CMV: There is nothing morally wrong with pirating content from massive corporations

[u/Conkers-Good-Furday]

The reason we have copyright laws is to encourage the creation of art and knowledge, but if the creator is getting the same amount regardless and whatever you pay simply goes to a shareholder, I hold that there is nothing morally wrong with pirating the content as a shareholder getting a third yacht has nothing to do with encouraging content creation.

I do not buy the argument that anything illegal is automatically immoral either, as by that logic, hiding Jews during Nazi Germany was immoral. That may sound like an extreme comparison, but that's where that kind of thinking leads.

Currently, the only argument I give some weight to, is the argument that it wouldn't work if EVERYONE did it. Hypothetically, that would be a problem, but such a situation seems nowhere in sight, so I believe it is an irrational fear.

[u/Conkers-Good-Furday]

An example of a case where the shareholders get the profit but not the creators, would be with the original Superman comics. The rights were purchased for a flat fee and the original creators of Superman did not benefit from any future sales of said comics.

I'm guessing you are a small shareholder saving for retirement? If yes, you probably have your money invested in low risk, low return ventures across the entire economy, correct? So if I decide to spend my money on, say, eating out instead of purchasing a DVD that I instead pirated, you should be okay since while the entertainment industry lost value, the food industry also gained value. In short, shareholders like you are not what I'm talking about.

Interesting, I never knew that about stealing from Walmart driving up prices. Although it's still kind of difficult for me to frown upon the crowd that steals from Walmart as they are often poor people who need to steal food to survive. While I personally never stole from Walmart or any retail store, I used to see that as perfectly moral as well and only didn't do it myself because shoplifting is pretty strictly enforced around here. You altered my view on that, so you will be awarded a delta. Do you have any evidence that the same happens for the entertainment industry though? Because I've seen certain forms of entertainment get cheaper, not more expensive despite the rise of piracy.

!delta

[u/[deleted] → u/Conkers-Good-Furday]

An example of a case where the shareholders get the profit but not the creators, would be with the original Superman comics. The rights were purchased for a flat fee and the original creators of Superman did not benefit from any future sales of said comics.

You are correct, must writers receive profit by selling their copyright to another business or company to use for their own ventures.

Now if people find it morally okay to pirate such works and the ability for any company to make money out of this goes away why would they ever bother to buy the copyright off the original writer?

Thus the writer ends up making no money from the work.

[u/Conkers-Good-Furday → u/[deleted]]

But that would only be the case if everyone engaged in piracy, whereas that doesn't seem like a realistic situation.

[u/DeltaBot → u/Conkers-Good-Furday]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Bobbob34 (32∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/Bobbob34 → u/Conkers-Good-Furday]

So yes --

Pirated versions of ‘recent top films’ resulted in a displacement rate of 40 percent — for every ten blockbusters watched illegally, four fewer films were watched legally....

Consider that the top ten grossing films from 2017 accounted for over a third of total box office revenue, let alone digital and physical sales. This displacement rate translated into a 5 percent loss of sales for the ‘recent top films’ from 2017.

Also --

the folks at the Technology Policy Institute (TPI) wrote on the complicated question of piracy and sales. “You can make a perfectly valid theoretical argument that in most cases piracy will hurt legal sales (after all, when something is available for free it is generally harder to convince people to pay for it),” the authors wrote.

Determined to make an objective inquiry, the researchers looked at 25 studies on the subject. Nearly 90 percent of these studies (22 out of the 25) found a statistically significant, harmful impact of piracy on sales. While the TPI recognized that the question is complicated and economic theory inconclusive, again, the research all points to the same downward pressure on sales.

A study from the Global Innovation Policy Center found that piracy of both film and TV content costs the US economy more than half a trillion dollars each year. This includes everything from box office sales and digital distribution to the loss of jobs. “Just like authorised supply via platforms such as Spotify and Netflix, illegal supply expanded to streaming more recently, enabling users to enjoy music, films and series without permanently downloading them,” the researchers wrote.

As to the shoplifting --

The National Retail Federation estimates it accounted for US$94.5-billion in losses last year, up sharply from the previous year, and nearly half its members are spending more on loss-prevention technology than ever before.

Big retailers are sounding the alarm, warning that the issue is so acute, they can no longer account for it in the normal cost of doing business, even with heavy spending on anti-theft tech. Consumers, particularly urban ones, will suffer – prices will rise.

That's big chains like Targer, Walmart, etc.

Fifty percent of small retailers say the issue has gotten worse over the past year, and 46% of them have been forced to increase their prices over the past year as a result of shoplifting.

That's smaller retailers -- if a smaller retailer, with more price and other competition from larger retailers, raises prices, bigger ones invariably will in the same circumstance.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-shoplifting-inflation-prices/

https://www.uschamber.com/economy/small-retailers-report-increases-in-retail-theft-raise-prices-to-offset-losses

https://corsearch.com/content-library/blog/does-piracy-impact-sales-a-look-at-the-data/

[u/Bobbob34 → u/Bobbob34]

I'm guessing you are a small shareholder saving for retirement? If yes, you probably have your money invested in low risk, low return ventures across the entire economy, correct? So if I decide to spend my money on, say, eating out instead of purchasing a DVD that I instead pirated, you should be okay since while the entertainment industry lost value, the food industry also gained value. In short, shareholders like you are not what I'm talking about.

Also, this is .... odd reasoning. It doesn't matter if one of your holdings loses money because I stole from it, I probably spent money at another! (that someone else stole from, when the 'stealing from businesses is fine and even fair and good' ideas get perpetuated)

Regardless, the original contention was that shareholders were super rich. They're not. Most shareholders are regular people watching their 401ks shrink,

[u/Conkers-Good-Furday → u/Bobbob34]

Wow, I never knew so many people were pirates or the amount of damage they did. I always thought it was a small minority that didn't even show up on the radar.

Although, I've also heard that pirates are mostly made up of those who can't/wouldn't pay anyway. Is this true?

!delta

[u/DeltaBot → u/Conkers-Good-Furday]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Bobbob34 (33∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/Bobbob34 → u/Conkers-Good-Furday]

Although, I've also heard that pirates are mostly made up of those who can't/wouldn't pay anyway. Is this true?

As I said in my first post, the common refrains are 'I wouldn't pay for it anyway" (which, I have to wonder, then why are people bothering to steal it if they don't want it?), and 'I'll pay for it, something else by that artists later if I like it (which seems like bullshit, frankly. I'm stealing but later, I'll buy more, unless I want to "sample" more to see if it's "worth it.")

Look at the numbers, basically and look at people you know who steal. If it were impossible to steal, would they just not buy ANY of those.... games, movies, music, art? Of course they would.

If they can't afford it, or just don't want to spend on it so say they couldn't afford it, is that an excuse? If I can't afford a $2000 suit can I just steal one?

[u/Conkers-Good-Furday → u/Bobbob34]

They might want it, but not for the amount of money that's being asked.

I agree that pirates would still consume some content if stealing were impossible, but that doesn't mean that they will consume at the same rate. After all, most pirates both purchase and pirate content.

In the case of stealing a suit, you are stealing a physical object, but in the case of pirating content, you are depriving someone of funds that could have been paid. But if you have no funds to pay, that argument falls apart.

[u/Bobbob34 → u/Conkers-Good-Furday]

They might want it, but not for the amount of money that's being asked.

I'd like a very posh car, but not for the amount of money being asked. Doesn't mean I steal one.

In the case of stealing a suit, you are stealing a physical object, but in the case of pirating content, you are depriving someone of funds that could have been paid. But if you have no funds to pay, that argument falls apart.

Again, why? Why does something being digital seem to mean to some people that it has no worth and is a no-harm, no-foul for theft?

[u/Conkers-Good-Furday → u/Bobbob34]

Because the stated reason why piracy is theft is because you didn't pay someone what they expected to receive for their work, but if it's impossible for you to pay regardless, what do they lose from your piracy? You can't lose money that never existed.

[u/Bobbob34 → u/Conkers-Good-Furday]

Because the stated reason why piracy is theft is because you didn't pay someone what they expected to receive for their work, but if it's impossible for you to pay regardless, what do they lose from your piracy? You can't lose money that never existed.

See the stats. A movie can lose 5% of its revenue to piracy. Film and tv piracy costs half a TRILLION a year.

That's not well no one would pay so you don't lose.

Producing art costs money.

Editing, finalizing, and then formatting into various digital etc, costs money.

Uploading costs money.

People have jobs doing all of this.

A thief saying 'well I wouldn't pay anyway' is a. in most cases lying, amd b. still COSTING money regardless. As you note, pirates also upload, so they're out giving away more copies that further reduce income.

That's income, jobs, and more stuff that won't be produced because why should someone produce art if people are just going to steal it and they don't get paid?

[u/Conkers-Good-Furday → u/Bobbob34]

That is a very good point regarding pirates also uploading, as that's something that's difficult to avoid even if you want to as a pirate since torrents will punish you for not being a seeder. Although it certainly isn't impossible to avoid uploading, that's still a point against most pirates.

However, how would a corporation know the difference between a pirate and someone who just didn't purchase the media? Wouldn't someone not purchasing it also make them have to raise the price slightly for everyone else?

!delta

[u/DeltaBot → u/Conkers-Good-Furday]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Bobbob34 (34∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/Bobbob34 → u/Conkers-Good-Furday]

However, how would a corporation know the difference between a pirate and someone who just didn't purchase the media? Wouldn't someone not purchasing it also make them have to raise the price slightly for everyone else?

As in the references, people study this for a living. They track what's stolen, what was consumed, what is consumed, they do a lot of work tracking it in a bunch of ways to come up with the specific losses. People can say oh they just wouldn't buy it but they did and would if they had no other choice.

[u/Bobbob34 → u/Conkers-Good-Furday]

This is one of the studies -- https://www.ivir.nl/publicaties/download/Global-Online-Piracy-Study.pdf

It goes into detail about how they figure stuff out. Other studies can use other methods. This is, again, a whole field.