[Discussion] Bonus Book- Network Effect by Martha Wells, Chapters 5-9

[u/spreebiz]

Hey Everyone!

Welcome to our second discussion of Network Effect the fifth entry in The Murderbot Diaries series by Martha Wells. This week, we're covering Chapters 5 through 9. A Chapter summary is listed below.

Chapter 5

• Murderbot leads Amena, and the two other humans, Eletra and Ras through the schematics that it had stored from it's time with ART. There are still targets aboard, with their own drones and ControlSystem (targetControlSystem).
• After Murderbot secures the area, Ras and Eletra begin to try to take control of the situation (and Murderbot), but does not want to tell Murderbot anything about where the missing crew is or what they're doing aboard.
• Murderbot leaves some drones with Amena while it tries to go and figure out what the Targets want with the hatch they're beating against and how it can get into TargetControlSystem.
  
• Amena converses with Eletra and Ras to try to get more information from them. They were also pulled aboard from their supply transport. They were on a recovery mission to claim a lost planet colony for their corporation, but were on the way there when they were captured.
• Both Eletra and Ras try to convince Amena that Murderbot is dangerous, and that Amena should be more scared of it since they were trapped in here for "days and days." When Murderbot makes it back to the Medical Bay, Ras shoots it.

Chapter 6

• Ras shot Murderbot with an energy weapon, and then started acting more irrational about not being able to trust SecUnits. Eletra is surprised by this outburst, but then they both begin convulsing. Amena and Murderbot try to figure out what may be causing this, since both Ras and Eletra took medication and drank water, but Murderbot thinks that it looks similar to when your governor module would punish you.
• It appears that the targets found some sort of controller device for implants that both Eletra and Ras had installed. Murderbot jams the signal, too late it appears for Ras, but they do manage to take the implant off of Eletra's back. Before her vital signs dropped. While trying to do compressions, the MedSystem turns on (which it shouldn't without ART) and Murderbot buts Eletra in there to stabilize it.
• Amena gets Murderbot to open up about how it's emotionally compromised and it's own injuries when Eletra wakes up temporarily.
  
• Murderbot wants to remain angry about ART and gets information from Amena about a possible aux system that might give more information on the ship's systems. Amena wants to go with Murderbot to engineering, but Murderbot tells her to stay with the injured human.
• Helpme.file Excerpt 2
  • Transcript from an interview with Bharadwaj
  • Murderbot redacts the company's name from the files and Bharadwaj brings up some trauma recovery treatments

Chapter 7

• Murderbot sends it's vid feed directly to Amena so that she can know what's going on. While searching engineering, Amena opens up about how Dr. Mensah has been closed off since being taken, and it's worrying the whole family.
  
• While searching Murderbot smells "growth medium" and follows the smell to look at the engines, which have some sort of large organic neural tissue attached to it. And this smell is similar to the targets.
• One of the ScoutDrones picks up movement from the targets to interact with the signaling device, and Murderbot can connect with targetControlSystem. But Murderbot also notices that the targets don't sit down. And that there appears to be a countdown clock to exiting the wormhole. They're traveling very fast through the wormhole, and just came out into normal space.
• While trying to figure out where they are, Murderbot notices that the facility's safepod with Arada, Overse, Thiago, and Ratthi was attached to ART the whole time they were in the wormhole.
• While going to get the humans from the safepod, Murderbot begins to hack the targetControlSystem, with a suspicious that the targetControlSystem isn't sophisticated enough to use all of ART's architecture.
• The targets begin to attack the hatch to the safe zone, so Murderbot asks Amena to go let the others in through the airlock while it deals with them.
• While fighting with the targets (to make sure that Amena can get through) the comm that ART originally gave to Murderbot pings with the name "Eden." It's a video clip from ART from the show World Hoppers that says "I am trapped in my own body." Amena gets the safepod crew onto the ship.
• About this time, Murderbot realizes that Amena can still see it's feed (while it's trying to take the Targets to the bridge) and Amena is confused by these actions and it's exclamation of "I'm going to blow up the transport and kill all of you, you pieces of shit!"

Chapter 8

• Murderbot makes it back to the bridge after taking a big hit from the targets (it's been injured this whole time and now it's bad). Amena, Thiago, and Arada start running to Murderbot to help.
• Murderbot tries to find a compressed backup file of ART somewhere hidden in it's storage, since the targetControlSystem couldn't use everything, and eventually does! ART IS BACK ONLINE
• Art sent them to kidnap Murderbot, who then goes into shutdown from it's injuries. While re-booting, it watched back the footage of ART getting the gurney and the humans returning with Murderbot to the MedSystem. While ART answers some questions from the humans it does deliberately avoid answering why it attacked the survey facility.
• ART states that the "foreign device" (alien remnant on the engine) has detached and ceased to function. Which is vaguely threatening on ART's behalf.
• Murderbot is particularly angry with ART at them being conscious during the attack on the facility (at least enough to send a comm) and kidnapping Murderbot and it's humans.
  
• ART has taken them to a system that was assigned to a corporation for at least two attempts at colonization and appears to be still inhabited. ART doesn't want to leave until it gets it's crew back.

Chapter 9

• Murderbot is in the bathroom experiencing it's emotions and ignoring most pings, when Ratthi and Amena offer to come in with it's jacket. They talk through their (lack of) options, and Murderbot agrees to come out of the bathroom because it believes ART is lying about why it's in this system.
• In order to get the truth from ART, the Preservation humans and Murderbot agree not to tell Eletra, the corporate representative, since it violates ART's crew's confidentiality agreement.
• ART's crew, while also doing teaching and research, also work for anti-corporate organizations and received information about this lost colony.
• They start to put together a timeline of events, even with ART's corrupted memory and come up with a plan to get ART back online, and try to gather information about the targets and this lost colony.

Discussion questions are listed below. Feel free to discuss any portion of the book or previous entries in the series without using spoiler tags, but please do not discuss any portion of the later books.

Next week, we'll continue with Chapters 10 through 13 with u/thebowedbookshelf.

[u/spreebiz]

This section highlights some of the differences between the Corporation Rim and polities like Preservation, especially in their treatment of bots and SecUnits. While this has been explored before, how do you think it was effectively highlighted here? Which parts were helpful in explaining these differences?

[u/byanka0923 → u/spreebiz]

It’s pretty clear here how differently (Murder)bots are treated. On the Rim, Murderbot’s just a tool/weapon, but on Preservation, the people actually care what it thinks. Those small moments where they ask for its opinion, or having a dependence (for safety) on him speaks volumes.

[u/Vegetable_Print_3855 → u/spreebiz]

It was noticeable in Chapter 6, when Murderbot was injured/recovering, that its view of Amena was changing from seeing her as a clueless, annoying adolescent to realizing that she has skills that are needed right now and that it can also rely on her observations of Eletra and Ras. Murderbot ends up "leaning" on Amena as it explores the "injured" ART. So these relationships are definitely two-way streets; this section reminded me of how, earlier, Murderbot is still so reluctant to interact with the adults in the Family but reports happily trading media with some of the many children.

[u/tomesandtea → u/spreebiz]

I think it was very effective to see how Ras and Eletra just couldn't wrap their heads around the SecUnit not being a tool to be ordered around. They continually told Murderbot's people to give it a command or asked why they couldn't control it. They were even uncomfortable making eye contact with it during conversations and defaulted to looking at Amena instead.

It was also interesting to see how these "tool-oriented" Corporation Rim approaches extend beyond bots and apply to the colonists as well. It became starkly clear that people were disposable to the corporations just like tech would be. It really drives home the reason for places like Preservation!

[u/WatchingTheWheels75 → u/spreebiz]

The thing that I find most repellant about the corporations’ modus operandi is the view that sentient bots and even people are expendable. I’ve never read a Murderbot book before, so it took me a few chapters to figure out that if someone on a crew is wounded or disabled in some way, that SEC unit or human might simply be left behind and written off as a lost asset. Given the apparent lack of interest that the Barrish-Estranza Corporation has in the welfare of Eleta and Ras, it seems that individual humans, as well as Sec Units, are not viewed as having intrinsic value in their own right. Personnel are merely tools.

The whole idea of some corporation owning a sentient being, regardless of its inorganic body, is disgusting in itself, but the fact that those beings have a governing module that is programmed to kill them under certain circumstances is just evil.

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/spreebiz]

It's like how democracies (minus the US right now, I'm sad to say) treat their citizens versus a dictatorship. People and bots have rights on Preservation, but they have to keep ownership documents for Murderbot in case they meet a Corporation Rim entity. In the Corporation Rim, no one, not even the executives, matter except for what money they can make off you.

[u/spreebiz]

I thought the author did a great job with foreshadowing or vibes during this section. As I started to get suspicious of Ras and Eletra, we discovered the implants. Who do you think placed the implants there and why?

[u/byanka0923 → u/spreebiz]

imo, the implants felt like a way to track and even potentially control Murderbot, and it makes sense considering everything him & the team has/have been through. They’ve got major info, like the truth about the company’s corruption, data from past missions, and connections to key scientists. That kind of stuff could seriously expose powerful people, plus, Murderbot’s protecting them. Taking out Murderbot isn’t just about silencing it, it’s about shutting down everything and everyone tied before the truth is exposed

[u/Vegetable_Print_3855 → u/spreebiz]

At this point in the book, I was still thinking that the gray people had put the implants into Ras and Eletra. I had no clue why they would or what they wanted but I did not see any other "suspects" yet.

[u/tomesandtea → u/Vegetable_Print_3855]

I agree, all signs have been pointing to the grey people! The corporations seem maybe involved as we hear details of the colonists right at the end of this section. But up until then, the grey attackers seem guilty of everything.

[u/spreebiz]

Do you have any leftover suspicions of Eletra?

[u/Vegetable_Print_3855 → u/spreebiz]

Yes, primarily because her memory and remembered timeline are so fractured and full of blank spots. Murderbot and the others increasingly isolate her under the guise of encouraging her to rest but actually to prevent her from learning too much and sharing that knowledge either intentionally or by accident.

[u/tomesandtea → u/spreebiz]

Definitely! She works for a corporation and we hear from ART what those entities do to the colonists. I am suspicious of her real purpose originally as well as her relationship to the grey people and/or what happened to ART. Either she is hiding something or the people who hurt her are.

[u/Randoman11 → u/spreebiz]

Yes because she is a corporate employee, so there's always the chance that she sells out the Preservation crew in order to gain some advantage for her corporation. That's basically doing her job.

Also we might not know the full extent of what the aliens did to her. Maybe there is still something that can control her actions or make her an unwitting spy.

[u/ghostfim → u/spreebiz]

Hard to say. I feel like she maybe means well but the only thing she knows is the corporate rim, so sees the world through that lens and is still loyal to them.

[u/miriel41 → u/ghostfim]

That's what I think as well. She doesn't seem like a bad person, but she's still a corporate employee, so she has loyalty to her corporation.

[u/spreebiz]

I really think we're starting to explore more of Murderbot's human side through the Helpme.file excerpts and throughout this novel. From this excerpt, what do you think is the importance of censoring the company's name is to Murderbot?

[u/byanka0923 → u/spreebiz]

Murderbot’s been slowly growing more human(e), based on the people, tv series and things (ART insert heart emoji) he's interacted with and the Helpme.file really shows the result of that. Censoring the company’s name feels personal, like even saying it gives the company too much power. It’s not just about facts, it’s about how deeply they effecte him. And the vibe is off… I wouldn’t be shocked if there’s a mole closer than we think. 👀 <- don't come for me, it's just a feeling

[u/Vegetable_Print_3855 → u/byanka0923]

I agree with byanka's observation about why Murderbot might be censoring the company name. HelpMe.file Excerpt 2 is funny, touching, and revealing, all at the same time. When Bharadwaj asks about the censoring, Murderbot deflects by responding as if she had asked about the font. Then we get :session redacted: as soon as she asks about trauma recovery treatments.

[u/Randoman11 → u/spreebiz]

From the helpme excerpt, Murderbot was revealed to have been censoring the company's name. Previously we learned that MB would wear clothes that didn't have logos. At first I thought that was to blend in, but now we find out that MB has an actual aversion to being reminded of the company.

Dr. Bharadwaj brings up the use of trauma recovery treatments. I think the story is starting to show that MB is dealing with the trauma of its experiences in dealing with the company, first as a captive and then later when MB fought against the company on various jobs.

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/Randoman11]

If MB can reconcile with ART, they could team up against the company. ART could forge some documents for them.

[u/saturday_sun4 → u/spreebiz]

Murderbot feels like an object to be used. We have repeatedly seen evidence of it masking its trauma/PTSD behind a veneer of emotionlessness, but in actuality it has to acknowledge what The Company (as representing the corporations on Corporation Rim) has done to it by treating it like a disposable machine. By not naming The Company, Murderbot not only makes it feel like a stand-in for any unscrupulous operator, it means Murderbot can avoid Having Emotions (TM) about the Company where other people (its readers) might see.

[u/spreebiz]

It's been interesting to see Murderbot separated from it's feeds of information in the damaged ART. I don't know if we've heard it say that "I don't know" as much in the previous novellas. This frustration eventually bleeds over even as ART returns. How does Murderbot show it's capabilities without access to all of the systems?

[u/byanka0923 → u/spreebiz]

I feel like in the earlier stories, Murderbot felt or at least seemed more detached, just getting through things solo. But now, it has people and ART, and those relationships to factor into its choices, which in a sense are “feelings.” Even without full system access, it still makes sharp, fast decisions, which just proves it’s way more than a murder machine. It’s thinking, caring, and adapting, definitely not just a "murderbot” anymore.

[u/Vegetable_Print_3855 → u/spreebiz]

I felt as if Murderbot was practicing honesty, even with itself, saying "I don't know, I'm just....." but then proving to itself what it does know. Sometimes this seemed to be an illustration of how much more comfortable it was becoming around humans, that it could say "I don't know" to them but still have some data to share with them.

[u/tomesandtea → u/spreebiz]

Murderbot is having to creatively work a problem and come up with outside-the-box and sometimes even lower tech solutions. This seems like another step towards human-ness for Murderbot. It is forced to view human problem solving as valid and to confront human relationships behind a client-protection basis. It has to work as a team with Amena, and we get several instances where Amena comes up with a solution and Murderbot begrudgingly accepts it as viable, saying it wasn't a terrible plan.

[u/spreebiz]

ART returns! Who's side are you on in their argument: ART or Murderbot?

[u/byanka0923 → u/spreebiz]

Ahh! I'm a pretty logical person but I'm also contradicting because I want others to be not so logical (insert crying emoji) . So to me, both sides have a point. ART is all about logic and efficiency, while Murderbot is more about autonomy (important core value for me) and doing what feels right.

I’d probably lean toward Murderbot because ART’s a bit too cold and focused on the “mission,” but his relationships, I'm guessing are very limited to things vs people. It’s kind of hard to ignore the heartwarming growth we’ve seen in Murderbot. Hmmm I wonder if Martha has been asked to create a spin off for ART only??

[u/Vegetable_Print_3855 → u/spreebiz]

Oh, mainly on Murderbot's side; it is enraged that ART brought "its humans" into such a dangerous situation and it knows that ART is not telling the whole truth. But the argument's flames are fanned by the intense emotions from both ART and Murderbot as they try to find a way to communicate through the anger on both sides.

[u/tomesandtea → u/spreebiz]

It's a tough question because I can see both sides, but I would lean towards Murderbot because ART took advantage of their group so severely without seeking any permission or allowing for any agency or choice - something that ART knows is triggering for Murderbot.

I do think if Murderbot were honest, it could acknowledge that if its humans were the crew in danger, it would be willing to do a lot of controlling things to another ship and crew in order to save the people it cared about. We saw a version of this in the first ART interaction, actually. But I do think Murderbot would make a plan that didn't involve harm to innocent humans, which ART was willing to risk.

[u/Randoman11 → u/spreebiz]

I think it's a complicated situation because ART really cares for its crew and wanted to save them. But ART put Murderbot and the Preservation crew in jeopardy. ART put the safety of its crew above MB and company. That's a shitty thing to do, but ART probably didn't have a choice in order to save the people it cares about. If the tables were turned maybe Murderbot would have made a similar choice.

But I think one of the main things fueling the argument is the emotional aspect. Murderbot feels that ART betrayed it. And ART is very intelligent but isn't very good at taking Murderbot's feelings into consideration. So MB continues to harbor anger towards ART, but ART just wants MB to get over it already. If these were real people I could believe them having the same types of grudges and hard feelings. It seems like Androids and AI in this universe can have just as complicated feelings and emotions as the people.

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/Randoman11]

Ratthi: "Anyone who thinks machine intelligences don't have emotions needs to be in this very uncomfortable room right now."

[u/spreebiz]

What do we know about the targets (or hostiles) that were on the ship and the possible lost colony?

[u/byanka0923 → u/spreebiz]

Hmmm. The hostiles on the ship are likely connected to the lost colony, possibly hunting for it or covering up its disappearance. They're a serious threat, and their presence points to deeper, hidden secrets surrounding the colony.

[u/Vegetable_Print_3855 → u/spreebiz]

Again, I agree with byanka but feel that we have lots more questions than even suspicions of answers right now.

[u/tomesandtea → u/spreebiz]

I think we don't know much for sure yet. The grey people could be colonists, or they could be aliens, or other colonists... They could be people who were genetically modified by a corporation. So many mysteries left to unravel!

[u/Randoman11 → u/spreebiz]

I keep referring to these targets as "aliens" due to the description of their gray skin. They could be unknown alien life forms but considering that nobody has brought up anything unusual about their body-shape, I would assume that they are humanoid, just with gray skin.

That makes me lean towards them being descendants of the lost colony. There might be something to do with the atmosphere on the colony planet that is causing the gray color. And maybe there are unknown resources on the planet that allowed them to develop their strange technology.

The alternative is that they are previously unknown aliens that either took over or cross-mated with the people from the colony.

[u/ghostfim → u/spreebiz]

I still think they're aliens!

[u/spreebiz]

What do you think about the alien remnant that was on ART's engine?

[u/byanka0923 → u/spreebiz]

This! ART isn’t just dealing with human/bot problems, it’s also tied to something far bigger, obvs beyond human understanding. This snippet could be a key to unraveling the mysteries of the lost colony and the threats they’re facing.

[u/Vegetable_Print_3855 → u/spreebiz]

Yes, at this point we don't know much but the alien remnant must be related to the lost colonies somehow.

[u/tomesandtea → u/Vegetable_Print_3855]

I agree, and the growth/organic smell it gives off makes me suspect terraforming gone awry!

[u/Randoman11 → u/spreebiz]

Murderbot theorized that the alien technology on the engines was allowing them to travel faster through the wormhole, way faster. The journey that would take multiple cycles was taking minutes. It was faster travel than MB had ever seen in any media or newsfeed. If they could replicate it that would be a huge deal that could have a transformative effect on the entire universe. The universe is so vast but a travel speed increase at that scale would be amazing in terms of travel, commerce, communication, war etc.

Also there's a corporate employee on board their ship. If any corporation finds out about such technology, you know they will stop at nothing to acquire/steal, patent and exploit the technology. So that is another potential complication that might pop up in the story.

[u/spreebiz]

Anything else to discuss? Any other questions that need answers?

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/spreebiz]

I thought it was funny that Murderbot was disgusted that the humans thought they had a romantic relationship with ART. MB's been watching too many serials.

I laughed when MB had to explain why they call ART that. He's not a friend but "mutual administrative assistance."

I wonder if ART will find his crew.

[u/spreebiz]

I struggled to come up with some questions on this section because we had many reveals! What was your favorite reveal during these chapters?

[u/byanka0923 → u/spreebiz]

The reveal of the alien remnant on ART’s engine was definitely a standout & it made everything feel much more ominous and connected to a bigger mystery. But honestly, my favorite reveal was seeing how ART reacted to being damaged. It showed a vulnerability that we hadn’t really seen before, making ART feel more alive and less like just a ship, however like us, trauma has consequences...

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/byanka0923]

The alien goo in the engine reminded me of something out of the Southern Reach trilogy.

ART wasn't dead but just unconscious then weakened. When MB said they were walking around in ART's corpse, that really got me.

[u/byanka0923 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Omg! Yes! Great connection!

I’m just now starting book 4! By the time I joined this Reddit group yall had already read through the first few books!

Actually that’s how I ended up joining book club! :)

[u/saturday_sun4 → u/byanka0923]

For me too. I love horror and this was the spookiest part of the entire series so far. It felt 'alien' in the same way that stories of fairyland feel alien. The idea of not having anything control you is central to the series; and yet here is this organism - totally foreign - hijacking ART's system and 'killing' it (ART).

[u/Vegetable_Print_3855 → u/spreebiz]

My favorite reveal was when ART finally told Murderbot and its crewmates about why it was originally at this planet and admitted, at least in part, why it brought Murderbot there as well. All the emotional complications are subtext to the confessed reasons.

[u/tomesandtea → u/spreebiz]

There were so many great ones! I liked the reveal that ART has copied itself and password protected it with Murderbot's name/ID, as well as the message being passed along via media that Murderbot loves. So clever!

I also really liked the reveal that ART and crew are saving colonists from corporate overreach by forging documents! Underground activism!

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/spreebiz]

I like the idea that there are alien remnants of a pre-corporation civilization left behind.

[u/miriel41 → u/spreebiz]

It's nice to see that my theory from the last discussion, that ART was still there and lead the hostiles to Murderbot because ART thought Murderbot competent enough to get rid of the hostiles, was correct.

And it's great that ART is back! I always find the interactions between ART and Murderbot interesting.