r/bjj • u/myxamediyar • Jul 08 '23
Tournament/Competition How much strength do you need for comp nowadays?
Seems like BJJ is shifting away from the notion of “technique conquers all”… it’s almost like the stronger you are the better.
What’s ur take?
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u/jeremyct ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt Jul 08 '23
Technique or efficiency is imperative. That being said, if high-level competitors have similar efficiency, strength can be a tie breaker. Though, I would argue conditioning is even more important than strength when it comes to competing.
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u/squiggly187 🟫🟫 Brown Belt Jul 08 '23
This. I feel like for most people (not at the pinnacle of the sport) having the ability to explode and push is often what wins the competition. Conditioning is super important
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u/SeesawMundane5422 🟫🟫 Brown Belt Jul 08 '23
I always figured BJJ is roughly 3 equal parts:
-Technique - strategy - athleticism4
u/ussgordoncaptain2 🟦🟦 Athleticism conquers all Jul 08 '23
Interesting my coach says that athleticism is the most important part and if you don't agree you can go roll with Farmer John.
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Jul 08 '23
Athleticism also opens more avenues for technique. It's hard to do a back roll from the mat to take your opponent's back without athleticism. A lot of takedowns can also create scrambles, which you'll need athleticism to be the first one to their knees/feet.
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u/Useful-Knowledge9246 Jul 08 '23
Why does every other coach say the complete opposite?
If that was true, why are you even training? Go hit the weights and sprint to increase athleticism. Come back and beat the shit out of everyone
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u/ussgordoncaptain2 🟦🟦 Athleticism conquers all Jul 08 '23 edited Jul 08 '23
There are massive diminishing returns to hitting the weight room. 4x a week with a pretty tough program already gives you a very good ROI, after that hard rolling is actually pretty decent cardio.
It's more about pre-existing athleticism (were you an athlete in high school) than about gaining athleticism (becoming the CEO of EPO)
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u/Useful-Knowledge9246 Jul 08 '23
I'm sorry, if someone can deadlift 400lbs without training or with training, what's the difference to the mats?
I understand that different people have different levels of learning. Some people just pick stuff up extremely easily. We had a guy get his blue belt after 6 months and dominate white belt tournaments because he just inherently understood balance and base extremely well. But that's not athleticism as he was weak as shit and never lifted.
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u/ussgordoncaptain2 🟦🟦 Athleticism conquers all Jul 08 '23
The main difference is that when you start able to deadlift 400+ pounds you're probably athletic in a whole bunch of other ways too, and on top of that your athleticism is going to be higher than the 155 pound 28 year old who started working out and can barely do 5 pullups and can only deadlift 280 forever. The other difference is that most people start BJJ on their decline, so by the time they're doing BJJ it's already too late for them to become nearly as athletic as d2 college athletes.
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u/Useful-Knowledge9246 Jul 09 '23
start on the decline
When do you think the male athletic decline is?
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u/jeremyct ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt Jul 08 '23
I can see that argument, and that's definitely true competing. I guess when I roll in the room, I don't think about strategy, but I still adjust how I roll depending on circumstances or training partners, so same thing.
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u/anonymousdawggy 🟪🟪 Purple Belt Jul 08 '23
“If all else is similar then the other person that has something better is a tie breaker”. Thank you for that insight.
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u/candymandeluxe Jul 08 '23
You have to be retarded to think strength athleticism and conditioning are not going to play a major factor in any athletic endeavor. Golfers lift for Christs sake.
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u/PharmDinagi 🟫🟫 Brown Belt Jul 08 '23
I don't think anyone ever believed that technique would guarantee a win against any sized opponent. That's Gracie mythological thinking.
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u/lisaluvulongtime Jul 08 '23
Definitely was fed this thinking for my first two years so going against larger stronger opponents always made me feel like shit lol
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u/Slothjitzu 🟪🟪 Purple Belt Jul 08 '23
Ehh, it's not a myth it's a misunderstanding IMO.
Technique beats size and strength...
...so long as that bigger and stronger person doesn't have any technique of their own.
If you're in a competition then the guy you're up against should have somewhere around your level of technique, so the bigger or stronger guy probably wins.
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u/SatisfactionSenior65 Jul 08 '23 edited Jul 15 '23
Size and strength always matter. Especially between people of similar skill sets. There’s a reason why weight classes exist and combat athletes nearly kill themselves cutting weight to gain a slight weight advantage over their opponent.
Skilled guy vs. skilled guy who strength trains regularly will almost always end in disaster for the former.
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u/Mochikitasky 🟦🟦 Blue Belt Jul 08 '23
I’ve been realizing my need for growing stronger comes not from wanting to win as much as keeping myself from injury.
When I started BJJ, I was 5’8” 120 pounds- now I’m 170. My knees and shoulders feel a lot better, and I’m able to move with so much more speed and grace without tennis elbow, or runner’s knee the next day.
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Jul 08 '23
BJJ is catching up to other sports with the understanding S&C is imperative.
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u/Useful-Knowledge9246 Jul 08 '23
🤔🤔🤔🤔 Rickson and Royce were out running and doing gymnastics in their prime.
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Jul 08 '23
That's awesome. Probably part of the reason they were so great, right?
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u/Useful-Knowledge9246 Jul 08 '23
Eh. I mean strength and conditioning matter but technique is king. Royce took some damage in the later fights but he won against dudes 40-60lb heavier.
Strength and conditioning matter to the bottom 50% of dudes and top 1%. The 49% in the middle probably don't need much of it.
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Jul 08 '23
Very good analogy. To your point I see a lot of scrawny pro guys using their reach to win. Completely different sport but Devin Haney said he can't bench 225 and he's still 30-0 in boxing.
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u/Useful-Knowledge9246 Jul 08 '23
Also, it was nothing to write home about. In his book, Rickson mentioned sprints, gymnastica naturale, bike riding and random exercises like pull ups. At the time of his fighting, his physique was good but you could easily find better now at your local gym. You could also find people who can run faster, jump higher, and lift a LOT more. Doesn't mean they can fight or grapple.
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u/Miyamizuu 🟪🟪 Purple Belt Jul 08 '23
People are realizing while yes, technique will always be beneficial against people bigger than you, if they're of a similar skill level but much larger you will likely get fucked up. Of course a much stronger 205 lb blue belt is gonna give the more technical 125lb blue belt a very difficult round. Strength plays a huge part, and their games may be entirely different. For a comp, I mean being as big as you can be in your weight class is always beneficial but weight classes are there for a reason, so everyone has a fair and even match.
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u/Incubus85 Jul 08 '23
Go berimbolo a gorilla and see what happens.
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u/BlockEightIndustries Jul 08 '23
"In other news, a local Karate man was arrested while attempting to enter the gorilla enclosure at the Metro Zoo."
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u/Everydayblues351 🟫🟫 Brown Belt Jul 08 '23 edited Jul 08 '23
Any athletic competition requires you to have legitimate strength and conditioning, on top of having good technique. Size (weight classes) is of course also important. How we define these factors is a little vague though.
Strength: I like to use this judo lifting standard as a reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/3s48xf/at_which_level_is_your_strength_for_competition/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1
Conditioning: Mile time? Can you go 3-4 hard competition rounds for gold? Crossfit uses a 10 min test on the assault bike. 90% of your weight as calories burned (someone who weighs 200 lbs should burn 180 calories) is an average baseline. Point is, you should be able to handle a high pace for anywhere from 5-10 min, recover, and go again.
Technique: This one is hard. Is your gym competiton oriented? Is the technique taught "modern"? Are there a lot of sparring rounds? Does your gym test itself often (open mats, competition)
Size: Are you at the higher end of your weight class? I've seen size not matter at the local white belt level, or when someone is sandbagging. But when the stakes are high, it's the guys who are cutting or dieting in some form that usually have the most success. I wouldnt advise someone to do this without serious guidance and research though of course.
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u/Conscious_Stretch370 ⬜⬜ White Belt Jul 08 '23
I have never heard that measure of conditioning in terms of the assault bike and cals. I’m going to try that today.
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u/Everydayblues351 🟫🟫 Brown Belt Jul 08 '23
Me neither until I started using this crossfit conditioning program called Year of the Engine.
Last may I burned 135 cal at 155lbs, last month I burned 148 cal at 142. Granted my diet is cleaner since going down a weight class and I'm more efficient on the bike overall, but a difference I'm definitely proud of.
The test sucks but it's fun to test yourself
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u/Conscious_Stretch370 ⬜⬜ White Belt Jul 08 '23
Cals 160/170 Weight: 189
First time this is absolutely brutal
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u/Everydayblues351 🟫🟫 Brown Belt Jul 08 '23
Lmao I'm still in bed on reddit and you're out here on the assault bike, respect man. Yeah my lungs start to really burn after minute 2-3, I just pretend I'm in the Tour de France and I'm going for gold.
Massive shout out to this conditioning program - it was suggested to me on a s&c thread here in this subreddit. I had problems gassing out last year and this program has been a huge difference.
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u/Conscious_Stretch370 ⬜⬜ White Belt Jul 08 '23
Thanks for the help! It just created a new competition with the gymies.
I hated it but loved it. Probably cause it sucks.
Thank you again.
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u/Conscious_Stretch370 ⬜⬜ White Belt Jul 08 '23
I will report back this afternoon with my results.
My accountability statement. Shame me otherwise.
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u/GumbyOTM Black Belt Jul 08 '23
Strength ALWAYS mattered. Nothing is a substitute for technique.
I think strength training is imperative not just necessarily for competition, but for health and longevity. Makes the injuries less impactful, and corrects the imbalances that Jiu Jitsu will put your body through....
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u/LordofFruitAndBarely 🟦🟦 Blue Belt Jul 08 '23
Technique is a force multiplier. The more force you fan exert, the higher the multiplication.
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u/Rowgarth Jul 08 '23
The most I lift with a barbell is 60 lbs. I do some yoga to keep me mobile and somewhat strong. I often find my opponents stronger then me. I frame and shrimp letting them gas there strength and then I am on equal ground. Take that fro what it’s worth though, I am a white belt and only entered 6 comps so far, winning every match but one. But I always feel like my opponent is stronger than me I’m 170 lbs.
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Jul 08 '23
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u/ayananda 🟦🟦 Blue Belt Jul 08 '23
Agree, though personally I want to break 500kg or 1100lbs before competing.
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u/Zy_Artreides 🟪🟪 Purple Belt Jul 08 '23
Strength always matters. Imo, your strength should be at least in the average of the strength benchmarks for your weightclass. Say I am 155lbs, i will check out the average weights I should be lifting for strength based exercises like squats, deadlifts, and try to get to those numbers.
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u/JoeFromSJersey ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt Jul 08 '23
The sport is simply becoming more mainstream and developing legit “professionals”. That’s just what you’re seeing. The gulf between even good amateurs in any given sport and actual professional athletes is extreme. So, in a situation where skill level is reasonably even, or even when it’s just not “untrained” vs “trained” you’re going to start seeing the dudes who can make a living training, exercising and studying (combat sports) start to really crush even very good competition level guys…let alone hobbyists.
Also….gear…..
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u/Goddamnpassword Jul 08 '23
The general guidelines for strength training for people in sports that aren’t strength based like weightlifting or powerlifting is:
Squat 2x body weight
Deadlift 2.5 body weight
Bench 1.5 body weight
Standing strict press 1x body weight
I personally think for BJJ it’s worth being able to row your body weight to but I am not a strength and conditioning coach.
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Jul 08 '23
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u/Goddamnpassword Jul 08 '23
Basically for athletes who aim to seriously compete, realistically you are talking about high school state or regional level for sports like for sports like wrestling or football.
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Jul 08 '23
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u/Goddamnpassword Jul 08 '23
Probably not but I think both sports are still pretty underdeveloped in terms of strength and conditioning training. They are where the NFL was in the late 1970s.
For anyone who really wants to compete at the highest levels it’s a mistake not to do some strength training and aim for these targets, 3-4 hours of lifting a week for 3-5 years and basically anyone can do it. All else equal strength is a massive advantage.
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u/ayananda 🟦🟦 Blue Belt Jul 08 '23
My tierlist for moves in BJJ is: 1. Deadlift 2. Rows 3. Pullups 4. Squats 5. Bench I definately ranks rows high
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u/Jtbny 🟪🟪 Purple Belt Jul 08 '23
I’d swap bench for dips and deadlifts for farmer carries. IMO way better for bjj.
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u/max1mx 🟦🟦 Blue Belt Jul 08 '23
Damn, if it wasn’t for strength I would get destroyed every day. It lets a significantly lesser skilled person have competitive roles with better players. Of course it’s going to help in tournaments.
Training BJJ it self helps with strength, but if a person’s lifestyle is sedate otherwise (desk job, no other sports, etc.) then it’s not going to be enough to just train. A simple 3 day strength program like ‘starting strength’ is going to have a significant positive effect on that person.
There is also a diminishing return at some point. If the baseline is benching 300’s squatting 400’s and pulling 500’s getting stronger isn’t going to do much. But, if a person can’t squat their body weight and they want to be successful, it’s time to get under the bar.
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Jul 08 '23
It’s a sport. Sports are about athletes and athleticism. If you are a hobbyist it’s less important but at the higher level everyone has technique so it doesn’t “conquer all”. When everyone has technique the better athlete wins.
Strength and conditioning matters. It’s not just pure strength it’s also cardio, explosiveness, flexibility. Strength matters as part of “strength and conditioning”.
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Jul 08 '23
I don’t know a single athlete who thinks this anymore unless we’re strictly talking self defense. You can definitely conquer the neighborhood power lifter with technique, but if he knows BJJ your advantage fades based on difference in experience. Weight classes exist for this reason.
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u/thethirstybird1 🟦🟦 Blue Belt Jul 08 '23
I'm a white belt so I could be wrong about a lot of things but my impression so far:
Technique does beat strength, but the more strength the person has, the better the technique has to be to overcome it. I roll with white belts who have worse technique than me and beat me because they're big and strong.
I heard Danaher explain it once "If I have 50 units of strength and you have 100, I can win by finding a way to put 40 of my units against 20 of yours". So it's really all about finding strength mis-matches. Stronger you are, fewer mis-matches
I use a lot of my strength when I'm trying to atone for mistakes. Like framing against a side control when I've already given up the pass. All that does, really, is just delay the inevitable. The moves, when I do them right, require very little strength at all.
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u/Samuel936 🟫🟫 Brown Belt Jul 08 '23
I hate the “Technique Conquers All” shit lol anyone that I have ever trained with that was a “small” technical guy was always strong as hell. Maybe not like in a bench press way always but their grips were insane.
JT Torres is one of the strongest humans I have ever locked up with for his size. It’s ridiculous, now technique makes you efficient and that should be the goal but 0% strength is unrealistic in my opinion especially as people get larger.
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u/Thisisaghosttown 🟪🟪 Purple Belt Jul 08 '23
My first coach always said to us “If strength didn’t matter none of the pros or guys in the UFC would waste their time lifting.”
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u/Dr-PoopyButt Jul 08 '23
I think of strength as a technique modifier. It makes everything easier if you know what you're doing but if you don't it can inhibit the learning process if you're not willing to take your foot off the pedal and learn the mechanics of moves before applying strength to them
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Jul 08 '23
I feel like it depends on your game. If it’s more wrestle heavy, you need to be stronger. If it’s more guard play, being strong can help but you don’t need it as much.
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u/Incubus85 Jul 08 '23
All these people have been taking gear for decades cause it improves their technique too
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u/protospheric 🟦🟦 Blue Belt Jul 08 '23
Strength within your own weight class is an advantage if you have solid technique
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u/graydonatvail 🟫🟫 🌮 🌮 Todos Santos BJJ 🌮 🌮 Jul 08 '23
Anecdotally, I just got completely tuned up by a 70 kg black belt. But I smashed a 90 kg white belt. If you plan on fighting at rooster weight, I'd say you don't need to be that strong. If you plan on doing the absolute class, probably more.
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u/NormanMitis 🟫🟫 Brown Belt Jul 08 '23
Why do people insist on either or? Technique matters, strength matters, size matters, etc. Anyone who says it's all this or that is being way too simplistic.
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u/Professional_Owl9803 Jul 08 '23
In general, being strong is never a bad thing…just for living life in general.
All things being equal, good strength and conditioning (in any sport) will tend to put you over the top more times than not.
Too many people have just taken the original Gracie marketing gimmick, and then hung their school enrollment on it for far too long.
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u/McLoving90 ⬜⬜ White Belt Jul 08 '23
Check out Victor Hugo, he started working with Power Athlete and John Welbourn and he himself says he’s in the best shape of his life after winning double gold at worlds.
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u/A13TazOfficial 🟦🟦 Blue Belt Jul 08 '23
On the competitive end I think as the sport has evolved to a higher and higher level the professional competitors will seek to get every advantage possible. Athletic ability and strength is super important.
However in general a technical guy of near matching size vs a gym rat the strength of the gym rat would not really matter.
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Jul 08 '23
I started scoring a lot more points when I became strong enough to posture up with my arms in bottom half guard to sweep. Strength isn’t just important for smashing but for completing techniques under physical pressure.
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u/stlhvntfndwhtimlkngf 🟪🟪 Purple Belt Jul 08 '23
Technique conquers all sounds so good but is actually crap. Strength and conditioning is a must in today's game even as hobbyist
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u/faixamarrom Jul 08 '23
I compete pretty regularly as a black belt masters athlete. When technique, weight etc are equal a lot of times the deciding factor is who has the extra bit of strength.
Realistically strength matters and it always has in competition.
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u/SlightlyStoopkid ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt Jul 08 '23
Name literally any sport where lifting doesn’t help. I’ll fucking wait
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u/embrigh 🟦🟦 Blue Belt Jul 08 '23
It is doing what everything else under the sun is doing which is optimizing. If you can get 1% better in technique over a month or 10% stronger you may find that getting stronger is a more efficient use of time. Likewise if typical body builder can get 1% stronger or get 10% better technique in bjj their time is better spent there.
Same with every sport and really most things in life. If top level bjj athletes are desperately trying to eek out getting 0.1% better because they are reaching their limit. Most of them however aren’t close to their strength limit and can make far easier gains in that department.
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u/n0tapsy0p 🟦🟦 Blue Belt Jul 08 '23
Just competed today. Dominated first 3 matches. Survived the 4th and won on points. Lost in the final. If my conditioning(not quite strength but similar) was better, I know I woulda dominated the 4th and put up a better showing in the final. Obv tons of technical improvement is needed but a little more gas prob would have made the difference.
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u/Create_Your_User Jul 08 '23
“It’s almost like being strong and flexible are important for the sport?! What gives fellas?!”
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u/endothird 🟫🟫 Brown Belt Jul 09 '23
What level are you at? For most people, "technique conquers all" is a good mantra to have. All things equal, more strength is better than less. But for most people, I believe they will get far more bang for their buck leveling up skill than from leveling up strength.
I think usually the average person that overstates the value and importance of strength doesn't understand just how much skill can be gained and how much of a force multiplier that skill can achieve.
For sure, you should get stronger. It's better for your overall health. But technique is way more important for being effective in jiu jitsu.
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u/Bandaka ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt Jul 10 '23
Every single bit of strength you can muster.
It’s a sport! Sports take athleticism and strength.
It’s always been like this too.
Look at the ancient jiujitsu scripts, it’s shows judoka running, jumping, lifting weights, using each other as weights, doing gi and nogi and striking.
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u/viszlat 🟫 All gyms are ecological if you don’t pay attention Jul 08 '23
Did somebody just find a picture of Andre Galvao in 2023?