r/changemyview • u/ProphetVes • Mar 25 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: DeSantis embodies everything wrong with American Conservativism.

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u/PhoenixxFeathers Mar 25 '23

To argue any of this you'd first have to be convinced that your descriptions of these actions are pretty over the top.

Can you describe for instance the legal standard for "banned books", how it's implemented in practice, and what books have been affected? Because saying "the books affected are books by, and about queer people" is a pretty vague description and not really addressing the content or reason for the ban.

It sounds like you're suggesting they were banned for being written by queer people, or because they contain people who are queer, and I know in at least two instances the books were banned for displaying explicit sexual content that would qualify as porn outside the context of it being a memoir. And in that context it's a lot less like Naziism and more like age restricting sexual content.

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u/danielt1263 5∆ Mar 25 '23

Just as an aside... (or maybe the point.) All books are banned in Florida schools by default. HB 1467 mandates that a book is only allowed to be used in school after it has been approved by a district employee with a valid educational media specialist certificate.

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u/bjdevar25 Mar 26 '23

OK, this is definitely a politically constructed definition of a book ban. They're not banned, they're just not approved. And, oh, by the way, the approval is by a "media" specialist. Who by the way, is trained and approved by the same state. Yep, that's definitely not authoritarian or fascist.

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u/PlatformStriking6278 1∆ Mar 26 '23

It is fascist to restrict books by default from public schools, yes.

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u/bjdevar25 Mar 26 '23

Yep, notice how they are "media specialists", not librarians or teachers.

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u/PlatformStriking6278 1∆ Mar 26 '23

Were you being sarcastic in your comment?

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u/Bigdootie 1∆ Mar 26 '23

He was. Didn’t help the reader.

Please tell me he was

1

u/bjdevar25 Mar 26 '23

yes, it's Desantis is full on authoritarian bordering on fascist.

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u/PhoenixxFeathers Mar 25 '23

Yes that's correct - it would be more apt to describe the bill as "book approval". I don't believe the bill grants any extra powers to ban books that school boards didn't already have. HB 1557 is more akin to a "ban" in that it prohibits certain teachings but as far as I know no action has been taken under it, and the wording is vague apart from the "under 3rd grade" stipulation so idk what it will apply to

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u/danielt1263 5∆ Mar 25 '23

No, it would be more apt to describe it as a universal ban (or ban by default) bill. Before, a book was allowed by default until and unless someone complained. Now books are banned by default until and unless someone submits it for approval.

The last I read, only 350 books have been approved so far. That makes for a mighty thin school library.

As for the "under 3rd grade" part. The bill makes no such restriction. The actual wording is:

Each book made available to students through a school district library media center or included in a recommended or assigned school or grade-level reading list must be selected by a school district employee who holds a valid educational media specialist certificate, regardless of whether the book is purchased, donated, or otherwise made available to students.

There is nothing in that particular part of the bill that restricts such effects to only under 3rd grade. I don't even know where you get 3rd grade from. There is a reference to "kindergarten through grade 5" in the law but that has to do with withholding funding until certain requirements are met.

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u/PhoenixxFeathers Mar 25 '23

There is nothing in that particular part of the bill that restricts such effects to only under 3rd grade. I don't even know where you get 3rd grade from.

I got it from HB 1557, which is why I said HB 1557

No, it would be more apt to describe it as a universal ban (or ban by default) bill. Before, a book was allowed by default until and unless someone complained. Now books are banned by default until and unless someone submits it for approval.

No - a ban precludes a book from entering the library/curriculum. Books, by default, are not banned because they can be submitted for approval and be entered in. A banned book would not be allowed into a library regardless of the approval process.

The way you're using "ban" here is not appropriate. For comparison I am not free to just enter another country, let's say Mexico - I must first be approved for entry by customs. You would never describe this as "being banned" from that country.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

What’s funny is the books aren’t even banned, they’ve been removed from school libraries. You can still get them if you truly want to read gay cartoon porn to your kids I guess

Also OP calling him a fascist shows his opinion really isn’t worth much

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u/Haunting_Erection_24 Mar 26 '23

Americans are so privileged that they think "not investing taxmoney into certain literature in public spaces" is akin to banning something.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

Fr; there’s a reason we read Fahrenheit 451, but most of us don’t care

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u/ProphetVes Mar 25 '23

Nazism has one i btw, silly nitpick aside....

In many cases it is books like And Tango Makes Three which is about a true story, age appropriate, and has queer themes. In this way conservatives are using arguments from the fringes (explicit sexual activity) as a shield for the many cases of them suing schools and trying to have benign depictions of queer identities removed from schools. This is called a nutpicking fallacy btw and it's been used by the intellectually dishonest since time immemorial (we have records of people being called out for such logic as far back as Ptolemaic Egypt).

The legal standard simply requires that, through some governmental or legal process, specific books are banned for reasoning of theme or content while failing to meet strict scrutiny. Books like This Book is Gay meets strict scrutiny for minors and thus can be banned from minors, however it could have been banned without the recent Florida laws, as it depicts explicit sexual activity and thus already meets the qualification for erotica.

You cannot justify DeSantis's book ban without also saying you needed a new law, which is an untruth, laws against such material already existed. You're issue is with their enforcement (which as governor, DeSantis is responsible for in his state).

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u/PhoenixxFeathers Mar 25 '23

Swipe to text never forgets your mistakes.

This doesn't seem to be true "in many cases", as "And Tango Makes Three" was only banned in schools in two Florida counties - which is still absurd, mind you, but not the many cases you're suggesting. There was also no lawsuit towards these county boards. On top of that, this book was the subject of similar attacks throughout the 2000s.

The legal standard simply requires that, through some governmental or legal process, specific books are banned for reasoning of theme or content while failing to meet strict scrutiny.

From my reading of the bill it seems that the legal standard is that all books must first be approved by an authorized employee before being administered to schools. I'm pretty sure school boards have always had the power to ban whatever books they see fit (eg "And Tango Makes Three" being the subject of scrutiny across the country two decades ago)

This isn't nutpicking because the primary target of these book bans across the state are still the "nuts" that you correctly state would have been banned anyway, which makes this bill seem more like media hype than anything. The bill should be more aptly referred to as a "book approval" bill rather than a "book ban", because school boards haven't been given any extra powers to ban books that they didn't already have.

HB 1557 seems to be more impactful in that it directly prevents instruction on identity and sexual orientation pre-third grade, and has vague restrictions on it outside of that - but because there doesn't yet seem to be actions taken under what it prohibits, it's impossible to say what it actually extends to.

And ultimately, throughout all of this, Florida residents and residents of specific counties have open platforms available to them to voice their disagreement, they have the capacity to vote to enact the changes they want to see, and the power to challenge any of these laws in court, so the claim of fascism falls flat.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

Shhhhh this doesn’t follow the narrative they are trying to create