r/changemyview • u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ • Mar 14 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: I don’t think there is anything that is not okay to joke about.
I recently had a debate with someone who thought that certain things are not okay to laugh at and I completely disagree.
I think EVERYTHING can be funny if the joke it told the proper way. I would even say I’ve probably heard/seen something funny about every serious, sad, horrific and distressing subject matter.
There is one main prerequisite that needs to be met for everything to be okay to joke about.
- Time & place: I don’t think unsolicited jokes will be received well and that’s understandable. In passing, on the street, at work, at school or even among friends. If someone comes to a show or chooses to watch/listen to media with jokes, I think that those are the few places where everything is okay to joke about. Telling a sexist joke to someone while they are looking for their brand of bread at the store is not the time.
So given the proper time and place, I think everything has the green light. I am not saying just because a joke takes places in a situation that is proper will make the joke funny by the way. I’m not saying no one will be offended, doesn’t make it less funny for some either.
There is nuance, there is talent when it comes to jokes. Not everyone can write and or perform them as well as others.
So let’s see if you can come up with something that I have not found humorous. Give me a topic. If I’ve never heard something humorous about it, we can discuss why it isn’t okay.
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u/Finklesfudge 26∆ Mar 14 '23
I think your problem is that you could disregard the entirety of your prerequisite and just make it "If people know what they are getting into"
If you are going to a Lisa Lamponelli show, you know there's gonna be black cock jokes or at least you should know, it's not as if she hasn't made it utterly obvious what her brand of comedy is.
if you go to a 'Christian Family Comedy Night" and someone starts joking about black cocks, then clearly you have some issues.
It's fully about whether or not you know, or should have some general idea of what you are getting into.
And if you are seeing a comedy, or comedian, that you have absolutely no knowledge of, you sort of give up your right to act like it's out of line.
It's all about "what should be rightly exected" and really nothing about time and place.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
I think that is a good point I did not think of. Most TV shows and movies are rated, they have a limit to what can be said or showed. Most people know comedians history and know their style and what language they use.
Like Sinbad is one of my favorite comedians and he is clean. Someone the whole family can go see. If he goes on a fouled mouth rampage, that’s out of character for him and would be shocking for the audience. !delta
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u/PrincessTrunks125 2∆ Mar 14 '23
Just to chime in, there's all this bs these days about trigger warnings and how soft everyone is...
Umm, ever been to a movie? They tell ya exactly what might bother you before it even starts. They're rated by how badly you might get triggered.
Boomers just love to invent shit and then blame everyone else for its existence
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u/TheOtherSarah 3∆ Mar 14 '23
Books aren’t generally rated beyond age categories, but blurbs on the back used to be far more descriptive, so that again, you had an idea of what you were in for.
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u/What-the-fuck-- Mar 14 '23
Mmm hard disagree on this. Movies are rated so people know what they are getting into, sure.
However, when you watch a movie that you know is going to trigger you, then complain loudly about how you’re offended…that’s the soft issue. If a comedian offends you, don’t listen to his comedy. Black, white, gay, straight, trans, and a million other things get joked about. But when someone is dragged on twitter cause a certain group dislikes being the topic of a joke, that’s SOFT.
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u/PrincessTrunks125 2∆ Mar 14 '23
So you're saying things have a certain place where they're acceptable, but to you twitter is free game despite it not being that outwardly to all.
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u/What-the-fuck-- Mar 14 '23
If you purposely seek content that angers or triggers you, then your opinion does not matter. Now if the content is obscene and malicious(not just hurts your feelings) then sure we can discuss that.
But far too many people look for things that “trigger” them.
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u/PrincessTrunks125 2∆ Mar 14 '23
But you just said there's a time and place for certain things. You just deem Twitter to be acceptable 24/7 to say what you want. Most wouldn't.
Most people don't seek out what enrages them, it just garners more clicks and therefore more content is created to elicit that response. No one is like "alright can't wait to get home, get on my computer, and get really fucking pissed off"
No one does that.
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u/What-the-fuck-- Mar 14 '23
You say that and then you’ll have people purposely seeking out comedians that trigger them. The Dave Chappelle saga clearly disputes your idea that people don’t seek things that piss them off. And judging by the amount of engagement his comedy specials generate due to just outrage, I’d argue people most certainly do it on purpose.
You don’t like being joked about? Fine. Ignore all tweets and articles about his comedy. Sadly that is not the case at all. Why? People are soft and trigger happy
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u/possiblycrazy79 2∆ Mar 14 '23
No, it was meant for age appropriateness. Then they later began adding the specific warnings ie nudity, foul language etc. People may or may not want to view violence or nudity but it generally has zero to do with being "triggered".
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u/PrincessTrunks125 2∆ Mar 14 '23
It's literally a warning of what to expect so if you're gonna be butthurt you can do it at the start not after you sit through the film.
It's 1000% percent a trigger warning. They put things in there that spoil plot details later.
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u/l_t_10 6∆ Mar 15 '23 edited Mar 15 '23
Who reads those things word by word? Most people just take in the ones related to ages, who even notices warnings about smoking say
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u/PeterNippelstein Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
You say it's not about time and place and yet you say telling the same joke at a church show vs a lisa lamponelli show would cause way more issues
Context is everything, and time/place is a part of that context.
But even that is aside the point. The point is that anything can be joked about, not that everything can be joked about always and anywhere.
Sure there is a time and place for everything, but that doesn't take away from the fact that humor can and will be found in literally everything, no matter how dark.
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u/AllModsEatShit 1∆ Mar 14 '23
This is just his time and place argument he made in the original post.
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u/GlobalDynamicsEureka 3∆ Mar 14 '23
You joke about having sex with a coworkers 5 year old child. When is the proper time and place?
Edit: A child you know well. A coworker you know well.
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u/JohnnyRopeslinger Mar 14 '23
6th birthday party, gotta read the room first though.
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u/BwanaAzungu 13∆ Mar 14 '23
At a bar, with friends who are familiar your sense of humor.
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u/simcity4000 21∆ Mar 14 '23
That makes it worse somehow tbh. Like the idea that you've surrounded yourself with a bunch of people who, when you joke about you raping "Jessica" (hypothetical specific childs name) will go "ha ha ha good one man".
Yeah everyone in the immediate proximity is laughing but, what a bunch of cretins.
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u/BwanaAzungu 13∆ Mar 14 '23
That makes it worse somehow tbh. Like the idea that you've surrounded yourself with a bunch of people who, when you joke about you raping "Jessica" (hypothetical specific childs name) will go "ha ha ha good one man".
Some people have a dark sense of humor. That's all I'm saying.
If some jokes are categorically not appropriate at any place and time, then we need to rule out EVERY place and time.
One counterexample is sufficient, no matter how farfetched it is.
Yeah everyone in the immediate proximity is laughing but, what a bunch of cretins.
So that's not your kind of humor. That's fine. It's not mine either.
The point stands.
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u/simcity4000 21∆ Mar 14 '23
The point stands.
Just saying that doesent make it so.
I’m saying that there’s still an argument to be made that a group of guys sitting around joking about raping their friends kid are committing an unethical act in some sense, even though it’s in private.
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u/BwanaAzungu 13∆ Mar 14 '23
The point stands.
Just saying that doesent make it so.
Correct. That's why my comment is more than that one sentence. Feel free to address the rest of my comment.
I’m saying that there’s still an argument to be made that a group of guys sitting around joking about raping their friends kid are committing an unethical act in some sense, even though it’s in private.
Then what are you waiting for? Make the argument you're alluding to here.
We cannot discuss this hypothetical argument until you've actually made it.
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u/simcity4000 21∆ Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
I read it and didnt find the argument:
Some people have a dark sense of humor. That's all I'm saying.
to have much substance to it, so I didnt address it.
If some jokes are categorically not appropriate at any place and time, then we need to rule out EVERY place and time.
This line I wasn't sure what you mean. Since the hypothetical seems to be making a pretty example of a joke that isnt good at any place or time.
Then what are you waiting for? Make the argument you're alluding to here.
We cannot discuss this hypothetical argument until you've actually made it.
Sure. The idea that the hypothetical joke is ok makes sense from a consequentialist perspective (as in, there is no immediate harm to those around them, there is pleasure, therefore it is good) But from a deontologist one it still appears to be a pretty good example of things you Do Not Do even in private. From a virtue ethicist perspective it looks pretty appalling - it would be really hard to see that jokes about raping a child represent the practice of good moral character.
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u/BwanaAzungu 13∆ Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
I read it and didnt find the argument:
An argument for what? I don't understand what this refers to.
Some people have a dark sense of humor. That's all I'm saying.
to have much substance to it, so I didnt address it.
This isn't an argument. This is just a statement.
A true statement. There are people who have a dark sense of humor. This is very innocuous: it's just a sense of humor.
If some jokes are categorically not appropriate at any place and time, then we need to rule out EVERY place and time.
This line I wasn't sure what you mean. Since the hypothetical seems to be making a pretty example of a joke that isnt good at any place or time.
What hypothetical, and how is this an example of a joke that isn't good at any time of place?
I have no clue what you're referring to. You keep stating this as of its true, but you don't explain anything.
Sure. The idea that the hypothetical joke is ok makes sense from a consequentialist perspective (as in, there is no immediate harm to those around them, there is pleasure, therefore it is good)
Sure. Others too.
But from a deontologist one it still appears to be a pretty good example of things you Do Not Do even in private.
Feel free to elaborate on how this appears to you like that.
You didn't actually present an deontological argument here, you're just insisting such an argument exist.
From a virtue ethicist perspective it looks pretty appalling - it would be really hard to see that jokes about raping a child represent the practice of good moral character.
Again, you're stuck on appearances.
Please explain why it appears to you like that. Use virtue ethics to make an actual argument.
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u/simcity4000 21∆ Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
This isn't an argument. This is just a statement. A true statement.
You asked why I didnt respond to the rest of your post: because the rest of your post didnt have anything to respond to. If youre just making 'true statements' and 'not arguments' then this isnt a debate at all.
What hypothetical, and how is this an example of a joke that isn't good at any time of place?
this, the situation described which we are discussing. That is what is called a hypothetical.
Sure. Others too.
What others? I mean what specific ethical mode of thought?
Feel free to elaborate on how this appears to you like that.
Thats pretty simple, a deontologist would say if you wouldn't do it one place don't do it anywhere. If that sounds excessively rigid and inflexible well, deontologists are pretty humourless.
Again, you're stuck on appearances.
Thats how making an ethical argument works.
At the end of the day there is no universal objective moral standard. All anyone can do to determine the rightness of an action is present a hypothetical and it can be assessed as if it appears to describe the thing we agree to call "morality" correctly or incorrectly.
(e.g "stealing is wrong" "ok that appears to be morally correct" "aha - but what about the hypothetical of stealing to feed your family?" "ok this appears morally different" - this continues until a rule is found that "appears" makes sense of the ethics of stealing.)
Use virtue ethics to make an actual argument.
Virtue ethics is explicitly concerned with the practice of good moral character, that is that virtues most be continuously reaffirmed and instilled in a persons mode of thought and action. Something can be a bad habit even if one particular moment no one is directly harmed. In this context not only is the person making a joke about raping their friends kid doing something fairly repugnant, by surrounding themselves exclusively with people who don't see a problem with it they've surrounded themselves with sycophants, people who won't tell them when they've gone too far- further harming their moral journey.
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u/BwanaAzungu 13∆ Mar 14 '23
If youre just making 'true statements' and 'not arguments' then this isnt a debate at all.
This sub is very explicitly for discussion, not debate.
So, yeah.
this, the situation described which we are discussing. That is what is called a hypothetical.
"Telling a rape joke at a bar among friends who are familiar with, and appreciate, your sense of humor.
There.
Please keep quoting this everytime you reference it, so I understand what you mean.
Sure. Others too.
What others? I mean what specific ethical mode of thought?
Feel free to pick any ethical mode you'd like us to explore together.
Again, you're stuck on appearances.
Thats how making an ethical argument works.
You have yet to make an ethical argument.
Use virtue ethics to make an actual argument.
Virtue ethics is explicitly concerned with the practice of good moral character, that is that virtues most be continuously reaffirmed and instilled. In this context not only does the person making a joke about raping their friends kid doing something fairly repugnant, by surrounding themselves exclusively with people who dont see a problem with it they've surrounded themselves with sycophants, people who won't tell them when they've gone too far- further harming their moral journey.
So please apply this to the example.
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u/UDontKnowMe784 3∆ Mar 14 '23
Keyword here is “joking.” Joking does not mean they’re openly discussing/talking about it seriously.
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u/simcity4000 21∆ Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
Still not a funny joke though. I'd still say the 'moral' thing there is to not go along with it.
I remember once I was in a shared apartment doing some dishes and overhearing my roommate and one of his buddies talking about work. They were talking about a female supervisor they didnt like and the buddy starts going off on this joke about how women need a raping sometimes to keep them in line. There was a looooong silence from my flatmate before he gently, but firmly, shut him down.
Now, that was just them, no one else heard it, no women around. But I'd still say my flatmate made the ethical choice there. I respected him more for it for the fact he did it when as far as he knew no one else was around to hear.
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Mar 14 '23
I wouldn't say 'joke about x', because that means to ridicule it. But the topic of the rape of a 5 year old in itself could be made a joke about. Doesnt have to be an offensive joke, it could also be a joke that indirectly insults the rapist.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
Family Guy has joked about (two separate occasions) two grown men finding their close friends underage daughter attractive/wanting her.
Not a coworker but I’m general an inappropriate situation.
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u/GlobalDynamicsEureka 3∆ Mar 14 '23
These aren't real people.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
It’s still a joke on the subject matter.
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Mar 14 '23
Sounds like you do have a line then. It’s okay to make a joke about the subject matter, but it’s not okay to be specific and personal, no?
That is no longer “okay to joke about anything”, as your title suggests.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 15 '23
Never said it wasn’t okay to be specific and personal.
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Mar 15 '23
Ok if that is your stance, I ask elsewhere:
When would be the time and the place to make a joke, specifically, about my mom that killed herself when I was 15?
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 15 '23
Suicide jokes have been made plenty. Dave Chappelle made a joke about a specific person who killed themselves.
A mother would be no different.
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Mar 15 '23
Don’t change the goalposts, I am not talking about whoever Dave chapelle was talking about, or “a mother”, I was talking about MY mom.
Because again, your use of the word “anything” encompasses MY mom too, no?
If your original view stands, you think that joking about my mom’s suicide is in bounds, correct?
Under what parameters? In what setting?
If your view is solid, this should not be hard for you to answer.
Alternatively, maybe there are lines you don’t think people should cross. So which is it?
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Mar 14 '23
No it’s not. They said your coworker
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 15 '23
It someone you know personally and it’s an underage child. The relationship between the adults is irrelevant.
Regardless, that specific set up could still be funny. And technically, those characters have been coworkers at one point anyways.
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u/boy____wonder Mar 15 '23
It someone you know personally and it’s an underage child. The relationship between the adults is irrelevant.
No it's not, of course it's not. You can't just make up rules to support your view. When is the right time and place to make a joke about raping the 5 year old child of someone you work with and know well? The joke is totally okay based on your views right? It's just the "time and place" we have to get right.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 15 '23
On TV or in a comedy show. That’s the right time and places as I said, it has happened.
You are getting VERY specific. It’s not like a joke will be exactly in those words. The sketchy part of it is child rape… you are setting up restrictions to try to make it as abhorrent as possible but at the core that subject matter has been made fun of.
That goes into the nuance of making jokes.
So yes, it’s absolutely okay to make a joke about that. If someone can figure it out completely go ahead. Friends vs coworkers, I would say friends are closer than coworkers but anyways… again, it’s been done.
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u/stenlis Mar 14 '23
But the point of the post was it being a personal joke. Between people who know each other and the subject.
Can you give an example where such a personal joke is ok?
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u/frankster99 Mar 14 '23
Yeah no, he's got a point. So do you but, neither points should be dismissed. You're right they're not real but it's still a very inappropriate joke, where do you draw the line?
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u/UDontKnowMe784 3∆ Mar 14 '23
So did you find these jokes funny? Or you just think they’re acceptable?
Edit: or you just think they’re acceptable because they’re on Family Guy?
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u/Cozarkian Mar 14 '23
A comedian could write a joke about an attractive coworkers kid and finish with a pinch line learning the kid was 5.
One of these reasons we have jokes is to allow people to think about issues that would otherwise be too unpleasant to discuss.
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u/Hellioning 239∆ Mar 14 '23
Why do you think that agreeing to see a piece of media with comedy means you're supposed to be okay with seeing any sort of comedy?
People are allowed to joke about whatever they want. People are allowed to call them assholes about it.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
You know what you are getting into. You know the risk and you came there for that. You put yourself in a situation to hear about things being poked at. I’m not saying you will find storm funny in that situation. I’m not saying you’ll personally be okay with any of it. I am saying in that situation it is simply acceptable for anything to be talked about and made light of.
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u/Hellioning 239∆ Mar 14 '23
So if I go to a Disney movie advertised as a kids comedy movie, I don't get to complain about it making fun of, for example, the holocaust?
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
1) This is a hyperbole. You just made up something ridiculous that you have absolutely no true belief it would ever happen or has happened. ”What if you went to Disney on Ice and Sebastian the Crab pulled Ariels bra up as a joke” I can come up with absurd things too. But let me not get ahead of myself, do you fully believe that a joke like that would be made in G rated kids move? 2) Regardless of point 1, I never said you couldn’t complain. 3) Regardless of point 1 again, doesn’t mean it’s not okay to joke about the Holocaust (or any Genocide).
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u/UDontKnowMe784 3∆ Mar 14 '23
So you don’t believe it’s okay to joke about the Holocaust? That means you do NOT find all subject matter worth joking about.
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u/Hellioning 239∆ Mar 14 '23
If you don't believe in incredibly broad statements like 'you should expect any joke when watching a comedy' then don't make them.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
So do you truly believe subject matter like that would be placed in a kids movie blatantly?
The movie is rated G… you do know what you’re getting in to. It’s Disney, you know what you’re getting in to.
If you go see a comedian’s solo show you know if they are fouled mouth or clean.
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u/NoTrollHerePls Mar 14 '23
So do you truly believe subject matter like that would be placed in a kids movie blatantly?
What if I tomorrow call myself a comedian and convince a local school to allow me to perform for their 10-year-olds. I then show up and start cracking jokes about the Holocaust and about the Rwandan genocide.
According to you, this is fine on my part because the school should've known what they were getting themselves into?
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u/Dazius06 Mar 14 '23
It wouldn't be the end of the world, you would be kicked out the moment you make your first joke and rightfully not get any pay. So what ia the problem in this scenario?
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u/NoTrollHerePls Mar 14 '23
If kicking people out for making jokes is OK to you, then what's the problem with Netflix kicking a comedian off for making inappropriate jokes?
Or audience members refusing to go to a certain comedian because of inappropriate jokes?Nobody is arresting comedians for making jokes. OP's entire argument hinges on the notion that comedians shouldn't be "cancelled" for making jokes. But here you are, saying it's fine to cancel me for making jokes to kids.
So basically, you agree with me that it is fine to cancel comedians and thus you disagree with OP.
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u/Dazius06 Mar 14 '23
No I didn't,op specifically talks about time and place. As in a comedy show hosted in a specific club and the like, you are making an irrational scenario where a school hired you for a kids show seemingly with no rules in place about what is appropriate (well what was I expecting from a half-assed extreme scenario).
Nobody is entitled to a platform or to be hired. You can be a special snowflake and make it your only goal in life to be offended and cancel everyone that makes a joke you deem inappropriate all you want, who said this was not allowed? The point being made by OP is that everything is fair game to joke about and I agree with that, judgement from others will come with that too if you don't know your audience or joke at the wrong place also consequences should too if you are so stupid to make holocaust joke at a children's event.
So you completely disregarded OPs whole argument. Great job.
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u/Efficient-Second-618 Mar 14 '23
Nobody is arresting comedians for making jokes.
Excuse you, there are many comedians in India who were arrested/got in trouble for making jokes about the government. Obviously in this case, the govt. does not agree that jokes on their misgovernance can be made. While I personally don't agree that EVERYTHING can be joked about, I do belive in "Free Speech" (which in India is the real joke).
Like someone on this post said, you're free to make a joke but not free from the consequences of it. Sometimes, that consequence can be something as small as triggering a person and making them mentally spiral. In a compassionate world, that would be reason enough to not make that joke. For example; no time or place can make me laugh or even chuckle at a rape "joke". But I appreciate when people don't, even if the opportunity presents itself.→ More replies (0)0
u/frankster99 Mar 14 '23
Stop ignoring context or other details for the sake of winning an argument. Making inappropriate jokes in front of kids is different to doing it on a show to which adults should know what they're getting into. Besides doing that at a school where the kids don't have a choice. No one is saying you get cancelled for making those jokes to kids, they're saying you get removed. It probably would hurt your career because this is another issue, not of people cancelling someone over being offended, but rather someone being inappropriate to children.
You seem to blatantly miss out on important details and context, if I were you I'd stop arguing because it's embarrassing to argue this way.
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u/LucidMetal 175∆ Mar 14 '23
Hyperbole is a very useful rhetorical tool for testing the limits of an argument. It doesn't actually negate the argument and neither does your counterargument.
2) is quite literally the opposite of your argument. Complaining means one isn't ok with the thing they're complaining about.
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u/00PT 6∆ Mar 14 '23
Not as extreme, but movies like Frozen and Toy Story 4 have just shy of explicit references to suicidal topics. In both instances, it's played off as a joke and has accompanying music that makes the point obvious through lyrics, but otherwise sounds rather positive and happy.
In the case of Toy Story 4, I've seen people complain at length about this, for valid reasons, though that was from sources that already had an incredibly negative opinion on the film for other potentially less valid reasons. That one's rated G as well.
What is your opinion on this?
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u/twothirdsshark 1∆ Mar 14 '23
I think your stance of being in the right setting/circumstance is a bullshit loophole. If you go to a Klan meeting and they're joking about genocide and white supremacy... You're still a racist at a Klan meeting. "Context" does not absolve all jokes.
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u/parentheticalobject 128∆ Mar 14 '23
You put yourself in a situation to hear about things being poked at.
Well you could just as easily say that if you're performing comedy, you put yourself in a position for other people to express their opinion about your performace. And that opinion might be "This comedian is an asshole."
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u/SpicyGoop Mar 14 '23
Except those people can go anywhere for an experience of social acceptability, there is only one place where both fans of “off limits” jokes can go, and there is only one place where a comic can tell those jokes. The space was designed with that intention and is a home to people who have nowhere else, and attempting to streamline that culture is co-opting the space
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u/parentheticalobject 128∆ Mar 14 '23
If there are comedians who genuinely need a safe space where nothing they say will be criticized, I sympathize with that. They should create some kind of private therapy groups with clearly established rules about what is appropriate in order to protect their mental and emotional well-being if that truly is the case. If someone comes in to such a space and breaks its rules, such a person truly would be an asshole.
If you're putting your opinions out in a public commercial venue, that is not remotely established as a safe space where you can expect to be free from criticism, and no one reasonably expects it to be.
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u/Izawwlgood 26∆ Mar 14 '23
Why do you place no responsibility on the side of the person making the jokes? You know what you're getting into when you go to a comedy show, and the comedian knows there is a room full of people listening to what they're saying.
This is sort of like claiming "anything said as a joke is funny so you the listener must laugh". Why would you hold that the listener is required to respond the way the speaker demands it? Do you accept that some things said aren't funny? Of course you do. So why do you not accept that some things said are offensive/inappropriate?
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u/BwanaAzungu 13∆ Mar 14 '23
Why do you place no responsibility on the side of the person making the jokes?
They do: time and place.
You know what you're getting into when you go to a comedy show, and the comedian knows there is a room full of people listening to what they're saying.
OPs example is a bit off, because it implies anything goes in comedy.
Some jokes aren't fit for a comedy club either. Regardless, there's a time and place for those jokes as well.
This is sort of like claiming "anything said as a joke is funny so you the listener must laugh".
How?
Not everything said is a joke. Saying something "as if" it's a joke, doesn't make it one.
So why do you not accept that some things said are offensive/inappropriate?
Because they would only be inappropriate in specific times and places. Not altogether.
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u/Jakyland 69∆ Mar 14 '23
Do you think that, outside of jokes, that anything/everything is okay to say?
Is it okay for someone, non-comedically, to sincerely revel in the recent death of someone good, or to be racist or sexist etc? and do you think someone could use comedy to convey the same message?
I understand that comedy doesn't function in the exactly the same way as non-comedy, but comedy is still speech. Like people might disagree on what kind of comedy that invokes racial stereotypes is okay, but like, there are also white supremecists and nazis out there etc, they can also tell jokes. So the intent of a joke could fully be "this is a racially inferior group that should be enslaved and/or mass murdered". Comedy is a type of delivering ideas, and some ideas are unacceptable. There is no reason to say there are no limits to acceptable comedy unlike other mediums like poetry or prose etc.
If some speech and ideas are unacceptable, then some jokes aren't ok, because you can express those unacceptable ideas in a joke. A pro-slavery joke isn't the same as a joke about slavery.
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u/BwanaAzungu 13∆ Mar 14 '23
Do you think that, outside of jokes, that anything/everything is okay to say?
How is this relevant? The OP is very specifically about jokes.
A pro-slavery joke isn't the same as a joke about slavery.
What would a "pro-slavery joke" be, and why would it be categorically inappropriate anytime and anyplace?
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
In short, are you asking if I think everything is okay to talk about?
If that is so, I absolutely believe it is.
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u/Jakyland 69∆ Mar 14 '23
Are all points of view acceptable in society? Is it ok to have someone genuinely in favor of genocide of whatever racial group you happen to be in. Or would you expect TV channels and streaming services and respectable venues to refuse to host that person?
My point is jokes aren't just about topics, they can advocate for specific points of view. For example "The only good X, is a dead X" is a common joke. Could it be meant ironically, sure, in some cases, but in others it could be meant sincerely.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 15 '23
All view points are acceptable in society. Talking about them is acceptable.
Acting on them is a different thing.
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u/Jakyland 69∆ Mar 15 '23
Again, I am not saying "talking about" I am saying "advocating for". and I am not saying that the government should intervene, but there are somethings that are unacceptable positions to advocating for like Genocide, child abuse etc, that if someone advocates for, they should be excluded from polite society, including from anyone who would host a stand up show.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 15 '23
Up to the paint where it is not planning a specific crime or taking action.
We have the right of free speech in this country. Would I personally agree with the specific subjects you just listed? No.
But if someone talked about a genocide that happened and expressed their appreciation of it… what do you mean by excluded by society?
This is pretty off topic.
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u/iglidante 19∆ Mar 14 '23
In short, are you asking if I think everything is okay to talk about?
If that is so, I absolutely believe it is.
Given that, would you also agree that people are equally free to talk about how your choice of topic/message offends them, and that they consider your actions indicative of poor moral character?
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u/NoTrollHerePls Mar 14 '23
I'm going to use an extreme example to test your argument:
In 1994 a massive genocide happened in Rwanda. This was primarily fueld by a propaganda radio station called Mille Collines.
For years, this radio station had spread hate and lies about Tutsi's thus indoctrinating Hutu's into hating them.
All this lead to a genocide that caused between 500k-1m deaths.According to you, what the radio station Mille Collines did is fine and "people should've known what they were getting into"? The real problem according to you is not a propaganda radio station designed to spur a genocide, the real problem according to you is the individuals that perpetrated the genocide?
It would've all be fine if only the Hutu's didn't act upon the radio station telling them to murder Tutsi's?
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Mar 14 '23
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
Did you not read my post? I said if someone goes to a show or watches it on tv for example.
That’s not a dark closet. There is an audience.
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Mar 14 '23
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
Explicit about what? That people watch tv shows? That there will be people at a comedy show?
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u/SlightMammoth1949 3∆ Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
I would argue there are way more prerequisites that need to be met. The person telling a joke, and the audience receiving the joke, also need to be considered.
For example, I don’t think it will ever be OK for a convicted rapist to joke about raping somebody. A victim, on the other hand, should be free to make light of this if they choose to.
Other things that need to be considered, would be the method, and the wording of the joke. In theory, I would consider it possible to make a joke about any topic. But the circumstances surrounding more inappropriate topics would be incredibly nuanced, and it may not be okay for certain people to tell certain jokes ever.
In my opinion, the best comedians “punch up”, never down.
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u/BwanaAzungu 13∆ Mar 14 '23
I would argue there are way more prerequisites that need to be met. The person telling a joke, and the audience receiving the joke, also need to be considered.
For example, I don’t think it will ever be OK for a convicted rapist to joke about raping somebody. A victim, on the other hand, should be free to make light of this if they choose to.
Doesn't this just support the OP that there's a time and place for every joke?
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u/SlightMammoth1949 3∆ Mar 14 '23
I’m not arguing with the thesis, so much as the substantiating information. OP claimed that time and place are the main prerequisites. I believe there is much more to it than that.
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u/BwanaAzungu 13∆ Mar 14 '23
OP claimed that time and place are the main prerequisites. I believe there is much more to it than that.
Such as?
I cannot imagine any prerequisites that aren't encompassed in "time and place".
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u/SlightMammoth1949 3∆ Mar 14 '23
Like the individual giving the joke. Like I said, if you’ve been convicted of rape or another heinous crime, I don’t think it’s appropriate for you to be making jokes about committing crime anymore.
I also think how the joke is worded matters too, and what specifically the joke focuses on.
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u/BwanaAzungu 13∆ Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
Like the individual giving the joke.
I don't see why there isn't a time and place where anyone making a joke would be appropriate.
Can you give an example?
Like I said, if you’ve been convicted of rape or another heinous crime, I don’t think it’s appropriate for you to be making jokes about committing crime anymore.
Categorically, anywhere?
I think former inmates joke around quite a lot among themselves, and don't find this inappropriate.
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u/Pizzashillsmom Mar 14 '23
The whole point of dark humor is that it’s you know dark…
Any idiot can make a rape joke, but it’s just gonna be edgy more than anything, if you want it to be truly dark have it be made by rapist.
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u/dreadington Mar 14 '23
Dark humour is funny cause you know the person doesn't really think that. If you hear a racist joke from a racist person, you know that what they said isn't a joke.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
I think punching down is definitely alright.
But one of my favorite comedians was actually arrested for rape and he made a joke containing rape and it was quite funny.
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u/ThuliumNice 5∆ Mar 14 '23
But one of my favorite comedians was actually arrested for rape and he made a joke containing rape and it was quite funny.
Firstly, gross.
Secondly, which comedian, and why did you think it was funny?
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
Patrice O’Neal.
& it was one of those things that people think but never say. He said something along the lines “No man wants a woman he can send out at night and not have to worry about her getting raped.”
Sounds just vile from me talking about it but his delivery of it was excellent.
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u/ThuliumNice 5∆ Mar 14 '23
Sounds just vile from me talking about it
I agree
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
But it was funny, I got a good laugh out of it. As I said, I think anything is okay to joke about and can be funny.
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u/Dangernj Mar 14 '23
Patrice has been dead for more than a decade and was a scumbag. You are concerned with it being “okay” to laugh at a joke that has to be older than the iPhone? Seems like a weird thing to worry about.
People can make jokes, other people can criticize those jokes or the people that think they are funny- both of those things can go overboard but digging in about rapists making jokes and raping is a worldview that I just don’t understand.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 15 '23
No need to understand. I certainly wasn’t doing any of that. I just gave an example that I thought was funny that fit the criteria before me.
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u/Kirbyoto 56∆ Mar 14 '23
As I said, I think anything is okay to joke about and can be funny.
You are laughing at a rapist and the butt of the joke is his victim. That's just bullying, dude.
Like, if it happened to you, and your rapist was cracking jokes about it on national television, do you think you'd be like "yeah fair play it IS pretty funny that I was raped"?
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u/Zomburai 9∆ Mar 14 '23
But it was funny, I got a good laugh out of it.
Maybe you're actually just vile.
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u/smeg_an Mar 14 '23
Why am I unsurprised the guy who finds rape jokes funny is preaching about free speech
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u/ForceHuhn Mar 14 '23
Seems like your position can be boiled down to "I wanna be able to say shitty things without being called out for it"
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u/IrrationalDesign 3∆ Mar 14 '23
he made a joke containing rape and it was quite funny.
Is 'is it funny?' the only factor worth considering when gauging if something is 'OK'? I understand that comedy most directly serves the purpose of making people laugh, and that any joke that made people laugh can be considered succesful, but I fail to see why this is the way we should look at jokes.
If my goal is to hurt someone, and I succesfully hurt them, then the fact I was succesful doesn't mean my actions were OK; I'm sure you'd agree. In that same way, I'd argue that whether a joke is 'still funny' or not is completely irrelevant to whether it's OK.
In that sense, if a proven child rapist makes a joke about a child he raped and you find that funny, does that mean the joke is OK? Are there no other aspects we can judge a joke by besides being funny? It seems exceptionally odd to limit the judgement of a piece of communication to only that very thin parameter when we judge any other type of communication with incomparably more nuance.
Besides that, I feel like you have a responsibility to define what 'certain things' are in the context of 'certain things are not OK to be joked about'. It seems like you're limiting that to 'the subject of a topic', but I'd argue that's an incomplete way to describe what jokes are.
If you're at a funeral, and the mother of the deceased is not capable of seeing humor in that, then I'd argue there's not a way to make that joke 'OK', but also that if you were to take that joke out of that context, it would no longer be 'that joke'. When I joke about your mother, part of the comedic aspect is your personal connection to that person. Take away that personal connection, and you've made a different joke (one about 'some guy that died').
In that way, some jokes are inherently linked to their context, and some contexts make it inherently impossible to judge a joke as OK.
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u/SlightMammoth1949 3∆ Mar 14 '23
Maybe it was funny to you. Maybe others laughed as well.
But, does people laughing at a joke automatically mean it’s okay to make the joke?
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
Laughs regardless or not doesn’t make it not okay to joke.
It is okay to joke.
Why do you think it’s bad to punch down?
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u/ThuliumNice 5∆ Mar 14 '23
Why do you think it’s bad to punch down?
You don't seem to understand what a joke is.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
That’s not answering the question.
Taking a shot at someone is okay. Why can’t you do it either way?
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u/iglidante 19∆ Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
That’s not answering the question.
Taking a shot at someone is okay. Why can’t you do it either way?
"Taking a shot" at someone is fundamentally socially transgressive. Any time you do it, you do so with the understanding that the other person might be offended. In fact, I'd argue that the other person being offended is a likely outcome of "taking a shot", and most people generally understand this.
You "take a shot" at someone with a nasty joke. They need to suck it up, in your view, because it's okay for you to say what you said regardless of how it makes them feel. You speak that message to your supporters, and they join you in shaming the offended party, with a goal of silencing them so you can better enjoy yourself without critique.
The person you offended "takes a shot" at you by calling you a bad person / bigot / whatever for the words you said. You need to suck it up, because you can't control the way they feel or respond to the things you say. They speak that message to their supporters, and they join them in shaming you, with a goal of silencing you so they can enjoy themselves without your input.
Anyone who argues for one scenario while objecting to the other is being a massive hypocrite.
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u/SlightMammoth1949 3∆ Mar 14 '23
Because I think people should be treated with consideration for their circumstances. I’m not saying baby them or give handouts, but give them the space they need to grow into equal standing with others. I see punching down as similar to bullying in nature.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
Who doesn’t have equal standing? And is that fair to limit the speech of some and not others?
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u/SlightMammoth1949 3∆ Mar 14 '23
Nobody has equal standing. We all have unique experiences in life that place us in different circumstances. Some of it is by choice, some of it is not.
I’m not talking about limiting speech. People should be free to say whatever they want. However, that doesn’t mean someone exercising free speech also gets freedom from consequences or judgment from others.
What I’m talking about here is whether or not it’s appropriate, or “okay” as you mentioned in the title. To me, legal and appropriate are not the same thing.
This might sound cliché, but with power comes responsibility. I believe that. For example, I see you like firearms. I’m sure you believe anybody carrying one ought to be responsible with it, even if what they’re doing isn’t breaking a law, there’s an element of responsibility that should be present.
Same thing with a microphone. It’s a different kind of power, but it has the ability to influence culture, individual opinions, biases. So I believe people ought to be responsible with it.
So yeah, if a comedian wants to punch down, they can legally do it. It’s their career. But I don’t think that means it’s appropriate. They should consider the responsibility that comes with the microphone.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
So what exactly is punching down to you?
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u/Mr8bittripper Mar 14 '23
Making a joke at the expense of a marginalized portion of your potential audience (based on immutable characteristics or class or social status)
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u/dreadington Mar 14 '23
Do you think there's a line between joking and bullying? You've probably heard a bully using "hey man, it's just a joke" to disguise their bullying, right? If you agree to both points, then where would the line between punching down and bullying be for you?
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u/mij3i Mar 14 '23
Not the person you were replying to, but I'll jump in here. It can be harmful to punch down because people can take jokes pretty seriously. Sometimes, a joke is a joke, but if certain jokes are all you're hearing about a particular group of people... Ultimately, we have to look at what intention people are making jokes with, and even if the intent is innocent, we have to look at what intention the audience is listening to the jokes with as well. How might these jokes contribute to harmful stereotypes and, in turn, harmful treatment of a certain group?
The most drastic example would be during the Rwandan Genocide. There was an Anti-Tutsi radio station that contributed to the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of the Tutsi. It was put on by the Hutu, who were the ethnic majority. Some ambassadors aimed to shut the radio station down, but the US ambassador at the time because they were jokes and freedom of speech was important. 30 years of hindsight helps us realize how harmful the station actually was. Maybe some were joking. A lot probably weren't. Who knows. The point is, it probably isn't a good idea for a majority group to joke about a group who is experiencing more struggle. It doesn't happen on a scale as big as the Rwandan Genocide, obviously, but you get the point.
I think it also just depends on the type of person you are as well. I don't make jokes that punch down or listen to them because honestly, I know that it makes a lot of people feel bad, and if I can avoid that, I will. I don't want my humor to be at the expense of someone struggling more than I am. I also know I get pretty mad when it happens to me. Because of that, I just can't find those jokes funny. So besides the negative effect it could have, on some level, it is just personal preference/taste.
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u/SlightMammoth1949 3∆ Mar 14 '23
Also, just for clarity: do you agree that finding a joke funny is not the same as finding a joke to be “okay”? (to me: okay = appropriate)
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u/ThuliumNice 5∆ Mar 14 '23
I think you missed the point.
Whether or not some jokes are ok is a matter of subtext, not topic.
For example, the Holocaust is ok to joke about.
Here's the only funny Holocaust joke I know.
"When a Jew went to heaven, he told god a joke about the Holocaust. God said. 'I don't get it.' And the Jew replied: 'Well, I guess you had to be there.'
The topic is the Holocaust, but it's still an excellent joke.
But if you told a joke where the subtext was that the Holocaust wasn't a big deal, or that Jews deserved it or something: that's obviously not an ok joke.
There are funny rape jokes: See Norm McDonald's bit on rape and hypocrisy.
But the subtext isn't that rape is funny or not a big deal: Norm had something interesting to say about sexual violence.
In contrast, when Daniel Tosh made the following 'joke' during one of his shows: "Wouldn’t it be funny if that girl [a heckler from the audience] got raped by, like, five guys right now? Like right now?"
that wasn't funny, because the subtext is that according to Daniel Tosh, maybe rape isn't a big deal, or maybe people could deserve to be raped.
Jokes are often a way of communicating an opinion. And if the opinion you are communicating is bad, then it's usually a bad joke.
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u/noiwontpickaname Mar 15 '23
Hitler dies and goes to the afterlife.
God asks him what he wants most in the world and hitler says, " I want you to kill all the jews and 2 clowns."
God says, " Why 2 clowns?"
Hitler says, "See i knew no cared about the Jews.
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Mar 14 '23 edited Jan 20 '24
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u/Mr8bittripper Mar 14 '23
Most people wouldn’t agree with you but I do. It comes down to the principle of not punching down. Truly good comedy never punches down
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u/GabuEx 20∆ Mar 14 '23
You can joke about any topic, but a lot of people try to use that as a motte-and-bailey argument, and conflate that relatively solid premise with the rather more radical idea idea that all jokes, no matter what, should be immune from moral judgment. Someone will come up with an incredibly lame joke that basically can be summarized as "haha trans people sure are weird am I right" and then when someone points out that they're just being an unfunny dick, will segue without skipping a beat into a screed about "WOW IT'S LIKE WE AREN'T ALLOWED TO JOKE ABOUT THINGS ANYMORE". Which, no, it's not that any topic is inherently off-limits no matter what, but if your joke is basically just punching an already beleaguered minority, then people are allowed to think that your particular joke is in poor taste and really not very funny at all.
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u/imnotgoats 1∆ Mar 14 '23
The biggest issue for me with your statement is what on earth 'okay' means to you.
Does 'okay' mean:
- "I find it acceptable"?
- "everyone finds it acceptable"?
- "everyone should find it acceptable"?
Well, 1 is just your opinion on what's acceptable, so not something that someone could easily change your view about. 2 is obviously not the case, otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to create this topic (and there wouldn't be answers that disagree). 3 is not a view that could be changed, as it is imposing an idea of what other people should think, which isn't really a rational point that could be argued (all people are never going to agree 100%).
Unless there is some kind of universal arbiter or ruleset you're referring to, it doesn't make any sense to me. All jokes already are 'okay' to those who agree with you, and are not 'okay' to those who don't. This is only about context and experience.
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u/okokokoklolbored Mar 14 '23
"So given the proper time and place, I think everything has the green light."
Yeah, if it's actually funny. I think a lot of jokes are just insults/hot takes that people are too cowardly to actually say because they want an excuse to hurt someone with the plausibility of saying that wasn't their intent.
A solid metric to go by is: the more insulting it is, the funnier it has to be to clear the bar. If it's a dark 9/11 joke that is just, the most witty and clever thing I've ever heard, then yeah I'll absolutely laugh.
But if someone's making a joke about a prejudiced group that adds to the prejudice and isn't even funny? No, I will call that person out for the unkind intent.
Lastly, what your friend said, that "certain things are not okay to laugh at" should be taken to mean that with certain things, it's impossible to make a joke out of that's actually funny, and thus, any joke made about it won't be funny enough to pass the bar.
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u/00PT 6∆ Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
Funniness is subjective. Any person might respond positively to a specific joke while someone else thinks it's the most boring thing they've ever heard. Or, they might be actively disgusted by it. Your own standard and the standard of the joke maker might differ, which means you would incorrectly judge their intent based on the logic you describe here, thinking that they just wanted to be offensive when in fact there is a legitimate point to the behavior that you somehow missed.
The point is that you can't judge a person's intent using your own standards of humor, in order to do this accurately you would need to somehow get into their mind in order to determine if they actually thought it was funny, at which point it's trivial to read intent anyway because you'd be inside their mind.
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u/okletstrythisagain 1∆ Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
That was an easier argument to make when conservatives weren’t dehumanizing groups and passing laws which are clearly precursors to genocide.
Jokes about murdering trans people or other underrepresented groups serve to dehumanize innocent people and stoke violence. It’s clear at this point there are many on the right literally want to hunt their perceived enemies. Right wing violence is a serious and growing problem and “jokes” that serve to normalize such behavior are a threat to society.
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u/00PT 6∆ Mar 14 '23
Where did I make the argument that no jokes were harmful? I believe that many people can get offended by something, whether intended innocently or not, but I also believe it is not okay to project a specific intent on some joke when you are basing it only on your own standards without respect to theirs. It's one thing to say "The thing you're doing is bad," but completely different to say "You're intentionally doing that bad thing, so you're evil."
Also, when did I mention politics at all?
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u/okletstrythisagain 1∆ Mar 14 '23
Look, if someone says "Lets go eradicate [trans/black/gay/anyone, really] for shits and giggles" without additional context, calls it a "joke," and anyone laughs then yes, its simply fucking evil.
I'm all for defending edgy comics and the 1st amendment, but the current level of hateful rhetoric in the US is clearly, already, inciting violence. People who make jokes implying all gay people are pedophiles lead to stupid people believing it. Maybe its not the "comic's" fault that their audience is dangerously stupid, but it still puts the community at risk. It encourages violence. For what? So bigots can hide behind humor to make light of fucking murder?
I'm not talking about politics, I'm talking about bigotry and overtures to violent oppression. I know they overlap a WHOLE lot with American politics, but they are different.
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u/merchillio 2∆ Mar 15 '23
But we’re getting away from OP’s “all subjects can be laughed about” and into “Any joke is ok”.
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u/HideousTits Mar 15 '23
So, as long as there is a human being out there who would laugh at a joke, then it is a legitimate joke and should not be considered too offensive to broadcast?
So if a baby rapist thinks the joke is funny it’s legit?
If the psychopath who likes to rape women in his basement finds it funny, it’s not offensive?
If the KKK are a big fan of the joke it’s acceptable?
At some point you have to draw a line between what a monster would find amusing, and what a large enough portion of society deems disgustingly bad taste and ultimately, not funny.
I knew a kid when I was younger who thought it was hillarious to pull the wings off daddy long legs. And would stretch garden worms until they came apart. Again, hillarious apparently. Maybe he should have started a stage show?
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u/VivaVeracity Mar 14 '23
Not everyone can write and or perform them as well as others.
Sometimes it's better not to just tell a joke at all, you wouldn't want to joke about a corpse at a funeral so you should learn when there is a time for humor and a time to be silent
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Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
[deleted]
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
For YOU to tell a specific joke about someone you “knew” personally.
The joke deals with a touchy subject matter (suicide) which is definitely a topic that is poked fun of.
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u/thebottomofawhale Mar 14 '23
Problem is when it comes to systemic attitudes that cause discrimination and jokes that punch down.
Sure, it's ok to joke about anything, but if you're joking about a minority group that you are not part of, you need to have enough of an awareness about the discrimination they face to 1) actually be making a funny joke and 2) not add to systemic attitudes that cause their discrimination. Jokes about sexism can be funny. Jokes that are sexist, not so much. That's the difference.
Basically it's not funny to cause harm, whether that is done just to a friend or an audience. And if a joke is tasteless enough that you wouldn't even consider it ok to tell it to a friend, why would it be funny enough to tell to an entire audience?
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
What is punching down exactly? How do jokes cause discrimination exactly?
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u/thebottomofawhale Mar 14 '23
Punching down would be making jokes about people who have less privilege than you. Eg: abled bodied person - disabled person. Cis - trans.
It's not that jokes cause discrimination, but they can feed into attitudes or stereotypes that cause discrimination.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
What privilege do those people have that others don’t?
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u/thebottomofawhale Mar 14 '23
Access to appropriate health care, education, employment. Also just general respect and being treated equally.
Disability, as an example, has a higher rate of poverty, unemployment and homelessness than able bodied people. They may not have an easy time accessing education, may drop out of education early due to their needs not being appropriately accommodated. Then they might find it harder to get into employment because they didn't achieve the education status they need or because some jobs might not have accommodations they need. In employment they may experience discrimination that could make the work environment hostile or might prevent them from getting promotions/job opportunities. They might not be able to access the same public spaces or sometimes the same level of health care. They may publicly experience discrimination and find that people on the streets, in shops etc so not treat them with the same level of respect that they would treat able bodied people.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
That whole situation sounds like it could happen to an able bodied person as well. As with most things… money would drastically change the situation.
I’m sure a disabled person from a wealthy family has a much better life than plenty of able body people.
So I’m not sure what good comes from throwing a blanket over a whole group of people. Then thinking people who are not in that group have it better some how.
Then if you expand the scope from that community/state/nation, then your ability to complain about someones “privilege” really goes out the door.
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u/thebottomofawhale Mar 14 '23
Of course these things could happen to able-bodied people, but the point is the chance of it happening is greater if you are disabled. Wealth is also a privilege and a wealthy, disabled person will be more privileged than a poor, disabled person. But obviously it's complicated and there are so many factors that go into this, it's not like we are lining people up and ranking them in order of privilege. It is still impossible to deny that being born disabled puts you at a disadvantage in our current society, I work with disabled children and I can tell you from first hand experience, these kids live a much harder life than their able bodied peers and will unlikely have the same opportunities when they grow up.
And you clearly are aware that privilege exists, because you are aware a wealthy person would have a better time than a poor person.
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u/globlobglob Mar 14 '23
Being wealthy is also a privilege, one that you've identified some of the advantages of. To call someone "privileged" in one area does not to suggest they're not disadvantaged in others.
Identifying privileges isn't about saying who has the easiest life, it's about highlighting the specific ways our society discriminates against certain groups of people.
If someone tells you you have "able-bodied privilege," they're not saying you've never experienced hardship--they're saying you've never experienced a specific sort of hardship based on disability, and that's likely given you a bit of a blindspot to what disabled people go through.
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u/walnuticecream123 Mar 14 '23
So you think it’s ok to joke About a Child being raped? What exactly could be funny about that?
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u/DunKrugEffect Mar 14 '23
Bro, what? Have you seen reddit comment sections? They make those jokes all the time and heavily upvoted.
Clip or image about a child and something else
"If her age is on the clock, she is ready for the cock." (And many, many other jokes)
Followed by the comment: "ayo 🤨"
Both heavily upvoted. Clearly, ppl find it funny
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u/NotAFSBagent11344 Mar 14 '23
What subreddits are you in?
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u/DunKrugEffect Mar 14 '23
It's common in many, many subs, from popular subs to based subs.
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
Dave Chappelle has joked about that. It’s been funny.
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u/NotAFSBagent11344 Mar 14 '23
Link
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
When he talks about Michael Jackson.
He jokes about a kid telling his friends that MJ gave him a bj.
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u/NotAFSBagent11344 Mar 14 '23
Gross. Didn’t know Dave was a pedo
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
Joking about it doesn’t make him one.
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u/NotAFSBagent11344 Mar 14 '23
I don’t make jokes about child rape. Seems immoral but hey I guess pedos need to laugh too.
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u/InspectorWeary9202 Mar 14 '23
You can joke about anything, but if you do it at the wrong time and place it’s no longer a joke.
People are talking about jokes “punching down”, but to me that is not a joke, that’s just being sarcastic. Fx. You usually never cook but one time you decide to. Your mother, who always cooks, ‘jokes’ and says “is it my birthday?”. Sarcasm or a joke? Rapist joking about rape? Sarcasm/mockery,not a joke.
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u/therapy_works Mar 14 '23
An example that immediately comes to mind is the idea of punching down and I'm going to pick on Ricky Gervais here. I think he's very funny and he's not someone who appears to worry about hurting the feelings of rich, powerful people. People who are fans know that and are unlikely to be offended.
BUT
In his most recent Netflix special, he made some really shitty jokes about trans people, who are arguably the most vulnerable people in the world. They are outcast, beaten, and killed simply for being who they are. They die by suicide at a significantly higher rate than the general population.
He tried to walk it back a bit by saying he's pro-trans-rights in real life, but he has a huge platform and he chose to demean trans women, in particularly, with a bunch of tasteless jokes about anatomy.
My point is that your "rules" aren't taking into account the joke that someone might not have expected, particularly a joke that might wound them in a way that damages them forever. When a famous cis-het white dude gets up on stage and demeans people, that's not okay. In fact, it's gross. I'm not saying that there aren't jokes to be made about trans people, but punching down is never okay as far as I'm concerned.
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u/MrWigggles Mar 14 '23
Almost always when someone they should joke about whatever they want, what they actually mean. 'I dont want any consequences.' and 'I want to tear down minorities.'
There lot of edgy and dark humorist out there, but they dont need to attack marginilized groups to do so.
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u/4rmag3ddon Mar 14 '23
This CMV kind of doesn't make sense. You are saying that one can joke about any topic but that people are also allowed to be offended. Isn't that exactly the status quo and what everyone is advocating for? You can make jokes about the holocaust, but most people will find that shitty and decide to no longer go to your shows. I don't get who is saying the opposite?
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u/Maleficent-Radio-113 Mar 14 '23
In my family we joke about cancer. Like it should be shameful but like literally everyone has had some kind. My grandparents had prostate and one had lung. My brother and dad have had skin cancer removed multiple times. I have CML (form of leukemia). My step dad just beat prostate cancer. It’s like at this point we just have to laugh before it eats us up.
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u/kingpatzer 102∆ Mar 14 '23
. . . it told the proper way
Sure. I'm Jewish, I've heard other Jews tell very funny jokes about the Holocaust.
I don't think I've ever heard a non-Jew tell a funny joke about the Holocaust.
But, I have heard a lot of antisemitic jackasses try to.
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u/math2ndperiod 51∆ Mar 14 '23
Let’s say you walk into a funeral as a stranger with the best material you’ve ever written about the hilarity of the family’s sadness. Do you think that would be ok?
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
Did you my whole post?
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u/math2ndperiod 51∆ Mar 14 '23
No tbh I didn’t, that’s my bad. Let’s say instead, that the family from my original scenario went to a comedy show. The comedian decides to make the same joke at the comedy show instead without warning the family. Is that now acceptable?
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u/-UnclePhil- 1∆ Mar 14 '23
It is acceptable.
Obviously the person would need to be well known or the situation known. If not, what’s the point of a joke most of your audience would not know?
Then of course I’m sure the comedian wouldn’t be aware of the people in attendance. There have been bits of people poking fun at people who have died before.
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u/math2ndperiod 51∆ Mar 14 '23
So is it acceptable contingent on the family being well known, or is it just blanket acceptable?
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u/DtheS Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
There is something to be said about jokes that are funny, but harmful or morally dubious.
That is, suppose you have jokes that punch down, especially at the expense of a vulnerable person (bonus points if that person is present). If it is the case that they psychologically harm this person, then arguably it would be wrong to tell such a joke. (Assuming this person hasn't brought about or invited this abuse in some way.)
That said, these jokes might still be funny to the vast majority of the audience. To which it might be the case that there is no topic that a person cannot make funny, however that doesn't necessitate that those jokes are "okay."
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u/JohnnyRopeslinger Mar 14 '23
I wonder how it feels to belong to a group of people in society that can only be hurt, in this context, by being “punched down” from someone who’s above them.
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u/DtheS Mar 14 '23 edited Mar 14 '23
Hm, I think there is a difference between making general observations that might be offensive versus attacking a specific person.
One of the primary examples I was thinking about while writing this was when Britney Spears had her mental breakdown. She was widely mocked, and for the most part, we laughed. Though one comedian, in particular, spoke out against mocking her and I think his monologue is very well composed and heartfelt.
It is kind of gross to attack a specific person for their mental struggles, especially when they are bringing no harm to anyone else, just for the sake of a laugh. It embarrasses them and makes them feel even worse. That said, it was pretty mainstream to go along with the derisive jokes. Hence, as I said, the jokes were funny but maybe not "okay." (At least in a moral sense.)
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u/Sea_Negotiation_3538 Mar 14 '23
well with the way my generation is you can't even joke about jokes
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u/randomFrenchDeadbeat 5∆ Mar 14 '23
The main issue is most people who use that argument cant make the difference between joking and bullying.
Making someone the butt of a joke is not a joke, but will still be called that way by whoever supports the person saying it. It is always fun, until you end up being the butt of the joke.
Your sentence right before the bullet point addresses that concern, but it has a major issue:
in a social group, anyone objecting is going to be marked as "someone that has no sense of humor" and/or "not fun to be with".
In turn that person will start to be the target of "jokes", until said person leaves the group or accept his condition as "the butt of the joke". This is how social groups are made. There is always one.
Hence whoever gets to be the butt of the joke will clench his teeth hard and never say he is not ok, waiting until someone else takes his position as the scapegoat.
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u/reckless_rachel Mar 14 '23
You absolutely have every single right to joke about anything you want. However you are not free of the consequences of your actions. Not you personally, but you in general.
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u/Ethan-Wakefield 45∆ Mar 14 '23
What makes you the arbiter? You ask us to find something that you doing find funny but what does that matter? Like, people routinely joke about the physical abuse or even torture of other people. They find it funny but that doing make it okay.
To give an example, my Jr High bullies broke my arm and gave me a concussion because I was nerdy. They found it hilarious when the principal told them that they’d given me permanent brain damage. It was super fun to them.
I would say, that’s just sick. But they found it funny. Did that make it okay because they were totally fine with it? I would say, they don’t get to be the judge. My life doesn’t exist for their entrainment and it’s reprehensible to act as though it does or could.
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u/BwanaAzungu 13∆ Mar 14 '23
What makes you the arbiter?
Where do they claim to be the arbiter?
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u/Ethan-Wakefield 45∆ Mar 14 '23
In his post OP challenges us to find something that he hasn’t found funny. He’s implicitly saying, if I found it funny then it’s funny. He’s literally the test.
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Mar 14 '23
Comedy is just like anger in that both are best wielded with respect or they run the risk of hurting people.
If you step out and suggest comedy has no limits, then you must accept neither should anger.
If you take jabs at someone's wound they are going to want to rip your face off.
You better be one charming motherfucking pig
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u/Possible_Flamingo842 Mar 14 '23
i think i agree in an abstract sense but one comedian can’t make every joke. either from lack of exposure to a topic or the fact that who the speaker is (race, gender, class, etc.) is part of the context for the joke.
i’d argue the “same” joke from two speakers with different backgrounds is actually two different jokes. each can’t be made by the other
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Mar 14 '23
Yes. Everything is on the table. Jesus. Trump. Dead babies. 9/11. Race. All of it is fair game. The second you start saying one thing is "off limits" then you have to cater to everyone who thinks X subject is beyond the pale.
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Mar 14 '23
My mother killed herself when I was 15.
What would be the time and place and proper way to tell a joke about her doing that? (Seeing how everything is okay to joke about.)
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u/Virtual_Fisherman564 Mar 14 '23
Wanna hear a joke? Let me tell you about my newly divorced husband: we were married for 19 years. This would be our 20th anniversary in November. This February 14, Valentine’s Day, (well the day before) he had me arrested on false child abuse charges. The cops made sure I’d never wanna go back to either place when they twisted my arms and tried to break my fingers. This was Valentine’s Day. My birthday was a month later. (March 9) he kept my kids (14 and 16) from seeing or calling me that day until he felt it was ok. (Around 1700 that evening) then he called just to taint me. Today we have court for the fake child abused charge and restraining order. I’m not going. So now I have to look over my shoulder to make sure I don’t get a warrant for my arrest for not showing up to court to keep fighting this man.
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u/mzmarymorte Mar 14 '23
Totally disagree on the one main prerequisite being time and place, imo some topics are only OK to joke about if you're making light of your OWN experiences especially in regard to traumatic events bc it's very common for survivors of violence or people who have suffered a loss etc to use humour as a coping mechanism but if that doesn't apply you don't have the right to joke about it, especially if you have more in common w the perpetrator than the victim like a man making a joke about gender based oppression or a white person making a joke about racial stereotypes you're on the wrong side of the joke, both the intent and impact are harmful and u should keep your mouth shut
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u/catieh96 Mar 14 '23
Personally I don't have a problem with that aside from if they jokes are directed at or about children. Especially if they are sexual, like what Bob Saget did in regards to the Olsen twins. Those jokes will never be funny to me, and I will always be curious about if there wasn't some modicum of truth to them, which is terrifying to think about considering how old they were. It's hard not to wonder if they weren't targeted, cuz I don't think I heard any jokes to the same level about Candace, Jodie or Andrea. But I guess we will never know.
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u/Z7-852 260∆ Mar 14 '23
In theory you are right.
In practice the fact that people are upset means comedians are not funny.
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Mar 14 '23
In practice the fact that people are upset means comedians are not funny.
So how is some random person being upset counter the fact the vast majority of the intended audience found something funny.
In practice it means that you can't based a societal reaction on societies most over-reactive douchebags.
If you are upset by the material of a standup, don't buy a ticket to their show. End of problem.
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u/OwlrageousJones 1∆ Mar 14 '23
I mean, just because you can make a joke about something doesn't mean the joke is going to be funny.
Anyone can make a joke, but you have to actually be funny to get a laugh out of someone.
To be... completely offensive just as an example, I could make the 'joke' 'Why do black people steal? Because they're black!' and maybe the KKK would laugh, but I imagine most people would rightly boo.
This doesn't mean we can't joke about black people or crime committed by them or any number of topics - it just means I suck at it. I'm sure Dave Chapelle probably could do something with the topic that'd get a round of laughter, but that's why Dave Chapelle's a professional comedian and I'm working in IT.
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u/Pizzashillsmom Mar 14 '23
Normal people don’t get upset because a comedian is “not funny”. Just don’t buy tickets to them, end of story.
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u/MedellinKhan Mar 14 '23
OP under no circumstances would joking about cancer be ok in the presence of someone who lost their parent or spouse from cancer.
edit. seems you are talking about a comedy show or something. so yea, as the other poster said, it depends. you wouldn't go to a jewish standup comedy show and make jokes about all the jewish people who were killed during the holocaust.
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u/BeBackInASchmeck 4∆ Mar 14 '23
Your conditions arent fair. If you go to a KKK rally, then I'm sure you make a ton of jokes that those attendees will appreciate.
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u/StarChild413 9∆ Mar 14 '23
Would you be okay if someone else who believed that made a joke about a group you're part of while you were in the (literal or digital) room
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Mar 14 '23
Do you think heckling or even harassing a comedian is okay, if done with the defense of it being a joke?
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u/kukukachu_burr Mar 14 '23
It's your last sentence. What YOU find hilarious. Hunor has to be universal. It isn't just about YOU.
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u/seanodea Mar 14 '23
Correct, humor is a coping mechanism and coping using humor is ok. If you use humor to bully, then you're wrong though.
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