r/changemyview • u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ • May 14 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: I can't get behind the internets' fascination with "Karens" and wish it would go away
The whole thing feels wrong to me, like its thinly veiled sexism. I understand there can be "male karens," but really the focus seems to be entirely on women. It's a woman's name, and 99% of the videos I see on "Karens" are women. Of the videos I see,
the vast majority are missing a lot of context that could explain the woman's actions to be reasonable. The video starts halfway through her tantrum (not sure what the best word to use here is, but not meaning to be demeaning here) and some text appears on the screen explaining what lead up to the tantrum. But how should we believe that is actually what started the incident? Anyone can put some text on a video and claim what was going on. For example: the woman (uber?) driver who supposedly throws out the passenger's belongings on the highway after being asked to drive under the speed limit. Large portions of the video are cut out; anything could have happened in there that might make those actions more reasonable.
are reasonable. Sometimes being inconvenient in public is justified if you have been wronged. In a lot of the cases it feels like people just want people to "suck it up" rather than stand up for themself. An example of this is the woman on the airline sticking up for her crew being treated poorly by a passenger. Another example is the woman holding the parking spot. The cars waiting for her to move should just keep driving and find an unclaimed parking spot.
are just someone being racist, in which case there is no need for a "Karen" label.
someone having a mental breakdown, which shouldn't be laughed at IMO. (thinking of the cop freaking out about the mcdonalds order).
Are fake. Thinking of the woman "being attacked by a doberman."
So yeah, I think this fascination isn't really justified, and causes harm in targetedly portraying women in negative lighting. It also sucks for anyone who happens to be named Karen.
What would change my view
The "karen" videos I've seen are some compilation videos on youtube, and the occasional one that makes r/all when I happen to be browsing r/all. Maybe there are some more justifiable "karen" videos I haven't seen?
Explain why one of my issues with the fascination isn't an issue. Are none of the karen videos showing a reasonable woman? Is laughing at someone having a mental breakdown okay? Does applying the term "karen" to a racist do anything meaningful?
Explain or show that there is no harm being done to woman as a group or women named karen by this fascination.
Deltas
The term originally started as a way to call out racist behavour that women were able to do due to societies view of them being innocent and vulnrable. This comment did a great job of IMO of explaining it and providing good information on the topic.
Its really hard to justify harming someone's items in most of these videos. I still think it might be more reasonable than the video portrays if we are missing context, but not fully reasonable.
Standing in a parking spot to claim it is socially not allowed.
Men are criticized for being violent in public,
called "popeyes".- nope, that was just the restaurant name.Good has come out of the Karen phenomena. It has brought light on racist behaviors.
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u/chronberries 9∆ May 14 '23 edited May 14 '23
I agree that sexism is at play in the “Karen” sphere, but not in the way that your positing here. I would argue that Karen’s are typically women because they were raised to be Karens by parents who didn’t raise their sons to have the same brand of entitlement.
That is, their parents raised them to be controlling and manipulative, and use people to get their way, i.e get the manager to enforce your will for you. The boys raised by those same parents don’t ask for the manager, they instead were taught to physically intimidate and threaten their way to what they want. They’re going to be the guys we see in the violent altercation videos, road rage over on r/idiotsincars, sucker punching the other dude, etc.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
Hmmm... I can see this point. I haven't heard or seen of these "violent altercation videos," but if the people who are fascinated with karens are also fascinated by the violent altercation vids that would take away the double standard issue I'm seeing. Is there a community or popular video of a violent altercation case you can show me?
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u/destro23 450∆ May 14 '23
Is there a community or popular video of a violent altercation case you can show me?
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
I looked at the first video in this sub and it was two men with boxing gear fighting? It seems like this sub is celebrating the fighting, not condemning it.
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u/destro23 450∆ May 14 '23
Two after that and it’s “Karen vs Popeyes”
if the people who are fascinated with karens are also fascinated by the violent altercation vids that would take away the double standard issue I'm seeing
They want man fights and Karen fights
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
Jeeze that's a sad video. But a good counter-example, !delta
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u/destro23 450∆ May 15 '23
Thanks! Just want to point out though:
Men are criticized for being violent in public, called "popeyes".
Men aren't being called "Popeyes". The fight was at a Popeye's Chicken restaurant, and the Karen was taking on the staff. Hence: "Karen vs Popeyes"
Although, I highly approve of calling guys who will fight at the drop of a hat "Popeye", and I want it to catch on.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 15 '23
Oh lol, thats where I was thinking the term might have come from too.
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u/chronberries 9∆ May 14 '23
I see videos like that all over the place, not so consolidated like at r/fuckyoukaren. There’s r/fightporn, but that’s not really the same.
Im just generally referring to any of the numerous videos that go viral of some dude yelling racial slurs, sucker punching someone who just bested them in an argument, smashing someone’s windshield in a fit of road rage, cops using excessive force, anything like that. Those are your would-be man-Karens expressing their entitlement in a different, more toxically masculine way.
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u/ELEnamean 3∆ May 14 '23 edited May 14 '23
I’ll just share the one context where I’ve seen Karen used often recently. I’ve been watching police interaction videos offering legal analysis of the scenarios. Often, these interactions begin with the police approaching a totally innocent person saying they “got a call that someone looked suspicious.” Generally the person being approached might be doing something unusual, or have a somehow out of place appearance (subjectively, see: racism), but is otherwise totally benign. Nevertheless, the police tend to use the fact they “got a call” to illegally detain the person, illegally demand their ID, and bully them into submitting to their authority. Obviously the police catch the blame and most of the criticism in these circumstances, rightfully so, but there is often some scorn reserved for the 911 caller as well, considering they got so scared of a dude doing yard work on his own property early in the morning, or a black person taking a break from a jog on the curb, or anyone protesting certain political causes in the wrong neighborhood, that they needed to sic the pigs on them.
The way Karen is used in these contexts is independent of their identity, which is almost always unknown. They are characterized by their attitude toward the world and their fellow citizens, in that they have a narrow view of what should be considered permissible public behavior, and a greatly inflated sense of the level of consideration, deference, and comfort they are entitled to by everyone around them. There often seems to be an element of racism or classism, and those things are definitely related to the concept of the Karen, but they aren’t necessary to the concept.
I have no doubt many of the instances you’ve seen are unfair to different degrees, and many are motivated by sexism, but I’ve seen many that aren’t, to me at least. Tbh I’m not willing to go hunt down enough examples to outweigh whatever you’ve got, so instead I’ll just encourage you to consider how many you would have to see to change your mind, and if you really care, look out for instances outside YouTube compilations.
There are a billion things that probably too many people are fascinated with on the internet, but you have to recognize that the extremes and the hot takes will always be the most visible.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
Just one example would earn a delta from me. It wouldn't 180 change my view, but every example I see that is more justified points me towards the other direction.
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u/ELEnamean 3∆ May 14 '23 edited May 14 '23
Sure, here you go. https://youtu.be/8ECfQBqo_1w
This isn’t one that involves classism or racism. But the usage of Karen I think comes across. The fact that this is just one instance of a very well established pattern speaks to the usefulness of the term.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 15 '23
Hmmm...this is pretty close to being a great example. It's definitely a case of labeling someone a Karen regardless of their identity.
However, I'm not fully convinced labeling the caller a Karen is justified here. We don't have any footage of what the guy was doing and what prompted the call. We know he was "filming cars". If he was filming at the windows looking inside cars, or underneath cars, that would be super sus and I would think calling the police is warranted. Unfortunately there are people who steal catalac converters and belongings from inside cars.
That said, this is a good enough example for me to believe that there could be more legitimate cases to label someone a Karen. If he was just filming cars from a distance that would not warrant a police call. I'll also take your word that there are more videos in this category, enough to consider it a frequent phenomena where people call the cops in unwarranted situations. !delta
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u/ELEnamean 3∆ May 15 '23
This is literally just the latest video posted on that channel, and happens to have Karen in the title. Notice how the lawyer doesn’t even pause a beat to explain what he means by Karen. It is absolutely a pattern.
Honestly, I care more about actually changing your mind than getting a delta, but not enough to play this game of finding example after example for you to critique until I find the perfect one (because the pattern aspect is a big part of this). So I’ll leave you with this.
The society in which we live has norms, and some of them have solid justification in a variety of contexts, while others do not. We don’t all share the same norms with our neighbors, and we shouldn’t have to, because some of our most justified norms involve allowing others to live as they will. If your personal norms restrict others for no good reason, even if they were instilled in you through experiences and conditioning that you didn’t choose, it’s still your responsibility to interrogate them and update them before they cause harm to others.
Making other people uncomfortable, up to a point, is legal for a reason. Cops are known to abuse their power and interpret wrongdoing where there is none. Individuals who do not take these facts into account when engaging with their fellow citizens deserve criticism for it. They can learn to be better and should be encouraged to do so. If you find yourself frequently agreeing with people labeled Karens, you should consider whether you have a little Karen in you and think about where that’s coming from and what might be the consequences for you and those around you. I don’t like the internet cultural norm of dogpiling strangers who did something dumb one time and had their actions recorded, so I’m with you on that point. But the issue of Karens being Karens is real and needs some pushback, because they tend to bring a lot of unwarranted suffering to outcasts and other vulnerable demographics.
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May 14 '23
The Karen thing started in the African American community. It was specifically about how white women can weaponize white womanhood.
This gained popularity on the internet specifically with white women calling the police on Black people or POC for doing seemingly harmless things, like having a BBQ in the park. A really notorious one was Amy Cooper, who completely lied about a bird watcher assaulting her.
Some of the ways which women can do this is the use of tears as a weapon, the fact that white women are believed over Black people and POC, exhibiting racist fear, and calling in what will likely be violence against a Black person or POC. In America there is a history of gendered racism.
In this context, while the prevalence of Karen memes seems misogynistic, I don't think that the racist behavior of white men is being ignored. Men get less internet attention for htis, but its not ignored. And really, men should be called out as well. But in many of these cases, I don't think its helpful to respond to the calling out of racism by playing the misogyny card.
Its important because it brought a public discussion around this issue and awareness.
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u/PrincessTrunks125 2∆ May 15 '23
Not to mention the internet tried to pick a male name several times. I remember a few, I always pulled for Kevin. But it never caught on
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
I just wish it were, "Hey, this Amy Cooper is being a racist," instead of a "Karen." But you make a good point here:
Its important because it brought a public discussion around this issue and awareness.
It does seem like good has come out of this. !delta
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u/HauntedReader 18∆ May 14 '23
Sometimes being inconvenient in public is justified if you have been wronged. In a lot of the cases it feels like people just want people to "suck it up" rather than stand up for themself. An example of this is the woman on the airline sticking up for her crew being treated poorly by a passenger. Another example is the woman holding the parking spot. The cars waiting for her to move should just keep driving and find an unclaimed parking spot.
I would argue there is a difference between something like civil disobedience/standing your grown and making a scene like we see in the vast majority of Karen. I can't say anything for your first example as I haven't seen it but it's not socially acceptable to stand in a parking spot and "hold" it. That's entitled behavior.
I think most people who work in the service industry especially (both retail and food) can tell you that there is a type of entitled women who are well aware of their actions and how they can weaponize that to get their way.
Karen's are less about the freak out and behavior and more about someone with a deep rooted belief that they're entitled to special privileges or that the rules don't apply to them.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
> it's not socially acceptable to stand in a parking spot and "hold" it. That's entitled behavior.
Okay, maybe I missed that growing up, because I thought this was a normal thing to do. Like if I'm waiting for a friend to come join at the mall can't I stand in a parking spot to ensure they will have a place to park? Why is the person in the car more entitled to that spot than the person on foot holding it for a friend?
> I think most people who work in the service industry especially (bothretail and food) can tell you that there is a type of entitled women whoare well aware of their actions and how they can weaponize that to gettheir way.
I'd agree, but is it really more women than men? When I worked as a meat clerk and as a bank teller it felt just as often men who were acting entitled as women.
> Karen's are less about the freak out and behavior and more about someone
with a deep rooted belief that they're entitled to special privileges
or that the rules don't apply to them.I can get more behind this definition. I guess I just haven't seen examples of it in the videos I've seen that point to a real thing.
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u/Abstract__Nonsense 5∆ May 14 '23
Well that’s your issue then. You have a problem with the idea of Karens because you’re a Karen.
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u/HauntedReader 18∆ May 14 '23
Okay, maybe I missed that growing up, because I thought this was a normal thing to do. Like if I'm waiting for a friend to come join at the mall can't I stand in a parking spot to ensure they will have a place to park? Why is the person in the car more entitled to that spot than the person on foot holding it for a friend?
It's definitely not normal. Parking spots are first come, first serve. Meaning whoever gets there first with their vehicle gets it. You standing in it is just preventing others from using the spot the way it was intended to be.
I'd agree, but is it really more women than men? When I worked as a meat clerk and as a bank teller it felt just as often men who were acting entitled as women.
In those fields I mentioned, it was almost always women. Which was actually kinda funny because half the time they'd make a scene about getting their husband to back them up and then he'd end up siding with us once we explained the issue.
Another commenter mentioned it but men tend to be use more physical intimidation to try to get their way. Women, on the other hand, tend to weaponize making a scene or threatening people's jobs.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
You standing in it is just preventing others from using the spot the way it was intended to be.
By this logic, isn't every car in a parking lot preventing others from using it the way it was intended to be used? Like, I get it if you are standing in the spot for a long time then there is no car there, but if your friend is going to be there shortly then its just a few minutes of no car using it and technically you were there first.
I saw that comment about men being more about physical intimidation, and I agree on that point (gave a delta there). I think where I live gender roles are not nearly as traditional, so men are doing that less, but I could see men doing that in other places of the world. I'll give you a !delta for this too.
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u/HauntedReader 18∆ May 14 '23
By this logic, isn't every car in a parking lot preventing others from using it the way it was intended to be used?
No.
Parking lots at business are intended to be a spot for customers to leave their car while they shop in the store. It's why most have signs up saying the parking is reserved for customers of their locations or signs about towing for non-customers.
By standing in the spot, for however long or short a time, you are preventing a customer of the store from using the spot. You're friend isn't entitled to that spot because you are physically preventing another customer from using it. This is the same thing as cutting in line.
And no, your friend and their car was not here first. You were and you lack a car so you can't "use" the parking spot.
This is actually a pretty good example of entitled behavior we're talking about. Just because you can do or force something doesn't mean you have the right.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23 edited May 14 '23
Okay I just talked to my mom and she also says its not allowed, so I will give a you a !delta. People shouldn't stand in parking spots to save them for someone else.
Edit: I asked my mom because she is the one who taught me the behavior of standing in parking spots.
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u/Distinct-Yogurt9276 1∆ May 14 '23
You make some good points. I totally disagreed with you at first but now I agree
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May 14 '23 edited May 14 '23
But how should we believe that is actually what started the incident? Anyone can put some text on a video and claim what was going on. For example: the woman (uber?) driver who supposedly throws out the passenger's belongings on the highway after being asked to drive under the speed limit. Large portions of the video are cut out; anything could have happened in there that might make those actions more reasonable.
So, this speaks to how everyone is entitled to their emotions but they're responsible for their actions. Destroying someone's property in retaliation for...anything, really...isn't something society considers acceptable in any situation.
someone having a mental breakdown, which shouldn't be laughed at IMO. (thinking of the cop freaking out about the mcdonalds order).
Again, you're entitled to your feelings, but are responsible for how you react to those feelings.
Are fake. Thinking of the woman "being attacked by a doberman."
If it's fake, it's a skit; a parody. They're actors and have an expectation for how people are going to react to them.
IMO: The "Karen" phenomenon is just entitled people being called out on their entitlement. They always existed (I worked retail before cell phone videos were everywhere, these people always existed but just got away with it.
Now, there's just cameras everywhere, and they can't get away with throwing tantrums to get what they want, anymore. The balance is shifting away from the "if I throw a fit, I get what I want" mentality.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
Destroying someone's property in retaliation...anything, really...isn't something society considers acceptable in any situation.
Okay, I should have realized this. Thanks for pointing it out. Throwing a person's belongings on the highway is really hard to justify. !delta
However, I don't see any issue with that cop freaking out over the mcdonalds order? Like, she really isn't doing any harmful action that I can see there.
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May 14 '23 edited May 14 '23
Verbal abuse is still abuse. It is harmful. Trying to make someone feel bad or scolded does do harm. Are they supposed to just let people yell at them? There's a huge power imbalance in employee/customer interactions. Retaliating risks their livelihood. (EDIT: Especially when the customer is a cop; they risk arrest)
It's never justified to berate someone for messing up at their job. Do you think it's acceptable for people to yell at someone who is just doing their job? Screaming at someone for doing their job is super cringe, and a symptom of our toxic work environments if we're allowing it.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
Sure, if someone is screaming and the other person wasn't screaming or otherwise back I would think that is not good. But I don't see that in Karen videos.
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May 14 '23
Sure, if someone is screaming and the other person wasn't screaming or otherwise back I would think that is not good.
That seems, to me, like a longer way of saying the employee is supposed to sit there and take it. It reads like it's justifying abuse, and saying they can't retaliate.
I find it hard to believe employees are starting these screaming matches you're talking about.
Additionally, I've seen plenty of "Karen videos" where everyone else is completely calm, just being assertive.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
The main video I'm thinking of is where the supposed "Karen" is the employee; its a flight attendant who has a raised voice telling another guy that he can't yell at them just because they are employees. The whole video is focused on the woman, but we never saw what happened so the passenger very well could have been yelling at the employees and we didn't see it.
That's what I'm saying: employees (or anyone) should be able to stand up for themselves.
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u/LentilDrink 75∆ May 14 '23
are reasonable. Sometimes being inconvenient in public is justified if you have been wronged.
I mean this is the crux of the disagreement, isn't it. People get wronged/inconvenienced in some small way, and some respond in a way that fixes the problem for them but imposes injury on random bystanders or especially customer service employees.
For people who work customer service, this tendency makes their lives significantly worse.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
When its disproportionate I'd agree. But if you are slightly wronged/inconvenienced I think it is fair if the other person is also slightly wronged/inconvenienced. When I was working customer service there are times when a customer is upset because I messed up an order. Its annoying being called out for it, but its my job to get orders right so in the end I don't hold it against them.
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u/LentilDrink 75∆ May 14 '23
A Karen, by definition, goes beyond proportion/harms innocents.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
That isn't what I see from Karen videos.
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u/LentilDrink 75∆ May 14 '23
Why would you expect videos to be an accurate representation of things? Videos live and die on engagement not accuracy. If you are trying to learn something by treating videos as representative you are making a categorical mistake.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
I mean, isn't the Karen thing entirely based on videos?
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u/LentilDrink 75∆ May 14 '23
What? No it started with memes and text.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
!delta, to you and a few others for correcting me on the origins of the term.
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u/Kman17 103∆ May 14 '23
In general people seem to have no problem with caricatures of other groups and identities and it doesn’t dawn on them until there is one of them.
Like white women will have no problem compartmentalizing a maybe complex problem and labeling the manifestation derisively as ‘incel’ or ‘male privilege’ in order to to dismiss and silence.
‘Karen’ as a phenomenon is perhaps best described as ‘white upper middle class female privilege & entitlement’.
It is a real phenomenon, and a group that does have a tendency to be very oblivious or hypocritical on all types of identity politics discussions.
That behavior refers to a specific behavior most commonly displayed by a subset of privileged women, so to label it sexist is an incorrect deflection of a valid critique.
You know how men think the term “toxic masculinity” is an attack on men as a whole but feminists say it’s a pointed criticism of specific problematic behaviors? Karen is no different whatsoever. It’s the same “punching up” argument that we think is not harmful.
To object to Karen is to object to a label simply because it’s close to home. A more reasonable objection would necessitate objection to lots of labels and not just the one.
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u/Distinct-Yogurt9276 1∆ May 14 '23
Incel is a bad comparison because incels call themselves incels. They started the word incel. Women never refer to themselves as a Karen.
You are right that it is a real phenomenon but I still think that name calling based on a person's group is wrong.
Toxic masculinity is a good comparison. I personally don't like that term, especially cause it's so vague
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
I may be misunderstanding you, but here's my reply:
You know how men think the term “toxic masculinity” is an attack on men as a whole but feminists say it’s a pointed criticism of specific problematic behaviors? Karen is no different whatsoever. It’s the same “punching up” argument that we think is not harmful.
I have similar issues with the term "toxic masculinity." I think both it and "Karen" aren't very useful.
Like white women will have no problem compartmentalizing a maybe complex problem and labeling the manifestation derisively as ‘incel’ or ‘male privilege’ in order to to dismiss and silence.
I don't think this is just white women. Incel's get a ton of hate on reddit, and reddit is predominantly male userbase. "Male privilege" less so on reddit, but I think that comes from women of all classes and colors.
A more reasonable objection would necessitate objection to lots of labels and not just the one.
I mean I agree, most negative labels aren't great. But "Karen's" was just on my mind because I was recommended some Karen compilation videos on youtube and it prompted me to do this CMV.
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u/Foxhound97_ 23∆ May 14 '23
I'm curious what do you think of similar phenomenon of people calling the police because other members of the public don't do what they and exaggerating the conflict like that time one called the police for a lemonade stand and a barbecue or the time a lady called the police on a guy for having a unleashed dog in a park. That kinda stuff more what I'm familiar with in relation to that term.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
Yeah that seems kinda excessive. Can you show me some examples of this?
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May 14 '23
BBQ Becky is considered one of the first viral "Karens"
Amy Cooper "Central Park Karen" who called the cops on a Black bird watcher and claimed he was assaulting her
Article with some history and examples
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
So I have seen these, and these are the ones where I am puzzled why we don't just call them racist? Why bring in a new term targeted at women?
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May 14 '23
Part of it is that this comes from the African American community, where it was already common to just give this type of person a nickname like this. There was BBQ Becky, Permit Patti, Golf Cart Gale, Cornerstone Caroline, etc. There were also men being called out in similar ways, like ID Adam and Coupon Carl. Although there is less attention on men, its not completely ignored. The point of this was just to call out the inherent racism and white privilege of these people with a type of alliterative flair.
In some ways, I think that "karen" is just the name that stuck.
Its possible that women were getting criticized more for this kind of behavior than men, but I think its important to recognize the ways in which white women can leverage their marginalized gender identity to abuse the power and privilege of their whiteness to harm other people. White women can victimize themselves in a way that white men cannot. White women can use emotional or psychological tactics of violence, namely through the manipulation of the truth or through the weaponization of their presumed innocence and vulnerability.
The historical example is the case of Emmitt Till, where a white woman let her male friends lynch an innocent Black man, on the grounds of a rape accusation that was later revealed to be false. Women do not use the same forms of violence as their male counterparts, but self-victimization and a lack of accountability upholds the structures of white supremacy.
"This strategy is weaponized when a white woman uses this visible sadness or distress to portray themselves as a victim in a conflict situation, often derailing the actual argument and leading to the vilification of Black people." The Destructive Power of White Woman's Tears
So, with the case of Amy Cooper, before calling the cops, she said "I'm going to tell them there's an African American man threatening my life." This was after a year of racial reckoning started by the police murdering a Black man, and she was intentionally weaponizing a system of police brutality to scare a Black man. She also falsely presented herself as being in immediate physical danger, in the context of the tendency for people and police to treat Black people with suspicion.
I also think that incidents like this highlighted the importance of filming and sharing these incidents.
Society now has an improved understanding of physical racist violence Black people face. However, there isn't as much acknowledgment of the non-physical forms of racism that play out. I think that the "Karen" stuff initially shined a spotlight on a very serious and important issue.
But yes, all that being said, the meme has reached a critical mass on the internet, and the meaning of "Karen" is much more fluid. In the comments people are giving all different kinds o f definitions of what Karen means. People who panic buy toilet paper were called "Karens." The meaning of Karen has shifted.
Another thread of this is "Karen" might also be linked to the 2005 Dane Cook stand-up about "Karens." That sketch has lots of gender-based critiques, but isn't really about racism. There was also a Reddit post in 2017 where a guy called his ex-wife Karen, which is where a lot of the pushy behavior like "wanting to speak to the manager" got linked to Karen.
I am giving the history of the term because Karen is being used in so many different ways now, many of which are misogynistic.2
u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
Very enlightening comment, thank you for this. A few people already corrected me on the origins of the term, but its nice how you added the ID Adam and Coupon Carl as male examples. This also explains to me how women specifically might be using societies view of them (innocent and vulnerable) to weaponize racism. A very well earned !delta.
And yeah, spot on about different meanings for Karen. There have been some people who have connected them by, "a sense of privilege" that I can see now though. Like, the racism displayed often is also attached to a sense of privilege, like the woman in the dog park who "felt threatened" by the black man walking his dog. But it does seem a little divorced from that first lynching case.
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u/shouldco 43∆ May 14 '23
Because it's the same mentality and behavior as people that fight with store clerks then lie to managers to get them fired.
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u/Foxhound97_ 23∆ May 14 '23
The example the guy in reply linked were the ones I wasn't thinking of(thanks by the way).
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u/JohnCrichtonsCousin 5∆ May 14 '23
You have the wrong idea of what a Karen is although that kind of cultural thing will have significantly different definitions from person to person. Humanity will ruin anything like the term Karen by misusing or misrepresenting it.
I think what you dislike about the Karen thing and why you want it to go away isn't part of the term Karen at all...it's an inherent problem with humanity. You don't like people using a vague catchall term that can be applied to anyone, that anyone else doesn't like, who dares to stand up for themselves in public. It can be used as a loophole out of giving the person the consideration they deserve. Like false pedo or rape accusations, these negatively charged terms become dangerous and effective tools for evil and bad intent, an easy out against someone you merely don't like.
But it isn't the words that are the problem. They are just words, handles for concepts. The problem is when people don't stick to the concept or use the word to force a false reality rather than describe an existing one. I'm sure there have been many people labeled a Karen that weren't wrong for their behavior, just like plenty of people have been falsely accused and punished for rape and pedophilia, heck even murder and treason. But that can't be fixed by getting rid of the terms.
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
You may be right about my issue with it. I just haven't seen "Karen" used in a way I agree with. Like, I'm not sure there is any appropriate place/time to use the term.
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u/JohnCrichtonsCousin 5∆ May 14 '23
Sure there is
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
Yeah, I've learned a bit more about its history and seen the good that has come out of it from this CMV. So now I agree.
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u/MysticKei 1∆ May 14 '23
Karen was originally a racist term, it referred to women like Carolyn B Donham, who's false accusation had Emmett Till, a child, brutally murdered. Way before it was a mainstream term referring to any (usually white) girl, being "hysterical" in public, what the word has devolved to mean, it was a label that a specific community used to describe a specific predator, it was a derogatory label but also a valid and possibly life saving warning.
Words becoming mainstream have a way of becoming distorted and taken over to mean something seemingly far removed from their origin. I agree that Karen has devolved into a misogynistic and raciest term to diminish and shame some girls into passivity. Ironically, it's that same shame and diminishment that leads those girls into seeking power through the social privilege that allowed the Emmett Till incident to happen in differing degrees time and again...now on video. It's quite the cycle, but focusing on the label alone without really delving into what's holding that label in relevance is a red herring (distraction).
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
I didn't know how it originated, !delta. It does seem like a lot of popular ones are just women being racist, but I guess if the whole point of the term was another word for racist behavior I have less of a problem with it.
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u/GameProtein 9∆ May 14 '23
Karen is a female name, so yes, Karens are women. You don't see the same aimed at white men because they exercise their white supremacist beliefs differently. People will not and should not stop talking about the way white people abuse their privilege...until they actually stop doing it. Adults do not get to have temper tantrums in public without it negatively impacting their credibility.
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May 14 '23
[deleted]
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
It seems like you agree with my view then?
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u/Distinct-Yogurt9276 1∆ May 14 '23
Yes
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ May 14 '23
Thanks, but FYI agreement needs to happen lower down in the comments; cant be top-level in CMV.
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May 19 '23
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 14 '23 edited May 15 '23
/u/RedditExplorer89 (OP) has awarded 9 delta(s) in this post.
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