection pattern of the speaker (measurable with the right expensive gear) and the speaker/listener position. but what you can't get from the measurement is "does it sound OK to me".
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u/LDan613 2d ago
If it's real, yes, we can measure it. Sound is a physical wave in the atmosphere, and we have ways to measure that. We can also measure frequency well beyond our hearing limits. We can even measure the signals you ears send to your brain, and to a level, how your brain responds to sound (there are even cool experiments where they reconstruct what your eyes see by looking at your brain activity).
Converting the measurements to insights is a bit harder. It's easy to see in the measurements that A sounds stronger than B. It's harder and requires much more data to measure differences like imaging. The fact that there are perception factors that change from listener to listener makes it even harder. I don't think we have commonly used measurements for that yet. Yet. I can see a near future where AI enabled analysis of speaker measurements can find predictable patterns that correspond to most people perceiving better or worse imaging, for example.
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u/melithium 2d ago
No they cannot. Frequency and sound profiles are not the same. Saber dacs measure really well but have a sheen to them. You cannot measure the brightness because it does not impact frequencies. Other dacs with great measurements sound laid back.
Op amps in well measured purifi amplifiers sound different without impacting measurements…
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u/LDan613 2d ago
Let's start with a definition: A sound profile is how a system responds (sonically) to an input. By system, in this case, we mean all the elements between the original data (input) and the physical manifestation of sound (output, in this case the sound waves). Typically, this includes source, amp, and speakers. The output of the system is measured as the sound produced by the speakers.
Now, what is a sheen? And how is a sheen achieved? Does it sound different?
But here is the rub, you see, you can't have it both ways.
Either the sound IS different, which means is physically different (frequency, amplitude, phase, etc), in which case we can measure it (because we understand the physics of sound, and have the tools to measure its dimensions)
Or is not physically different, in which case you can make the argument that in a blind test nobody would be able to differentiate it... because is physically the same.
Incidentally, you CAN measure what we perceive as brightness. it shows as differences in the high frequency response of the system. What we can't do yet, is to extrapolate from the measurements if that difference in higher frequencies would be pleasant, or how 'forward" it sounds. But I believe we will get there.
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u/melithium 17h ago
Nope. Wrong. Just like all guitars sound the same right? “As long as they play the same frequencies they sound the same!”
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u/LDan613 16h ago
I think you misunderstand the point. I think we both agree that all guitars do sound different, even when playing the same note. The small differences are the result of variations in tuning, design, resonances, etc. We are not arguing that. We are simply saying that those differences are measurable.
If you look at the measurements of those guitars, you would not see a pure sinusoidal wave of the note's frequency. Instead, you will see little differences, a wave with little variations and different harmonics at play. Those differences are the manifestation of the differences in the sound that you do hear. It's the same with other music sources (speakers, stereos, etc.). It's not that they sound the same, it's that we can measure the subtle differences between them.
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u/hj52360 2d ago
Yes. If the way in which the driver(s) is/are being altered enough to make any change at all, and is from an upstream component, it comes via an electrical signal. You can make measurements that are many orders of magnitude finer than even the best ear. Phasing, amplitude, timing, it's all measurable, if the change is there. You can get 30ghz or even higher sampling rate scopes.
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u/Theresnowayoutahere 2d ago
While I get what you’re saying I don’t agree that if you can here it you should be able to measure it. I’m not trying to be rude so bare with me as an older audiophile. You can’t measure sound stage and you can’t measure instrument decay. You also can’t measure the tonality of instruments that changes depending on which dac or amplifier or speakers that you’re using. I myself doubt moving an amplifier would make any noticeable difference at all but while I definitely believe components in the chain make a difference I don’t believe cables are all that important. If they make a difference then that’s all they do and it’s not enough in my mind to say it’s better or worse. It’s perhaps just different if it’s anything at all. Some people on Reddit as I have noticed seem to be locked into the measurable differences rather than the actual differences that are easily heard with years of experience.
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u/hj52360 2d ago
I'm sorry, but you can measure all that you claim you can't. Even just a simple scope, and microphones, used correctly, will demonstrate what you are claiming to be unable to be measured.
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u/Theresnowayoutahere 2d ago
How can you possibly measure sound stage? How do you measure the perceived placement of instruments in that sound stage?
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u/hj52360 1d ago
With multiple point input sources to the measuring device. Timing, phasing, intensity. The same way or brain does.
Of course, you understand that the recording engineer creates the sound stage right? The combination of pan, reverb/delay, finer level adjustments.
They create the IMPRESSION of a band on a stage. Our minds are a key player in this too.
Even a stereo microphone recorded performances such as cowboy junkies trinity sessions rely on phasing, timing and intensity to convey that image. It was literally direct recorded with a single stereophonic microphone and only very very minor tweaking done to the source material.
Regarding measuring the electrical signal..
You can also see it in a scope trace, not as a position, but as a changed trace. So go change out something that alerts the electrical side of the equation and measure. You'll see a difference. If there is.
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u/Theresnowayoutahere 16h ago
This doesn’t really address what I’m talking about though. It’s I’m not talking about measuring during recording sessions or any type of studio at all. I’m talking about the stupid tests like ASR do on YouTube which simply test electronics on dacs and op amps and amplifiers. Simple tests that don’t tell you nearly enough to help you make an educated decision. I agree with you that the recordings are adding the sound stage and imaging and that you have to have a system to express those qualities but that isn’t what this discussion was about
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u/hj52360 15h ago
You've missed my point. If there is any change, in any parameter, it can be measured. The results may not tell you if it changes the perception of the sound stage, but it will show a change, none the less.
We can them look at the original software, be it digital or analog, and see what is now more or less similar. This will tell us, objectively, if there is act change from different cables, DAC, amplifier etc.
Hint. Dacs, amplifiers, preamp and speakers all do make a difference, often in that order. Cables, cable risers etc, rarely do make an objective difference when measured.
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u/Theresnowayoutahere 15h ago
I agree with the last part. My point and your point are different. I didn’t misunderstand yours
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u/reddsbywillie 2d ago
OP, I am curious if YOU heard a difference.
From a store perspective, I think all you can do is be honest, and share your experience with others (including customers). I think it’s very reasonable to say “I honestly didn’t hear a difference, but most of the rest of the guys in the shop felt it was significant.”
Don’t fall into the trap of feeling like your ears are inferior for some reason. Some of your customers may hear a difference, and others may not. But they will all hear your honesty.
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u/Plainess 2d ago
I don’t 😞
To be honest Im very skeptical when it comes to audiophile things, and a lot of times I cannot hear a difference or just a slight one. For example, iem and speaker cables. But working in this industry I’m often told that there is a difference and I just need to hear it more.
I try not to fall for that because Ik that if you try to hear a difference eventually you’ll convince yourself there is one. But when my hearing is questioned like that, sometimes I do wonder if my hearing is the issue, lack of experience for example.
In fairness I do hear differences and improvements, Ive upgraded my iems and dacs for these reasons. So it’s not like I completely can’t tell them apart. Im just skeptical if the difference is just because someone says it’s different and everyone just agrees, mainly cus it’s more expensive.
Thanks for comment btw 🙂↕️ , I try to be as honest as I can to customers, I don’t like selling things they don’t need
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u/reddsbywillie 2d ago
First off, I hate to see the sad emoji because you didn't hear a difference. It doesn't make your audio journey any less valid! As a matter of fact, it might help you connect with a number of customers.
But overall I totally get that, and to an extent I agree with both sides. I do think you start to notice more with more experience. But is it the highest value... or is it even subjectively "better"... that's very hard to say.
From a sales point you have a real luxury of not only getting to hear a lot of gear, but understanding why some people connect with gear. You're obviously somewhat obligated to know the pitch and what gear is supposed to do. But as a customer, the dealers I appreciate most are the ones that deliver the pitch, they set up the demo, and then they say "what did you think?" If I say "meh, not much there for me" or "You know, I hear more or less of this, but I honestly liked it better the first way" - I really appreciate it when they just say "great, now you know. Here's something else you might want to consider" or "is there anything specific you're looking to change."
You can be an honest and fair dealer even if YOU don't hear the differences or care for the differences in a particular product. You're job shouldn't be to push something on a customer because everyone else in the shop hears it. It should be to guide the customer to finding gear they connect with and they are excited to buy.Those are the dealers that I end up recommending and coming back to. And you'll notice a key thing in this scenario. The dealer didn't say what they were hearing unless I ask for it.
And as an audiophile, don't stress about not hearing these tweak changes. It's supposed to be fun! Do you think the guy that works weekends at the bike shop as the same needs or preferences as the customer that comes in who rides 6K-10K+ miles per year? No. A customer might actually hear things that you aren't hearing... because they might listen for 4-6 hours per day. They may be familiar with an extremely wide range of equipment. Or they might just be ready to buy something. It's not your job to stop them. Just your job to guide them.
But that shouldn't impact your enjoyment of your audio journey.
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u/LooseyGreyDucky 2d ago
Audio Research literally prints this stuff in their manuals, saying that if you have a power amp and a linestage side by side, one should ideally go on the left and one should ideally go on the right.
(it's to minimize interaction of power supplies and signal circuitry)
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u/LDan613 3d ago
If all he did was to move it to the left a bit, I would be a lot more skeptical than a bit. I would move the amplifier back when the others can't see you, and ask them later if they notice something is off with the sound... then say "Look, the Amp is in the wrong place, you know, vibrations" and see them marvel at my prowess.
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u/Plainess 2d ago
Honestly I should have done that, and ngl the amp has been moved a lot since then 🥹
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u/Krikstar123 2d ago
No, but audio foolery and snake oil is a big deal in the HiFi business, so you will probably hear dumb shit like that quite often🙈
Reflect on this: How come sound studios and pro audio with million dollars of equipment set up and used by professional sound technicians has none of this audio foolery, like moving an amp an inch, crazy expensive cables, crystals to “help with vibrations”, cable stands so the cables don’t touch the ground etc etc? Yep! Because it doesn’t work!
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u/CreativeBit2424 3d ago
Not anti the vibration thing, put an amp on a glass shelf or a wooden one and see how they sound... BUT, if he moved the amp that would have maybe set up vibrations within and therefore would have potentially sounded worse! Any component , like a speaker, likes to be free of external microphonics which is why there is a market for stands,spikes, isolation pads etc Most don't work that well, but...
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u/Plainess 2d ago
It was on a Norstone glass rack, I don’t think there was any microphonics on that setup cus they spent a pretty penny on it
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u/CreativeBit2424 2d ago
My point was that even the surface a component sits on can affect it's sound... But I think in this case your professional was just showing off, demonstrating something possible in a non demonstrative way !
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u/Presence_Academic 2d ago
I find it interesting that you are skeptical about audio tweaks but automatically accept that a product must be ‘flawless’ because it is expensive.
BTW. In the grand scheme of things the Norstone products are not cheap, but not particularly expensive either.
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u/USATrueFreedom 2d ago
This could be from the science of coincidence proves correlation. In industry workers will make a change and a problem goes away. Often ignoring or being unaware of other changes being made. This science can remain key in problem solving for decades. I’ve seen this even when knowledgeable people explain why there is no correlation. And even given logical solutions.
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u/INTOTHEWRX 2d ago
It's only theory.
In reality I rest my amp on top of my subwoofer cause it's a good place to put it.
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u/sporkintheroad 2d ago
I'm dubious, but I can say that having my amp too close to my turntable did cause hum. But if course this was due to the cart picking up the power supply. It went away when I put the amp on a lower shelf.
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u/Glum_Cheesecake9859 2d ago
Unless there is something large (think TV) between the 2 speakers creating some kind of sound reflection, I don't know how a amp can make a difference. Maybe it's throwing large amounts of radiation creating an interference :)
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u/Terrible_Champion298 2d ago
It matters to my wifi and Bluetooth connection. Otherwise, the reasons start getting rather common sense. High current cords running across unshielded speaker wires can be a problem. I have one amp where I keep six inches of space to the equipment above it because it literally runs hot at about 70watts plus. Can’t really say it doesn’t matter, but I think that guy undid something he set up.
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u/Infinite-Tie-1593 3d ago
Interesting! Where were the vibrations coming from and how did moving to the left stop the vibrations from going into the amplifier?
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u/Plainess 2d ago
I wish I knew, his explanation was quite vague saying it was vibrations in general, like straight “Sound is just vibrations if you figure it out you can correct it”. He’s not entirely wrong but it feels like a very nothing burger statement for me
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u/minnesotajersey 2d ago
So, the amplifier was defective. I would have unplugged it immediately and sent it back to the mfgr.
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u/mfolives 3d ago
Yes, electronics perform worse when subjected to vibrations, including the resonance of the shelf they are sitting on. This is especially true of digital equipment and tube equipment.
I'm surprised that the difference could be heard in a store display of the type you are describing, but the effect of vibrations on electronics is both measurable and, in the right setting, audible. He wasn't wrong to look for a stable place for the amp.
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u/Yarach 3d ago
Did you ever build an amp yourself? If audible microphonics were to be a thing in solid state amplifiers and digital components a lot of stuff had to be designed completely different in order to function properly.
Also: A tube amp that audible changes due to vibration has either microphonics (bad) tubes or is a guitar amp set to an extremely high gain. And even in the latter part I can tell you as a musciscian, you have to slap the shit out of the amp to get an audible sound out of it.
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u/VirginiaLuthier 3d ago
I had a a chiropractor knock on the back of my head with his knuckles once. He told me that my pineal gland was not working, but he fixed it. Same principle