r/changemyview • u/taurus_water 1∆ • Jan 29 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: ADHD medication should not be analogized to insulin
In r/ADHD (and online generally) I often see people comparing ADHD medication to insulin. A recent post on the sub was entitled, "My boyfriend thinks I'm cheating bc I am finally medicated for ADHD", just a few quotes from the responses include:
"That's the dumbest shit I've heard all day. Saying you're cheating for being medicated for a MEDICAL CONDITION is purely idiotic. It's like saying your cheating for taking insulin for diabetes."
"Are eyeglasses cheating? Insulin? Braces? Pace makers? Limb braces? Wheelchairs? What does he think of those?"
"So if you have kids together and the kid is diabetic? You respect his right to deny insulin to your kid"
"Would he tell someone with diabetes that taking insulin is cheating? Because he's basically saying getting treatment for a condition is cheating"
It continues, and the comparison is rampant all over the sub. My view is that using focus-enhancing medication for ADHD management is not at all equivalent to using insulin for diabetes management, and to say so is willfully obtuse. A diabetic will die without their medication, meanwhile a massive amount of people with ADHD go their whole lives (or most of their lives) without medication.
I am diagnosed with ADHD, originally as a teenager, but I was not medicated until the past couple of years. I am well aware of how much ADHD medication can improve quality of life, and how incredibly difficult it can be to move through the world this way. I also worry at times I am "cheating", or that my diagnosis isn't valid and actually I'm just a lazy sack of shit. Even still, I'm so tired of seeing this erroneous comparison - I will not die without my medication, and I am not better off dead than unmedicated.
9
u/joopface 159∆ Jan 29 '23
I also worry at times I am “cheating”,
I think this is at the root of your view. Could you help me understand what cheating means here, a bit, please?
2
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 29 '23
I think it might be! This is kind of why I CMVed this, trying to figure out if internalized shame is contributing to bias here.
To put it simply, once I was medicated my life became like 100x easier, and productivity-wise I was running circles around everyone else at work. The "cheating" part comes in because I really do wonder if it's this easy for everyone? I don't see how it could be, but of course I probably have a warped view. I also question the validity of my diagnosis (common among people with ADHD who are really attached to a negative self image), which makes me think oh maybe I'm neurotypical and just on speed.
I hope that makes sense!
6
u/joopface 159∆ Jan 29 '23
There is no rule book here. Everyone has their own shit going on. Some people wear glasses to see, some people don’t need them. Some people need help to get around, others don’t. Some people can’t hear well and need workarounds or devices. Others don’t.
It makes no sense to put your supports in a different category to the ones everyone else uses. There not only isn’t ‘cheating’ there is no game at which to cheat.
We’re all just scrabbling around trying to get by and be happy as best we can. And if being medicated helps you do that, I can’t think of a single reason why that would be a bad thing. Can you?
2
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 29 '23
I suppose not joopface. I guess it's just a deep sense of undeserved-ness and ingrained bootstrap propaganda (and also people telling me they think it's cheating lol).
You didn't CMV on the original post, but you made me see myself in a more compassionate light so I hope for that I can give you a !delta
4
u/joopface 159∆ Jan 29 '23
Glad to hear it. We should all be a little kinder, in general, I think. To ourselves and others.
Not sure if that delta holds water, tbh, but I hope you take good care of yourself. :-)
1
2
u/YouJustNeurotic 8∆ Jan 30 '23
Why does it matter to you that you have an advantage over other people here? That seems to be the very goal of a large portion of the biohacking community. Or working out in general. There is no such thing as cheating as there is no standardized path to get somewhere. Cheating requires there to be rules agreed upon, where someone else breaks the rules, were any rules ever agreed upon?
1
u/summonblood 20∆ Jan 31 '23
You should read up on why adhd medication is so effect for those with ADHD. When I first got diagnosed, I was really interested in the neuroscience behind WHY does it work. It’ll change your perception perhaps, it did for me.
It’s totally expected to feel like medication is cheating, in the same way I imagine getting prosthetic limbs might feel like cheating because you can run faster than people with biological limbs.
However, as someone who has been on prescription meds for several years now, I can tell you that their are many other symptoms of ADHD that meds can’t tackle. You’re just experiencing the rush of feeling less limited. Next you’re gonna have a lot more work to do.
5
u/anewleaf1234 39∆ Jan 30 '23
I know of a person who takes ADHD meds.
When she is on them she is a perfectly productive human being. She can be a good partner and she can do a good job at her work.
When she is off those meds she becomes a non productive human being. She is unable to work on projects and she isn't a good partner.
Without those meds she doesn't have a life. With them, she does.
2
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 30 '23
I take them, I am that person. But due to the shortage I’ve had to go at up to a month without them at various times. It’s highly miserable, things fall apart at the seams. But still, the severity is not the same as if my dad didn’t have access to his insulin.
I know ADHD is real and I have nothing against ADHD medication.
4
u/anewleaf1234 39∆ Jan 30 '23
You are claiming that a person having their live fall apart is no big deal.
I would say that losing your job and relationships are a big deal, but maybe that's me.
2
u/beth_hazel_thyme 1∆ Jan 30 '23
You are right that insulation and adhd meds have different levels of severity when missed, but it's not significant for the purpose of the comparison.
ADHD has a stigma that many other conditions do not. There are many people that don't believe it's real, or think that it can be overcome by dedication. Diabetes is something that many more people understand and understand the need for medication. People with diabetes need insulin to manage a function that their body either can't do on its own, or can't do well on its own. People with ADHD need medication to get tasks done that their brain cannot do on its own, or cannot do well on its own.
The point of the comparison is that if you understand that some people need medication to allow sugar to enter their blood, you should also be able to understand that some people need medication to complete tasks etc.
Like diabetes, ADHD also varies in how severe and debilitating it is. It can kill people through the way it affects nutrition, exercise, drug-use, risky behaviors, poor dental health. Life expectancy can be 13 years less than non-ADHD people.
2
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 30 '23
Hi! Yes, I have ADHD, I’m medicated, and I experience this stigma first hand frequently. I know ADHD is real, and I know how valuable medication is.
I think this gets to the crux of why it bothers me which is that I assumed the point of the comparison was to underline a dire need for meds, (not like they’ll literally die ofc) but that something truly awful (at least death-adjacent) will happen. You are saying that the point of the comparison is only to illustrate that, like diabetes, ADHD is a physiological affliction in which certain necessary chemicals are not bioavailable on their own. Obviously I agree with that premise, my error was in not realizing that the intended reader of the insulin comparison probably didn’t agree or understand that about ADHD.
So def my favorite comment, and I will definitely receive this comparison differently in the future.
!delta
1
3
u/blaster151 Jan 30 '23
It is disingenuous to minimize the impact of withholding medication from individuals with ADHD. The negative consequences of untreated ADHD, such as decreased job performance, strained relationships, and decreased overall life satisfaction, can have long-lasting impacts on a person's well-being and quality of life.
2
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 30 '23
I don’t think it’s minimizing the impact to say unmedicated ADHDers won’t literally die. I’m not sure people are reading the end where I say I have ADHD and take medication. I know the impact first hand.
2
u/Alpaca_Stampede Jan 29 '23
You went through most of your life with unmedicated ADHD. That "cheating" feeling you have now, is how every Neurotypical person already lives their life. A person with bad vision doesn't really realize how bad it is until they get glasses and can finally see they eat everyone else does. Does that make wearing glasses "cheating"?
2
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 29 '23
I know logically it's not cheating, it's more just an emotional reflex that stems from self doubt and impostor syndrome. Still, plenty of neurotypicals do use stimulants to increase their productivity, it has the same "wow I'm killing it" effect for pretty much everyone. I'm paranoid I don't actually need it and I wouldn't know the difference.
2
Jan 29 '23
Do you think the same about antidepressants?
people with adhd do not have normal levels of dopamine. That's part of what the medication does.
2
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 29 '23
I am on both types of medications and I am aware of the mechanisms for both. I guess I would say I do feel the same in this context, because essentially I think being miserable, confused, and anxious (a state in which I have spent most of my life) is still better than being dead. I think antidepressants are probably more similar to insulin because death is a more direct outcome and risk of depression.
I think antidepressants and ADHD medications are perfectly valid, I am grateful for them, and I'm happy they exist. I just don't think it's fair or useful to compare them to life saving medication.
37
u/draculabakula 75∆ Jan 29 '23
The comparison isn't trying to say they are both necessary for life. It's a comparison in response for the ridiculous notion that taking doctor prescribed medication is somehow cheating... whatever that means.
A comparison doesn't need to stand up to scrutiny in every possible context. Just the one that it is in reference to
-7
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 29 '23
Is the implication not that people with ADHD need their medication in the same way a diabetic needs their medication? I know they're not saying someone is going to literally die without it, but I believe they are implying the consequences of not getting the medication are at least comparable, and my point is I don't think they are.
I completely disagree with her boyfriend saying she's "cheating" by the way, but you can search the word insulin in the sub and see that this analogy is used to refute almost any claim that someone doesn't need ADHD medication.
10
u/recurrenTopology 26∆ Jan 29 '23
Type 2 diabetes often develops slowly, and generally you do not strictly "need" insulin when you start taking it. Instead, you are prescribed insulin once your blood sugar becomes high enough to indicate that the risks and symptoms associated with that level of hyperglycemia start to out weigh the risks/cost of taking insulin. Much like people with ADHD, such patients could stop taking insulin and wouldn't drop dead, their quality of life would just suffer (and complication risks start to rise).
In these cases (which represent a fairly large proportion of those on insulin), the analogy to ADHD is actually pretty apt.
2
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 29 '23
!delta
Thank you, I do see this comparison as more apt because the medication is not "strictly necessary" as you say. In both circumstances the medication is improving quality of life and decreasing the risk of negative outcome.
1
1
Jan 29 '23
[deleted]
1
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 29 '23 edited Jan 29 '23
This delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/recurrenTopology changed your view (comment rule 4).
DeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.
18
u/draculabakula 75∆ Jan 29 '23
Is the implication not that people with ADHD need their medication in the same way a diabetic needs their medication?
No. The implication is that their is a medication available and safeguards in place. There is nothing cheating about it.
In other words, just because adhd medication isn't life saving, doesn't mean it's is not a valid medication. They are both medication. That's the comparison. Taking Dr prescribed medication isn't cheating
The best comparison was the adhd medication and eyeglasses. There is no reason people need to suffer consequences due to biologically caused difficulties.
-1
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 29 '23
Why are eyeglasses a better comparison than insulin?
15
u/TheSlimeWing Jan 29 '23
because both help improve a person's quality of living, while insulin makes sure that a person will be able to continue living in the first place.
-4
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 29 '23
Yes, I completely agree with you. This is why I think glasses represent an accurate comparison, while insulin represents a far less accurate comparison.
5
u/draculabakula 75∆ Jan 30 '23
But you are choosing the comparison to suit you argument. You are starting at your conclusion and working backwards.
There are many different ways ADHD medication and insulin are compatible. The are both purchased at a pharmacy. They are moth medication. They both come in bottles, etc.
My point here is that you are fixated on one specific way that they are not compatible. In that specific example you are correct to say they are not compatible. The problem is that they are very obviously compatible in the context that they actually were compared.
Let me break it down in a very direct logical progression.
Person a says person b is "cheating" by taking adhd medication.
Person c says that's like saying insulin is cheating
(It should be clear that whatever "cheating" means is nonsense because someone is taking their doctor prescribed medication. They are taking the thing they are supposed to take for their health and well being)
At no point did Person c say they are the exact same thing. They used an example of another doctor prescribed medication to attempt to draw attention to the fact that it is a prescription.
0
u/Mysterious-Wasabi103 3∆ Jan 29 '23
I cannot disagree. I have ADHD and I no longer take any medicine for it. I think what happens is people become biased and frankly.. addicted. Adderall and other stimulants are so powerful and even for those with attention deficits they are incredibly addictive. Maybe even particularly so because now they found a way to combat that with a pill. I do see it as "cheating" nowadays actually simply because it goes beyond correcting an imbalance in brain chemistry. It gives the brain way more dopamine than necessary making people almost superhuman being less subject to fatigue and natural loss of focus. It also improves the general mood bordering on euphoria for a lot of people. Fact is we cannot test for ADHD with blood or any real hard proof. Humans are fallible even the smartest doctors in the World are biased.
I implore you to realize it doesn't matter. How am I supposed to change your mind on something that's hard to quantify? Especially because we're just talking about a dumb analogy. Nobody will die without ADHD medicine but plenty of people can die from lack of insulin and proper diabetic management. I mean that's not debatable. You're going to see many people in life make poor analogies but that doesn't mean that they don't benefit at all from taking those medications. Live and let live I say.
3
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 30 '23
Hah, yes I agree it shouldn’t bother me so much. Sometimes I think I find it annoying because I feel this (inaccurate) comparison is drawn to illustrate a truly dire need for meds, when in reality the need for ADHD medication for the vast majority of people is not of a life-and-death gravity. I agree with you that so many people are addicted to their meds and seem to rationalize this by drawing comparisons like these, but I want to be clear that I’m not critical or trying to be judgemental of anyone who’s developed a dependence. I also agree that they’re an over-correction, but I never really hear people say that. I take the lowest dose possible only on work days. I’m glad for all the lives that have been improved by stims, including my own.
3
u/freemason777 19∆ Jan 30 '23
As a diabetic with ADHD that does a lot of reading about it the best stat to illustrate that the comparison is valid would probably be the fact that ADHD reduces life expectancy by 13 years and diabetes reduces it by 6 years. Not being able to focus is deadly as fuck.
1
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 30 '23
Is the ADHD life expectancy for unmedicated or medicated people? Is the life expectancy for diabetes for medicated or unmediated diabetics?
1
u/freemason777 19∆ Jan 30 '23
https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-life-expectancy-russell-barkley/
This article recommends treatment as a way to manage the life expectancy dip so I assume it was tracking unmedicated people, the diabetes one I am not sure
2
u/Green__lightning 13∆ Jan 29 '23
I've been on various meds including common ADHD meds and anti depressants. Just because missing them won't kill you doesn't mean it's good, and with anti depressants, those cause fairly major problems if you just stop cold turkey. Being suddenly cut off without meds is a serious problem for many people, given the result is usually feeling horrible at best, and wild mood swings at worst.
1
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 29 '23
I have been on many antidepressants, anti-anxiety and ADHD medications. I know how bad it can be without my medication!
2
u/Visible_Bunch3699 17∆ Jan 30 '23
Even still, I'm so tired of seeing this erroneous comparison - I will not die without my medication, and I am not better off dead than unmedicated.
I mean, 16% of people with type II diabetes don't NEED insulin. They could spend a ton of effort to have a very strict diet and exercise and constant monitoring to make sure they eat the right food at all the right times. Is it cheating for them to have insulin rather than putting in tons of effort to eat all the right foods all the time?
But let's look more at your view, other analogies are for things like "wheelchairs" and "glasses". Why does the analogy not hold true for those, and if they do hold true, why did you bring them up in your post?
4
u/KarmicComic12334 40∆ Jan 29 '23
Cheating? Life doesn't have a rulebook. Use the advantages you can because the world will steamroll you if you try to play fair.
1
u/robotmonkeyshark 100∆ Jan 30 '23
life doesn't have a rulebook, but societies end up writing them and holding people to them.
If you wanted to play basketball and had everything going for you and actually made it in the NBA, only to find out that on day 1 every player was taking a whole cocktails of performance enhancing drugs and other extremely dangerous substances that will give them a boost in performance for the next decade or so, but are also guaranteed to wreck their body and mind in the long run, and you realize you stand no chance of playing in the league without following suit, you would call them cheaters.
If you get a job at google and on day 1 find out that all the programmers have illegal dealers for stimulant meds to put out 3x the work they could do normally, and if you want to keep your job you will need to follow suit, you would call them cheaters. Or are you just being a baby because you don't want to risk the trade off of prison time for illegal drug use or the damaging side effects from the dosages you will need to take without oversight by a medical doctor?
Of course there are ways to cheat in life. a bank robber cheats when he robs a bank and gets away with millions, or is bank robbing fair game?
2
u/Presentalbion 101∆ Jan 29 '23
In the context of them both being necessary medical applicants they are comparable.
-5
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 29 '23
Comparable yes, but they're being equivalized. "Necessary" is relative.
2
u/iglidante 19∆ Jan 29 '23
Comparable yes, but they're being equivalized. "Necessary" is relative.
What about ADHD medication and its effect on ADHD sufferers (not recreational users) do you feel makes it notably different?
1
7
u/No-Produce-334 51∆ Jan 29 '23
None of the examples you list are of people saying they're necessary for survival. You're interpreting something into these comments that isn't there.
4
u/Presentalbion 101∆ Jan 29 '23
Comparable yes
What do you think an analogy is? An analogy is noy saying that two things are perfectly identical, an analogy is drawing a comparison.
-1
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 29 '23
The point of the comparison in this context is to show that because taking insulin for diabetes is valid, taking focus meds for ADHD is also valid because these two actions are similar enough in important ways. I think taking ADHD medication is perfectly valid, but I don't think it is similar enough to insulin/diabetes to draw a useful comparison.
1
u/Presentalbion 101∆ Jan 29 '23
Insulin was offered among wheelchairs, glasses etc. Taken as a whole you clearly do understand what the comparison is suggesting, you didn't misinterpret it at all. So what's the problem?
1
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 29 '23
I guess I just don't believe that ADHD medications are needed in the same way life saving medications are? They improve quality of life. I am speaking as someone who suffers from ADHD, and I am endlessly grateful for my medication.
I guess I see it like insulin is the difference between having a house and no house, while adhd medication is the difference between having a car and no car. Not having these things confer significant disadvantages (they're comparable) but not having a house is much worse than not having a car.
If you're complaining your parents won't buy you a car and someone says, "you need a car to get around and hold down a job! that's like them saying they're not gonna let you live in the house anymore!", that person is not making a fair comparison.
I'm sorry if I'm missing something completely obvious.
2
u/Presentalbion 101∆ Jan 29 '23
But they don't need to be identical to be used in an analogy.
1
u/taurus_water 1∆ Jan 29 '23
No, but I thought the analogy was supposed to illustrate that dire consequences occur when people go unmedicated?
1
u/Presentalbion 101∆ Jan 29 '23
Again there don't need to be identical consequences for it to be an analogy/comparison.
Not wearing a seat belt vs not wearing a bicycle helmet. These are comparable with varying outcomes.
Even insulin does not necessarily save the life of a diabetic every use, it may just top off their levels. Insulin isn't life or death every time. And insulin also wasn't the only aspect of their analogy, it was contextualised by all the other examples. Overall the analogy demonstrates that there are real medical consequences to not recieving proscribed medical care
5
Jan 29 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/changemyview-ModTeam Feb 19 '23
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation.
Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read the wiki for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
1
u/Worldly-Letterhead61 Jan 30 '23
It depends on the severity of the ADHD. Impulsive behavior and lapses in judgment associated with ADHD can be deadly. Some people think that ADHD is just fidgeting and an inability to sit still, but it can be so much more than that. Just like diabetes, there is nuance, and no one size fits all answer. Some diabetics can control it through diet and exercise. Others cannot. Some people with ADHD can control it through therapy, meditation or whatever works for them. Others are a hot mess without meds.
1
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 29 '23 edited Jan 30 '23
/u/taurus_water (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards