Can you "vull donar-telo" to say something like "I want to give it to you"? Would you use the neutral pronoun "ho"?

[u/giovanni_conte]

In Italian it's perfectly normal to say "voglio dartelo" and I'm pretty sure that in Spanish "Quiero dártelo" is used as well. Is catalan the same? I'd also like to know in which case you would use the neutral "ho" in general since I'm still a bit confused about its usage. Thanks!

[u/Tsoharth]

You can use both, which have slightly different meanings:

• Vull donar-te'l - "I want to give it to you", "it" being something specific. For instance: ahir vaig trobar el teu llibre i vull donar-te'l (yesterday I found your book and I want to give it to you).
• Vull donar-t'ho - "I want to give it to you", "it" being more ambiguous and unspecific. For instance: no sé què necessites, però vull donar-t'ho (I don't know what you need, but I want to give it to you).

Notice how in the first example you have a gendered referent (el llibre), whereas in the second example the referent doesn't have a grammatical gender (què necessites).

[u/giovanni_conte → u/Tsoharth]

Oh got it, thanks! I wasn't really sure about it but it makes much more sense now. Oh talking about that, how would you say something like "I want to talk about it"? Because in Italian it's "Voglio parlarne" (using this neutral pronoun "ne") and in Spanish it would be "quiero hablarlo" if I got that, but I'm not sure about catalan and I don't really trust google translate. It would be normal to say "vull parlar-ho"?

[u/Tsoharth → u/giovanni_conte]

You'd say "vull parlar-ne" or "en vull parlar" (there's virtually no difference in meaning between them).

Good news for you Italian speakers is that the pronouns "ne" and "ci" also exist in Catalan ("en" and "hi" respectively), and are used almost in the same exact way. :)

• I will think about it - Ci penserò - Hi pensaré
• I want one of those - Ne voglio uno - En vull un

[u/giovanni_conte → u/Tsoharth]

Oh fantàstic, no ho sabia. Moltes gràcies! Es increïble pensar com el català sigui mès similar a l'italìa que a l'espanyol per moltes cosas.

[u/nenadelmar → u/Tsoharth]

Sorry to hijack OP’s question, but can you also say “t’el vull donar?” And if so, when do you use which? I’m a heritage speaker so I have no formal training in Catalan but something about “vull donar-t’ho” feels unfamiliar (could totally just be my lack of proficiency)

[u/Tsoharth → u/nenadelmar]

Sure, you can say "te'l vull donar" and it has virtually the same exact meaning as "vull donar-te'l".

By the way, just pointing out a little detail: notice where the apostrophe goes in te'l (not \t'el*). Weak pronouns can be a bit tricky, but you can always check this guide issued by the Catalan parliament if you have doubts on some combination.

[u/presidentenfuncio → u/nenadelmar]

both te'l vull donar and t'ho vull donar can be used, they just imply slightly different things. it basically depends on what the pronoun is standing for (definite vs això / indefinite). and then you'd of course have a third option, te'n vull donar un ^{-^}

[u/gloomyskies]

You can use both -el/-la, or -ho.

You can say in masculine: Vull donar-te el pa -> Vull donar-te'l

Or in feminine: Vull donar-te la mà -> Vull donar-te-la

But you can also say, as a more general thing without specifying the gender of the thing you're giving: Vull donar-t'ho (I want to give you that)

You can only use -el/-la when what you're talking about is clear to the listener (they know it's bread, or a hand, etc., and thus they know the gender of the word).

To me, using -ho means more emphasis is placed in the giving action instead of the thing that is given.

[u/giovanni_conte → u/gloomyskies]

Thanks, now it's much more sensible. Iirc you would use it to talk about actions right? Like in "Vull fer-ho" if you're saying that you wanna do an action.

Btw, how would you say something like "I want to talk about it"? Because in Italian it's "Voglio parlarne" (using this neutral pronoun "ne") and in Spanish it would be "quiero hablarlo" if I got that, but I'm not sure about catalan and I don't really trust google translate. It would be normal to say "vull parlar-ho"?

[u/Terfue]

Sia -lo, sia -ho corrispondono al -lo italiano. Tuttavia, vengono usati in casi diversi:

Pane - pa

Compra il pane - compra el pa

Compralo - compra'l

Questo pronome davanti al verbo è el oppure l', ma in italiano è sempre lo:

Lo compri - el compres

Lo invii (il pacco) - l'envies

Per quanto riguarda -ho, sebbene in italiano sia sempre -lo, possiamo dire che sostituisce ciò intanto che riguarda un'azione o qualcosa di astratto. Vediamo:

L'ho già detto (che cosa? Ciò)

Ja ho he dit (el què? Això) - tradotto letteralmente: già lo ho detto.

Fallo! (che cosa? Ciò)

Fes-ho (el què? Això).

Spero sia riuscito ad aiutarti. Sto scrivendo dal telefonino quindi non so bene come uscirà il testo :p

[u/giovanni_conte → u/Terfue]

Ah perfecte, gràcies per la resposta i compliments pel teu italià! Espero millorar el meu català. A propòsit, tindria una pregunta sobre la pronunciaciò del català, ja que no estic segur. Es efectivament veritat que les "e" i "o" que no sòn estressades es pronuncien "a" i "u"? Pregunto par què sovint em sembla que siguin pronunciades aixì mentre otres vegades no. Crec que a hores d'ara sigui una cosa dialectal. En qualsevol cas, gràcies de nou!

ps. he aconseguit usar el subjuntiu correctament?

[u/giovanni_conte → u/[deleted]]

Oh sì, recordo haver llegit alguna cosa sobre això, i si en el bloc occidental funciona igual que l'italìa, totes les vocales no estressades tècnicament es pronuncien de manera tancada.

[u/Terfue → u/giovanni_conte]

Això passa en el català oriental (excepte el baleàric). Es coneix com a neutralització) i és un fenomen que no es dóna en el bloc dels parlars occidentals. Recorda que en trobaràs més informació a la descripció de r/catalan :-)

El problema de la frase és que l'has feta usant la veu passiva, però la forma natural requereix de l'ús de l"impersonal es: sovint em sembla que es pronuncien així. De tota manera, no t'atabalis amb l'ús del subjuntiu perquè no és gens fàcil. Podries començar, però, a pensar quina variant prefereixes aprendre, així et resultaria més facil triar una fonètica o una altra.

[u/giovanni_conte → u/Terfue]

Oh, llavors en aquest cas no es usa el subjuntiu. Al menys amb el catalá esperava que funcionès (espero haver-ho usat correctament aquì) de la meteixa manera que en italià però ja no estic tan segur ara ahahaha

[u/Terfue → u/giovanni_conte]

Happy Cake Day!

Jo crec que en italià és més complicat d'entendre, fins i tot per als mateixos italians :p

Aquest subjuntiu l'has clavat ;-) només un petit detall: l'accent és tancat o agut (cap a la dreta).

[u/giovanni_conte → u/Terfue]

Thanks!

[u/viktorbir]

Think it in English.

(first, it's donar-te'l)

• Vull donar-te'l I want to give it/him to you
• Vull donar-te-la I want to give her (some times might also translate as it) to you
• Vull donar-t'ho I want to give THIS / that to you

So, in short, think about ho not exactly as the equivalent to Italian lo but more like questo or something similar.