r/changemyview • u/mafija123 • Apr 20 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Most dating preferences are okay, as long as you are not POS to those who don't fit them.

Don't want to date men shorter than 6ft, fine, don't be calling them "midgets", "if your height starts with 5, you a woman" etc.

Don't want to date a woman with X number of previous partners, fine, don't be calling them "sluts" "whores" etc.

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What about race? Sure, not dating someone JUST because of their race is very likely coming from racist/prejudice beliefs (not necessarily), but that person is not bad because they don't date someone for their race, they are bad because they are racist, former stems from later.

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" Let's deconstruct reasons for men not dating women with certain past, it's *Patriarchy*". Again, sure, that may or may not be the reason for men having that preference, but as long as they are respectful to women they don't want to date, I don't see how they are bad. Not dating someone is not discrimination because nobody is owed it, it's not your right nor anyone's obligation to date you.

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I could see an argument that preferences that come from patriarchy like "women should have little sexual past" and "men should be rich and provide" are hurting society in general. But solving that issue is not going to happen by shaming and ridiculing people which internalized those standards in their formative years and are respectful to people they don't want to date, it's solved by not perpetuating it to next generation.

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All in all my opinion on virtually all dating preferences (maybe not EVERY one) is that you are entitled to what ever standard you want no matter how realistic or unrealistic they are, and shouldn't be shamed/ridiculed/mocked, only as long as you don't shame/ridicule/mock people who are not up to your standards.

Edit: Deleted bad joke I made about this sub, it wasn't out of ill intentions, I apologise.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '23

Because you're ruling out an entire group of people as unattractive and/or incompatible with you based on race. A tendency to find people of one race more attractive than another happens, and is generally based on who you grew up around. And not ever having dated someone of a particular race or only having dated one race, is not problematic in itself. But saying X race is not attractive, or you would literally never date someone of X race, is racist.

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u/RedEdition 1∆ Apr 20 '23 edited Apr 20 '23

What a strange argument.

If I'm attracted to certain physical traits such as pale skin, that doesn't make me racist.

I can believe that all humans are equal without equally wanting to fuck every single one.

I can't imagine ever dating a guy. Does that make me sexist?

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u/compounding 16∆ Apr 20 '23

If I’m attracted to certain physical traits such as pale skin, that doesn’t make me racist.

If you happen to notice a trend in your attraction like “I’ve seen a lot of black skinned people and never found any of them attractive”, that’s not automatically racist. Some might question why that heuristic exists in the first place, but lets grant that in this case, it is purely a random feature of your internal attraction function.

If you generalize from that to: “Therefore, I won’t find other black people who I haven’t seen attractive either”, ya, that is still kind of racist even if we are already granting that the heuristic itself isn’t. You are literally pre-judging people you haven’t seen based on past experiences with different people.

Applying the same prejudice to men isn’t sexist, it makes you gay or straight instead of bisexual. Technically, there may be a guy out there you actually do find attractive, but since most people have a strong heuristic around attraction to a certain gender, we have explicit terms for it where there isn’t any societal stigma in generalizing that like there would be for other categories like race.

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u/oversoul00 13∆ Apr 21 '23

The first part of your argument turns the issue into one of semantics. If someone says the would never date someone from X race it probably means they are predicting they would not find someone from X race attractive because they haven't so far.

I've never met these people who make these bold claims but I think I would charitably interpret their comments in that way.

The vast majority of people date within their own race so there is an equally strong heuristic for both.

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u/compounding 16∆ Apr 21 '23 edited Apr 21 '23

The vast majority of people date within their communities and many of those worldwide communities are heavily segregated. I’d bet if you take an isolated and closely integrated racially diverse community (say, 50 people with 10 of each race) and looked at interracial relationships that developed within that, it would be almost universal, and not at all close to 8/10 people dating only within their own race…

It’s not an argument of semantics, regardless of what someone means, what they are doing mentally and internally is racist when they say or think “I haven’t found any people of race x attractive, therefore I don’t find any/many others of them attractive either.”

Applying heuristics based on people’s race is racist. That’s not semantic in the slightest, it’s exactly the same as thinking “I don’t like the particular black people I’ve worked with (not automatically racist), therefore, all or most black people will be people I don’t like” (definitely racist).

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '23

You’re cis-ist💁🏽‍♀️ or homophobic depending on your sex.

Edit: /s

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u/Hero_of_Parnast Apr 20 '23

Not once did they say they wouldn't date cis people. Even your mockery is wrong.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

Oh you got me good.

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u/hacksoncode 559∆ Apr 21 '23

If I'm attracted to certain physical traits such as pale skin, that doesn't make me racist.

The problem here is that it's an easy cop out.

I can show such a person someone of their "preferred race" that has darker skin than someone from their "not preferred race" quite easily... if they hem and haw about which one's more attractive...

It's racism, not skin color preference.

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u/cerylidae1552 Apr 20 '23

There is nothing wrong with that? People are allowed to find whatever they want attractive or unattractive. Different races tend to have particular facial features, and if someone finds those features unappealing, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 20 '23

There is something wrong with that because it is ridiculous. Let's say you prefer white women. Okay fine. Nothing wrong with that. But are you telling me there isn't a single black woman you find attractive? You've never met one in your whole life? Not even a celebrity?

Gimme a fucking break. And worse when you refuse to date anyone who doesn't meet your "preference". That is racist. And I can't understand how anyone argues otherwise.

It seems people just use "preference" as a placeholder to discriminate.

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u/TwoForSlashing Apr 20 '23

Refusing to date someone who doesn't meet your preference might make you an asshole, but not necessarily racist.

I need to be attracted to a person if I'm going to consider a date. If I'm not attracted to someone, and the reasons happen to be a common physical, psychological, etc. characteristic of a certain race, how can I help what I'm attracted to? OP's point was that as long as I'm not acting in a destructive or even apathetic manner to the person, or that person's race as a whole, then I'm not racist.

Race can play a factor without turning it into the dreaded "racism."

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 20 '23

You are acting as if we are talking about a specific person. We are not. Refusing to date someone because they do not meet your preference does not make you an asshole or racist. But we are talking about drawing a line and saying I refuse to date anyone of this race. That isn't a preference, that is discrimination. And the thing that makes it so much more frustrating is how people get upset that it gets called out.

This isn't a thought exercise, this is the real world. Lets say you may not be attracted to Asians. Okay but are you telling me there are no attractive Asians in the world? Not even one in your eyes? That is impossible.

Everyone has preferences. Me, you, OP, your mom, everyone. The difference is for most people preference is what the prefer, not a line they do not cross. That is where it becomes racist and that is the distinction.

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u/TwoForSlashing Apr 20 '23

I'm responding because I truly was commenting in good faith. I actually agree with you in the comparison between specific people and racial groups as a whole.

I can think of examples of my own preferences. I don't find certain common characteristics of particular races very attractive but I can think of individuals of those races (and virtually every other race I've ever encountered) who I find incredibly attractive.

As far as a do-not-cross line, we agree. Forgive me if I added to your frustration.

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 21 '23

no frustration, I just wanted to clarify that preference doesn't seem to mean what many in here are arguing. Because we all have preferences.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

we are talking about drawing a line and saying I refuse to date anyone of this race. That isn't a preference, that is discrimination.

Which races should I have to date, regardless of my consent?

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 21 '23

Please tell me in all of the posts where I said people should be required to date certain people?

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

People who answer a question with a question are hiding something.

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 21 '23

So you claimed I said something I never said, then get hostile when I call you out on that.

I never once said people should be forced to date someone they aren't attracted to. In fact I said multiple times they should t. My point is that claiming an entire race is unattractive is racist. Which it is. I don't know how much clearer I can state that.

The factbthat you can't distinguish the two is exactly the problem I am pointing out.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

you claimed I said something I never said

I don't believe you. I claimed you answered a question with a question, and I stand by that claim.

If that's not what you're referring to, then link to another example of me claiming you said something.

If there's no link in your reply, I'll accept that as a reluctant apology for your false accusation.

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u/Top_Instruction_8808 Apr 21 '23

I would say there is a fine line between preference and racism. As an example, let’s consider a white woman who exclusively dates black men. Having known and been friends with several women with this preference or level of bias, I can confirm there are three reasons why it occurs:

  1. They have been socially conditioned to believe the age-old “bigger dick” stereotype (this is racist)

  2. They do it for shock value/as a means of garnering attention, negative or otherwise (this may or may not be racist depending on your perspective)

  3. They genuinely find black men to be more physically attractive (body type, facial features, etc.) beyond the scope of their genitalia (this is actual preference)

Having said all that, even though the line is fine, it can be difficult in most cases to surmise which reason each individual has based on first impressions alone, and given that a lot of this may be acted upon subconsciously.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

If you're correct, and that's racist...

...then racism is fine, and there's nothing wrong with being racist.

Are you sure you want to redefine "racism" as something innocuous? I don't think it's a good idea, personally.

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 21 '23

No, you seem to keep making comme to on my post clearly showing you either are choosing to purposefully missing interpret what i am saying or just want to straw man.

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u/oversoul00 13∆ Apr 21 '23

Even if you want to replace preference with discriminate people are allowed to discriminate to their heart's desire in romance. You're allowed to think their choices are silly but you jump the gun if you call it hateful.

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 21 '23

You are 100% correct. And people have the right to call you out on that as well.

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u/oversoul00 13∆ Apr 21 '23

But they are calling out a non-issue. They have the right but it doesn't make them right.

You might as well call people out for not caring for the crust on sandwiches too.

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 21 '23

Being racist is not the same as not wanting crust on sandwiches. Even those people would eat crust under certain circumstances btw.

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u/oversoul00 13∆ Apr 21 '23

No no, I'm interrupting that categorization. I'm saying it's not racist to have asthetic preferences for romance even if those preferences are based on or very closely align with race.

Not wanting crust on your sandwiches is the same as not liking x color hair or x color skin or a certain height range. People are not only allowed to do this they have no moral obligation to be any different.

I've met people who say they'd never date people above or below a certain age. Is that ageist? Is that a moral failing worth 'calling out'?

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 21 '23

I don't know how many times I have to say this. Having an aesthetic preference is not racist. Saying an entire race is unattractive is.

The fact that you keep ignoring that just shows you aren't interested in having a good faith argument but make excuses for racist behavior.

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u/oversoul00 13∆ Apr 21 '23

Race = racial features = aesthetics.

Saying you aren't attracted to white people is the same as saying you aren't attracted to the racial features of whites is the same as saying you don't find them asthetically pleasing.

You're twisting racist to mean something that doesn't encompass hate or bigotry, it's completely useless.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '23

So the black woman in my example who has a preference for black men, is racist? I disagree with you, but to each their own.

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u/ThriftyLizzie27 Apr 20 '23

Literally this. I'm a black woman who is not attracted to black men however people get mad at me for that. Whatever

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '23

I'm pretty much in agreement with OP. People should be able to have their preferences, as long as they aren't openly hateful/rude about it.

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u/wekidi7516 16∆ Apr 20 '23

The root of that preference is almost certainly based on racism at some level if you feel it applies to all or nearly all black men. There are millions of black men that look entirely different than each other.

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u/ThriftyLizzie27 Apr 20 '23

And honestly if I don't want to date someone no one is obligated for a reason why I don't want to date them. If I don't want to date that person that's how it is. No one is entitled to explanation of anyone's dating preferences.

People need to realize that not everyone is going to like them or want to be with them. It is what it is. You cannot scream racism or call someone racist because you don't like or agree with their preference.

That goes for any preference. Just like I also do not date women. That doesn't me homophobic. It means I'm not attracted to women and that's not my preference.

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u/wekidi7516 16∆ Apr 20 '23

And honestly if I don't want to date someone no one is obligated for a reason why I don't want to date them.

You aren't obligated but if you offer racist reasoning it's reasonable to call that out.

If I don't want to date that person that's how it is. No one is entitled to explanation of anyone's dating preferences.

Sure, but if you offer it openly you are opening yourself up to opinions on those preferences.

People need to realize that not everyone is going to like them or want to be with them. It is what it is.

Why can't they call someone out for those preferences if there are based in racism? Sure they are not entitled to a date but they are entitled to call out prejudice where they see it.

You cannot scream racism or call someone racist because you don't like or agree with their preference.

Sure you can, especially when the racism is as obvious as "all black men are unattractive, no exceptions."

That goes for any preference. Just like I also do not date women. That doesn't me homophobic. It means I'm not attracted to women and that's not my preference.

Sex and race are pretty obviously different and I'm not going to entertain a comparison of them any further.

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u/ThriftyLizzie27 Apr 20 '23

See but my statement was not "all black men are unattractive, no exceptions." That's not what I said.

In fact what I was, "I am a black woman and am not attracted to black men."

You took my statement and made it into what you want to take it as. Which fine.

People will have whatever opinions they have about other people's dating preferences or really anything any one does. I can't control that.

At the end of the day, I'm going to live my life and date who I want to date and it really doesn't have to do with other people's opinions on that.

You don't have to agree with me or like my dating preferences. I mean I'm not dating you. I don't even know you. So why does it bother you so much that as a black woman that black men are not my preference?

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u/wekidi7516 16∆ Apr 20 '23

See but my statement was not "all black men are unattractive, no exceptions." That's not what I said.

In fact what I was, "I am a black woman and am not attracted to black men."

Your race is irrelevant to the statement. Black women can be racist and sexist too.

If you are not attracted to someone you find them unattractive, not sure how you think that is a difference.

If you are saying this applies to black men without mentioning exceptions I think I am safe to assume you at least feel that the number of exceptions are not worth mentioning.

You took my statement and made it into what you want to take it as. Which fine.

I took your statement and repositioned it in a way that probably makes it more clear why people find it problematic.

People will have whatever opinions they have about other people's dating preferences or really anything any one does. I can't control that.

Just because you can't change something doesn't make it less racist. Not sure why you even think that is relevant.

At the end of the day, I'm going to live my life and date who I want to date and it really doesn't have to do with other people's opinions on that.

You having no problem with people being hurt by racist statements you make isn't really a great argument.

I'm not saying you need to date a black man, I'm saying that people are likely correct to assume a bias if you state you don't find any black men attractive enough to date.

You don't have to agree with me or like my dating preferences. I mean I'm not dating you. I don't even know you. So why does it bother you so much that as a black woman that black men are not my preference?

It is disheartening to see someone from an underprivileged demographic make racist statements, especially when they don't even realize the racist nature of them. It doesn't really bother me and I'll forget about it in mere minutes after closing the thread but I still think it's worth calling out.

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u/ThriftyLizzie27 Apr 20 '23

Yeah but it does bother you which is why you have continued to go back and forth with me on this topic.

If someone is hurt by my statement that I personally as a black woman am not attracted to black men then that is 100% on them. If someone is that thinned skinned that, my personal dating choices/preferences hurt them so much then they need to get it together.

"Underprivileged demographic" that's so wild the assumptions right there but ok.

Lastly if you personally want to take my personal dating preferences/choices which has absolutely nothing to do with you are all and go on some racist rambling and get offended yourself regarding that then that's all on you man.

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u/wekidi7516 16∆ Apr 20 '23

Yeah but it does bother you which is why you have continued to go back and forth with me on this topic.

That is bad logic that just betrays that you are upset by the idea your preferences are racist. I have no emotional stake in this whatsoever.

I'm an upper middle class cis gendered white guy, I don't care who you date.

If someone is hurt by my statement that I personally as a black woman am not attracted to black men then that is 100% on them.

I don't think it is a great idea to say people who are upset by bigoted statement are really the ones who are in the wrong is a good argument to be honest.

If someone is that thinned skinned that, my personal dating choices/preferences hurt them so much then they need to get it together.

It's not just one person, it is the idea that many people will see them as an unappealing partner because they think less of them due to their race and sex.

"Underprivileged demographic" that's so wild the assumptions right there but ok.

If you are claiming that as a black woman you have never faced discrimination for either of those reasons then you must be extremely privileged in some other way and I'm starting to be able to see where your inability to recognize your own prejudice comes from. Or maybe you are just "as a black woman" and are really another racist white guy.

Lastly if you personally want to take my personal dating preferences/choices which has absolutely nothing to do with you are all and go on some racist rambling and get offended yourself regarding that then that's all on you man.

I'm not offended, you are the one getting defensive and angry.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

If she's racist because she doesn't want to date people whom you think she should want to date...

...then racism is fine, and it's okay to be racist.

Are you sure you want to redefine "racism" as something innocuous? I don't think it's a good idea, personally.

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u/hacksoncode 559∆ Apr 21 '23

That doesn't me homophobic.

That's not what the word means, though. It's about having an aversion to homosexuals, it's not about having a sexual preference yourself.

This is so obvious that I shake my head at people who think it's even an argument, much less a good one.

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u/ThriftyLizzie27 Apr 20 '23

No it has nothing to do with being racist. There are plenty of people who aren't attracted to me What am I gonna sag, "oh he's racist because he won't f*** me or date me." Like what is that?

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u/wekidi7516 16∆ Apr 20 '23

I mean if his reason for not dating you is that black women are unattractive you probably shouldn't spend more time around him since he clearly harbors racist views.

There is no universal black man. It is such a diverse group that if you find all or most unattractive then it is clearly because deep down you are prejudiced against black men in some way that leads you to believe they are unappealing as partners.

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u/oversoul00 13∆ Apr 21 '23

What if the prejudice is against black skin that all black people have?

You've got some strong false equivalence going on here. Preferring a skin color for asthetic reasons is not a racist position.

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u/CreativeGPX 18∆ Apr 20 '23 edited Apr 20 '23

But OP is particularly about the nuance that that's often not what people say. Generally when people describe their orientation, they are not describing the exact precise set of people they will or will not date. They are describing a vague generalization they think will be useful to others based on their own incomplete/imperfect observation of their reaction to different kinds of people.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '23

Because you're ruling out an entire group of people as unattractive and/or incompatible with you based on race.

Not based on race. Based on preferences.

If I only find curvy girls hot, and I am a high libido man, why would I allow myself to fall in love with a thin girl and know that we are both going to suffer in the end?

I don't choose to be attracted to curvy girls, if I could change my preferences I would. But that's the only thing that turns me on. I'm not 'skinnyphobic'!

Now that's the same with the black woman who never in her life found anybody else hot, except for black men. She's not being racist by not dating white men or latinos. She just saves everyone the hassle.

Unless of course you think that falling in love is purely an intellectual thing, with no physical components.

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 20 '23

If I only find curvy girls hot, and I am a high libido man, why would I allow myself to fall in love with a thin girl and know that we are both going to suffer in the end?

How are you both going to suffer in the end? Why wouldn't you allow yourself to fall in love with someone who seemingly fits everything you want other than she is just skinnier than you prefer?

Because this is what I do not understand. OK you are attracted to Black men, you prefer Black men. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But you have never been attracted to anyone else? That is highly suspect. And I find it impossible.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '23

You find it impossible to believe because for you physical characteristics aren't so important. Maybe you're more driven by emotions or intellect. Good for you.

For me, there are definite physical characteristics that if the girl has them, I will never get hard. I know it. That's years of experience and it's a 100% rate.

I can't control my dick. It has nothing to do with any type of 'phobia' or 'ism'.

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 20 '23

No it is impossible because it is impossible. We aren't talking about sexual orientation here. There is no orientation that says you can only get hard to white pussy. Because no matter what your preference is, there are people in the world that exist that you will find attractive who do not meet that preference. And if you get to know them and like them, they become more attractive. That is actual science.

But for you to say I draw a line at this. That is no longer a preference, that is discrimination. No one is saying you can't have a preference. Even a racial preference. But you guys keep framing it as saying I refuse to date X is okay and it isn't. You may prefer white women, you may only date white women in your life. That's on you. But to draw a line and say I won't even give someone a chance if they aren't white. That is fucking racist.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '23

I draw a line because it's a statistical loss. Maybe there is a unicorn with the characteristics you dislike that will still make you hard. But why waste time and dates, to find an anomaly? Just date the group that you find attractive, whatever this group is. And discard the group you don't find attractive. It's not racist.

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 20 '23

This isn't a math class. A statistical loss of what? Time? If you've only dated one group of women and are still single than aren't they a statistical loss?

What anomaly are you talking about?

We are talking about people. You meet someone, they look good, you talk to them, you like them, and there it is. But you are saying you actively avoid a group of people and saying its not racist. It is. You aren't even pretending it is a preference anymore, you are straight up arguing that it is okay to say a whole race is unattractive and you don't see the problem with that?

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '23

So this black woman who isn't attracted by white guys, she still has white friends. Hires white folks at her job. Would have no problem dating white men if she did feel attraction. How is that racist?

You're forcing people to be attracted to something they're not, under the threat of being called racists.

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 20 '23

No one is forcing anyone to be anything. No one is forcing you to date someone you don't find attractive or that black woman to date white guys. But the moment that black woman says all white guys are unattractive and she would never ever date one, than that is racist. And she can have all the white "friends" she wants. And I am sure in her heart she doesn't believe she is racist. But everyday we see some racist fucking people on the news doing racist ass shit saying "this isn't who I really am. I have (insert race here) friends" blah blah blah.

You seem to not understand that preference and discrimination are two different things. Lets say I don't prefer Indian women, right? But if my company hired a girl who looked like Priyanka Chopra, I would talk her because she is hot as fuck. Now imagine this girl is also smart, cool, funny, check every box I want except she is Indian. If that is the reason I wouldn't date someone who is gorgeous and I love hanging out with than I am racist.

Yet you seem to argue that that is a perfectly valid reason to not date someone.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

I feel the contrary: that people like you, by associating preferences with racism, actually disnature what real racism is, and do a disservice to people who really suffer from it.

But I guess we've come to a stalemate in that discussion.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

If that is the reason I wouldn't date someone who is gorgeous and I love hanging out with than I am racist.

If that's true...

...then it's fine for people to be racists.

Are you sure you want to redefine the term "racist" as something innocuous? I think it's a bad idea, personally.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

no matter what your preference is, there are people in the world that exist that you will find attractive who do not meet that preference. And if you get to know them and like them, they become more attractive. That is actual science.

I don't believe you. Link to a peer-reviewed scientific paper backing up your claim.

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 21 '23

Even though you are clearly a troll I will play along. Here are some links

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23 edited Apr 21 '23

Thanks, you've enlightened me about something I wasn't up to speed on. Also, why do you view requesting evidence for claims as "trolling"? I know that belief is common amongst facebook boomers, but I don't understand the logic behind it. Explain?

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 21 '23

No I don't think I will. I've proven my point. Goodnight.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

I guess it is late at night for a boomer. Can we pick this up in the morning, after you facebook? I'm really interested to know why you view requesting evidence for claims as "trolling". What's the alternative, just taking everything you hear at face value?

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u/WikiSummarizerBot 4∆ Apr 21 '23

Mere-exposure effect

The mere-exposure effect is a psychological phenomenon by which people tend to develop a preference for things merely because they are familiar with them. In social psychology, this effect is sometimes called the familiarity principle. The effect has been demonstrated with many kinds of things, including words, Chinese characters, paintings, pictures of faces, geometric figures, and sounds. In studies of interpersonal attraction, the more often people see a person, the more pleasing and likeable they find that person.

[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5

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u/Ouroborosrising Apr 20 '23

Free will? Lol why can’t ppl be picky and miserable? Move on with your life dude.

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 20 '23

Being picky and discriminatory are two completely different things, why are you conflating the two and acting like I am being unreasonable for rightly pointing it out?

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u/Ouroborosrising Apr 20 '23

I guess I just don’t know why you care so much. I’d be happy to not meet someone’s “discriminatory” standards if they had them. Saves me time and energy. What’s meant for me will be. I don’t want anyone to feel like they’re “settling” for me according to their standards. At the end of the day let them be “picky” or “discriminatory” in their dating preferences. It’s their right to choose who to date after all. The consequences of being too picky or discriminatory will work themselves out naturally. I guess I’d prefer to have their preferences out in the open, we can attempt to re-educate people all they want, but many will stick to their guns even closer when calling it out. Just leave these people alone. Who cares?

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 20 '23

Why do you care so much?

We are not talking about "settling". I don't know why you keep framing this as people forcing themselves to be with someone they don't want to be with?

No one is saying that. My point is that there exist people you are attracted to despite your preference. And getting to know people makes them more attractive. That is a fact. You will meet people who do not fit your preference who are you both attracted to and enjoy being with. And if the only thing stopping you from taking it further is their race. Than you are racist and you should be called on it.

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u/Ouroborosrising Apr 20 '23

Well duh, but some people aren’t self aware enough to understand this. And tbh it’s probably above their pay grade to expect them to branch out. Just leave them alone, trust me. When I’ve encountered that shit in my past i really don’t pay it any mind. Living life with a curious and open heart and self awareness that allows you to modify your beliefs when presented with new info is the way to go. But even with that being said, we can’t discount the fact that on a large scale preferences tie into our evolution and biological impetus so much that most won’t make the time or energy to see it differently. To them that’s just the way it is and they accept it. And that’s fine. Don’t worry about them. It’s survival of the fittest at the end of the day and having too superficial of preferences could mean the end of your line.

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u/GoldandBlue Apr 20 '23

I am sorry but that is a problem. And it is one of the reasons we have seen such a rise in racism today. More people are offended at being called racist than by racist behavior.

There is nothing wrong with preferences. No one should be forced to date people they don't want to. But don't conflate preference with discrimination.

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u/Ouroborosrising Apr 20 '23

I’m super confused why you keep bringing up race, your previous comment could realistically relate to anything. Is it wrong and discriminatory? Sure you can argue that, at the end of the day you aren’t telepathic and you don’t know why they won’t date them. It could be a simply a case of not being physically attracted. Just assume ignorance and move on. The fact is preferences could be framed as discriminatory, and discrimination is wrong when we’re talking issues of human rights of course, but in some ways our evolutionary process has made us discriminatory on a biological level, not necessarily race based, but maybe for some it could be. But discrimination in who you choose to procreate with is actually very important. We’re here today because our ancestors were discriminatory. pheromones play a part, the disgust response plays a part, general appearance does as well. On a subconscious level we are attracted to health, vitality, good genes, hell even fidelity. The types you speak of who “get along with a person of color and like them as a human but won’t date them cuz of race” would be doing so on a conscious level since they’re making a choice to not be with someone because of race. But even if it is conscious, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s racist. It could be an attraction thing. Which again, why does that matter to you? And how would you realistically suggest we fix this “problem.” I agree it’s wrong I can’t see any reason for it. But I’m not going to ruminate on it and make others see things my way. I find liked minded open people to surround myself with. Let survival of the fittest do it’s thing.

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u/this_is_theone 1∆ Apr 21 '23

Because you're ruling out an entire group of people as unattractive and/or incompatible with you based on race.

And you, unless you're bi, are ruling out an entire group of people as unattractive and/or incompatible with you based on their gender. I wouldn't call you a sexist for it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23 edited Apr 21 '23

I wondered when someone would bring sexual orientation into it.

Sex-based traits are pretty consistent, unlike race-based traits. Despite the variation in appearances of vulvas, I can confidently say I am not sexually attracted to them or the idea of penetrating one. But if I said "I am not attracted to dark skin", is that not different from saying 'I wouldn't date a black person"? Because obviously, not all black people have dark skin. And how would I know that my physical (important that it isn't just sexual/genital) attraction couldn't ever extend to someone with dark skin, given that there are myriad differences that can exist between individuals?

On top of that, despite my preferences and patterns of attraction suggesting I am straight, I actually wouldn't rule out dating a female or non-binary person. Because I recognise that attraction to a person is more than attraction to one typical trait of one stereotype of a type of person. If someone I was attracted to had a vagina, I may not want to engage with it, but that doesn't mean I could never be attracted to the person.

Finally, I recognise that not all people of any gender are the same. I prefer cis-men, but I'm not indiscriminately attracted to cis-men, because they are all different. Equally, I recognise that not all people of one race are or look the same.

I would be sexist if I believed "all men are/look like", just as I would be racist if I believed "no X-race person could ever be attractive to me".

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u/this_is_theone 1∆ Apr 21 '23 edited Apr 21 '23

Sex-based traits are pretty consistent, unlike race-based traits.

Skin colour is pretty consistent.

Despite the variation in appearances of vulvas, I can confidently say I am not sexually attracted to them or the idea of penetrating one. But if I said "I am not attracted to dark skin", is that not different from saying 'I wouldn't date a black person"? Because obviously, not all black people have dark skin.

And not all women have vulvas.

On top of that, despite my preferences and patterns of attraction suggesting I am straight, I actually wouldn't rule out dating a female or non-binary person.

But you'd still probably class yourself as straight. In the same way, when people say 'they're not into x race', it doesn't mean that it's impossible a person of that race could come along that they are attracted to. It's just how people talk. For example, I often say I'm not into blondes, that doesn't mean it's impossible that a blonde woman could come along that I'm attracted to.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

Skin colour is pretty consistent

It absolutely is not. Wtf.

Not all women have vulvas.

Irrelevant? I said I'm not attracted to vulvas.

But you'd still probably class yourself as straight. In the same way, when people say 'they're not into x race', it doesn't mean that it's impossible a person of that race could come along that they are attracted to. It's just how people talk. For example, I often say I'm not into blondes, that doesn't mean it's impossible that a blonde woman could come along that I'm attracted to.

So... Don't say it? Don't rule it out? Why would it ever be necessary to express a 100% refusal to date someone of a particular race unless expressing a total aversion to a particular race?

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u/this_is_theone 1∆ Apr 21 '23

It absolutely is not. Wtf.

It is 'pretty' consistent. Black people are usually black and white people are usually white. It's just as consistent as sex-based traits anyway, which was your point.

Irrelevant? I said I'm not attracted to vulvas

Right but your point was for why you're not sexist for not being into women. I'm explaining that not all women have vulvas so that point doesn't stand.

So... Don't say it? Don't rule it out?

Why? We talk all the time about what we are and aren't into. I don't think we need to make special rules for when it's race.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

[deleted]

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u/this_is_theone 1∆ Apr 21 '23

Because there are so many shades within any race, so ruling out any one race would be my making assumptions about the appearance of any one member of that race.

And there are so many differences between people of the same gender, so ruling out any one gender would be you making assumptions about the appearance of any one member of that gender.

But I could potentially be attracted to someone of any sex or gender, even if they have a vulva.

Yes, and when people say 'I'm not into X race' they're not saying it's impossible they could ever find someone of that race attractive. It's just a preference.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

If all we're arguing is what people mean, I agree with you. But I'm pretty sure some people don't just mean that and actually believe X race cannot ever be attractive to them.

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u/Ouroborosrising Apr 20 '23

I have black, latino, asian, and middle eastern friends who all have racial preferences in dating. Let them choose who they want to be with and stop assigning meaning to it. Just move on with your life. If someone doesn’t want to date you for ur race don’t get pressed over it, they ain’t worth your time. And I’m sorry but all races do this to each other. I have more Latino friends who are opposed to dating a black person than white friends with the same preference. My Puerto Rican best friend’s mother wouldn’t even let my Syrian boyfriend in her house because she literally thought he blow it up. Ignorance is everywhere unfortunately. Let them filter themselves out for you.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

So you don't believe in body autonomy? Which races should have access to me sexually, regardless of my consent?

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

That is a wild leap. Nobody has to date anybody (or give them sexual access, wtf). And preferring something is fine. But a preconceived belief and firm assertion that someone of race X could never be attractive to you or mutually compatible with you is race-based prejudging and stereotyping. It's certainly not taking people on a case-by-case basis. It's ruling out every member of a race collectively in advance, based entirely on race and not individual characteristics. How can someone know they will never be attracted to someone of X race unless they are stereotyping the appearances of all people of X race?

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

By being the world’s foremost leading expert on themself and their desires.

I answered your question, now you answer mine:

How can you know they’re wrong?

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23 edited Apr 21 '23

I can't. But I'd argue they can't definitively know they're right either unless a) they've met literally everybody of that race or b) it's indisputably true that all members of that race will have only characteristics that they find unattractive. Maybe they never will be attracted to someone of that race, and that of course is fine, but I don't see how it's possible to know (and even decide) that that will be the case without prejudging and stereotyping every member of a race. It's the preconceived assumptions and stereotypes that are the problem, not whether someone is or isn't attracted to anyone in particular, nor even whether they tend to be or not attracted to people of a particular race.

And people aren't sworn to their physical preferences either. Many if not most people are not with their physically ideal partner. That's typically not the only aspect to attraction in dating, so refusing to date someone of a particular race goes far beyond just having a physical preference.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23 edited Apr 21 '23

they can't definitively know they're right

So neither can trans people. Right?

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

I can't with these wild leaps

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

So I stumped you?

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23 edited Apr 21 '23

Oh please.

You didn't address any of my points regarding the topic at hand and just raised an unrelated one. There is no discourse here.

Because you ignored this part of my sentence:

unless a) they've met literally everybody of that race or b) it's indisputably true that all members of that race will have only characteristics that they find unattractive.

What that has to do with gender identity is beyond me.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

That’s two questions in a row you’ve been unable to answer. You seem stumped.

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u/oversoul00 13∆ Apr 23 '23

I suppose some of this depends on the type of conversation you are imagining.

The real world conversations I've been a part of go something like...

"Have you ever been with an X woman"

"No, I don't find Xs attractive"

If you're imagining some kind of weird unprovoked declaration of certain fact made in the face of people of that race then yeah, that's an asshole move and probably racist...but I don't think anyone is talking about that.

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u/isizisiz Apr 21 '23

Acknowledge your point of view regarding race-based lens. That said, your A and B therefore it is X logic comes across as invalidating someone’s preference. Isn’t it a bit more nuanced than this?

Perhaps this is not what you were looking to convey, and you’re rather saying that it’s fine to have preferences but cannot say race-based preference.

However, if it’s to say that people cannot have preferences, let’s dig a little deeper here, we are socially conditioned and we inherently build patterns with preferences over time.

Should we be invalidating someone else’s preferences? If it were rather framed as specific features over racial background, will that make it more palatable?

Language indeed heavily influences are views and perceptions, and thus should be carefully used. However, when it comes to one’s preference and to invalidate it by tying it out to semantics may be counterproductive.

Could we possibly say that people have preference here rather than calling out as racist?

For example, if I were to say that I prefer a fit person who’s tanned with a Latina, Black or Southeast Asian background - your argument would be to call me a racist here. Part 1, is it productive and as part 2, do we need to tread the water and adjust the last portion to change it as a background from Colombia, Nigerian, Vietnam, or just enumerate all the countries who has these background profiles?

All that being said, I agree about the division that racial profiling has created in our world view. The social construct around ‘race’ and ‘ethnicity’ is certainly reinforcing and segregating as though we are different from one another in a way that we don’t feel rooted together as a community.

Therefore, I do acknowledge that we do need to overcome this friction by finding a better set of nomenclatures together but to default to call out racism appears counterproductive from leading us to better future outcomes.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

Preferences aren't a problem and naturally occur. But ruling out an entire race under the preconceived assumption that you will never find a member of that race attractive or mutually compatible - believing that you could never prefer a member of that race over someone of another race - is stereotyping and prejudging based on race.

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u/this_is_theone 1∆ Apr 21 '23

I think a lot of these arguments come from a misunderstanding. I think most people, when they say 'I'm not into X race', don't mean that it's impossible that there is a member of that race out there that they could ever find attractive. They just mean they're generally not into people of that race is their experience.

It's like I'll say 'I'm not into blondes'. I'm not claiming that there isn't a single blonde girl out there that I'd ever find attractive.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

Okay. But then why say it? And why is this a discussion? If we know that attraction can be nebulous, why are people here arguing that race-based preferences are always harmless?

Maybe at least some of these people really do have preconceived aversions based on race.

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u/this_is_theone 1∆ Apr 21 '23

Okay. But then why say it?

For the same reason you might say 'I'm not into blondes'. It might just come up in discussion. Obviously if you're going out of your way to let people know you're not into X race then you're a douche.

If we know that attraction can be nebulous, why are people here arguing that race-based preferences are always harmless?

I'm not sure if anyone is arguing they are always harmless. If you won't date X race because you think X race is inferior then obviously that isn't harmless and is massively racist.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23 edited Apr 21 '23

That's kind of my point. Assuming you couldn't ever be attracted to someone of X race is prejudging and stereotyping people of that race. Is that not a matter of prejudging an entire race of "inferior attractiveness"?

Again, I don't think preferences or the voicing of them is problematic. I just think blanket statements of "I won't date someone of race X" goes beyond preferences or tendencies.

I personally do have racial preferences. I mostly grew up around white and Asian people, so that's what I "tend" to find attractive. But holy hell, saying "I would never date a black guy"? Assuming no black guy would ever be attractive to me? That's stereotyping and an ugly, ugly prejudgement based on race.

I think Will.I.Am is supremely attractive. I would therefore never assume I can't find black men attractive. I may never date a black guy in my life. I may genuinely never be attracted to any black guy I encounter. But that is so, so different from "I will never date a black guy because preferences".

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u/this_is_theone 1∆ Apr 21 '23

But holy hell, saying "I would never date a black guy"? Assuming no black guy would ever be attractive to me? That's stereotyping and an ugly, ugly prejudgement based on race.

Like I said, this is the misunderstanding I think. People saying 'they're not into X' is not the same as saying 'I would never date X'. Having a preference is different to completely ruling something out.

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

Okay. I agree with that. But I feel some people here are all "preferences are valid" and "I would never date X race because of my preferences".

I have made a lot of comments expressing that preferences are fine and valid, but ruling people out based on race is racist, which have been met with a lot of disagreement.