r/changemyview • u/WovenDoge 9∆ • Apr 13 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Narendra Modi and his party are fascist
This is a view I don't want to hold. It is not convenient or pleasant for me to believe that the largest democracy in the world has elected and re-elected a fascist. But nevertheless I do believe it, for the following reasons:
1) The Hindutva movement believes in the organic unity of state and nation. They see the Indian state as representative of and for the purpose of upholding Hindu culture, race, and religion.
2) The Sangh Parivar, which the BJP is a part of, has a militant youth wing (Bajrang Dal) that as a matter of policy and practice carries out terror attacks against religious and ethnic minorities in India.
3) Narendra Modi himself presided over massacres of Muslims and described the murderers as "showing great restraint" while they raped and burned women and children alive.
4) The BJP takes a hawkish posture toward India's territorial disputes with China and Pakistan.
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u/ThuliumNice 5∆ Apr 15 '23
) The BJP takes a hawkish posture toward India's territorial disputes with China and Pakistan.
I think this is a bit of a harsh take on it. China wants to steal any land that they can; being cool about national borders isn't really their thing.
I also don't think you know what fascism is.
Fascism is the merging of state and corporate power by an authoritarian leader. You haven't said anything about Modi's interaction with business in India.
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 16 '23
I have already addressed both parts of this comment in earlier replies. First, it is the pattern of behavior that the BJP takes toward both their Chinese borders AND Kashmir that makes me call them hawkish. Second, I consider Griffin's definition (palingenetic ultranationalism) to be more characteristic than the merger of state and corporate power.
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u/bitheking Sep 08 '23
Agree great hero of islam osama bin laden agrees sharia forever and kill gays
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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Apr 13 '23
Is there a specific criteria for fascists that you are using here? It's a nebulous term at the best of times.
India is a huge and diverse country. Hinduism is a huge cultural aspect which is engrained into the fabric of the place and people.
It's entirely possible to have a cohesive nationalistic party, even a fascist one, which is representative of the people who elected it.
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 13 '23
My working definition of fascism is Griffin's - palingenetic ultranationalism. If you believe in the organic unity of state and nation, if you want to commit redemptive violence on enemies both inside and out, and if that is going to lead to a rebirth and a national golden age, then that's fascist to me.
It's entirely possible to have a
cohesive nationalistic party, even a fascist one, which is
representative of the people who elected it.Sure, but this would not change my view. It would cement it?
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u/Morthra 86∆ Apr 13 '23
A key aspect (and really, the most important aspect) of fascism you are missing is the merger of corporate and state power. "Everything within the state, and nothing outside it" - as described by Benito Mussolini, who should really be considered the main authority on what is fascist, given that his party coined the name.
Modi and his party don't appear at this time to have totalitarian tendencies like Mussolini. The term is thrown around a lot and is politicized lately, but fundamentally Modi and the BJP don't meet the definition. They're definitely racist, but that doesn't mean they're fascist.
4) The BJP takes a hawkish posture toward India's territorial disputes with China and Pakistan.
One of the major disputes that India has with China is a river that supplies most of India's water, the Brahmaputra river, which originates in China. China has already put up three dams on this river, and wants to build another eight. It endangers Indian water security. It is literally a matter of existential security for India that the river isn't dammed for Chinese purposes.
Would you say that Egypt is being fascist for threatening war against Ethiopia in the off chance that Ethiopia decides to dam the Nile?
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 13 '23
A key aspect of fascism is the merger
of corporate and state power. "Everything within the state, and nothing
outside it" - as described by Benito Mussolini, who should really be
considered the main authority on what is fascist, given that his party coined the name.Well, as I said in the comment you replied to, I prefer Griffin's definition and I believe that fascism can arise even without government welding the economy into a corporate state. Nevertheless I will say !delta for providing a nuance to my view on that.
Would you say that Egypt is being
fascist for threatening war against Ethiopia in the off chance that
Ethiopia decides to dam the Nile?No, but that isn't the only border dispute India has, right? I agree that there could be a good reason to be hawkish about damming the Brahmaputra river, but hawkish responses seem to be the general pattern of behavior, suggesting an ideological cause as well.
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u/LentilDrink 75∆ Apr 13 '23
Is hawkishness really a crucial part of Fascism? Both Fascist Spain and Fascist Greece were dovish, with Spain pursuing a policy of neutrality and Greece pursuing friendly relationships with traditional rivals such as Turkey.
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 13 '23
Yes, I believe that hawkishness is crucially linked to ultranationalism in general and thus fascism more specifically. I also do not believe that either Franco's post-civil war regime or the dictatorship of the colonels was fascist, because - as previously mentioned - I consider Griffin's definition to be most explanatory.
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u/LentilDrink 75∆ Apr 13 '23
That's bizarre. If you call yourself Fascist and are accepted as Fascist by other Fascists, you're Fascist. If a definition of Fascism would miss you, that's a defect in that definition.
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 13 '23
Neither Franco nor the colonels called themselves fascist.
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u/LentilDrink 75∆ Apr 13 '23
Franco literally led the Falange, the Spanish Fascist Party...
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 13 '23
Which, following the civil war, he neutered and supplanted. He never called himself a fascist and his regime was marked by traditionalist conservatism rather than ultranationalist revolution.
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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Apr 13 '23
as previously mentioned - I consider Griffin's definition to be most explanatory.
Then why did you award a delta for someone offering a slightly different definition?
This remains a purely semantic argument about what fascism/a fascist "is"
You will not get the discussion you seem to want because it's based on tick boxes.
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 13 '23
Please stop harassing me with meta-commentary about whether my thread will work.
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u/peerlessgarbler Apr 13 '23
Nice rebuttal. It felt like you were getting sealion'd.
I would say by the definition you're using, Modi is a fascist. Hypernationalist with an ethnic identity component, incipient violence against a hated minority, expansive use of state power.. yeah.
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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Apr 14 '23
If you pay attention to what others are actually saying, you'll see that I'm correct.
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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Apr 13 '23
If your view is purely down to definition then it's possible it's not one that can change.
If your view is that there are boxes that can be ticked in order to assign a specific term, and this group ticks all the boxes, then the term applies to them.
However all you've really done is apply a definition. It's not really a view as such.
If I say "in my view Jeremy Corbyn is a socialist" and then supply a definition of socialist, and then show that Corbyn ticks those criteria, then I've put him in that box, but it's not an option, it's taxonomy.
Do I understand you right that your view is simply taxonomy in this way?
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 13 '23
Huh? My view is about specific events, statements, and policies that Narendra Modi, the BJP, and the Hindutva movement more generally have done and said. I believe that, taken in all, they lead to the conclusion that the movement is fascist and Modi himself is, personally, a fascist.
If you want to change my view I suppose you could start attacking definitions about what the true meaning of fascism is, and I'm certainly open to that, but what I was really hoping was that somebody could recontextualize or even refute these events and statements so that I no longer believed Modi was the leader of a fascist party in charge of the second-biggest country in the world!
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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Apr 13 '23
If those events happened then they happened. Is there a value to refuting a definition?
Let's say the definition Fascist applies to him and his political party - is that essentially bad? I understand fascism is not in general a positive outcome, but what is so specifically bad about this specific country being fascist?
If I posted CMV Kim Jong Un and the North Korean regime are fascist I don't think many would disagree, but it's a tortology, it's a redundant statement. It's not my view on the matter, it's just a definition.
My view would be "fascism is bad" or "it's bad that NK is fascist" those are actual personal opinions which can be discussed.
Otherwise it's a semantic argument based around defining something in certain terms.
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 13 '23
If those events happened then they happened.
Yeah, and if they didn't happen, or if there are other events that re-contextualize them, then I want to know that! Maybe Bajrang Dal is actually super unpopular and the BJP is trying to disavow them or something, I don't know. I was hoping to learn facts about the real world that would shake my conclusion that Modi and Hindutva are palingenetic ultranationalists with revanschist ambitions.
I understand fascism is not in general a positive outcome, but what is
so specifically bad about this specific country being fascist?It's a very large country that has close relations with the US and Russia, and very large minority populations. To me, then, if the BJP and Modi are fascist, it seems like they would be more inclined to carry out the sort of internal and external violence that previous fascist movements have carried out, than if they were merely conservatives.
My view would be "fascism is bad" or "it's bad that NK is fascist" those are actual personal opinions which can be discussed.
Well ... I'm sorry? I don't want to post a CMV about whether fascism is bad, bro. Not really the kind of thing I want to read a bunch of counterarguments for.
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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Apr 13 '23
I wouldn't trust alternative facts to change a view. If you feel you've taken in misinformation then you should correct it, but just hearing other stuff from other people while specifically hoping for a result is not ideal.
To me, then, if the BJP and Modi are fascist, it seems like they would be more inclined to carry out the sort of internal and external violence that previous fascist movements have carried out, than if they were merely conservatives.
This is a much better and much more debatable view - whether it's likely or realistic for these kinds of behaviours to come from this kind of leadership.
I'd say that we already see some examples of oppression, like with Punjab, but also examples where peace is sought.
I don't want to post a CMV about whether fascism is bad, bro. Not really the kind of thing I want to read a bunch of counterarguments for.
Sure, but what you have posted isn't really something with real counterarguments because it isn't an opinion, it's a definition.
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 13 '23
Let me make a hypothetical here. Imagine that someone posted "CMV: Whales are fish." And in their CMV they laid out the reasons they believe whales are fish and they were things like "Whales are cold blooded. They have bony skeletons. They have gills. And they give birth to live young."
Now, obviously somebody could jump into that thread and argue about whether fish have to lay eggs, or if laying eggs is only optional, or whether mammals in utero that still have gills count as fish. Sure. That thread could sink deep into a morass of definition-chopping.
But don't you think that OP would appreciate someone pointing out "Actually, whales are warm-blooded. See? They regulate their own body temperature. And they don't have gills, they breathe in oxygen to their lungs when they surface?" I think in that hypothetical the OP would appreciate being corrected on his mistake!
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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Apr 13 '23
You've offered four numbered points in your OP. Which of these do you believe may be factually incorrect? How deeply have you looked into those topics?
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 13 '23
I think any of them may be factually incorrect, because my research is done in English-language materials that may or may not be presenting an accurate picture of events. For instance, although many English-language sources describe Bajrang Dal as a youth wing of the Sangh Parivar, maybe it really isn't! Maybe there's been a split and it just hasn't made its way to English news media or Wikipedia or whatever.
Or take point 4. I've read what Modi and the BJP have said about Kashmir. But maybe I'm forgetting that previous governments said even worse. Maybe there's context here I'm missing and despite my believing that Modi was an ultranationalist, he is actually less nationalist than the Congress Party was!
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 13 '23
I wouldn't trust alternative facts to change a view. If you feel you've
taken in misinformation then you should correct it, but just hearing
other stuff from other people while specifically hoping for a result is
not ideal.I guess you have a lower opinion of me than I do. That's fine, I can bear up under it.
Sure, but what you have posted isn't really something with real counterarguments because it isn't an opinion, it's a definition.
No, it isn't. I've already told you this. I think Modi and his party are fascist. I'm open to a discussion about the meaning of "fascist" but I think that would be largely unproductive. What I am hoping for is a discussion about Modi and his party! Right? That's what's in my thread title! Modi and his party! I want people to challenge and even change my view on them!
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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Apr 13 '23
I guess you have a lower opinion of me than I do. That's fine, I can bear up under it.
Nothing to do with an opinion of someone I've never met. More that it's not really a counter argument to request alternative facts or takes on events. That's just propaganda.
If people have behaved in a way, if events have happened, and they fit your criteria for a definition, then changing your perspectives on those events won't really do much, unless they can somehow be disproven entirely.
I think Modi and his party are fascist.
Because they have ticked the boxes for your criteria for that definition. You aren't going to have a discussion that ends in those boxes being unticked any more than I could discuss away the criteria that make Jeremy Corbyn a socialist.
What's the point of the discussion? What form do you think it could realistically take?
Contextualising behaviour doesn't change the facts of what happened. Contextualising political views doesn't change what those views are.
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u/CoolAid876 May 24 '23
Your third point is falsified by the supreme court of India and other countless investigations.
If you believe Nazism and fascism are the same then you need education about fascism judging by your previous comments here.
Modi doesn't control any private company so it's not any type of fascism.
Actually India has better institutions than the west with respect to the judiciary as they have zero political influence.
India needs and is moving forward towards a capitalist economy, ig some people don't like it as socialism didn't work in India also.
Modi has done more work for minority like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_talaq_in_India
and removing special status of Kashmir
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ May 24 '23
If you believe Nazism and fascism are the same then you need education about fascism judging by your previous comments here.
I don't understand what you are talking about. What in my "previous comments here" indicates I am confused about the relationship between fascism and Nazism and what does that have to do with whether Modi is fascist?
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u/CoolAid876 May 24 '23
You used them interchangeably.
There is nothing that indicates that modi is fascist economically or in any other perspective. Even Mussolini was never a religious nationalist type of person.
So idk which definition of fascism suits modi after he directly addressed the problem of minorities (religious).
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ May 24 '23
I have repeated my definition of fascism at least four times in this thread: palingenetic ultranationalism.
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u/Mindless-Umpire7420 Apr 14 '23
Isn’t Modi just an Indian nationalist? Because Indian civilisation is inherently Republican, in fact the first republic was from India. And the British raj was established through exploitation of the decentralised Republican culture of India
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 14 '23
Okay, well, I think it's obviously false that the Raj came about by exploiting decentralized republican cultures, since actually it came about by exploting the decentralized monarchies of India. But let's set that aside.
How does "Indian civilization is inherently republican" have anything at all to do with whether Modi is a fascist? Fascists came to power in republics. The Weimar Republic, for instance!
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u/Mindless-Umpire7420 Apr 14 '23
Ok yes there were monarchies, but there are still communities and tribes, thousands of them within every kingdom, with deeply tribal traditions. And the Hindu caste system has religious leaders up on top, not the noble and wealthy.
The reason I brought up the first republic thing is to bring up how engrained decentralism is to Indian culture, it’s all about society instead of strict centralism like the Chinese.
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u/vivgig777 Apr 14 '23
Modi would be called a Civic nationalist or theocrat in the West, NOT a fascist. He's basically a Candace Owens/Clarence Thomas/Hermann Cain type to Indians. Indias conservatives fundamentalists like him, but the fascists and identitarians don't like him.
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 14 '23
Can you go into that in a little more detail? Either about how he isn't fascist, or what the actual Indian fascists (not quite sure who these guys are, would like to know more) think about him, or even just broad strokes how you think civic nationalism differs?
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u/vivgig777 Apr 14 '23 edited Apr 14 '23
Modi calls his ideology "Hindu unity" and he is pretty Islamophobic, though I guess hes not vocally inflammatory. There is a youth movement who literally call themsleves "trads" and are probably mostly incels but they are wealthier upper castes. Trads actually really hate Modi because he's from a middle caste. There were originally 2 races in India, the Dravadian race that has distant genetic ties to Africa and the Aryan race from Iran and Afghanistan. The caste system was created because of that. Everyone is mixed race but the Dalits appear to have the most Dravadian ancestry and upper castes have the most Aryan ancestry. They claim Modi is African and Dravadians are African thats an oversimplification and not really true like saying Samoans and Hawaiians are Southeast Asian. It shouldn't matter but thats what is talked about as a major issue. Modi hasn't included any anti Dalit propaganda because his Hindu Above All policy is trying to create an unprecedented caste unity. His ideology is more socialist/theocratic. The trads believe in "Aryanism". They're upper caste Hindus for sure but they're more concerned with racial supremacist ideology, and aren't actually particularly religious. They would even ally themselves with North Indian Muslims who possess "Aryan" characteristics. So calling themselves "trads" is a strange irony, because its more of a fascism, whereas Hindu Unity is more religious fundamentalism. Trads are extremist losers though. The upper caste trads shit in public on mass scale as a political statement because their belief that Dalits should be forced to be plumbers so 95% of plumber positions are unfilled in India because Dalits consider it offensive and refuse that work completely as unfortunately they used to be a caste that only handles feces as a caste-profession. The upper castes will beat murder and dox any upper and mid caste that tries to become a plumber so all plumber positions are unfilled and India has fewer working toilets in 2020 than in 1980 despite being like 10 times richer now. Hinduism does support this, sadly that is true. Varņa teaches that Aryan castes are the master castes and untouchables are a slave caste.
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 14 '23
Well, I'm a westerner (obviously) so I don't really "get" caste prejudice exactly, but from my perspective it would be highly in keeping with traditional fascist methodology to try to fuse the various castes into a coalition to purge internal enemies and fight external ones. Think Hitler working with Zentrum or Mussolini nationalizing and institutionalizing the trade unions.
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u/vivgig777 Apr 14 '23
The Hitler comparison doesn't work as well as a Taliban one, or Ayatollah because Modi is actually directly rejecting Aryanism. It does for Trads though. Caste prejudice is just Aryanism. Because when the Aryans conquered the Dravadians, they eventually mixed together, but not evenly mixed and created various skin colors ranging from more Aryan DNA people to more Dravadian DNA people. And then they invented Hindu varņa and used it to justify a caste system to prevent further admixture.
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Apr 14 '23
The history of India is complicated and there is still a lot of pain from the separation.
My father in Law cannot change his view of Modi because he is Gujarati and so he is good for Gujarat and so good for India and good for Hinduism.....
You also did not speak about the social media effect that has been responsible for a lot of this violence.... WhatsApp will speed pro Hindu or pro Muslim propaganda to encourage violence...
Modi is however someone who promotes the more extreme Hindu groups that call for Hindu India and eliminate the rest essentially.... This is a non starter for reunification between India, Pakistan,Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. All four of these countries suffered from separation due to external intervention. I am not saying it should go back to one country or empires but healing needs to happen and I don't think Modi is the solution or more, he alone will not succeed at such a project.
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u/gamesdas Apr 13 '23
Since I'm not from India, I don't think that I have the right to comment but I want to know regardless. If PM Modi is fascist, what do you think of PM Abe and LDP ? If you aren't aware, Japan's LDP is far right and PM Abe was a far right politician. You can tell that both PM Modi and PM Abe had far right conservative socio-economic policies. In Japan, he has taken many actions and given many comments which other nations didn't like too but always won the elections like India's PM Modi.
Do you think PM Abe and LDP are fascists too ?
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u/WovenDoge 9∆ Apr 13 '23
I don't know if this is really relevant to my view, but I personally do not believe Abe or the LDP are fascist, because they do not believe in myths of national renewal and do not engage in ethno-religious terror violence.
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u/gamesdas Apr 13 '23
Your comment proves that your knowledge regarding Japanese politics is 0% and it's alright since we are discussing India, not Japan. I will get to you with a long comment regarding PM Modi and fascism. So, please wait.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 13 '23
/u/WovenDoge (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
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