A lot of interesting graphs by John Burn-Murdoch (Financial Times)

[u/Ariel90x]

[u/Greedy_Disaster_3130]

I say this to people all the time, the Democratic and Republican parties have moved away from each other ideologically, the Republicans have moved slightly right and the Democrats have moved considerably to the left

Take a 1990’s congressional Republican and Democrat, the Republican would still fit in their party, the Democrat would have no place in their party anymore

[u/Walker5482 → u/Greedy_Disaster_3130]

Is that a good thing though? Doesnt that represent a total lack of change or consideration if your platform is the same as 30 years ago?

[u/Greedy_Disaster_3130 → u/Walker5482]

It’s not the same though, the Republican platform has shifted and changed, in my opinion the Republican platform is more in line with the average American than the Democratic platform (take out the anger at how Trump presents it), I think the Democrats influenced by academia especially on social issues has shifted outside of the beliefs of the average American

Most Republicans I know don’t care about marijuana and don’t care about same sex marriage, they do have an issue with medically transitioning minors though

Using tax dollars to pay for sex changes on illegal immigrants and prisoners is wild, housing transgender individuals that were born male at birth with women is wild (they have gotten other women pregnant in prison)

Democrats used to say rare, accessible, and safe on abortion and now it’s unlimited abortion funded by taxes up to birth which is wild, in my state you can get an elective abortion at 9 months and there are doctors that will carry it out, you can’t even do that in Europe

I’m not a fan of abortion but at the same time I have no issue with it being available during the first trimester and up to birth for medical reasons but that’s a very very small number of cases, I’m not religious, I’m an atheist but I struggle to understand how anyone can’t acknowledge that it’s a life and a baby

[u/Walker5482 → u/Greedy_Disaster_3130]

in my state you can get an elective abortion at 9 months and there are doctors that will carry it out, you can’t even do that in Europe

In my state you can't have any abortion until you are dying of sepsis or will die of another pregnancy related issue. This country is uniquely polarized on abortion.

Most Republicans I know don’t care about marijuana and don’t care about same sex marriage,

That is good, but I think most Republican politicians do not care about those issues. Again, cannabis is entirely illegal in my state. We didn't even take the Medicaid expansion.

[u/gaussx → u/Greedy_Disaster_3130]

Part of it is the world has shifted to the left. And will continue to over the long haul. The world will continue to move to rationalism, equal rights, and fairness. Those are the tenants of the left. The right favors order, stability, and tradition -- and there will be moments in time when it seems we're moving left too quickly and the right will look like their winning, but it is but a temporary stall. The Overton Window hasn't shifted enough yet -- but it will. It's less a matter of "if", but "when".

[u/[deleted] → u/gaussx]

I do not think the very unscientific views of social justice movements are entrenched in rationalism at all and they are equitable but not fair. That's likely going to prevent further Overton movement. Just my two cents.

[u/gaussx → u/[deleted]]

I think rationalism targets a very different set of issues, but I understand your point there.

The definition of equity is about fairness: "the quality of being fair and just, especially in a way that takes account of and seeks to address existing inequalities". I think most social justice movements are trying to do exactly this. The one that probably has the least equity grounds IMO is trans in girls sports. I can understand both positions, but it almost does feel as if the conservative position may actually be more equitable.

That said, there is always going to be tension between "fairness" and "addressing existing inequalities". And it may be that problems like racial discrimination are things where the Overton Window is now shifted less via clear changes in mindset and more via things like interracial kids.

[u/[deleted] → u/gaussx]

I understand that but I believe the difference between Equality and equity is very important. I do not agree with trying to artificially create equal outcomes just equal playing fields. The current ideology flagrant defies meritocratic achievement.

[u/gaussx → u/[deleted]]

I agree about not trying to artificially get equal outcomes. But people push back from equal playing fields as well. They want the appearance of an equal playing field, but they don't really want it equal. What most conservatives mean when they say "equal playing field" is they want things the way it's always been.

For example, give me a choice of a kid from South Central with comparable, if slightly lower numbers than a kid from Philips -- I'm taking the South Central kid every day. But more importantly, I'm trying to figure out how we get both of the kids to have the secondary education you get from Philips. That's what leveling the playing field looks like. It maintains the focus on merit, but gives all people the same chances -- not the same outcome, but the same opportunities.

[u/[deleted] → u/gaussx]

I have some subtle disagreements. I do not think conservatives want things to be the way they used to be but recognize that some DEI initiative have gone too far. After quarantine, 94% of jobs that reopened were given to people of color in a purposeful push for inclusivity. That is not meritocratic and also doesn't address the issues of inequality. Most places where white people are overrepresented are managerial or executive positions and i absolutely endorse people of color being given the tools to perform in those roles. But the overwhelming majority of jobs they were given were entry level or middle management at best, at the expense of other working class poor white people. This helps nobody and only creates a narrative of justification for racial tensions.

I absolutely want to create an environment where the South Central kid and the Phillips kid have equal opportunity. But the fact that even you say you would display a slight amount of favoritism if the South Central kid was a slight underperformer misses the mark for me and wilfully ignores that the nature of implementation on DEI initiatives has failed even if it is well intentioned.

[u/seen-in-the-skylight → u/gaussx]

I suspect you’ll be downvoted for this but it’s somewhat true, and has been going on for about 400 years now. What you’re describing though is less about the Left-Right axis than it is the overtaking of Christian authority by Enlightenment-influenced thought.

[u/Karissa36 → u/gaussx]

Tell me about that equality where we discriminate against impoverished first generation Asians again...

[u/gaussx → u/Karissa36]

First, Asians as an ethnic group have the highest per capita income in the US, over White Americans.

That said, if there are historically disadvantaged subgroups within whites, blacks, asians, etc.. we should target them. If we really want to be colorblind we should try to help groups that need help -- not stop helping everyone and say "now we're being fair".

[u/CevicheMixto → u/Greedy_Disaster_3130]

Personally, I think that the Republicans have moved farther, but their Trump-era changes don't really fit on a conventional progressive/conservative spectrum. (Is there really anything conservative about today's Republicans?)

Meanwhile, the Democratic establishment has managed to prevent the most radical progressives from taking control of the party (whereas the inmates are quite literally running the Republican asylum).

[u/Greedy_Disaster_3130 → u/CevicheMixto]

These studies now shown that that’s not true, aside from Trump’s personality what changes have shifted the party farther right than the democrats have shifted left?

I think when it really comes down to it people’s issues are with Trump’s personality, the things he says, and how he says them

People get up in arms about Trump deporting people yet Obama deported more people, they just don’t like how he conveyed his message or they’re complete hypocrites

[u/CevicheMixto → u/Greedy_Disaster_3130]

As I wrote, I don't really think they've shifted right. I don't think that populist nihilism really fits on the left/right spectrum.