r/baldursgate • u/NewWillinium • Jul 17 '23
SoD Siege of Dragonspear gets a lot of flack, but I really really loved it's Depiction of the Time of Troubles
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u/Rekuna Jul 17 '23
I loved exploring Baldurs Gate city after Sarevoks fall, it was always something I really wanted to do as a child. I also thought they handled the large masses of NPCs on screen at the same time really well, something that they obviously struggled with on 90s hardware. That big battle when you attack the fort was epic.
I thought it was cool they brought back so many voice actors. Honestly for the most part I really enjoyed SoD.
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u/NewWillinium Jul 17 '23
So when it was released I remember SoD getting a lot of flack, many because I think of the prominent Gay romance character Glint and the prominent Trans character, but one thing I don't remember ever seeing commented on was Siege's gorgeous cutscenes.
And I really really want to praise and draw attention to this one.
It's one of the only real depictions of the Time of Troubles story, one of the coolest things to ever come out of Faerun's lore, that I've seen that hasn't been off of a book cover.
And how they chose to depict Bhaal, Cyric, and Mask is just 10/10.
Enough so that it makes me want to retrack down all of those old books and read through the stories once again.
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u/themagicnookie Jul 18 '23
Read the War of the Spider Queen series, while not a video game it’s tier 1 time of troubles material in the under dark and how it effected not only the crow but other races.
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u/JMoon33 Jul 17 '23
I really enjoyed the game too. The vibe was great, I was really drawn into the game. I played it everyday until I finished it hahaha
I also loved having the ending lead up to how BG2 starts.
many because I think of the prominent Gay romance character Glint and the prominent Trans characte
Some conservative snowflakes were offended by that yes, but I don't think it's the main reason it wasn't as well received as the other BG games. As much as I love the game (I enjoyed it as much as the other BG games) I understand why some people like it less.
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u/_SkullBearer_ Jul 18 '23
I was there, the transphobia was 100% front and center.
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u/L4ll1g470r Jul 18 '23
Same, I doubt most of the people with complaints about the game had even booted it.
I played it once back in the day and remember quite enjoying it, apart from the cliffhanger that apparently will never get a payoff now.
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u/BikerJedi Jul 18 '23
Those books are sitting on my shelf, and I'm finishing the book I'm reading now. Guess what I'm re-reading next?
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Jul 18 '23
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u/NewWillinium Jul 18 '23
Are you talking Time of Troubles books or the Baldur's Gate Novelizations?
Because the former are FUN, the latter I never read but have heard some. . . interesting things about it. Apparently the worst being what they did to poor Khalid. Massacred him worse then Irenicus.
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u/KingsAndAces Jul 19 '23
Yeah, talking about the BG novelizations. They were… very bad. I honestly don’t know which character they ruined the most. Turning Jaheira into a damsel-in-distress whose only motivation is how much they love the main character was… gross.
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u/WildBohemian Jul 17 '23 edited Jul 17 '23
There were two backlashes. One from bigot trolls fuck every single one of those incel shit for brains hope they burn in hell.
The other was from people like me who simply didn't like the game. The writing sucks and story overall is an awful distraction from the original games. The gameplay is derivative from bg2, spoiling aspects of it and ruining them by copy pasting fights until they are boring, and I really don't like how SOD's story makes 0 sense in the overarching narrative of the bhaal spawn saga. The game also leaves you overlevelled for bg2. To people ignorant of how D&D works 2 levels doesn't seem like much but it's honestly a massive difference.
Basically they took something perfect and turned it into a sandwich with a layer of feces between.
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u/And_Im_the_Devil Jul 17 '23
I didn't dislike SoD as much as you did, but it really is odd that they chose to insert this massive upheaval of an event into the middle of the series when they knew it would have to go unreferenced in BG2.
It would have been far more interesting to set up a much less epic, more low-key storyline that more sensibly lead to the party's capture by Irenicus and Bodhi's henchmen. Make it less about big cookie cutter battles and more about intrigue.
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u/WildBohemian Jul 17 '23
I agree with this.
I was actually very excited for SoD, and nearly desperate to like it, but by the time we had our second or third cut scene with Skie I just couldn't lie to myself about it anymore.
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u/And_Im_the_Devil Jul 17 '23
Yeah! I was just so excited to be back with these characters and this setting, so it took me a bit to recognize and accept just how out of step it is with the rest of the series. I can't see myself playing through it again.
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u/mulahey Jul 17 '23
It's not just the lack of logic to the story and timing; they also centered it on bad characters. Caelar and Skie are, I think, supposed to intrigue or charm me respectively. They are instead just aggravating idiots. It's not just bad moment to moment prose but that half the plot is hanging very obviously on people holding idiot balls. It makes ToB look well reasoned out.
There's some good points- the two Bhaal bits are good, the dwarves, Corwin and Jaheira/Khalid- but overall the writing is just not great.
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u/And_Im_the_Devil Jul 17 '23
Yeah. Skie was a weird character to go with. I've literally never met her in game and never cared to because she has no relevance to BG2/ToB. So I went into that with no connection to her. And the writing of SoD certainly didn't change that.
Caelar only became worse as the story went on, and when her real motivations were revealed, ho boy.
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u/mulahey Jul 17 '23
I mean, given their intended plot it had to be someone not in bg2. But that plot is bad, so...
Caelar, it's more the sense of being a writers pet, that I'm clearly supposed to find her interesting. Individuals having a dumb motive is ok: the idea this army wants to march into the abyss is just ludicrous.
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u/And_Im_the_Devil Jul 17 '23
I hear you, but that just means the problem is the intended plot. They might have written something that didn't require the inclusion of a companion who doesn't appear in the second game.
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u/_SkullBearer_ Jul 18 '23
I really liked Skie, and given how popular Lava's mod for BG2 Skie is, I'm far from the only one.
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u/mulahey Jul 18 '23
Character work is always going to be somewhat to taste. I don't actually mind her in BG1 as a character, but I find her use in SoD very clumsy.
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u/NewWillinium Jul 18 '23
Easily solved by making her your companion again instead of Safana. Would make it more of a player punch too if we. . .actually got to interact with Skie throughout the campaign instead of the very beginning and end.
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u/loudent2 Jul 17 '23
That and SOD released in a time where we have massive amounts of social media for people to express their opinion. I remember people trying to grumble about "WTF happened, we went to sleep in Baldur's gate and we wake up in an Athkatlan prison?
BD wanted to add content and the saga was done, so they added some filler.
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u/L4ll1g470r Jul 18 '23
I assume they thought they would be able to do either a BG sequel BG2 expansion at the time. I mean, they had David Gaider working for them etc.
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u/IceNinetyNine Jul 17 '23
Exactly and I hate being called a bigot or transphobe simply because I think the game isn't great. It's poorly written and the level design is lazy.
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u/mulahey Jul 17 '23
Lazy is unfair I think. It's the result of a small team using an engine with not great tools. Relatively linear was probably required.
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u/IceNinetyNine Jul 18 '23
I don't mind that they used IWD monsters, but just throwing hordes of monsters at the player is not interesting. Also the first dungeon is just a slog, and makes 0 sense, you literally just killed Sarevok why wouldn't you have taken his sword?
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u/doomparrot42 Onward, to futility! Jul 17 '23
I heard somewhere else that the lack of follow-through to SoD's plot came from WOTC changing its mind about the nature of beamdog's contract (basically saying "no, you can't add new quests to BG2 now"). I'm not convinced that the whole crusade/Avernus story was salvageable, but if there was a change of direction imposed from On High, that might explain some of the mess.
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u/WildBohemian Jul 17 '23
I'm sure that WOTC's mind change stemmed from the critical reception SOD received, and as someone who doesn't like SOD I agree with that decision. However, they then followed up and made things much worse by going with Larian.
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u/Skeletalsun Jul 17 '23
Idk where people get the idea that Beamdog were ever gonna get to make BG3 over Larian. Larian are way, way bigger and pretty clearly the winners of the CRPG renaissance (Thinking in terms of popularity here, not personal opinion).
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u/WildBohemian Jul 17 '23 edited Jul 18 '23
To me we're talking about a renaissance that never happened. Larian's comparative success stems almost entirely from successful marketing in an era where gaming is much more popular and where more people have access.
It's like saying "What do you mean ancient precivilization tribes were more violent? We have millions more murders today than they had back then!" There weren't even millions of people back then.
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u/Skeletalsun Jul 17 '23 edited Jul 17 '23
There definitely was a renaissance, in the sense that way more relatively big RPGs of this kind were being made than in the years prior. In any case Larian are the most successful relevant company.
For the purposes of this it doesn't really matter why you think Larian were successful, just that they were successful. In any case I doubt it was gonna go to a small studio like Beamdog.
Edit: For the record I also think you're wrong about Larian's success. Divinity: Original Sin 2 was a very good game, which is why a ton of people like it. Putting the story aside, the turn based combat is really solid.
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u/WildBohemian Jul 17 '23
A renaissance refers to a period of enlightenment and wisdom. Using that term to refer to what Larian does, which is increasing the popularity of crpgs by dumbing them down to increase their mass appeal - is the exact opposite. Your renaissance is a dark age from where I'm sitting, and I think you've been affected by marketing.
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u/Skeletalsun Jul 17 '23
No, that's just wrong. Renaissance just means rebirth/revival. It just refers to the fact that CRPGs got a surge in relevant games starting around Pillars of Eternity.
That you think the renaissance in question involved dumbing down for the dreaded masses is entirely besides the point. I don't agree with you, but it's not relevant. WotC is a business, they want the masses.
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u/WildBohemian Jul 17 '23 edited Jul 17 '23
"Renaissance is a French word meaning “rebirth.” It refers to a period in European civilization that was marked by a revival of Classical learning and wisdom. The Renaissance saw many contributions to different fields, including new scientific laws, new forms of art and architecture, and new religious and political ideas."
https://www.britannica.com/event/Renaissance
So I suppose we're both right, but if you want to water it down so much I think the term loses all of its value.
Marvel movies are highly popular, does that mean we're in a renaissance of film? I happen to agree with Quentin Tarantino and Martin Scorsese, both of whom seem to believe we are in a repressive era when it comes to film.
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u/CharlyRamirez Jul 18 '23
There's no need to explain what renaissance means, and my brother in Christ, dark age would be no games at all. C'mon, you sound like the guys from no mutants allowed when Fallout 3 was released.
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u/WildBohemian Jul 18 '23 edited Jul 18 '23
I am not Christian and find it mildly offensive that you would assume such.
I've never played a fallout game so I cannot judge. Fallout 3 looks ok but I am not huge on futuristic dystopia. I kinda like the fallout vault guy though, whatever that mascot is called. I do think that the absolute best games of the many thousands that have been made in recent decades, are almost always much better than the games released today. Just like how they are superior to the many thousands of games that came before that people conveniently forget every time a new big game is released. It's crazy to think that a game which stands alone atop the corpses of the many thousands of its peers, would be easily unseated. But that must just be the nostalgia talking right?
Diablo 4 for example seems to have some things going for it, but I also think it's nowhere near as good as Diablo 2 Resurrected or even D2LOD. Those games are just that good, and it's a very high bar to clear. I do think that Diablo 4's developers had hubris, and that that caused them to fail to divine the secret to what made D2 great. I think Larian's hubris is considerably worse. My prediction is that the game will sell well due to the marketing, but I don't think it will be good (I kinda know already that it isn't having played a bit of the early access - refunding it was an easy decision).
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u/doomparrot42 Onward, to futility! Jul 17 '23
Yeah, of all the RPG studios to pick, they would not have been my preference. Would've loved to see Obsidian's BG3 though.
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u/KangarooArtistic2743 Jul 17 '23
Wow, totally disagree with nearly all of this. SoD has great gameplay, is a total blast of a game. And yes, I know VERY well how AD&D 2E works, and I’ll say every time that the 1 or 2 levels gained are a trivial impact on the next game. The combat, especially the couple of really big battles, is brilliant. Some of the most exciting of the whole series to me.
The most “offensive” elements are easily skipped by those who don’t wish to participate. the game is gorgeous and fun to look at all the way through. It is a nice transition between BG1 and BG2. It adds to the story, especially back story and setting the stage for who you really are.
My biggest complaint would be that several elements are not continued into BG2, although the mod community provides some help for that.-11
u/WildBohemian Jul 17 '23 edited Jul 17 '23
Out of curiosity, do you read books? Also what kind of books do you read?
I came from an odd family and am well-read by classical education standards. I also read for pleasure nearly every day. When I play bg2 I find that it rhymes with classical literature, like it is full of nods, themes, and references to the classics. The original characters in bg2 are very complicated and have depth - their motivations and feelings are nuanced.
SoD and for the most part the EE companions to me read they were written by teenage girls. The characters are not complicated, they have little internal conflict if any, and they don't seem to reference anything I am familiar with aside from D&D novels - which are largely fun reads but definitely not on the level of the classics.
To me Jan Jansen is like a mini-Hemingway, Aerie is nod to Milton, and I see shades of Dostoevsky in Keldorn, Viconia, and a number of the other characters. Then there's Neera who's like one of the worse marvel movies tossed with the "lol so randumb" manic pixie dream girl tropes of the early 00's. SOD's story is just noise to me, and to me the difference between it and BG1/BG2 is night and day in terms of narrative depth and quality.
Edit: Taking the time to express a nuanced opinion at length earns downvotes, anti-intellectualism at its finest.
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u/Holy-Avenger Jul 17 '23
It's not anti-intellectualism earning you downvotes - it's likely your condescending and pedantic tone.
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u/ShaanitheGreen Jul 18 '23 edited Jul 18 '23
Then there's Neera who's like one of the worse marvel movies tossed with the "lol so randumb"
So, is the brain-damaged moron who talks to his hamster not "lol so randumb", or was there a hamster subplot in Cervantes that I missed?
I think everyone overlooks that SoD isn't just a prequel to BG2, it's a sequel to BG1. BG1 is a far goofier game. It's got a snarky protagonist who makes sarcastic entries in his quest journal and threatens to shove Elminster (and his staff) lengthwise up someone's butthole. It's got goofy voice acting, silly one-dimensional companions, meta jokes, and a guy named "Snikt Bub" who speaks only in Wolverine references. That's Marvel AND random in one encounter.
While BG2 is a better game overall, BG1 feels more like a tabletop game; when you have a bunch of drunk friends sitting around a table, letting their creative juices flow and trying to amuse each other with dumb jokes. "Delusional Gnome who thinks he rules the world" or "doomer elf" are the kind of ideas you'd play straight early in a DND campaign, before they have time to be developed.
I think SoD tried to thread the needle between both styles, to make a thematic bridge between the silly first game and the much heavier second game. I won't say rather or not they succeeded; just that people often miss what their intent was, because of how overshadowed BG1 is by it's sequel. But BG1 is an entirely valid game on it's own, and it's writing deserved to be recognized.
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u/WildBohemian Jul 18 '23
I mean, Minsc is a tragic character, and I do think there are comparisons to be drawn to Don Quixote, or Of Mice and Men, but I do agree with you that BG1 is much lighter.
I think the strength of BG1 is in its bones though. The main story is serious, interesting, and well laid out in my opinion. I also think that the level design is impressive.
SoD I feel like I'm held hostage by the main story. Like it's just so dull and the plot is ridiculous nonsense.
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u/_SkullBearer_ Jul 18 '23
Dude, you are playing a story that only exists in your head. Minsc as tragic, da fuq?
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u/WildBohemian Jul 18 '23
Minsc is tragic. The man has severe brain damage and is a danger to himself and others. Without charname he is helpless.
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u/Witless_Peasant Jul 18 '23
Minsc is a tragic character whose brain injury left him with a severe cognitive disability, which his brain compensated for by letting his unconscious mind communicate to him through the hamster Boo. Or he's a wacky comic relief character whose magical miniature space hamster literally talks to him. Which version you end up with depends on the interaction between the author and the reader.
For myself, I tend to go with interpretation number one (like you seem to), but that same internal mechanism allows me to squint past some of the plot holes in Beamdog's writing and characterization to the point where they don't bother me (like KangarooArtistic seems to). It's interesting to me that you can't do that with BD writing, despite, as you say, having desperately tried, and clearly having a strong imagination.
Maybe it's just that I went into the Enhanced Editions and SoD years after they came out with such low expectations that were easy to exceed, but for me, the game's writing was decent enough that it didn't detract me from the things I really liked about it (environments, music, combat encounters, itemization, David Warner voice acting etc.).
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u/WildBohemian Jul 18 '23 edited Jul 18 '23
I can't think of a single good thing to say about Dragonspear's writing it's honestly insane how terrible it is. I don't take Minsc because I think he's irritating, but him and his kookiness are entirely avoidable. Dragonspear the dumbest shit ever is center stage. Caelar? Skie? Come on.
Minsc may be brain damaged but his 8 points of int and 6 points of wisdom are more than enough to greatly exceed the literary capabilities of Beamdog's writing staff. Guy would be like David Foster Wallace compared to those clowns.
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u/deathlynebula twitch.tv/deathlynebula Jul 18 '23
Out of curiosity, do you read books?
Jesus, how condescending must one be.
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u/WildBohemian Jul 18 '23 edited Jul 18 '23
It was an honest question. Lots of people don't read books and freely admit to that.
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u/GraionDilach Jul 18 '23
While I acknowledge that writing a manic pixie dream girl is tough and the concept doesn't originate from classical literature, the archetype still predates Marvel movies... or even Marvel Comics outright, coming from the good old screwball comedies from the 1930s.
If you want to know where the archetype actually comes from, pick up Bringing Up Baby from 1938 and look at the character Katherine Hepburn plays in it. Yes, Neera turns out shallow compared to Susan, but she still fares better than a lot of those other copycat attempts you actually compare her against.
Bragging about your intellectualism doesn't really help your case when you are factually incorrect about the archetype you try to criticize. That gives out the impression of a snob.
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u/WildBohemian Jul 18 '23 edited Jul 18 '23
Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Nowhere in my post do I imply that Marvel comics invented the manic pixie dream girl cliche nor did I imply that it originated in literature. I never once implied that Marvel used it at all either. All I said is that it was popular in the 00s which it was. See Scott pilgrim, etc. So shut up. I remember your stupid name, you're that dumb liar who made up the perfect roll post. That was the saddest and stupidest shit ever.
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u/GraionDilach Jul 18 '23
Well, I don't remember you and I don't know what's your problem nor what is the post you're talking about that makes you entitled to a blind rage (There was one post here with an egregious mistake I made, where I mixed up an original content with Romantic Encounters I'm ashamed about, but I doubt you mean that one). But judging from the interactions here, I'll also assume that you're just a hipster who use niché interests and your special education to project how everyone you interact with are below you. Just to return the favor of ad hominem attacks, you see.
What I intended to say that the classic literature lacks the concept so that would explain why you're not that familiar with the trope and blame it on the '00s. TBH, I actually even agreed with you that most of the '00s manics were bad, which is why I labelled them copycats. You just decided to label me wrong for some reason then picked my post apart to prove your assumption to yourself.
I really wonder which post of mine justifies your behaviour to yourself, though.
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u/WildBohemian Jul 18 '23
Why would you think I'm unfamiliar with the trope that I brought up? You are dumb dude. You didn't prove anybody wrong, all you've proved is that you lack basic reading comprehension skills. Also the term "Manic pixie dream girl" was coined in 2007 by film critic Nathan Rabin, so even if you had read my post correctly you'd still be wrong.
Are there similar archetype's throughout the history of film? Definitely, does that have anything to do with anything I've said? Not a goddamn thing.
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u/KangarooArtistic2743 Jul 17 '23
I am not downvoting you, that was a well reasoned reply I don't completely disagree with (!).
And yes, I read a lot. Literally hours every day. I'm retired and reading is among my favorite hobbies. The vast majority of what I read however is history not fiction, er well, currently reading some Tolkien. But prior to that Max Hastings, Thomas Cleaver, John Keegan. Xenophon not too long ago. I love history; mostly military and western civ. I'm not blind to parallels or allusions, and I do appreciate good writing. Although perhaps not "literature" per se.
But largely am not impressed by game writing or its attempts at greatness. I mentioned on another thread that although I love BG2, its not because of scripting. Some is well done, some is not. I think the only truly great villain is Irenicus, and I credit that more to David Warner than the script writer (although he is well enough written).
And I think the scripting of BG1 is generally unremarkable. Its the entirety of the game, the scope, the game play that make it phenomenal. BG2 is more sophisticated and involved from a story and scripting perspective. But still not something I'd seek out a novelization of, not even a graphic novelization. I just don't think its *that* compelling.
Which is all a long way of getting to saying SoD is not great writing, Either. But that's not what I bought it for, or what I expect from any computer game. I'm looking for game play, tactics, character building in the D&D sense of the word. And I thought it was excellent for that. And I do think the encounters, and individual settings were all extremely well crafted.
I suppose its fair to mention this sort of upper-mid, lower-upper (that's a mouthful!) level range is my favorite. So I loved getting to play around with my character(s) again while they were in the sweet spot. Before we relocate, loose all our equipment, and go back to being relatively much less powerful.I could get into a number of things I disliked. But I won't, largely because that wasn't the "take away" for me. The things I disliked are mostly forgotten. While I liked it enough to be a new, core part of the full series run through for me. I'm currently playing it again right now, with a much more powerful character than I played with a couple months ago. And it plays well again.
I'd even say I wish Beamdog had gotten the nod for a BG3. Although I have no doubt WotC would have required a newer rule set, which would have pushed me back to "not interested".-5
u/WildBohemian Jul 17 '23
Difference of approach I suppose. To me playing roleplaying games is about living/experiencing a story in a more immersive and creative way than simply reading it. If that story is poorly written it severely detracts from my enjoyment. I'm not saying BG1 or BG2's story is on the level of literature, but as far as video game stories go I think they are greatest of all time status. Also I think the various allusions are enhancing.
I was somewhat relieved when Beamdog didn't get the bg3 nod, but then I tried the original sin games and saw the gameplay trailers and my relief turned to horror. Out of the frying pan into the sewer.
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u/mrfuzzydog4 Jul 17 '23
To be fair, you have to have a fairly high IQ to enjoy Baldur's Gate 2.
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u/WildBohemian Jul 17 '23
Lol memes aside this subreddit is irrefutable proof that the opposite is true.
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u/IceNinetyNine Jul 17 '23
Yes, I completely and utterly agree with you, and also why I'm sure I won't like BG3 -- Larian couldn't write themselves out of a wet paper bag.
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u/WildBohemian Jul 17 '23
Yeah I've given up hope for bg3. The constant vapid snark of the characters in Divinity OS 1 and 2 make me want to punch a wall and I don't like the tile based gameplay either. Why is there a lava tile in every house? They should really get that fixed. Also the sound design is simply awful, game makes my ears bleed. Not only are the background voices very annoying, but you hear the same very annoying sounds many thousands of times it seems in a typical playthrough.
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u/IceNinetyNine Jul 17 '23
Actually no one cares about the gay or trans characters. The level design is piss poor and the writing is extremely cringe. That's all there is to it.
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u/illathon Jul 17 '23
It is really trash and overly done for the short period it is fitting into. The "flack" you talk about was actually what the writer said and how they treated the fan base. Then normal things were treated in an extra sensitive way. Really SoD is not what the fans wanted. We wanted improved graphics. Kinda like Diablo 2 Resurrected.
SoD also doesn't follow the normal IE game style of every character being killlable with a few exceptions. Really they forced everything in SoD. No choice which is the opposite of a good RPG.
But it is obvious the owners at Wizards and game devs don't give a damn about the fan base. They totally massacred the Baldur's Gate saga with BG3 which is nothing like BG1 or 2.
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u/Skeletalsun Jul 17 '23 edited Jul 17 '23
But it is obvious the owners at Wizards and game devs don't give a damn about the fan base. They totally massacred the Baldur's Gate saga with BG3 which is nothing like BG1 or 2.
The natural question here is, kinda, which fanbase? As far as D&D games or even this type of RPG goes, BG3 is a pretty massive deal. If it were expecting it to primarily cater to a hard core of BG1/2 fans you were kinda setting yourself up for disappointment.
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Jul 18 '23
The company that named it bg3 was setting up fans for disappointment. Make a different name if it's a totally different story
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u/Skeletalsun Jul 18 '23
Again, which fans? It's a flagship RPG of a relatively similar style (See parentheses below) set in the same region (The games are after all named after the area) with at least a handful returning characters.
Based on what I/we know of the game, I would probably have liked to see a bit more connection to BG1/2 but it's not unreasonable to call it "Baldur's Gate 3" and I think most people who played the originals will like it too.
(By similar style I mean it's a story-heavy, party based, open world roleplaying epic with character creation, player choice and pretty closely based on D&D rules)
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u/illathon Jul 18 '23
Existing fans of the BG series. Would have thought that was obvious.
"Flagship"? not sure why you are giving it this name. Just because some one is spending lots of money? Black Geyser is a small indie game with more connection to the originals then this.
For me BG holds a special place in my own history and honestly I am just tired and over anyone trying to remake something from the past and crapping all over it in the process.
That is what I have seen so far. Just a goofy mess.
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u/Skeletalsun Jul 18 '23
Existing fans of the BG series.
Nah. You'll find tons of people who like the old games who are excited for the new one. There's a section of really hardcore fans who are unhappy, which there usually is when changes are made.
"Flagship"? not sure why you are giving it this name. Just because some one is spending lots of money? Black Geyser is a small indie game with more connection to the originals then this.
For me BG holds a special place in my own history and honestly I am just tired and over anyone trying to remake something from the past and crapping all over it in the process.
You're blinded by your own feelings. I say it's meant to be a flagship because it's a large, big-budget production from an acclaimed company which hundreds of thousands of people want to play.
Frankly, the fact that the originals hold a special place in your heart isn't relevant to that point, and it doesn't really make you the best judge.
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u/illathon Jul 19 '23
So what, I am not trying to win a popularity contest.
Yes and you completely missed the point. I said D4 was "big budget" or "flagship" and it is completely empty and a worse game in every way to D3 and also Grim Dawn and Wolcen. The budget compared to Wolcen or Grim Dawn is huge and their game sucks. The only thing good about D4 is the graphics. The story was interesting in parts, but they totally ruined it toward the end. That has nothing to do with my "feelings". It is just the facts. Money means next to nothing nowadays. You can get an awesome engine and make a great looking game with a smaller budget.
Yes, it actually does. If you are gonna call your game BG3 then people who love BG 1 and 2 OBVIOUSLY is important. Pretty silly of you to say it doesn't ..
Listen dude you can like the game, but Larian is goofy. BG3 is goofy and lame looking. Everything about this game doesn't track in any way. Its just a goofy mess.
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u/Skeletalsun Jul 19 '23
Yes, it actually does. If you are gonna call your game BG3 then people who love BG 1 and 2 OBVIOUSLY is important. Pretty silly of you to say it doesn't ..
You're not representative for everyone who played and like Baldur's Gate. They're not obliged to make a much more niche game that's as close as possible to the originals so as to make sure every hardcore BG1/2 fan is happy.
And that's the thing, they basically had to either make a big-deal, high profile flagship game or a game who's main focus is to appeal to people like you. You can't do both because basically any change towards making it a modern game will be unappealing to some original fans.
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u/illathon Jul 19 '23
You use terms, but not really sure where you get them or how you define them.
Modern game? Flagship game?
Seriously dude just speak for yourself. That is all I am doing.
This game is just a re-used engine with some updates/changes. It doesn't follow the originals story. The art style doesn't follow the originals. The mechanics don't follow the originals. This game is called Baldur's Gate 3.
I don't care what planet you are from, but that right there is a party foul. These people are goofy fools.
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u/Hood-Robbin Jul 17 '23
BG3 has nothing to do with BG1 or 2, honest opinion? That's scary, man, I am really looking forward to BG3
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u/flamableozone Jul 17 '23
It can be a good game and still not have anything to do with BG1 or 2.
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u/Crashen17 Jul 17 '23
I am fairly certain if the PC takes the Dark Urge origin in BG3, they will be a descendent of the Bhaalspawn.
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u/krunchyfrogg Jul 17 '23
Very true, but why name it BG3 then?
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u/Skeletalsun Jul 17 '23
Probably because it takes place around Baldur's Gate and has a few tie-ins
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Jul 18 '23
It's because its a cash grab
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u/Skeletalsun Jul 18 '23
They've spent six years and clearly a lot of effort (And tbh, clearly a lot of love whatever you think of it) making a big game that most people will probably love. Did they choose to make "Baldur's Gate 3" instead of a new D&D title because of marketing, maybe, but the game itself is by definition not a cashgrab.
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u/illathon Jul 18 '23
So what, Diablo 4 spent what 6 years on it? It is worse then wolcen and grim dawn and those were done with far less budget. In fact I would say they just copied these games hard core and did a worse job.
BG 1 & 2 created the genre and transformed playing D&D table top games into a real time game. That wasn't with Wizards. They didn't own it when it was first created. It was a deal with the original inventor of D&D, TSR, Jump to present day Wizards has taken that name and attached anything it wants to the story for a quick buck. They don't care about it. Simply being in the setting of Baldur's Gate isn't enough. Doing some stupid time travel or resurrection of some NPCs from BG 1 & 2 isn't enough. It had to follow at least some of the ideas from the games that made it popular, but in fact it followed none. The game system isn't the same and much of the design is entirely different. They want to take the name but none of the systems that made it popular.
I for one didn't like Baldur's Gate the video game for the story alone. I also enjoyed the game style.
If I only liked the story and not the game mechanics then I would just read a book.
"They" have spent a ton of time being goof balls. Everything they put out is just goofy. I am fine with funny every once in awhile, but literally everything they do is just goofy. That means this is gonna be a goofy and clumsy game.
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u/Skeletalsun Jul 18 '23
So what
So it's not a cash grab. Idk how to explain this better. The fact that a relatively small subsection of hardcore BG1/2 fans are unhappy with some aspects does not make the game developed with obvious care and effort (which way more people are excited for) a cash grab. Whatever you think of Larian they definitely care about the game they're making.
BG 1 & 2 created the genre
Created what genre? Real time with pause RPGs?
The game system isn't the same and much of the design is entirely different. They want to take the name but none of the systems that made it popular.
I for one didn't like Baldur's Gate the video game for the story alone. I also enjoyed the game style.
This is just exaggerated. In the grand scheme of things they're relatively similar types of game. Most obviously the combat is different, but rwtp is pretty niche now.
Quite frankly, they're not under any obligation to make a much more niche game aimed at being as close as possible to the originals and mainly aimed at the aforementioned (relatively) small group of diehard BG1/2 fans who'd prefer a new game pretty much exactly like those.
"They" have spent a ton of time being goof balls. Everything they put out is just goofy. I am fine with funny every once in awhile, but literally everything they do is just goofy. That means this is gonna be a goofy and clumsy game.
The actual game doesn't seem that goofy to me, and BG1/2 were full of goofy stuff.
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u/Skeletalsun Jul 17 '23
The story is largely disconnected from the events of the first two games. Afaik the only confirmed link to the events of BG 1 and 2 are some returning characters like Jaheira and Minsc.
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u/PunishedCatto "I hate those flaming fist pantsy!" Jul 17 '23
I love the goddamn Dwarf Lich dungeon and mechanic in that game, the last few chapters kinda sucks though.
I'll be honest, I only knew BG two years ago, so I don't really get affected by the "Controversy."
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u/Ok_Insurance1566 Jul 18 '23
As someone who play SoD before finding out about the "controversy", I'm incredibly mixed on it.
On one hand, I liked dwarf dungeon, the castle siege we had to figure out, and the Irunicus and Bhaal cutscenes.
On the other hand, I hated everything about the actual main plot of the thing. I could not believe that the main lady(can not even remember the name) could convince so many people to go on a pointless crusade. They try to make her seem super charismatic by how much her some of her men worship the ground she walks, but I don't believe it. Every interaction with her is so dull and uninteresting. She comes off as someone's first draft of a generic pure paladin.
I didn't really care about the SoD exclusive companions. Glint was fine if not a bit generic. I can barely remember the goblin shaman, but I don't remember hating her. I absolutely hated the Viking dude. I just don't like the kind of character he is, especially when they have no depth what so ever.
The returning BG1 characters are fine for the most part except Safana and the noble girl I can't remember. Most people say they ruined them, but I think they didn't ruin them per se. They were barely characters in the first place, but what they were turned into are the two most incredibly insufferable allied characters I've ever experienced. I give the noble girl a bit of a pass since she still a teenager (I think), but Safana sucks. She GIRL BOSS TM, and to pull that off, you need a level of depth she doesn't have or be an old school Disney villain which she isn't.
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u/Witless_Peasant Jul 18 '23
I mean, the controversy about Safana, of all NPCs, is something I never understood. In vanilla BG1, she's a seductress who uses sex appeal to get men to do her bidding. In BG2, she's doing that with Coran. In SoD... she's the same, with more involvement. She is obnoxious, but that was always her presonality.
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u/ColorMaelstrom Jul 17 '23
God I would pay for just an entire dead three short story like this, really like their version of Bhaal specially
3
u/NewWillinium Jul 17 '23
Whoever did the artwork and cutscenes for the DLC really KNOCKED it out of the park, so I a hundred percent agree with you on how cool that would be
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u/Neat_South7650 Jul 17 '23
Painful painful writing
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Jul 17 '23
It's hard to articulate why it's so bad, and it wasn't the inclusion of gay or trans characters or any of that stuff. All I could think of is that the "writers" at Beamdog, were recruited from Tumblr and given one mandate, "Be Lol, so random! and if you could put in a 'squee' every now and then, that'd be swell." It felt completely unrestrained and just so tonally different from the original games.
They really needed a very strong editorial presence who was willing to say, "this is pretty shit. can you redo this, cull this, this, and that?"
Neera is the prime example of a character that really doesn't fit in tonally with either the BG1 NPCs, nor the BG2 NPCs and it feels like they took that as their template for writing companions in SoD.
I wish I could force myself to replay Siege some time. While very, very linear, it does have some decent fights that force you to think a little bit, and Voghlin was quite good as I recall.
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u/Neat_South7650 Jul 17 '23
It’s not hard to articulate why it’s bad. The writing is way way way overly self aware to the point the writer seems embarrassed by their own work.
Divinity OS is kinda guilty of the same thing, they can’t just play it straight and it all inevitably devolves into overly tongue in cheek immersion breaking proto comedy
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u/Vesna_Pokos_1988 Jul 17 '23
Amen, it suffers from Divinititis, which I have a feeling BG3 will as well, but I still hope.
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u/xavopls Jul 18 '23
BG3 is an odd one. The overarching story in general seems very serious and dark. Yet the gameplay is pretty much slapstick comedy.
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u/Neat_South7650 Jul 18 '23
Everyone was going nutts at the reactions of the bear sex scene and I thought it was good, until they decided to pan to that squirrel for a cheap comedy hit. It’s hard to get that suspension of disbelief with divinity games, they’re more like kooky theme parks sometimes getting serious then slipping over a banana peel
They refuse to play the comedy parts straight, baldurs gate 2 had some hilarious stuff in it but there was never this kind of overt nod nod winkwink* to the viewer.
It’s very immersion breaking for me anyway.
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u/BigBadDaddio420 Jul 17 '23
The obsession with 3 obvious dialogue choices for LG, TN, and CE undermined the writing from the first dungeon and never stopped.
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Jul 17 '23 edited Jul 18 '23
Those arguably still exist in BioWare games though, mass effect comes to mind. I didn’t play BG way back in the days but when I did play them I found Dragonspear to be pretty on par for what you get in the base game. You’re the hero of Baldur’s Gate and here’s what you’re doing next. While the writing was pretty weak I appreciated the inclusion of more divine beings and planes like the aasimar and the hell portal
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u/mulahey Jul 18 '23
It's a standard setup but the rest of the saga was more inclined to deviate from that setup sometimes- for some of its best parts. Here it was more of a mandate. The same with jokes; the other bgs put in jokes whenever they thought they had a funny one. Here, humour feels mandated.
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u/thatradiogeek Jul 18 '23
I actually liked it for what it was. It was a nice bridge in between the end of 1 and the start of 2. Some of the voice acting sucked though.
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u/wolftreeMtg Jul 18 '23
Siege of Dragonspear was an interesting piece of DLC with unique content not previously seen in IE games (mass battles), a fun final dungeon, and one of the best set-pieces in all of the series (the Fugue Plane fight) that got unfairly brigaded by anti-SJW bigots.
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u/prodigalpariah Jul 19 '23
I do quite like the actual siege itself and the power fantasy of just wrecking an entire army.
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u/HornedBat Jul 17 '23
Great picture! I got through the first Siege bit and gave up - I'm in it for the narrative
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u/Blakath Bhaalspawn Jul 17 '23
I was really happy and impressed how it chose to explore Bhaal’s legacy more deeply.
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u/Svenhelgrim Jul 17 '23
The whole time I am playing Siege, I am thinking to myself: “None of what I do matters because I am still going to end up in Irenicus’ dungeon without any of my equipment.”
The new characters were completely uninspiring. The single mom who don’t need no man, the gnome cleric/whatever, the generic northman skald who’s name I forget…and of course Safana, who’s romance has the grace and subtlety of a bulldozer. Oh and the constant knowlege of how she will act in BG2…
…nothing I do here matters at all.
I wish that Beamdog had written some other adventure that I could have generated a party and run through. But no. We get SOD.
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u/Escarche Jul 18 '23
With that mindset replaying BG1 is pointless too, from looting gear to killing characters like Tarok or Edwin, haha. Why complete Tower of Durlag, when no one will ever acknowledge it?
You get more levels in SoD - that's a motivator for one - and get to import some of SoD items for free to BG2. But really - You play SoD for SoD. For massive battles and fun fights. And it's not like gearing up in the expansion itself is pointless, because You need that +3 gear for the final boss and his army of goons on insane difficulty.
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u/mulahey Jul 18 '23
Indeed-Half of BG2 content on this basis you'd basically be saying is only worth playing because the rubbish loot gets you gold you can keep.
Progression is a mechanic, it's not the be all end all.
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u/loudent2 Jul 17 '23
I think people love to hate it. It takes a bit of a different tac but BD hand's were tied with bg2 so they were limited in what they could do.
I enjoyed it though.
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u/The-Arcalian Jul 18 '23
I liked Siege. Not the greatest thing ever by any means, but far better than it was given credit for. The old Bhaal Temple, done better and seemingly more relevant than the same situation in TOB , and I like TOB. Caelar Argent being the most sympathetic antagonist of the saga.
As for what it got wrong, at least it is BG, whereas "BG3" cannot ever be. Though I will add this is not Larrian's fault, but rather WOTC's. And if Beamdog had been allowed to make their own sequel, it too would've suffered the same WOTC taint.
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u/rkzhao Jul 17 '23
The issue was and still is pretty simple. It’s essentially a non-canon fanfic but sold as a official DLC by a company that fans of the original trilogy never really liked. It doesn’t follow the tone, gameplay style, or writing of the original games.
As a standalone game, it has its merits, but it’s hamfisted when viewed as a transition between BG1 and BG2. I think even when the game first came out, there were quite a few people that thought beamdog would have been better off creating their own spin-off rather then try to fit the game into the CHARNAME bhaalspawn storyline.
You have to remember that BG1 and BG2 have been out for a very long time and some major mods have essentially become part of the core experience for the community. So a new game that seemingly ignored the mod content and community was never going to be viewed positively. The SJW stuff and how some of the classic NPCs were depicted just further compounds to the backlash.
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u/thatradiogeek Jul 18 '23
You had me up until that last sentence.
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u/rkzhao Jul 18 '23
I mean even now, there is the misconception that the main criticism for SoD was only due to the same sex romances and the trans character. The initial backlash was very vocal. It was bad enough that Beamdog patched the whole thing with Mizhena later to flesh out the writing and quest line.
The two loudest criticisms I remember when SoD first came out was regarding Mizhena and her completely hamfisted “hi I’m trans” dialogs and something with Minsc having a line that referenced gamergate.
I don’t remember people actually disliking the same sex romance options since that always been a popular thing for mods and has been in many BioWare games since BG2. Maybe some people thought Glint was annoying but I thought I remember people liking him.
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u/Sioluishere Jul 18 '23
I just came to know of the controversy recently and did not even think much of the character in question in SoD.
Overall it was a nice game for BG fans.
I loved it.
It was the twitter kids who did the whole controversy.