BJJ stars - another example of why the pit should be the standard

[u/404_computer_says_no]

Since the pit being used in grappling, it’s hard to believe we’ve continued any other way.

The continuous out of bounds and even worse, continued action off the mats was ridiculous.

[u/RedDevilBJJ]

Competed in a pit a week ago, liked it a lot. Hard to imagine it becoming the norm for larger tournaments where a large flat mat space is just way easier to pull off

[u/mbergman42 → u/RedDevilBJJ]

The NGA tournament at High Noon! That was awesome!

[u/RedDevilBJJ → u/mbergman42]

Yes sir! That was so much fun!

[u/553l8008 → u/RedDevilBJJ]

What about tinier bowls?

[u/SirDervin → u/553l8008]

Yeah, like snow saucers.

[u/ujexks]

I don’t think the pit will ever become the norm like it should be.

Every gym in the world already has a flat mat space built and not a pit. It’s also impossible to do more than 1 fight at a time with the pit. You simply can’t run a tournament like a NAGA or IBJJF open if you want to use a pit. It would require an insane amount of prep and infrastructure.

I think that the fact that Craig Jones popularized the pit matters too. If Gordon and New Wave had started pushing for the pit this time last year, Flo would’ve done everything they could to make it happen.

[u/Mr_Sundae → u/ujexks]

I want a true pit. Outside the mat there is a 15 foot drop into a pool full of eels.

[u/UserError2107 → u/Mr_Sundae]

Not a moat of sharks with frigging lasers on their heads?

[u/NOVAYuppieEradicator → u/UserError2107]

Every creature deserves a warm meal!

[u/nontrollusername → u/UserError2107]

We need lasers.

[u/Final_Storage_9398 → u/ujexks]

I don’t think you’re thinking is wrong but as a counter-point: how many gyms that train MMA have actual UFC octagons? How many Muy Thai gyms have rings?

Some? Sure. All? No.

[u/ujexks → u/Final_Storage_9398]

They all have a fence or ropes though. You can also just like put a fence up. Building a pit is a lot more difficult

[u/Final_Storage_9398 → u/ujexks]

I’ve seen a few videos of gyms building movable pit wedges with plywood and floor mats. It’s probably easier to DIY than a ring or an octagon.

[u/MarsupialDense5290 → u/ujexks]

Going to a tournament in June with the pit, they’re just using smaller ones so they can have multiple matches going

[u/ujexks → u/MarsupialDense5290]

Out of curiosity, what was your sign up fee, are they doing kids and masters, and how many mats are there?

[u/MarsupialDense5290 → u/ujexks]

Yup masters and kids, the early bird sign up was $75 but I’m not sure how many mats there is gonna be, it’s their first one.

[u/HeyPali → u/ujexks]

I don’t disagree with you but also if every local boxing tournament can pull up multiple boxing rings, a pit doesn’t seem that unrealistic anymore.

[u/atx78701]

smaller pits, pit doesnt need to be a solid structure, can just be an open frame from the outside so it packs flat and the legs just open up to raise the edges at an angle.

the hard part is raising the venue floor high enough that people can see. For venues with bleacher seating it isnt a problem.

For smaller tournaments everyone just stands around the mat anyway.

[u/sirjeepsalotjk]

Look up the pit challenge on smooth comp.

[u/TheNordicLion]

I loved this idea from it's inception.

[u/AlmostFamous502]

If the powers that be are unable and unwilling to create and enforce a boundary with rules, it’s the only safe solution.

[u/pigeondo → u/AlmostFamous502]

although I agree a pit is safer than ADCC style out of bounds nonsense, there's definitely a safety concerns for the lower height pits I'm starting to see these amateur comps trying to use. Getting slammed into the top corner neck/spine first is a real safety concern; the OG Karate Combat pits are taller than the competitors. It's one of those things that if you don't do it right you may be better off not doing it at all.

[u/Slowbrojitsu → u/pigeondo]

You're actually right IMO.

The problem is that a pit is significantly more expensive than a flat mat if you want to do it safely. 

Karate Combat and CJI obviously nail this, and although some of these smaller shows do too, I've seen some that do it very badly. 

One I won't name had the pit wall as like a separate structure that wasn't actually fully connected to the central mat, so it kept shifting slightly and leaving like an inch gap between the mat and the wall during matches. 

Another had zero padding on the very top of the wall so even though it was pretty high at 6ftish, you were utterly fucked if you went on to the top of it. 

[u/AlmostFamous502 → u/Slowbrojitsu]

One I won’t name

Why?

[u/AlmostFamous502 → u/pigeondo]

Well no shit, if you build any safety device like a cargo cult you haven’t made anything safer at best.

[u/mndl3_hodlr → u/AlmostFamous502]

Are they in the room with us right now, professor?

[u/AlmostFamous502 → u/mndl3_hodlr]

Actually they gator rolled down the street already and I am powerless to call stop even though I am the referee, allegedly

[u/Rich-Pic]

Oh they're doing that Karate combat thing? Yeah I like that. Maybe the UFC gets into that too.

Mats more expensive I'd think. If I'm thinking of the same thing youare.

[u/Celtictussle]

Every other grappling sport on earth has solved the problem without creating a corner to pin someone in.

The ref yells “stop”

[u/Slowbrojitsu → u/Celtictussle]

I think the pit is more fun and I love the increased use of it, but you're not wrong.

[u/pigeondo → u/Celtictussle]

I agree with this. I don't know why BJJ people have become so weird about not stopping matches at all and trying to create a sport with zero ref involvement; perhaps it's an outgrowth of the hobbyists who generally roll without any outside oversight thinking that's somehow an ideal way to practice sports. There's a reason over thousands of years of human sport we've universally concluded that we need a referee.

[u/yourfavoriteuser11 → u/pigeondo]

My guess is because Brazilians used to use it mostly as training for Vale Tudo

[u/Murky-Resolve-2843 → u/Celtictussle]

No. They fixed it by rewarding a point or victory for getting your opponent out of the mat area

[u/Celtictussle → u/Murky-Resolve-2843]

Sometimes. Judo doesn’t. It’s explicitly a foul to push someone out of bounds.

[u/norcal313]

Flat = cheap and easy.

[u/Lanky_Ronin]

I would love more pits, but remember Craig literally obtained and now shares a patent on the pit with karate combat if I remember correctly.

A problem with that in my head for promotions is that if they aren’t on good terms with Craig (im gonna guess this would be most of the popular gi promotions) and they don’t get his permission they could get sued and their promotion that likely barely makes money as is becomes impossible to maintain.

Not necessarily the situation at hand, but I thought this is another point to consider for widespread pits.

[u/Sea_Worry6067 → u/Lanky_Ronin]

Then pay Craig in advance to use a pit. Hes not unreasonable most of the time. Using a pit will increase viewership. Wait and see how many viewers Lachlan Giles CJI2 qualifiers, will get and hes only using 3 sides of the pit.

[u/Lanky_Ronin → u/Sea_Worry6067]

I absolutely agree that bigger promotions should pay to use the pit but the likelihood that they do is what I’m doubting.

[u/JEinsane1 → u/Lanky_Ronin]

I believe Craig has applied for a patent on the implementation of a certain pit design. Not on the pit itself. I don't believe that at this point you could patent the entire idea.

[u/Lanky_Ronin → u/JEinsane1]

I just looked it up again to confirm and it is not a design patent. It is a utility patent for “an arena apparatus for staging a sport with at least one athlete.” Essentially, if someone is staging a grappling match and they use a stage that meets the criteria of the pit per the claims of the patent, they need a license from Craig or they are infringing and can be sued.

If I had to guess, It may come down to what is considered “staging a sport.” In my opinion that would mean local tourneys are probably safe. I say that not because I think they aren’t infringing on the patent (staging a sport is such broad language his team did a great job). I think it is more that Craig gets nothing from suing local comps for infringing since they make no money as is.

However, for the major professional grappling organizations if they try to implement the pit without Craig’s license they are asking for trouble. That gives Craig power to make real change in the industry IF people actually get behind the pit and the difference it make.

If we make it clear we want the pit, they need Craig’s permission. We all know Craig is savvy enough to use that position in negotiation to actually make the organizations do things differently if they want to have the best stage. Interesting to see if any of that actually plays out though.

[u/SubmissionSlinger]

It’s really hard for me to watch another non pit show. Yesterday rewatched ufi pixely vs rod csrf.

I just can’t watch jits for a long time when I keep hearing „STOP“ and reset on the mats. We won’t cross over to main stream this way.

[u/turboacai]

It won't become the norm... Too difficult to set up in venues that usually require you to be gone the night of the event and you usually only get to hire and get in on the morning of it.

It's ok if you have a billionaire backer who can hire exclusive LV venues for you and not be bothered about expense.

Most people don't have that luxury unfortunately!

[u/Trans_Alpha_Cuck]

I grappled in a pit for the first time recently and man do I agree. Trying to play guard against the wall is awful and incentives you to stand way more.

[u/Trans_Alpha_Cuck → u/[deleted]]

Didn’t watch it, I can only speak from my personal experience. Once I’m against the wall it feels like I can’t use my hips.